Charizard X completely destroys most electric teams. All those calcs were done with a non-boosted zard. After +1 it can literally shred electric. The best way to stop it would be a t-wave thundurus followed by ampharos. But should electric really be sacrficing 2 mons to bring it down. It also severely restricts electric's teambuilding. The is probably Char X's biggest threat. Most other types can handle it and it does give flying a way to check all the ice spam. I don't believe the issue is as black and white as you are making it out to be. The real question is how big of a restriction does it place on the metagame. I feel like it should not be banned, because it is a very useful mon that can be played around. Now granted it is EXTREMELY versatile. It has options such as Roost/Dragon dance EQ to handle heatran, and many more features. But then again, we haven't banned greninja yet and that is a versatile mon. I really think this is a beauty of monotype, you have to learn how to play major threats. Thanks for your time.
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@ Mega Sableye, I think Mega Sab is easily too powerful for Dark, considering Dark doesn't necessarily NEED Mega Sab for anything, as for ghost, I could see it going either way, considering Mega Sab gives Ghost nice Knock Off protection.
@ Charizard X
Ok so like I'm confused, since when do we ban things because ONE type is having trouble with it? It's a monster, sure, but its a manageable monster. Water has problems (by problems I mean a lot of problems) with dealing with Breloom and Kyurem-B, but that doesn't mean they should be banned. Every type has something that destroys it, you just have to play around it. As for Bug and Grass dealing with Char X, if it was such a prevalent problem, wouldn't there be more outcry about it?
The thing with Kyurem-W and Skymin is that it's so good on a number of different types, and practically alienates fighting, considering a base 120 Air Slash creams the common HO fighting team, and even if it lives a hit, there's a 60% chance that you can't even retaliate. That aside, these monsters are broken, Anttya posted a great post showing you why.
Personally, I don't want to hear about water having problems with that annoying mega-swampert running around. Water was already an annoying type to fight without it's own personal excadrill to fight with too. (Yes there were other swift swimmers on water but not even kingdra is as annoying as mega swampert cause of all that bulk).
Our current topics that I've read (even if they are case closed it seems): Zekrom, Kyurem-w, Shaymin-Sky, Mega-Gallade, Mega-Medicham, Mega Charizard-X, and Mega Sableye.
Zekrom
I agree that bringing an uber down could enhance the metagame to an extent as it may have helped the metagame when it was done so for Kyurem-W and Shaymin-Sky. I would't know though because I wasn't "born" into the old metagame and thus don't know if it was better or not. However, Zekrom is not only untested in monotype, but I have watched a lot of high level ubers replays and it is incredibly powerful. I don't think I would like to see that running around. Again, I am not an oracle and can predict a distant meta if it came to exist, but my first thoughts would be no, sounds like a monster.
Kyurem-W
I don't really have enough experience to comment on this. I can only talk for flying and, well... it is a harsh matchup. If I make a mistake I am in a coffin, if the ice player makes a mistake, there is a bit more recovery that can be had. That being said, I would think that is the way the battle should be expected. Ice is supposed to have an advantage to flying, and kyurem-w doesn't add much to the frying pan in terms of being able to win. I would much rather see a kyurem-w on the opposing team than I would a cloyster. My games usually consist of Articuno tanking kyurem-w and skarm tanking mamoswine, and sometimes articuno can take both of them on. The point is, in the flying versus ice department, i think that is the most ideal disadvantaged matchup I have played, I lose more to neutral and matches that are supposed to favor me haha. I would leave it be or suspect if there is a large amount of grief.
Shaymin-Sky
I have been told of horror stories of getting flinched to death, and when you aren't you are getting destroyed by the seed flare special defense drop or the coverage it gets. It is in ubers so it shouldn't be surprising that this thing does very well on its own. I am assuming grass needed help since it was brought down in the first place, but maybe it is too much for the metagame? I honestly don't know, I have the super bulky pressure birds that can tank and eventually get a hit on that bastard so I don't think so, but once again I am very limited on knowing what it is like for other matchups other than watching my friends fight it. As of now I would leave it. I also haven't seen many posts from grass users so I would be interested to see those.
