-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Resource LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Corporal Levi
- Start date
- Status
AYYE NIGGAS
Erm sorry. After talking with a few people (Corporal Levi and cityfolk mainly) and we have a few noms. Mine is Croagunk for A+
Croagunk is a very quirky mon. With a unique Poison/Fighting typing, as well as powerful STAB options, it's a pokemon not to be messed with. As it stands, Croagunk is a very anti-meta pokemon. Quite often, you will see posts such as "this pokemon is amazing at checking fighting types (Bar Croagunk)" or "this core beats most fighters (except Croagunk)" and it's not hard to see why. Poison type kills the few fairies that have a claim at beating all fighting types. Croagunk is also quite versatile. It can go:
mixed utility (Knock/DP/Sludge Wave/VWave)
physical (Knock/DP/Gunk/Fake Out OR Bullet Punch OR Sucker Punch OR Feint, really any priority lol)
Special (Nasty Plot/VWave/Sludge Wave/Shadow Ball OR Icy Wind)
or the dreaded 4 priority move set (obvi jk'ing lol)
Also, Dry Skin is a pretty solid abilty since is healed by Scald which other fighters would dread (Guts Machop I guess but). Croagunk can easily compete with the best of them, has the mixed stats to use a movepool wider than Jodie Sweetin's drug use in the early 2000s, possesses anti-meta qualities and it really isn't hard to see why this frog deserves to move up.
Erm sorry. After talking with a few people (Corporal Levi and cityfolk mainly) and we have a few noms. Mine is Croagunk for A+
Croagunk is a very quirky mon. With a unique Poison/Fighting typing, as well as powerful STAB options, it's a pokemon not to be messed with. As it stands, Croagunk is a very anti-meta pokemon. Quite often, you will see posts such as "this pokemon is amazing at checking fighting types (Bar Croagunk)" or "this core beats most fighters (except Croagunk)" and it's not hard to see why. Poison type kills the few fairies that have a claim at beating all fighting types. Croagunk is also quite versatile. It can go:
mixed utility (Knock/DP/Sludge Wave/VWave)
physical (Knock/DP/Gunk/Fake Out OR Bullet Punch OR Sucker Punch OR Feint, really any priority lol)
Special (Nasty Plot/VWave/Sludge Wave/Shadow Ball OR Icy Wind)
or the dreaded 4 priority move set (obvi jk'ing lol)
Also, Dry Skin is a pretty solid abilty since is healed by Scald which other fighters would dread (Guts Machop I guess but). Croagunk can easily compete with the best of them, has the mixed stats to use a movepool wider than Jodie Sweetin's drug use in the early 2000s, possesses anti-meta qualities and it really isn't hard to see why this frog deserves to move up.
Last edited:
I don't think Croagunk is worthy of A+. Croagunk has a tendency to get worn down easily, and it's somewhat hard to get it into the field of play safely. Croagunk is a Pokemon that relies entirely on its resistances and immunity, as well as its item, to do its job well. Its defenses (22-23/18/18 after Eviolite) are not that great, and unless its running an offensive set it doesn't hit very hard either. Switching into a Knock Off or unexpected SE move or double switch puts Croagunk in a bad position. Couple this with its inability to pivot out, and it means that Croagunk is very prediction reliant. I also don't understand what makes it anti-meta; is that code for "it beats FerroSpritz cores"? The rest of the metagame doesn't seem so kind to it. Bird spam beats it easily, it's not as great a Fighting-type check as it seems, it doesn't have the bulk to deal with Sticky Web teams, VoltTurn makes switching in without coming face-to-face with a counter extremely hard, it's trapped by both Gothita and Diglett, it doesn't like sun, Zigzagoon and other Belly Drummers get past it, and most walls have either Psychic nowadays or Will-o-Wisp to deal with it. Croagunk is a pretty good Pokemon, but when you put it next to A+ Pokemon like Chinchou, Ponyta, and especially Timburr, it just doesn't compare.
Alright these are some valid points, but I can't see much similarities to the three pokemon you named at the end. What makes Croagunk A+ material is its uniqueness. You can never know what Croagunk is running just because of the sheer amount of moves it has. Timburr, Chou and Pony are also both trapped by the pokemon you named, and basically all forms of Diglett beat the latter two, especially if CB or LO. I'll admit, Timburr is definitely competition for the frog, but when you look at it, they're different enough to share the same rank. One has sheer power and bulk on its side while the other has a fair amount of unpredictability and gets past Fairies easier (Bulk Up Timburr doesn't have the room for PJab I believe). Both can beat Pawn 1v1 95% of the time with solid priority moves, but Croagunk can definitely scare teams on the same level Timburr can, especially late game with the Nasty Plot set.
Calcs, just for reference. Personally have no opinion on croagunk. it is a frog though. :D
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 52 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 20-26 (90.9 - 118.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
(20, 20, 20, 20, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)
152 SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 52 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Croagunk: 7-10 (31.8 - 45.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
(7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)
188+ SpA Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)
188+ SpA Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 52 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 4-6 (18.1 - 27.2%) -- 1.4% chance to 4HKO
(4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6)
236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 52 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Croagunk: 48-60 (218.1 - 272.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(48, 48, 48, 48, 48, 52, 52, 52, 52, 52, 52, 52, 52, 52, 52, 60)
and on and on. I might add more later. Remember, this is nasty plot gunk I'm calving for, so it should be able to wreck havoc at +2 Spa.
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 52 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 20-26 (90.9 - 118.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
(20, 20, 20, 20, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)
152 SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 52 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Croagunk: 7-10 (31.8 - 45.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
(7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)
188+ SpA Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)
188+ SpA Croagunk Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 52 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 4-6 (18.1 - 27.2%) -- 1.4% chance to 4HKO
(4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6)
236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 52 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Croagunk: 48-60 (218.1 - 272.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(48, 48, 48, 48, 48, 52, 52, 52, 52, 52, 52, 52, 52, 52, 52, 60)
and on and on. I might add more later. Remember, this is nasty plot gunk I'm calving for, so it should be able to wreck havoc at +2 Spa.
Snivy -> B-
If anybody disagrees with this change, feel free to post about it. I would like to see a bit more discussion on Trubbish to B- and Skrelp to A- before going through with those, along with the current discussions.
What do you guys think of Porygon to A+? I think the ORAS Duo Destruction core did a good job in showing how difficult offensive Porygon is to switch into without resorting to gimmicks. Fighting-types are a hassle, but certainly not enough to hinder its viability significantly when even defensive Porygon is able to 2HKO 25/14 Timburr with Psychic after Stealth Rock, and offensive Porygon cleanly OHKOs full health 17 Speed Mienfoo after a Download boost. Pawniard loses badly to Hidden Power Fighting variants of Porygon and usually loses to Hidden Power Fire variants as well; even against defensive Porygon, Pawniard needs one of Life Orb, Swords Dance, or Brick Break to actually come out on top more often than not. If we assume Tri Attack and Recover are mandatory on the offensive set, Porygon still has space to run two of Ice Beam, Psychic, and Hidden Power Fighting, allowing it to be easily tailored so that nothing relevant can boast to switch in more than once and not be forced to mash recovery. Even with its excellent offensive presence, Porygon possesses solid 25/21/21 defenses after Eviolite (assuming 11 Speed is run) and access to Recover, allowing it to simultaneously act as an effective defensive check to a wide variety of threats. Of course, its walling capabilities are still noticeably worse than defensive Porygon's for teams that don't mind a drop in momentum, but I won't bother going into detail for that, considering how it walls more of the metagame than not.
I think the biggest argument in favour of Porygon for A+ is how easily it is able to fit onto just about any team. Very few Pokemon, with the possible exceptions of the top three Fighting-types and both members of ferrospritz, are able to check so many threats with so little support for only a single slot, and of those, Download Porygon is among the most difficult to safely switch into. Despite Porygon's low speed, offensive archetypes will enjoy having a teammate that can single-handedly check so many threatening sweepers while acting as a reliable glue Pokemon to pivot into throughout the match, on top of still having a very high damage output. Defensive archetypes will also appreciate a Pokemon that can check so many threats on its own, especially one that can keep itself alive for an extended period of time and hit common switch-ins hard if built to do so. Porygon is essentially a bulky support Pokemon that cannot be countered.
If anybody disagrees with this change, feel free to post about it. I would like to see a bit more discussion on Trubbish to B- and Skrelp to A- before going through with those, along with the current discussions.