Mega-Gallade
I have already posted, no need to repeat as I have nothing new to say, but for the sake of you guys going to find it if you care that much, I listed gallade as suspect or leave it.
Mega-Medicham
Same as above.
Mega Charizard-X
I don't know if I can talk much about this one either haha. Mainly because I don't run the common sets you guys are grieving with. However from my experience with charizard-x I get a little excited when I am playing types like grass and bug because I may get to do some sweeping. And I would agree that electric does have trouble with charizard-x because I know it is my only hope when fighting them. I would only like to mention that charizard-x does provide good type synergy with the rest of my birds.
Mega Sableye
I would say after participating in the core challenges and playing more games of my own with flying, I would leave it on both types or suspect them both, as oppose to complex ban. I would repeat what I wrote before on page whatever, but after I tried using ghost and dark for these cores sableye wasn't pulling as much weight as I thought it would (I didn't compete on dark but I did try using a core with mega sableye and I prefered regular old sableye).
General Comments on the Discussion
I have seen a lot of posts that I would argue are looking to save their own type, or enhance, in a sense. Such as the Zekrom talk and a few posts concerning hot topic debates on the bans. Now it would be nice, in my case, that kyurem-black was banned for instance. I am sure I could devise a decent argument to justify that, but ultimately this effects 36 matchups, the dragon and ice matchups against everything else. I have no grounds to state that would be a good idea just because it gives me a hard time. That being said, there are some very good arguments here for pokemon that potentially could be broken and I would've liked to have done suspect tests for the majority to all of these pokemon just for me to have a better idea. The core challenges are nice in a sense to get a taste, but the teams are restricted now to running something else that may not have been desired (the challenge part haha).
Zekrom
I agree that bringing an uber down could enhance the metagame to an extent as it may have helped the metagame when it was done so for Kyurem-W and Shaymin-Sky. I would't know though because I wasn't "born" into the old metagame and thus don't know if it was better or not. However, Zekrom is not only untested in monotype, but I have watched a lot of high level ubers replays and it is incredibly powerful. I don't think I would like to see that running around. Again, I am not an oracle and can predict a distant meta if it came to exist, but my first thoughts would be no, sounds like a monster.
Kyurem-W
I don't really have enough experience to comment on this. I can only talk for flying and, well... it is a harsh matchup. If I make a mistake I am in a coffin, if the ice player makes a mistake, there is a bit more recovery that can be had. That being said, I would think that is the way the battle should be expected. Ice is supposed to have an advantage to flying, and kyurem-w doesn't add much to the frying pan in terms of being able to win. I would much rather see a kyurem-w on the opposing team than I would a cloyster. My games usually consist of Articuno tanking kyurem-w and skarm tanking mamoswine, and sometimes articuno can take both of them on. The point is, in the flying versus ice department, i think that is the most ideal disadvantaged matchup I have played, I lose more to neutral and matches that are supposed to favor me haha. I would leave it be or suspect if there is a large amount of grief.
Shaymin-Sky
I have been told of horror stories of getting flinched to death, and when you aren't you are getting destroyed by the seed flare special defense drop or the coverage it gets. It is in ubers so it shouldn't be surprising that this thing does very well on its own. I am assuming grass needed help since it was brought down in the first place, but maybe it is too much for the metagame? I honestly don't know, I have the super bulky pressure birds that can tank and eventually get a hit on that bastard so I don't think so, but once again I am very limited on knowing what it is like for other matchups other than watching my friends fight it. As of now I would leave it. I also haven't seen many posts from grass users so I would be interested to see those.
Mega-Gallade
I have already posted, no need to repeat as I have nothing new to say, but for the sake of you guys going to find it if you care that much, I listed gallade as suspect or leave it.
Mega-Medicham
Same as above.
Mega Charizard-X
I don't know if I can talk much about this one either haha. Mainly because I don't run the common sets you guys are grieving with. However from my experience with charizard-x I get a little excited when I am playing types like grass and bug because I may get to do some sweeping. And I would agree that electric does have trouble with charizard-x because I know it is my only hope when fighting them. I would only like to mention that charizard-x does provide good type synergy with the rest of my birds.