What do you guys think of Porygon to A+? I think the ORAS Duo Destruction core did a good job in showing how difficult offensive Porygon is to switch into without resorting to gimmicks. Fighting-types are a hassle, but certainly not enough to hinder its viability significantly when even defensive Porygon is able to 2HKO 25/14 Timburr with Psychic after Stealth Rock, and offensive Porygon cleanly OHKOs full health 17 Speed Mienfoo after a Download boost. Pawniard loses badly to Hidden Power Fighting variants of Porygon and usually loses to Hidden Power Fire variants as well; even against defensive Porygon, Pawniard needs one of Life Orb, Swords Dance, or Brick Break to actually come out on top more often than not. If we assume Tri Attack and Recover are mandatory on the offensive set, Porygon still has space to run two of Ice Beam, Psychic, and Hidden Power Fighting, allowing it to be easily tailored so that nothing relevant can boast to switch in more than once and not be forced to mash recovery. Even with its excellent offensive presence, Porygon possesses solid 25/21/21 defenses after Eviolite (assuming 11 Speed is run) and access to Recover, allowing it to simultaneously act as an effective defensive check to a wide variety of threats. Of course, its walling capabilities are still noticeably worse than defensive Porygon's for teams that don't mind a drop in momentum, but I won't bother going into detail for that, considering how it walls more of the metagame than not.
I think the biggest argument in favour of Porygon for A+ is how easily it is able to fit onto just about any team. Very few Pokemon, with the possible exceptions of the top three Fighting-types and both members of ferrospritz, are able to check so many threats with so little support for only a single slot, and of those, Download Porygon is among the most difficult to safely switch into. Despite Porygon's low speed, offensive archetypes will enjoy having a teammate that can single-handedly check so many threatening sweepers while acting as a reliable glue Pokemon to pivot into throughout the match, on top of still having a very high damage output. Defensive archetypes will also appreciate a Pokemon that can check so many threats on its own, especially one that can keep itself alive for an extended period of time and hit common switch-ins hard if built to do so. Porygon is essentially a bulky support Pokemon that cannot be countered.
The little snippet I bolded is the driving factor behind it. Offensive Porygon hits ridiculously hard after a download boost, while still retaining enough bulk to take on some of the tier's best hitters. Oh, you're lacking on bulk? Defensive Porygon. Want a hard hitting tank? Porygon. Need a TR setter? Porygon. It can adapt around whatever you need it to and has been robbed of an A+ rank for far too long.
Snivy seems like more of a C+ pokemon for me, it doesn't have much coverage behind Knock Off, Giga Drain, Hidden Power, and LS, with most of its good HP's taking something away it needs. But glare, taunt, and screens make up for it somewhat. Snivy also only hits 17 speed, which allows Pony to outspeed and OHKO it.
I will comment about Porygon after I play with it a little more, since I've never used Pory before and want some exp with it before I comment.
I will comment about Porygon after I play with it a little more, since I've never used Pory before and want some exp with it before I comment.
Snivy is a good pokemon, but not worthy of B+. It's held back to much by poor coverage, and needs more support to make it shine.
I have no opinion on skrelp
Trubbish is good at walling fighters and pawn, but the cons do start stacking
+ spikes
+ walls pawn and most fighters
+ fast
+ recycle
- not too bulky
- kills momentum
- Pancham
- faces competition from ferro on stall and balance
- goth
- dig
- forced out by drilbur and psychic staryu
I probably forgot pros and cons, but this gives you the idea that there are a lot of drawbacks to using it.
Edit: porygon is a good mon, but not on the level of chinch timburr pony or fletch
Edit2: I have lost my ability to read and read snivy to B- as snivy to B+, snivy probably does deserve B-
I have no opinion on skrelp
Trubbish is good at walling fighters and pawn, but the cons do start stacking
+ spikes
+ walls pawn and most fighters
+ fast
+ recycle
- not too bulky
- kills momentum
- Pancham
- faces competition from ferro on stall and balance
- goth
- dig
- forced out by drilbur and psychic staryu
I probably forgot pros and cons, but this gives you the idea that there are a lot of drawbacks to using it.
Edit: porygon is a good mon, but not on the level of chinch timburr pony or fletch
Edit2: I have lost my ability to read and read snivy to B- as snivy to B+, snivy probably does deserve B-
Last edited:
wynaut from c+ to c-
Not much to say on this, Wynaut is just a bad 'Mon that fails to do its job more than once due to its meager bulk without Eviolite, because you need Berry Juice to even attempt to do your job.. not to mention the presence of Volt Switch and U-Turn make it harder for Wynaut to trap what it wants to finish off. Wynaut is completely eclipsed by Gothita because Gothita actually has attacks, and can outspeed most things that would normally U-Turn/Volt Switch out. I could go on and on about this, but I think it's pretty obvious that Wynaut lacks the bulk to be used over Gothita, much less used on a semi-competent team.
Not much to say on this, Wynaut is just a bad 'Mon that fails to do its job more than once due to its meager bulk without Eviolite, because you need Berry Juice to even attempt to do your job.. not to mention the presence of Volt Switch and U-Turn make it harder for Wynaut to trap what it wants to finish off. Wynaut is completely eclipsed by Gothita because Gothita actually has attacks, and can outspeed most things that would normally U-Turn/Volt Switch out. I could go on and on about this, but I think it's pretty obvious that Wynaut lacks the bulk to be used over Gothita, much less used on a semi-competent team.
Proposing Anorith from C- to C or C+
Has access to Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, Knock Off, STAB multi-hit move in Rock Blast, Brick Break, priority Aqua Jet, has decent bulk (45/50/50), reaches the great 18 speed tier. Although it's easily stopped by fighters and (on most sets) steel types.
Has access to Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, Knock Off, STAB multi-hit move in Rock Blast, Brick Break, priority Aqua Jet, has decent bulk (45/50/50), reaches the great 18 speed tier. Although it's easily stopped by fighters and (on most sets) steel types.
I just want to bring up some unranked I tested (and approved !).
Smoochum -> D Rank
There is not a lot of good ice mons in LC. But I think we cannot put things like Spheal and Smoochum on the same plan.
Smoochum has some niches. His unique offensive typing, his very good spatk and his decent speed allows him to be a good offensive mon.
To be honest, we can regret his abilities, who are stupidly bad, and the fact that he cannot take priorities due at his awful def.
Anyway, Psychic + Ice Beam is a good coverage, and I think he serves more the D Rank than the E. You can note he learns Nasty Plot, who is a second niche with his typing. I used this thing a lot, there is not a bad mon.
k sorry I'm retard, it's smoochum, not lippouti, thanks yagura.
Piplup -> D Rank/C- Rank
Piplup is, in my opinion, one of the more underrated mon of the LC. I just used it in ladder with 1400/1450, and in the beginning of LC UU (When I was first of the ladd, ok that was the beginning lmao). Anyway, he does his job really well. He has really a lot of niches :
-Good Bulk.
-Unique typing for a Defog (With Finneon)
-Defog.
-Stealth Rocks.
-Defiant, even if it's weird.
Here is the set I use :
Piplup @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent
Level: 5
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Covet / Icy Wind
- Defog
Really, really good set.
He has a nice mach-up against alot of commons lead.
Drilbur is easily beaten :
236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piplup: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Piplup Scald vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Drilbur: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I can defog if he put the sr, obv. I'm always winning.
Dwebble is beaten most of the time, however rock blast damages are important. I can Defog his Spikes, and if Knock Off, Covet is very funny, and then I can kill with Scald c:
He has a good match-up against Tirt lead, who does nothing.
And Mienfoo has some troubles with him too.
0 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piplup: 6-7 (24 - 28%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
with a koff ;
0 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Piplup: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
and me :
0 SpA Piplup Scald vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And, obv, if koff, I can Covet and steal his Eviolite c: . I can set sr without any difficulties (even if mienfoo taunt blocks me).
Great mon imo, badly he doesn't learn roost, and really that's too bad. He would have been really better with a good heal move. But it's only a D (Even if C- is right for me too), not more.
Smoochum -> D Rank
There is not a lot of good ice mons in LC. But I think we cannot put things like Spheal and Smoochum on the same plan.
Smoochum has some niches. His unique offensive typing, his very good spatk and his decent speed allows him to be a good offensive mon.
To be honest, we can regret his abilities, who are stupidly bad, and the fact that he cannot take priorities due at his awful def.
Anyway, Psychic + Ice Beam is a good coverage, and I think he serves more the D Rank than the E. You can note he learns Nasty Plot, who is a second niche with his typing. I used this thing a lot, there is not a bad mon.
k sorry I'm retard, it's smoochum, not lippouti, thanks yagura.
Piplup -> D Rank/C- Rank
Piplup is, in my opinion, one of the more underrated mon of the LC. I just used it in ladder with 1400/1450, and in the beginning of LC UU (When I was first of the ladd, ok that was the beginning lmao). Anyway, he does his job really well. He has really a lot of niches :
-Good Bulk.
-Unique typing for a Defog (With Finneon)
-Defog.
-Stealth Rocks.
-Defiant, even if it's weird.
Here is the set I use :
Piplup @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent
Level: 5
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Covet / Icy Wind
- Defog
Really, really good set.
He has a nice mach-up against alot of commons lead.
Drilbur is easily beaten :
236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piplup: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Piplup Scald vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Drilbur: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I can defog if he put the sr, obv. I'm always winning.
Dwebble is beaten most of the time, however rock blast damages are important. I can Defog his Spikes, and if Knock Off, Covet is very funny, and then I can kill with Scald c:
He has a good match-up against Tirt lead, who does nothing.
And Mienfoo has some troubles with him too.
0 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Piplup: 6-7 (24 - 28%) -- 22.8% chance to 4HKO
with a koff ;
0 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Piplup: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
and me :
0 SpA Piplup Scald vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And, obv, if koff, I can Covet and steal his Eviolite c: . I can set sr without any difficulties (even if mienfoo taunt blocks me).
Great mon imo, badly he doesn't learn roost, and really that's too bad. He would have been really better with a good heal move. But it's only a D (Even if C- is right for me too), not more.
Last edited:
I think you're talking about Smoochum? I think its Choice Scarf set is pretty good, as Ice and Psychic provide for some impressive coverage, and 25 Speed patches up its awful defenses to an extent, making it a decent revenge killer. I question whether it is relevant enough to be D-rank, but based on its revenge-killing ability alone, I believe it merits a place on our list.
Yeah, it's smoochum, sorry, idk why I put the french name.
Mag for Mid-A (down from A+). Mag is still a very good mon in this meta but it has a few critical flaws that remove it from true "best picks in the metagame" territory.
In terms of the things it does will, it's a very strong special attacker with momentum grabbing v-switch, which is nice. Its defensive typing is solid, granting it good switch-ins vs. Fletch, other flying types, and fairies. It can run a good scarf set which grants it more speed to fire off powerful electric moves. It has sturdy + Bj + endure + recycle to ensureat least one shitty 10-turn stretch a battle it lives a hit and can fire back; this is good to stop sweepers. The most common mons who can stop endure +bj are knock off mons, but not a lot of them want to eat a tbolt.
In terms of negatives, it's slow without scarf (and a lot of the appeal is in the BJ set), allowing it to be hit hard by a ton of common mons. This means it has to frequently rely on the free potshot afforded by endure + bj to get off a strong attack, sort of dampening its appeal because bj can no longer be used to stop something setting up. Each common team archetype has something that switches into mag well (ferro for bulk, Chou for balance / v-turn and HO doesnt switch in anyway, maybe drill) barring scarf HPs but those are iffy. it doesn't like rocks a ton because then it needs to endure, which isnt fun.
so yeah mag still makes me want to kill myself when i get up Rocks + 2 layers of spikes, get helix in and smash, then see mag endure back to full HP and kill helix, but overall it isnt one of the sole best pokemon in the meta. It's slow and needs the benefit of that free sash shot to hit things, which is fine as that's very useful, but it lacks the possible dominance of the other A+ mons as it usually deals in the realm of 1 kill a game. I understand the appeal of the Sturdy combo (and the argument "abra goes 1 for 1 too") but abra tends to have both the speed and the power to threaten teams outside of the sash usage, while mag tends to see its bulk and power falter a little when it comes to taking over games. A is still a stellar tier and i feel thats where mag belongs.
In terms of the things it does will, it's a very strong special attacker with momentum grabbing v-switch, which is nice. Its defensive typing is solid, granting it good switch-ins vs. Fletch, other flying types, and fairies. It can run a good scarf set which grants it more speed to fire off powerful electric moves. It has sturdy + Bj + endure + recycle to ensure
In terms of negatives, it's slow without scarf (and a lot of the appeal is in the BJ set), allowing it to be hit hard by a ton of common mons. This means it has to frequently rely on the free potshot afforded by endure + bj to get off a strong attack, sort of dampening its appeal because bj can no longer be used to stop something setting up. Each common team archetype has something that switches into mag well (ferro for bulk, Chou for balance / v-turn and HO doesnt switch in anyway, maybe drill) barring scarf HPs but those are iffy. it doesn't like rocks a ton because then it needs to endure, which isnt fun.
so yeah mag still makes me want to kill myself when i get up Rocks + 2 layers of spikes, get helix in and smash, then see mag endure back to full HP and kill helix, but overall it isnt one of the sole best pokemon in the meta. It's slow and needs the benefit of that free sash shot to hit things, which is fine as that's very useful, but it lacks the possible dominance of the other A+ mons as it usually deals in the realm of 1 kill a game. I understand the appeal of the Sturdy combo (and the argument "abra goes 1 for 1 too") but abra tends to have both the speed and the power to threaten teams outside of the sash usage, while mag tends to see its bulk and power falter a little when it comes to taking over games. A is still a stellar tier and i feel thats where mag belongs.
Ok so this has been pretty dead lately, so I'm gonna do some rearranging of the viability rankings that hopefully people agree with. Gonna go top to bottom with reasoning. viability is a combination between effectiveness at their role, how splashable said poke is on teams(ie not limited to any one playstyle) and opportunity cost - Freeroamer gave me this in IP and I like it.
Archen: A+ -> A Rank: Say hello to the prehistoric bird that has been around since forever ago and only recently came about in BW, where it was kinda crappy, but this gen it is no longer the pre-evo of a shittier aerodactyl. The release of berry juice into the metagame since XY has helped it incredibly, as well as introduction of mons back into the meta such as gligar and yanma, and murkrow whom made a return from murdering bw. But as those left it still retained one very important aspect, its amazing mix of bulk, power, and checking a once suspect worthy mon, fletchling. But as fletchling's viability went down, fret not young archen, as that is not your demise, for other traits hold you back. The first choice when you use an archen is usually the item, berry juice or eviolite, and this itself limits your already annoying limited option because archen has pretty bad 4mss. If you run berry juice you become a much more offensively inclined because you don't have to run roost and can always drop SR/Defog to go all out offensive. What you trade off is SR really ruins your bulk, and it has meh synergy with most defoggers, and archen tries to make up for this by running just enough defense evs to do its job, but dump the rest into speed/attack to make its switch ins punished, as it hits p hard and has a great speed tier. But, it really suffers from its 4mss limiting its coverage/ its attacks are very prediction reliant in the current metagame, not to mention SR + being forced out by mons such as ferroseed rather easily makes its chances rather limited if it wants to check mons like fletchling. If teams do not have fletchling, you're a little safer in going risky with archen but its a soft check to fighters at best, especially mienfoo and timburr. Its a rather poor defogger as well. Eviolite fairs a little better in the current metagame, though its 4mss is even worse. You want SR/Defog, u-turn, acrobatics, earthquake, knock off, heatwave, and need roost and rock slide, and with very few consistent SR setters in the tier you'll probably need that. So you end up with 1 or 2 free slots. Its slow and weaker so stuff switches into it better and can threaten the team. U-turn is p mandatory because of that as well. Overall I think I'm understating what it does and I'm sorry for that because it is not my intention but I just believe archen isn't A+ anymore. Without SR up this mon is a much bigger threat but you can't account for it always not being up so its inconsistent vs offense whom makes a huge deal about setting up SR and vs stall it doesn't hit hard enough unless fully offensive. Balance is its best matchup, and the most common playstyle and hence why it still stays high up.
(I agree with shrug on mag)
Ponyta: A+ -> A Rank: Fiery Pony :3. Anyway straight to the point the archen writeup was fun but to much flash. Ponyta's looks are incredible appealing but at the same time very deceiving. Hitting the coveted 19 speed tier and having above average bulk and nice offensive stats, along with two different but similar sets. But, that high bst and a great ability as flame body is, are ironically held back by a normally great typing, as fire is bait for a lot in the current meta. It doesn't have 4mss or item issues like archen or so need to go into that but like archen it really only has a good matchup vs balance and sometimes stall. On balance generally skrelp/chinchou/staryu are the only water types and its only somewhat hard to add mons capable of getting past these two consistently, but skrelp is a roadblock to sunny beam, while chou has heal bell and abuses chinchou for momentum if defensive. Biggest threat to ponyta on balance is houndour, which hard counters any set without double kick/wild charge, and is hard af to switch into. Stall doesn't enjoy constant status spam, but timburr/restalk chinchou/hippopotas pose a threat to that considering SR + sand damage punishes it not recovering every chance it gets, while timburr can just bulk up on it to win if it gets a guts boost or ponyta has no evio already. Now onto fighters, ponyta can really only check mienfoo/pancham if only counting the big 4 fighters, as timburr/croagunk mess with ponyta majorly. But if pancham/mienfoo are run with diglett on offense/balance, ponyta is in for some huge trouble. Balance can also fit a cleric very well, while offense sadly cannot, though ponyta's worst matchup overall is vs offense due to SR + constant pressure.
Pancham: A -> A- / B+: Pancham is classic case of new toy syndrome, its basically the mixture of timburr and mienfoo, with middling results depending on the set. With the move tutors it got a shitton of coverage and it still has parting shot and SD, with little to few switch ins but people hyped it to much. If it wants to be a fast SD sweeper, it lacks a lot of bulk and its either walled by fairies or can be hard checked by croagunk/ soft checked by timburr, and it is p easy to revenge. The best set is parting shot +3 attacks, as it has trapping mons easily supported to help pancham not need coverage like zen headbutt, but it either is to weak or again, not bulky.