Mega Sableye
I would say after participating in the core challenges and playing more games of my own with flying, I would leave it on both types or suspect them both, as oppose to complex ban. I would repeat what I wrote before on page whatever, but after I tried using ghost and dark for these cores sableye wasn't pulling as much weight as I thought it would (I didn't compete on dark but I did try using a core with mega sableye and I prefered regular old sableye).
General Comments on the Discussion
I have seen a lot of posts that I would argue are looking to save their own type, or enhance, in a sense. Such as the Zekrom talk and a few posts concerning hot topic debates on the bans. Now it would be nice, in my case, that kyurem-black was banned for instance. I am sure I could devise a decent argument to justify that, but ultimately this effects 36 matchups, the dragon and ice matchups against everything else. I have no grounds to state that would be a good idea just because it gives me a hard time. That being said, there are some very good arguments here for pokemon that potentially could be broken and I would've liked to have done suspect tests for the majority to all of these pokemon just for me to have a better idea. The core challenges are nice in a sense to get a taste, but the teams are restricted now to running something else that may not have been desired (the challenge part haha).
Bulky DD set are rare as hell (coming from experience) and you can always cripple it. Also Charizard X is one of fly's only way to beat electric, don't talk about zapdos because you can easily trick a scarf to it. Also I'd suggest you to stop taking shots at me nobody.
I'd appreciate it if you learned that this isn't Frost and therefore is not the place you go to talk trash. Take your trash talk elsewhere. It got old after the first page. And 'only' ignores the plethora of other dragons available as well as Landorus and Gliscor. Flying doesn't have to have real trouble with any type except ice, it can easily build to beat any other type while still remaining easily viable. 'Easily trick a scarf to it' assumes you don't already know exactly what uses trick/scarf on electric. Its easy to tell.
Guys stap it :[
Anyways, as a Grass user. I can say that Skymin makes my matches very hax filled, and I often find myself winning if I get enough flinches and losing if I don't. There's little to no skill when spamming Air Slash + Seed Flare and switching out if threatened. Like it isn't OP in terms of power, but Serene Grace + Air Slash makes it broken. I can explain in more detail if I had to, but I'll do it later
Deck Skymin. The hax it brings is extremely unhealthy for certain types and it requires no skill to use
Scarf togekiss is the same way. wanna ban that too?lol
Scarf Togekiss doesn't have a 127 speed, and it doesn't have Seed Flare to screw with bulky mons. Seriously, how would you beat it on Water without Sap Sipper Azu? I personally run Mirror Coat Tentacruel, but that's if you don't get flinched. O wait, Scarf Skymin outspeeds Adamand Sand Rush Excadrill as well... so hf trying to revenge kill it. As for fighting, Scarf Terrakion can deal with Scarf Togekiss to an extent, whereas Skymin will outspeed and kill you via Flinch hax.
I have tried plenty of types including grass. I would like to note that while skymin can occasionally destroy teams I don't think it should be suspected. First, take a look at the top of the ladder or the MMC. There are virtually no grass users, because although they have skymin, one can not simply flinch their way through every match. Also compare it to some of the top types in the current metagame. Steel and Flying will not struggle very much with skymin because they resist it so much. A scarf set does also not carry as much strength as you would assume. I have an alt dedicated to grass, and it is very hard to win even with shaymin-s. If it is banned then it will be nearly impossible to run grass. If we are considering stuff that is broken there are much more pressing issues to deal with. Granted it can destroy a fighting team but most people would agree that types just have to play around it.
Things that should be suspected:
Charizard X, Greninja, maybe Mega Sableye although i feel the metagame has sufficiently adapted.
I would also like to see Zekrom given a short test to see how much havoc it would wreak on monotype. It will probably be deemed to strong, but it is really the only thing electric has to look forward to.
Things that should be suspected:
Charizard X, Greninja, maybe Mega Sableye although i feel the metagame has sufficiently adapted.
I would also like to see Zekrom given a short test to see how much havoc it would wreak on monotype. It will probably be deemed to strong, but it is really the only thing electric has to look forward to.