Foongus: A -> A- (I love you too levi): Now I know I tried this before and it failed but hear me out. Foongus was released in BW1, as a meh mon, with a typing shared with bulbasaur, but with access to spore over sleep powder, similar bulk, but weaker and slower. BW2 gave it regen and the rest is history, as foongus claim to fame as the fighter check with regen has been around since then, but tbf since xy that niche has gotten weaker to support. Knock Off buff made fighters readily able to overpower foongus over time, especially BU timburr and taunt/acro foo, and pancham straight out KOs it along with gunk turning it into set up bait once something has been slept. Its also goth bait and the powder nerf makes hidden power fire needed to not get screwed by ferroseed. Also overcoat vullaby>foongus. Not much to say as foongus is simple enough to talk about.
Scraggy: B -> B-/C+: Let me cut this short, scraggy just sucks, its DD set has no hope to really sweeping any team except stall if it gets enough iron head hax on a spritzee, scarf scraggy doesn't hit hard enough and is walled by enough common mons. Does any team only carry one thing to check this ugly shit?
Honedge: C+ -> C: I have a soft spot for honedge, as its a cool mon for sticky webs, but sticky webs would rather have golett/pumpkaboo as a spin blocker, and automotize dbond is its best niche, which is basically a 1 for 1.
Spinarak: C+ -> C: This mons is largely outclassed by surskit as a sticky web setter and as its main niche is that is there any real reason for it to be this high?
Tentacool: C+ -> B/B-: Tentacool is seriously underrated, it has all the makings of a mon capable of fitting on every playstyle. Liquid Ooze, toxic spikes, acid spray, dazzling gleam, scald, sludge bomb, rapid spin, haze, knock off and amazing bulk to support spamming these attacks. Physically defensive can take on fighting types really well while still sporting great special bulk while sdef lets it even slay abras. On stall it adds tspikes and a great synergy with spritzee/ponyta, on balance it gives the team a way of weakening fighters for pawn and spritzee for timburr/mienfoo. Offense it leads with either LO or eviolite where it sets up tspikes and spams acid spray spin, knock off and scald to great effect. On sticky web its like natu that abs hyped but deadlier because bulk.
Was gonna write more but superbowl!!!!!!!
(I agree with shrug on mag)
I fought long and hard for Spinarak's potential to be realized. It's an absolutely viable alternative to Surskit thanks to a better defensive typing, usable STABs, priority and Toxic Spikes. It deserves to stay C+.Ok so this has been pretty dead lately, so I'm gonna do some rearranging of the viability rankings that hopefully people agree with. Gonna go top to bottom with reasoning. viability is a combination between effectiveness at their role, how splashable said poke is on teams(ie not limited to any one playstyle) and opportunity cost - Freeroamer gave me this in IP and I like it.
Was gonna write more but superbowl!!!!!!!Archen: A+ -> A Rank: Say hello to the prehistoric bird that has been around since forever ago and only recently came about in BW, where it was kinda crappy, but this gen it is no longer the pre-evo of a shittier aerodactyl. The release of berry juice into the metagame since XY has helped it incredibly, as well as introduction of mons back into the meta such as gligar and yanma, and murkrow whom made a return from murdering bw. But as those left it still retained one very important aspect, its amazing mix of bulk, power, and checking a once suspect worthy mon, fletchling. But as fletchling's viability went down, fret not young archen, as that is not your demise, for other traits hold you back. The first choice when you use an archen is usually the item, berry juice or eviolite, and this itself limits your already annoying limited option because archen has pretty bad 4mss. If you run berry juice you become a much more offensively inclined because you don't have to run roost and can always drop SR/Defog to go all out offensive. What you trade off is SR really ruins your bulk, and it has meh synergy with most defoggers, and archen tries to make up for this by running just enough defense evs to do its job, but dump the rest into speed/attack to make its switch ins punished, as it hits p hard and has a great speed tier. But, it really suffers from its 4mss limiting its coverage/ its attacks are very prediction reliant in the current metagame, not to mention SR + being forced out by mons such as ferroseed rather easily makes its chances rather limited if it wants to check mons like fletchling. If teams do not have fletchling, you're a little safer in going risky with archen but its a soft check to fighters at best, especially mienfoo and timburr. Its a rather poor defogger as well. Eviolite fairs a little better in the current metagame, though its 4mss is even worse. You want SR/Defog, u-turn, acrobatics, earthquake, knock off, heatwave, and need roost and rock slide, and with very few consistent SR setters in the tier you'll probably need that. So you end up with 1 or 2 free slots. Its slow and weaker so stuff switches into it better and can threaten the team. U-turn is p mandatory because of that as well. Overall I think I'm understating what it does and I'm sorry for that because it is not my intention but I just believe archen isn't A+ anymore. Without SR up this mon is a much bigger threat but you can't account for it always not being up so its inconsistent vs offense whom makes a huge deal about setting up SR and vs stall it doesn't hit hard enough unless fully offensive. Balance is its best matchup, and the most common playstyle and hence why it still stays high up.
(I agree with shrug on mag)
Ponyta: A+ -> A Rank: Fiery Pony :3. Anyway straight to the point the archen writeup was fun but to much flash. Ponyta's looks are incredible appealing but at the same time very deceiving. Hitting the coveted 19 speed tier and having above average bulk and nice offensive stats, along with two different but similar sets. But, that high bst and a great ability as flame body is, are ironically held back by a normally great typing, as fire is bait for a lot in the current meta. It doesn't have 4mss or item issues like archen or so need to go into that but like archen it really only has a good matchup vs balance and sometimes stall. On balance generally skrelp/chinchou/staryu are the only water types and its only somewhat hard to add mons capable of getting past these two consistently, but skrelp is a roadblock to sunny beam, while chou has heal bell and abuses chinchou for momentum if defensive. Biggest threat to ponyta on balance is houndour, which hard counters any set without double kick/wild charge, and is hard af to switch into. Stall doesn't enjoy constant status spam, but timburr/restalk chinchou/hippopotas pose a threat to that considering SR + sand damage punishes it not recovering every chance it gets, while timburr can just bulk up on it to win if it gets a guts boost or ponyta has no evio already. Now onto fighters, ponyta can really only check mienfoo/pancham if only counting the big 4 fighters, as timburr/croagunk mess with ponyta majorly. But if pancham/mienfoo are run with diglett on offense/balance, ponyta is in for some huge trouble. Balance can also fit a cleric very well, while offense sadly cannot, though ponyta's worst matchup overall is vs offense due to SR + constant pressure.
Pancham: A -> A- / B+: Pancham is classic case of new toy syndrome, its basically the mixture of timburr and mienfoo, with middling results depending on the set. With the move tutors it got a shitton of coverage and it still has parting shot and SD, with little to few switch ins but people hyped it to much. If it wants to be a fast SD sweeper, it lacks a lot of bulk and its either walled by fairies or can be hard checked by croagunk/ soft checked by timburr, and it is p easy to revenge. The best set is parting shot +3 attacks, as it has trapping mons easily supported to help pancham not need coverage like zen headbutt, but it either is to weak or again, not bulky.
Foongus: A -> A- (I love you too levi): Now I know I tried this before and it failed but hear me out. Foongus was released in BW1, as a meh mon, with a typing shared with bulbasaur, but with access to spore over sleep powder, similar bulk, but weaker and slower. BW2 gave it regen and the rest is history, as foongus claim to fame as the fighter check with regen has been around since then, but tbf since xy that niche has gotten weaker to support. Knock Off buff made fighters readily able to overpower foongus over time, especially BU timburr and taunt/acro foo, and pancham straight out KOs it along with gunk turning it into set up bait once something has been slept. Its also goth bait and the powder nerf makes hidden power fire needed to not get screwed by ferroseed. Also overcoat vullaby>foongus. Not much to say as foongus is simple enough to talk about.
Scraggy: B -> B-/C+: Let me cut this short, scraggy just sucks, its DD set has no hope to really sweeping any team except stall if it gets enough iron head hax on a spritzee, scarf scraggy doesn't hit hard enough and is walled by enough common mons. Does any team only carry one thing to check this ugly shit?
Honedge: C+ -> C: I have a soft spot for honedge, as its a cool mon for sticky webs, but sticky webs would rather have golett/pumpkaboo as a spin blocker, and automotize dbond is its best niche, which is basically a 1 for 1.
Spinarak: C+ -> C: This mons is largely outclassed by surskit as a sticky web setter and as its main niche is that is there any real reason for it to be this high?
Tentacool: C+ -> B/B-: Tentacool is seriously underrated, it has all the makings of a mon capable of fitting on every playstyle. Liquid Ooze, toxic spikes, acid spray, dazzling gleam, scald, sludge bomb, rapid spin, haze, knock off and amazing bulk to support spamming these attacks. Physically defensive can take on fighting types really well while still sporting great special bulk while sdef lets it even slay abras. On stall it adds tspikes and a great synergy with spritzee/ponyta, on balance it gives the team a way of weakening fighters for pawn and spritzee for timburr/mienfoo. Offense it leads with either LO or eviolite where it sets up tspikes and spams acid spray spin, knock off and scald to great effect. On sticky web its like natu that abs hyped but deadlier because bulk.
I disagree with moving pretty much anything else down that you've proposed. You've taken their flaws in to accoubt, but so did everyone that wanted them to move initially. The metagame quite simply has not changed enough to accommodate the changes you're proposing. None of these Pokemon are objectively worse than they were and I truly believe they are ranked justly.
No comment on Tentacool.
I agree with Pancham A -> A- and Tentacool -> B- for the reasons you mentioned, but you seem to really be missing a lot of key info when it comes to judging the other Pokemon. Pretty much what The Avalanches said on that, and I'm actually baffled by you wanting to move Ponyta down.Ok so this has been pretty dead lately, so I'm gonna do some rearranging of the viability rankings that hopefully people agree with. Gonna go top to bottom with reasoning. viability is a combination between effectiveness at their role, how splashable said poke is on teams(ie not limited to any one playstyle) and opportunity cost - Freeroamer gave me this in IP and I like it.
Was gonna write more but superbowl!!!!!!!Archen: A+ -> A Rank: Say hello to the prehistoric bird that has been around since forever ago and only recently came about in BW, where it was kinda crappy, but this gen it is no longer the pre-evo of a shittier aerodactyl. The release of berry juice into the metagame since XY has helped it incredibly, as well as introduction of mons back into the meta such as gligar and yanma, and murkrow whom made a return from murdering bw. But as those left it still retained one very important aspect, its amazing mix of bulk, power, and checking a once suspect worthy mon, fletchling. But as fletchling's viability went down, fret not young archen, as that is not your demise, for other traits hold you back. The first choice when you use an archen is usually the item, berry juice or eviolite, and this itself limits your already annoying limited option because archen has pretty bad 4mss. If you run berry juice you become a much more offensively inclined because you don't have to run roost and can always drop SR/Defog to go all out offensive. What you trade off is SR really ruins your bulk, and it has meh synergy with most defoggers, and archen tries to make up for this by running just enough defense evs to do its job, but dump the rest into speed/attack to make its switch ins punished, as it hits p hard and has a great speed tier. But, it really suffers from its 4mss limiting its coverage/ its attacks are very prediction reliant in the current metagame, not to mention SR + being forced out by mons such as ferroseed rather easily makes its chances rather limited if it wants to check mons like fletchling. If teams do not have fletchling, you're a little safer in going risky with archen but its a soft check to fighters at best, especially mienfoo and timburr. Its a rather poor defogger as well. Eviolite fairs a little better in the current metagame, though its 4mss is even worse. You want SR/Defog, u-turn, acrobatics, earthquake, knock off, heatwave, and need roost and rock slide, and with very few consistent SR setters in the tier you'll probably need that. So you end up with 1 or 2 free slots. Its slow and weaker so stuff switches into it better and can threaten the team. U-turn is p mandatory because of that as well. Overall I think I'm understating what it does and I'm sorry for that because it is not my intention but I just believe archen isn't A+ anymore. Without SR up this mon is a much bigger threat but you can't account for it always not being up so its inconsistent vs offense whom makes a huge deal about setting up SR and vs stall it doesn't hit hard enough unless fully offensive. Balance is its best matchup, and the most common playstyle and hence why it still stays high up.
(I agree with shrug on mag)
Ponyta: A+ -> A Rank: Fiery Pony :3. Anyway straight to the point the archen writeup was fun but to much flash. Ponyta's looks are incredible appealing but at the same time very deceiving. Hitting the coveted 19 speed tier and having above average bulk and nice offensive stats, along with two different but similar sets. But, that high bst and a great ability as flame body is, are ironically held back by a normally great typing, as fire is bait for a lot in the current meta. It doesn't have 4mss or item issues like archen or so need to go into that but like archen it really only has a good matchup vs balance and sometimes stall. On balance generally skrelp/chinchou/staryu are the only water types and its only somewhat hard to add mons capable of getting past these two consistently, but skrelp is a roadblock to sunny beam, while chou has heal bell and abuses chinchou for momentum if defensive. Biggest threat to ponyta on balance is houndour, which hard counters any set without double kick/wild charge, and is hard af to switch into. Stall doesn't enjoy constant status spam, but timburr/restalk chinchou/hippopotas pose a threat to that considering SR + sand damage punishes it not recovering every chance it gets, while timburr can just bulk up on it to win if it gets a guts boost or ponyta has no evio already. Now onto fighters, ponyta can really only check mienfoo/pancham if only counting the big 4 fighters, as timburr/croagunk mess with ponyta majorly. But if pancham/mienfoo are run with diglett on offense/balance, ponyta is in for some huge trouble. Balance can also fit a cleric very well, while offense sadly cannot, though ponyta's worst matchup overall is vs offense due to SR + constant pressure.
Pancham: A -> A- / B+: Pancham is classic case of new toy syndrome, its basically the mixture of timburr and mienfoo, with middling results depending on the set. With the move tutors it got a shitton of coverage and it still has parting shot and SD, with little to few switch ins but people hyped it to much. If it wants to be a fast SD sweeper, it lacks a lot of bulk and its either walled by fairies or can be hard checked by croagunk/ soft checked by timburr, and it is p easy to revenge. The best set is parting shot +3 attacks, as it has trapping mons easily supported to help pancham not need coverage like zen headbutt, but it either is to weak or again, not bulky.
Foongus: A -> A- (I love you too levi): Now I know I tried this before and it failed but hear me out. Foongus was released in BW1, as a meh mon, with a typing shared with bulbasaur, but with access to spore over sleep powder, similar bulk, but weaker and slower. BW2 gave it regen and the rest is history, as foongus claim to fame as the fighter check with regen has been around since then, but tbf since xy that niche has gotten weaker to support. Knock Off buff made fighters readily able to overpower foongus over time, especially BU timburr and taunt/acro foo, and pancham straight out KOs it along with gunk turning it into set up bait once something has been slept. Its also goth bait and the powder nerf makes hidden power fire needed to not get screwed by ferroseed. Also overcoat vullaby>foongus. Not much to say as foongus is simple enough to talk about.
Scraggy: B -> B-/C+: Let me cut this short, scraggy just sucks, its DD set has no hope to really sweeping any team except stall if it gets enough iron head hax on a spritzee, scarf scraggy doesn't hit hard enough and is walled by enough common mons. Does any team only carry one thing to check this ugly shit?
Honedge: C+ -> C: I have a soft spot for honedge, as its a cool mon for sticky webs, but sticky webs would rather have golett/pumpkaboo as a spin blocker, and automotize dbond is its best niche, which is basically a 1 for 1.
Spinarak: C+ -> C: This mons is largely outclassed by surskit as a sticky web setter and as its main niche is that is there any real reason for it to be this high?
Tentacool: C+ -> B/B-: Tentacool is seriously underrated, it has all the makings of a mon capable of fitting on every playstyle. Liquid Ooze, toxic spikes, acid spray, dazzling gleam, scald, sludge bomb, rapid spin, haze, knock off and amazing bulk to support spamming these attacks. Physically defensive can take on fighting types really well while still sporting great special bulk while sdef lets it even slay abras. On stall it adds tspikes and a great synergy with spritzee/ponyta, on balance it gives the team a way of weakening fighters for pawn and spritzee for timburr/mienfoo. Offense it leads with either LO or eviolite where it sets up tspikes and spams acid spray spin, knock off and scald to great effect. On sticky web its like natu that abs hyped but deadlier because bulk.
haven't posted here for a while so here goes
mag should stay A+, it is so easy to wear down chinchou and drilbur and then it can literally click voltswitch and it's the most threatening mon in the game after that, switching in to loads of things, and just voltturning out dishing out super high damage, also checks loads of stuff with endure, it is clearly a top tier threat worthy of A+. let me just say this though: mag isn't solely an all-round check to sweepers, and if you're overrelying on endure+BJ, you're using magnemite wrong, and using it to beat things it shouldn't beat. Shrug, your argument focuses too much on that point, but it's in no way reliant on sturdy+endure, it doesn't even need endure, it can sacrifice it for hp grass to wear down chinchou super quickly. recylce BJ is just a bonus, not it's main selling point. not even mentioned scarf lol, which is just incredible. so hard to switch into.