Tbh, just because it isn't in the top 10 doesn't mean it isn't broken. Take Kyurem-W for an example. A majority of people agree that it's broken even though no Ice user has made it to top 10. Also, just because it can't deal with today's most popular types doesn't mean it's not broken. The fact that it can destroy 1-2 types in 10 turns or less just by spamming one move makes it broken. (Does that remind you of Talonflame vs Bug / Grass?) When you say "but most people would agree that types just have to play around it" how would you do that? Sure, Grass had ways to "beat" Talonflame such as Rock Helmet Ferrothorn, but chances are, you're going to lose against it. Not because you played bad, because it's simply impossible against a skilled opponent.
As for Grass being almost impossible. It isn't true. Yes, it'll be a lot harder to use but it's still not nearly impossible. (Anything is possible in Monotype, you just have to be creative enough to find it. That's what makes it so fun.)
Here are some old replays without Skymin
https://www.replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-121916957 Grass vs Fire
https://www.replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-122607329 Grass vs Steel (He got top 10 as well)
https://www.replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-122701493 Grass vs Bug
https://www.replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-122329878 Grass vs Flying (This guy got to top 10 with Flying iirc)
This is all I have (that's half decent) since I'm not an avid replay saver. However, I can say that I've won countless times vs Grass's weaknesses without Skymin.
I agree that it is very possible to win hard matches without skymin, but i don't think it is a pressing issue in the metagame. I understand you can simply spam moves, but it is something teams have to work around. I don't think it is currently playing a huge role in the monotype metagame. I think there are much more pressing threats such as greninja who can come in and completely destroy teams because of its versatility. Once again you just have to be creative enough to think of a solution to fix the threat of skymin.
For fighting, maybe you should try an inner focus lucario.
For fighting, maybe you should try an inner focus lucario.
Hi everybody! I mostly just read up on this thread, and stay out of it, but I guess I can drop my 2 cents if it's worth anything...
As far as Skymin, yes I get that grass is a difficult type to use (I haven't used it myself yet, but have battled it) but all that Skymin really gave grass is an almost-guaranteed hax machine that can make many matches easier. Due to the fact that it can turn a match even with one or two occurences of flinch-hax, I'm a bit surprised that this is really still only being discussed.
Also, a note of mine on Zard x; yes, it may be used 73% of the time over Zard y's 26% (as noted on the usage stats posted earlier somewhere) on flying, but keep in mind it is still somewhat of a guessing game what Charizard may really be until it actually does Mega Evolve. Plus, even if it is revealed as x, then comes the issue of what set it is running (bulky or offense) which then makes status possibly the only answer depending on what it's against. Due to the many defogging options on flying, I wouldn't say rocks are a reliable method of crippling a Charizard.
I'm not saying ban Zard x, but let's at least possibly consider a test in the near future, seeing as flying is arguably already the easiest type to reach team synergy with in mono due to having many options. For Skymin... yeah... ban that!
As far as Skymin, yes I get that grass is a difficult type to use (I haven't used it myself yet, but have battled it) but all that Skymin really gave grass is an almost-guaranteed hax machine that can make many matches easier. Due to the fact that it can turn a match even with one or two occurences of flinch-hax, I'm a bit surprised that this is really still only being discussed.
Also, a note of mine on Zard x; yes, it may be used 73% of the time over Zard y's 26% (as noted on the usage stats posted earlier somewhere) on flying, but keep in mind it is still somewhat of a guessing game what Charizard may really be until it actually does Mega Evolve. Plus, even if it is revealed as x, then comes the issue of what set it is running (bulky or offense) which then makes status possibly the only answer depending on what it's against. Due to the many defogging options on flying, I wouldn't say rocks are a reliable method of crippling a Charizard.
I'm not saying ban Zard x, but let's at least possibly consider a test in the near future, seeing as flying is arguably already the easiest type to reach team synergy with in mono due to having many options. For Skymin... yeah... ban that!
Just out of curiosity, people are really only complaining about the scarf variation of skymin right? Is it possible to just ban it from using scarf? I don't know, just an idea.