pony should stay A+, it's one of the best glue mons ever, changing it's final slot to support it's teams needs. it can run wildcharge to bait skrelp archen, solarbeam for chou and other waters, toxic for fires. it can even run random shit like LO sets which hits like a truck. ponyta is the definition of a mon which can easily wear down or lure its counters, whilst also having an easy time switching into many common threats due to its speed+bulk. your flaws you list are the only things stopping it from being S
I would have agreed with you about archen until I innovated my based 17 speed eviolite set. it can switch into things all game, threaten with a massive attack stat and edgequake coverage, roost off easily, and can easily run any of SR/Defog/Uturn in the last slot. it's typing and decent bulky with eviolite means it has an easy time switching in and threatening some of the most common mons in the meta, not to mention it still wrecks volturn+dig teams
the hype around pancham may have died down, but that still doesn't mean it's worse. it's still strong as fuck, getting past counters easily, serving as a fantastic wallbreaker, i don't think it's viability has changed one but, just people are using it less
skrelp to A- i agree with, it can switch in on quite a few common threats, and it's super tough to switch into itself
trubbish and scraggy can move down to B-, i would never use them, but also don't mind them being B. don't really have much of an opinion. e: scraggy is still probably B tbh, it has a strong knock off, and i think an intimidate set is underrated. maybe it can't sweep like it used to be able to, but it's strong stab combo is very cool. trubbish just sucks nowadays, it's gone from anti meta, to completely shat on by the meta and B-/C+ are good for it
foongus hard walls many important threats and is very annoying with spore, it can just wait around long enough to wall whatever it needs to. yes, it can be taken advantage of sometimes, but so can spritzee and ferroseed, but the pros outweigh those cons, and foongus is so easy to fit onto balance, stall and bulky offense
my own suggestion: Numel for C+, if you haven't seen me raving about it, you've obviously not been paying attention. see this post for reasoning: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ittle-cup-edition.3490753/page-9#post-5962165 it's stabs make for good coverage, and it can just wisp the archen the only relevant things which resist the stab combo
i think tentacool is fine at C+. it's a lot like numel in that it has a really cool defensive typing and can be slightly annoying to switch into due to it's stab combo which includes a 30% burn move, but it's lack of recovery holds it back immensely. it jsut doesn't have the longevity for B tier and it doesn't make up for that longevity by being super powerful/annoying
I'll move piplup/smoochum to D tomorrow they seem fine there i guess idrc
mag should stay A+, it is so easy to wear down chinchou and drilbur and then it can literally click voltswitch and it's the most threatening mon in the game after that, switching in to loads of things, and just voltturning out dishing out super high damage, also checks loads of stuff with endure, it is clearly a top tier threat worthy of A+. let me just say this though: mag isn't solely an all-round check to sweepers, and if you're overrelying on endure+BJ, you're using magnemite wrong, and using it to beat things it shouldn't beat. Shrug, your argument focuses too much on that point, but it's in no way reliant on sturdy+endure, it doesn't even need endure, it can sacrifice it for hp grass to wear down chinchou super quickly. recylce BJ is just a bonus, not it's main selling point. not even mentioned scarf lol, which is just incredible. so hard to switch into.
pony should stay A+, it's one of the best glue mons ever, changing it's final slot to support it's teams needs. it can run wildcharge to bait skrelp archen, solarbeam for chou and other waters, toxic for fires. it can even run random shit like LO sets which hits like a truck. ponyta is the definition of a mon which can easily wear down or lure its counters, whilst also having an easy time switching into many common threats due to its speed+bulk. your flaws you list are the only things stopping it from being S
I would have agreed with you about archen until I innovated my based 17 speed eviolite set. it can switch into things all game, threaten with a massive attack stat and edgequake coverage, roost off easily, and can easily run any of SR/Defog/Uturn in the last slot. it's typing and decent bulky with eviolite means it has an easy time switching in and threatening some of the most common mons in the meta, not to mention it still wrecks volturn+dig teams
the hype around pancham may have died down, but that still doesn't mean it's worse. it's still strong as fuck, getting past counters easily, serving as a fantastic wallbreaker, i don't think it's viability has changed one but, just people are using it less
skrelp to A- i agree with, it can switch in on quite a few common threats, and it's super tough to switch into itself
trubbish and scraggy can move down to B-, i would never use them, but also don't mind them being B. don't really have much of an opinion. e: scraggy is still probably B tbh, it has a strong knock off, and i think an intimidate set is underrated. maybe it can't sweep like it used to be able to, but it's strong stab combo is very cool. trubbish just sucks nowadays, it's gone from anti meta, to completely shat on by the meta and B-/C+ are good for it
foongus hard walls many important threats and is very annoying with spore, it can just wait around long enough to wall whatever it needs to. yes, it can be taken advantage of sometimes, but so can spritzee and ferroseed, but the pros outweigh those cons, and foongus is so easy to fit onto balance, stall and bulky offense
my own suggestion: Numel for C+, if you haven't seen me raving about it, you've obviously not been paying attention. see this post for reasoning: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ittle-cup-edition.3490753/page-9#post-5962165 it's stabs make for good coverage, and it can just wisp the archen the only relevant things which resist the stab combo
i think tentacool is fine at C+. it's a lot like numel in that it has a really cool defensive typing and can be slightly annoying to switch into due to it's stab combo which includes a 30% burn move, but it's lack of recovery holds it back immensely. it jsut doesn't have the longevity for B tier and it doesn't make up for that longevity by being super powerful/annoying
I'll move piplup/smoochum to D tomorrow they seem fine there i guess idrc
Last edited:
So in a more linear fashion, the proposed changes list as such?
Archen from A+ to A
Ponyta from A+ to A
Mag from A+ to A
Pancham from A to A-
Foongus from A to A-
Scraggy from B to B-
Trubish from B to B-
Honedge from C+ to C
Spinarak from C+ to C
Tentacool from C+ to B-
Numel from D to C+
Piplup from Unranked to D
Smoochum from Unranked to D
I'll try and address them for what i know:
Archen should stay at A+, it's fast, strong with Evio (run the set Rowan said as it's godly), can also do well with Berry Juice, grabs momentum with U-turn, Knocks things Off, overall a great mon.
Pony is in the same boat, I feel like it needs to stay A+ as well. Flame Body is so useful in stopping U-turn spam, it hits hard, spreads status, has recovery, has good bulk, and is so fast that it's hard to see in A.
Rowan, I see your point about Mag, but the major flaw i always find when i use it is speed: namly, mag's speed isnt good. Assuming rocks are up (breaking sturdy) Mag is outrun and thwacked by: Pawn's knock off, Mienfoo's Drain Punch, Pony's Flare Blitz, Archen's EQ (which is the best Archen set IMO), and Drillbur's EQ, among other things. In those situations (which are pretty common), it usually is forced to endure, which is why my argument was based there. With all of those common mons outrunning and hitting hard, it's tough for mag to do it's job. When it gets in on things it likes (Spritzee and others) it can be devastating by slicing teams open with Vswitch, a point i acknowledged (briefly). The way i'm thinking of it (and this might be a concept only in my head) when you're a step behind in the volt-turn war, Mag is absolutely brutal to face because it's always in on something that it threatens. When you're on equal footing, it's alright depending on the matchup, but it's outsped and hit hard too often for my liking. It also fails to pick up momentum as much as i would like, coming in on one common fairy safely (Spritz, dont switch into EQ snubull) as well as some other things (Fletch notably), but not being able to consistently move in on a bunch of the A-tier mons hurts it in terms of regaining momentum. In contrast, A+ mons in similar situations (Chou and Foo notably) regain momentum with ease. I mentioned Scarf in passing, it's a good scarf mon but gets worn down easily, to be fair i havent used it much but i feel good enough in saying it doesn't bump it to A+. A is very very good and i think thats where mag goes, i can see the A+ side but A is slightly stronger for me.
Pancham i'll abstain from, other people know it much better than I.
Foongus should stay an A mon, in this meta getting in and getting out with impunity is valued and Regen is the definition of that, Spore is a fucking ATM machine for set-ups and momentum gaining, and the powders are always useful. Comes in as a big check to fighting-types and Chou, two big types of threat, and supports team well.
Scraggy should stay at B, DD is unexpected (and mostly unprepared for outside of Fairies and Fletch, if those are taken out then the bulk and power of Scraggers is actually quite nice. The main set however is Scarf, which usually merits the "Foo does it better" argument, but it ignores a crucial component: Moxie. Some things check Scarf Fighters (Pony, etc) but cant switch in, so the other player fodders something and gets the check in, Scraggy makes that impossible with moxie, not a huge niche but one that supports solid B nonetheless.
Trubish isn't good, gets smacked by a lot of common things and isn't super bulky, beating Foo cant be your only niche when you get u-turned out of and have no utility after
Honedge i've used 0 times as i haven't really had a reason to, idk if that's a testimony
Spinarak seems outclassed though if there's a reason for it to be C+ then i supposed there is, again abstaining
Tentacool should move up imo, pretty fast and bulky, can set up underrated tspikes, acid spray, Knockoff to wallbreak and suck makes it at least B-.
Numel: C+ is okay for it? idk
Piplup: is my favorite mon, also has a niche that's decent
Archen from A+ to A
Ponyta from A+ to A
Mag from A+ to A
Pancham from A to A-
Foongus from A to A-
Scraggy from B to B-
Trubish from B to B-
Honedge from C+ to C
Spinarak from C+ to C
Tentacool from C+ to B-
Numel from D to C+
Piplup from Unranked to D
Smoochum from Unranked to D
I'll try and address them for what i know:
Archen should stay at A+, it's fast, strong with Evio (run the set Rowan said as it's godly), can also do well with Berry Juice, grabs momentum with U-turn, Knocks things Off, overall a great mon.
Pony is in the same boat, I feel like it needs to stay A+ as well. Flame Body is so useful in stopping U-turn spam, it hits hard, spreads status, has recovery, has good bulk, and is so fast that it's hard to see in A.
Rowan, I see your point about Mag, but the major flaw i always find when i use it is speed: namly, mag's speed isnt good. Assuming rocks are up (breaking sturdy) Mag is outrun and thwacked by: Pawn's knock off, Mienfoo's Drain Punch, Pony's Flare Blitz, Archen's EQ (which is the best Archen set IMO), and Drillbur's EQ, among other things. In those situations (which are pretty common), it usually is forced to endure, which is why my argument was based there. With all of those common mons outrunning and hitting hard, it's tough for mag to do it's job. When it gets in on things it likes (Spritzee and others) it can be devastating by slicing teams open with Vswitch, a point i acknowledged (briefly). The way i'm thinking of it (and this might be a concept only in my head) when you're a step behind in the volt-turn war, Mag is absolutely brutal to face because it's always in on something that it threatens. When you're on equal footing, it's alright depending on the matchup, but it's outsped and hit hard too often for my liking. It also fails to pick up momentum as much as i would like, coming in on one common fairy safely (Spritz, dont switch into EQ snubull) as well as some other things (Fletch notably), but not being able to consistently move in on a bunch of the A-tier mons hurts it in terms of regaining momentum. In contrast, A+ mons in similar situations (Chou and Foo notably) regain momentum with ease. I mentioned Scarf in passing, it's a good scarf mon but gets worn down easily, to be fair i havent used it much but i feel good enough in saying it doesn't bump it to A+. A is very very good and i think thats where mag goes, i can see the A+ side but A is slightly stronger for me.
Pancham i'll abstain from, other people know it much better than I.
Foongus should stay an A mon, in this meta getting in and getting out with impunity is valued and Regen is the definition of that, Spore is a fucking ATM machine for set-ups and momentum gaining, and the powders are always useful. Comes in as a big check to fighting-types and Chou, two big types of threat, and supports team well.
Scraggy should stay at B, DD is unexpected (and mostly unprepared for outside of Fairies and Fletch, if those are taken out then the bulk and power of Scraggers is actually quite nice. The main set however is Scarf, which usually merits the "Foo does it better" argument, but it ignores a crucial component: Moxie. Some things check Scarf Fighters (Pony, etc) but cant switch in, so the other player fodders something and gets the check in, Scraggy makes that impossible with moxie, not a huge niche but one that supports solid B nonetheless.
Trubish isn't good, gets smacked by a lot of common things and isn't super bulky, beating Foo cant be your only niche when you get u-turned out of and have no utility after
Honedge i've used 0 times as i haven't really had a reason to, idk if that's a testimony
Spinarak seems outclassed though if there's a reason for it to be C+ then i supposed there is, again abstaining
Tentacool should move up imo, pretty fast and bulky, can set up underrated tspikes, acid spray, Knockoff to wallbreak and suck makes it at least B-.
Numel: C+ is okay for it? idk
Piplup: is my favorite mon, also has a niche that's decent
MY TURN
Archen from A+ to A
Archen's ability to set rocks, defog them as well and be a general check to birdspam as well as smash through unsuspecting mons with it's high attack is generally a great reason of why it's so high. I believe it's fine where it's at. It's negatives being SR weak and HEAVILY reliant on it's ability not activating is strong negatives to take in. But BJ Archen remains a powerful wallbreaker with nigh high power to spare. Archen also can boast an itemless set to wreck havoc.
Ponyta from A+ to A
Ponyta is another who i feel is okay where it's at. It stops almost all physical attackers cold (Diglett a shit as well as BU Timburr and i guess other esoteric choices like BU SS Scraggy) the Special set which hits less harder and has to rely on Sunny Day to increase it's middling power in comparison with Flare Blitz also has the added benefit of healing you for much more. Solar Bea, while being a very powerful option also leaves you open to a weather changer to completely leave you with a wasted turn (Altho Snover is the ONLY one who can come in and not care about Solar Beam. Others have to manually set it.) all in all, Pony checks itself p hard and checks a lot of physical mons in turn. It's at a proper spot imo.
Mag from A+ to A
Magnemite is very iffy for me. On one hand it has one of the better set ups in SturdyJuice. Able to literally survive an onslaught and either gain momentum, kill off it's opponent, or even pp stall them. Also Mag boasts some real meat behind it's hits which for a voltturn mon is refreshing as well as it makes it easier to manage enemies who are severly weakened. The bad news however is that Mag needs it's item which Knock Off cockblocks as well as hazards ruining it's chances of it surviving. It's defenses arent the best... So Mag imo can drop a level. It's still a force in this meta, just not as power as it used to be.
Pancham from A to A-
This one is seriously iffy for me. You have the flexibility of Mienfoo, with bulk akin to Timburr yet you have no speed or priority. Shame. But Parting Shot gives your teammates from breathing room. ORAS did step up it's game to a higher level and while it's gotta choose between Gunk and ZHB, either option isnt wasted on it. I would like it to stay A.
Foongus from A to A-
Where have you been lately? You were the master of Spore... You used to trick Pawniard into trusting you and then blasting it with a mediocre HP Fight. You used to switch out and get 30% of your health... and now? Bait for Fletchling. Bait for Psychic Pory. Bait for A-
Scraggy from B to B-
Ever since Gen 6, the nasty fairies have plagued Scraggy's life and literally made him close to unusable. But dont fret... LC UU could use a sweeper like you! There arent any prominent fairies. Fairy moves however... B- please.
Trubish from B to B-
Another lord who has fallen from grace. With Pancham breathing down your neck and ignoring your ability, what will you do now? With Skrelp everywhere, what will you do now? LC UU could be your new home! Away from all those spooky scary things... B-
Honedge from C+ to C
You wish you were as good at your evolutions. Still, Mambo's Foon counter set is lordly and that's all that matters. C.
Spinarak from C+ to C
This is my favorite webber. It's got the best typing out of all of them in my opinion. Swarm Megahorn (if it hits) hurts. Sucker is awesome and TSpikes is also great if you're into that. C+ please.
Tentacool from C+ to B-
Tentacool how awesome are you? Thick on the special side? Hitting 17 Speed? Great coverage options like Giga / Knock Off / Acid Spray / TSpikes / Spin / Scald / DGleam oml get up there.
Numel from D to C+
No comment, i'll trust Rowan.
Piplup from Unranked to D
Didnt we already establish that Piplup is a lord bc bulky SR + Defog mon? Okay D Rank.
Smoochum from Unranked to D
NP with a usable movepool as well as hitting 17? Lets playtest but slap in D bc it's got my support. 85 base SpA looks like it's goin places. Im worried about having literally no Def but bleh lets be satisfied with what we got also RIP NO LOVELY KISSSSSSS
Archen's ability to set rocks, defog them as well and be a general check to birdspam as well as smash through unsuspecting mons with it's high attack is generally a great reason of why it's so high. I believe it's fine where it's at. It's negatives being SR weak and HEAVILY reliant on it's ability not activating is strong negatives to take in. But BJ Archen remains a powerful wallbreaker with nigh high power to spare. Archen also can boast an itemless set to wreck havoc.
Ponyta from A+ to A
Ponyta is another who i feel is okay where it's at. It stops almost all physical attackers cold (Diglett a shit as well as BU Timburr and i guess other esoteric choices like BU SS Scraggy) the Special set which hits less harder and has to rely on Sunny Day to increase it's middling power in comparison with Flare Blitz also has the added benefit of healing you for much more. Solar Bea, while being a very powerful option also leaves you open to a weather changer to completely leave you with a wasted turn (Altho Snover is the ONLY one who can come in and not care about Solar Beam. Others have to manually set it.) all in all, Pony checks itself p hard and checks a lot of physical mons in turn. It's at a proper spot imo.
Mag from A+ to A
Magnemite is very iffy for me. On one hand it has one of the better set ups in SturdyJuice. Able to literally survive an onslaught and either gain momentum, kill off it's opponent, or even pp stall them. Also Mag boasts some real meat behind it's hits which for a voltturn mon is refreshing as well as it makes it easier to manage enemies who are severly weakened. The bad news however is that Mag needs it's item which Knock Off cockblocks as well as hazards ruining it's chances of it surviving. It's defenses arent the best... So Mag imo can drop a level. It's still a force in this meta, just not as power as it used to be.
Pancham from A to A-
This one is seriously iffy for me. You have the flexibility of Mienfoo, with bulk akin to Timburr yet you have no speed or priority. Shame. But Parting Shot gives your teammates from breathing room. ORAS did step up it's game to a higher level and while it's gotta choose between Gunk and ZHB, either option isnt wasted on it. I would like it to stay A.