Unfortunately smogon tries to avoid complex bans, and to ban it from using scarf is kinda silly to me, but it would solve some problems
Well said ArVaDa-. The first core challenge was designed to promote usage of the Pokemon we were discussing here in the thread, and this will most likely happen again as this thread continues to evolve. Although, for the time being, we will stick to the "challenge" portion. :P
Also, a link for those of you that do not know what the core challenge is: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/monotype-core-ladder-challenge.html
We are currently in challenge #2: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/challenge-2.html
Challenge #3 will be starting today: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/challenge-3.html
As for the recent discussion, I've posted on most of these Pokemon previously, and I have yet to see arguments that change my stance.
Just to summarize
Mega-Charizard-X: Don't ban. We should continue to let the meta evolve around Flying and reassess at a later date.
Mega-Sableye: Type specific ban for Dark. Dark has the supporting cast to easily remove m-sab checks/counters if a wide variety of matchups. The presence of m-sab on Ghost has made it a type that is actually viable vs. the best types in our metagame.
Kyu-W: Ban. While it has made Ice more viable, the cost was a more matchup based metagame. Just take a look at the weighted metrics for Ice teams over on the stats page. Every matchup, except 3 (Grass, Normal, Water) is either green or red, which indicates a meaningful advantage for one type in the matchup.
Skymin: Ban. Anttya has re-iterated the salient points one why grass doesn't actually need this monster to succeed. DoW/Articuno I also has some excellent posts on how un-competitive battles with Skymin are.
Mega-Gallade: Suspect.
Mega-Medicham: Don't Ban. The ORAS speed creep was not kind to m-medi. We have more types that are better prepared to deal with it.
Zekrom: Nope. Unbanning ubers to help an underused type just makes our metagame more matchup based (see Kyu-w). This is not what I think we should be going for.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-204944481
I think this replay says it all about skymin regarding why it was banned unquestionably
I think this replay says it all about skymin regarding why it was banned unquestionably
I've found Mega Swampert to be pretty rare tbh and I never really struggle with it. Swampert is used on less than 49% of water teams and Swampertite is used on under 42% of Swamperts. So the chances of fighting a team with Mega Swampert is like under 2%. Also, if it doesn't run Rain Dance or use Politoed, then it is pretty slow. Grass Knot is 4x SE on it as well, and has 100BP against it.
Out of rain:
Only has 262 max speed. Outsped by a ton of common Pokemon who might be able to KO or cripple it without a Grass move. If they have a decently powerful Grass move, then it's gg Mega Swampert. Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Abomasnow,Ninetales, and Mega Charizard Y can all play weather mindgames with Mega Swampert, Abomasnow usually carries Wood Hammer, and Ninetales/Mega Char Y can both outspeed without a positive speed nature and without even using full EVs and commonly carry Solarbeam to murder it. Some other Pokemon with Grass Knot or another powerful Grass move who could KO include:
Specs Keldeo HP Grass (75% chance to OHKO 252HP/0SpD Mega Swampert after Rocks, clean OHKO if no bulk investment), Latios Energy Ball (Scarf Energy Ball even OHKOs non-bulk with an over 80% chance to OHKO bulky variants after Rocks. Spces/LO kill even bulky variants), Thundurus-I Grass Knot OHKOs I think, but I'm not certain (you can't change weight on the damage calculator lol) and LO definitely KOs, Protean Greninja Grass Knot OHKOs, LO Infernape Grass Knot OHKOs if 252 SpA I think (again weight is unchangeable), Skymin (lel) Seed Flare is overkill, Serperior Leaf Storm tho, LO Ludicolo Giga Drain OHKOs and Energy Ball non-LO OHKOs and speed ties, Breloom Bullet Seed (2 hits) KOs bulky variants and speed ties. There are probably more than this, but that's all I can think of atm.
In rain:
Any base 110 scarf or faster outspeeds Mega Swampert in rain. So, Scarf Latios Energy Ball, Scarf Greninja Grass Knot, Scarf Skymin Seed Flare, Swift Swim Ludicolo LO Giga Drain or non-LO Energy Ball (speed tie), Scarf Espeon Grass Knot (rare, but usable). Besides, if Politoed sets up Rain, it only gets 3 turns, and if it sets it up for itself it only gets 4. You can simply stall out the rain.
Mega Swampert can be defeated. Most decently powerful Grass moves can kill it, or you can simply stall out rain. Even in rain, Mega Swampert is still outsped, as base 70 speed is pretty low. It also hates burns as they lower its attack, and Toxic puts a timer on him. Paralysis (through Glare/Stun Spore) wrecks his speed as well. Freeze and Sleep obviously stop Mega Swampert from doing anything. It is very susceptible to status, very weak to grass, used less than 2% of the time, and is slow. You can hit it on the switch, or when it sets up rain, and then priority can finish it off. Mega Swampert isn't that big of a problem.
I'm pretty sure Glare and Stun Spore are not really viable in current meta, and even then status shouldn't be something that makes it less op. Freeze, Sleep, Para, and Burn all impact Deo-A negatively, but that doesn't make him any more OP. The only thing that is not impacted by status is a mixed attacking electric/poison type with insomnia and scald, which obviously doesn't exist. Either way status shouldn't necessarily be a reason that something isn't OP. Other than that, @ Mega Swampert, It's good, but yeah I don't find it OP at all.
While I don't want to make this into a Mega Swampert argument...
1. Who is going to run mega swampert outside of rain. Especially in a water team.
2. Any base 110 scarf or faster outspeeds Mega Swampert in rain
Really? 110 is a pretty high number there bucko. It's not exactly a con. And the rest of your argument basically equates to "It's weak to grass and burns". Sorry but I don't run a type with prankster sableye and have no room for grass moves. As I'm sure many types don't have room for. But since damp rock is banned, it's not exactly broken. The rain can be stalled, but it's just very annoying.
I don't think I ever said anything about it being unbeatable to begin with. I just compared it to excadrill. My post was just to say that water has a very powerful new toy to play with and I don't think they should be having any problems in the current meta outside of Skymin. (Which will probably be banned soon)
One of the worst parts about water was always the fact that you needed to run a stally water/ground or a lanturn to cover electric moves. But now they finally have this big powerful water ground type to use instead. One that can rack up kills and is in no way set-up fodder.
They aren't really viable, but some Serperior or Whimsicott carry them. I was just pointing out that IF you use them, they cripple Swampert. I was simply saying that it is not OP, grass moves and any status (outside Thunder Wave) will cripple it and it is slow.
There are a lot of Pokemon who are base 110 or higher. 70 to be exact, many of whom run Scarf (Latios, Latias, Thundurus-I, Tornadus-I, Tornadus-T, Gengar, Greninja, Shaymin-S, etc.), and if you don't have 1 Pokemon with a Grass move, then that's your problem. Unburden Slurpuff, Hawlucha, Accelgor, Hitmonlee, and Sceptile outspeed it in rain as well. It needs a turn to set up the rain, or Politoed to set rain up for it, but it only gets 3 or 4 turns in the rain, and can be hit when it switches in or when it sets up rain. I haven't personally found it annoying and haven't used a scarfer that can outspeed it in rain since ORAS came, and I still beat it every time. Also, there's priority, and a couple of powerful Sucker Punches or Extremespeeds or something could kill Mega Swampert. What type do you use, btw?
See, when you say stuff like "accelgor and hitmonlee outspeed it, it doesn't say much. I never even see those. And sceptile and hawlucha are very rare. Cause all of these are very meh and are not worth running to beat just a swampert.
Only Lati@s, thundurus-I, greninja, and gengar are good solutions. But these are all only useable by types that never had problems with mega swampert in the first place as they have other ways of killing and/or countering it too.
Only Lati@s, thundurus-I, greninja, and gengar are good solutions. But these are all only useable by types that never had problems with mega swampert in the first place as they have other ways of killing and/or countering it too.
What type do you use? I'm pretty sure every type has some way to beat Mega Swampert. And, Hawlucha is pretty common on Fighting teams. Those others are rare, but have uses outside of beating Mega Swampert (they can outspeed tons of stuff after unburden activates).
- Status