Foongus from A to A-
Where have you been lately? You were the master of Spore... You used to trick Pawniard into trusting you and then blasting it with a mediocre HP Fight. You used to switch out and get 30% of your health... and now? Bait for Fletchling. Bait for Psychic Pory. Bait for A-
Scraggy from B to B-
Ever since Gen 6, the nasty fairies have plagued Scraggy's life and literally made him close to unusable. But dont fret... LC UU could use a sweeper like you! There arent any prominent fairies. Fairy moves however... B- please.
Trubish from B to B-
Another lord who has fallen from grace. With Pancham breathing down your neck and ignoring your ability, what will you do now? With Skrelp everywhere, what will you do now? LC UU could be your new home! Away from all those spooky scary things... B-
Honedge from C+ to C
You wish you were as good at your evolutions. Still, Mambo's Foon counter set is lordly and that's all that matters. C.
Spinarak from C+ to C
This is my favorite webber. It's got the best typing out of all of them in my opinion. Swarm Megahorn (if it hits) hurts. Sucker is awesome and TSpikes is also great if you're into that. C+ please.
Tentacool from C+ to B-
Tentacool how awesome are you? Thick on the special side? Hitting 17 Speed? Great coverage options like Giga / Knock Off / Acid Spray / TSpikes / Spin / Scald / DGleam oml get up there.
Numel from D to C+
No comment, i'll trust Rowan.
Piplup from Unranked to D
Didnt we already establish that Piplup is a lord bc bulky SR + Defog mon? Okay D Rank.
Smoochum from Unranked to D
NP with a usable movepool as well as hitting 17? Lets playtest but slap in D bc it's got my support. 85 base SpA looks like it's goin places. Im worried about having literally no Def but bleh lets be satisfied with what we got also RIP NO LOVELY KISSSSSSS
I don't understand why you start that off with some arrogant comment about getting it to C+ or w/e, but you didn't really explain how those alternative options it has makes it that much usable as an alternative. First off its typing is horrible for something that should be leading, not to mention its typing... All leads slay spinarak or simply turn it into set up bait, sash can only lead, and eviolite hates SR/knock off. Its stabs are strong enough you realize they have poor af coverage, and toxic spikes are a lot less cool when the defoggers come in easy on you.
I'm only bringing out the bad points because I'm trying to show people how it isn't A+ worthy, just A, which is far from bad, I put pony on the same levels of viability as sprtizee and the other A rankers, its SR weak and can't really change up its sets, aside from LO which is only useful if someone only packs houndour or pony as their only pony answer. archen same reasons its better in theorymonning that pratice. Everyone knows what these guys do so why bring it up when it gets those people who don't posting nonsense (randoms if that wasn't clear). Viability rankings are completely subjective 9/10 so this objective bs doesn't cut it.
Nominating Archen be moved from A+ -> A.
Not that my opinion means much, but I fail to see how Archen is that high on the viability list. I feel like its weaknesses outmatch its advantages. Going through all that Archen has to offer:
Pros:
-Great attack.
-Decent speed.
-Earthquake to counter half of its weaknesses.
-Multi roles that it can perform.
-Diverse movepool to counter a variety of threats.
Archen has one of the best attack stats in LC. With 70 base speed, it can start off a game strong with either U-Turn to get momentum going, or just Knock Off to hinder an opponents Eviolite lead. With access to Earthquake, you're hitting three out of its five weaknesses, all of which accounts for threats such as Chinchou, Pawniard, Ponyta, and more. You can either run it as a straight attacker, or attempt to setup rocks/defog with Eviolite. It also has access to a LARGE variety of moves, which further helps it counter multiple threats in LC. A typical moveset could include things like Acrobatics, Rock Slide/Stone Edge, U-Turn, Knock Off, Earthquake, Stealth Rock, Defog, and many more. If that wasn't enough, it's also got odd moves that it can also utilize such as Aqua Tail, Dragon Claw, Facade (for status invokers), Iron Tail, and Shadow Claw. While you almost never see any of those moves on Archen, the ability to have them makes it quite diverse and opens up a lot of creativity for sets (unless you copy/paste from LC dex lul).
Cons:
-Awful defenses (which Eviolite doesn't help).
-An ability that hinders it and nothing more.
-25% damage on stealth rock.
-Weak to five types.
-No (good) priority moves.
While it may have strong attack power, its more of a glass cannon than anything. You can hit hard with it, especially since its Acrobatics is stronger than Fletchlings, but it also gets hit very hard even by sub-par attacks. If Archen gets hit with Knock Off, its almost entirely done for thanks to its ability. Berry Juice is the only thing that keeps Archen at enough power to blow through a mon or two before it dies. Any other item on it isn't good. Despite what some people may think, Eviolite isn't going to help defenses that bad. If it gets hit with a super effective move from any of its five weaknesses, even with Eviolite, its going to be hit to below that 50% mark, thus rendering it dead in the water. The only sets you'd run Eviolite on Archen with are more defensive sets, which will pretty much mean you'll get a Stealth Rock/Defog in and then die the next turn. If you wanted to setup Stealth Rock on something that'll be good for one turn, just use Golett. At least its adorable compared to Archen. Between its ability that feeds off low health and awful defenses, it also doesn't help that Stealth Rock makes that road to killing Archen even easier. Even with Defog, Archen is already hit with 25% damage which makes it very easy to OHKO it. A number of things can make it very easy, thanks to Archen being weak to five different things. A STAB Thunderbolt, Ice Beam/Punch, Iron Head, Rock Slide/Stone Edge, Scald/Waterfall, and plenty of others can ruin Archen. It's not unlikely to see any of these either. There's also the fact that Archen's only priority move is quick attack. If it had Fletchlings ability to give it priority to its Acrobatics, it'd be god. However, it doesn't have anything like that, or even like Mienfoo's Fake Out or Pawniard's Sucker Punch. You have to rely on that 70 base speed, which while it isn't bad, is outspeedable by plenty of A/B rank.
Just from my own look of things, it really doesn't seem like Archen falls into A+ material. If it didn't have its ability weighing it down, maybe I'd feel a little differently, but I think that it just isn't suited for A+ with so many weaknesses to its usage.
Not that my opinion means much, but I fail to see how Archen is that high on the viability list. I feel like its weaknesses outmatch its advantages. Going through all that Archen has to offer:
Pros:
-Great attack.
-Decent speed.
-Earthquake to counter half of its weaknesses.
-Multi roles that it can perform.
-Diverse movepool to counter a variety of threats.
Archen has one of the best attack stats in LC. With 70 base speed, it can start off a game strong with either U-Turn to get momentum going, or just Knock Off to hinder an opponents Eviolite lead. With access to Earthquake, you're hitting three out of its five weaknesses, all of which accounts for threats such as Chinchou, Pawniard, Ponyta, and more. You can either run it as a straight attacker, or attempt to setup rocks/defog with Eviolite. It also has access to a LARGE variety of moves, which further helps it counter multiple threats in LC. A typical moveset could include things like Acrobatics, Rock Slide/Stone Edge, U-Turn, Knock Off, Earthquake, Stealth Rock, Defog, and many more. If that wasn't enough, it's also got odd moves that it can also utilize such as Aqua Tail, Dragon Claw, Facade (for status invokers), Iron Tail, and Shadow Claw. While you almost never see any of those moves on Archen, the ability to have them makes it quite diverse and opens up a lot of creativity for sets (unless you copy/paste from LC dex lul).
Cons:
-Awful defenses (which Eviolite doesn't help).
-An ability that hinders it and nothing more.
-25% damage on stealth rock.
-Weak to five types.
-No (good) priority moves.
While it may have strong attack power, its more of a glass cannon than anything. You can hit hard with it, especially since its Acrobatics is stronger than Fletchlings, but it also gets hit very hard even by sub-par attacks. If Archen gets hit with Knock Off, its almost entirely done for thanks to its ability. Berry Juice is the only thing that keeps Archen at enough power to blow through a mon or two before it dies. Any other item on it isn't good. Despite what some people may think, Eviolite isn't going to help defenses that bad. If it gets hit with a super effective move from any of its five weaknesses, even with Eviolite, its going to be hit to below that 50% mark, thus rendering it dead in the water. The only sets you'd run Eviolite on Archen with are more defensive sets, which will pretty much mean you'll get a Stealth Rock/Defog in and then die the next turn. If you wanted to setup Stealth Rock on something that'll be good for one turn, just use Golett. At least its adorable compared to Archen. Between its ability that feeds off low health and awful defenses, it also doesn't help that Stealth Rock makes that road to killing Archen even easier. Even with Defog, Archen is already hit with 25% damage which makes it very easy to OHKO it. A number of things can make it very easy, thanks to Archen being weak to five different things. A STAB Thunderbolt, Ice Beam/Punch, Iron Head, Rock Slide/Stone Edge, Scald/Waterfall, and plenty of others can ruin Archen. It's not unlikely to see any of these either. There's also the fact that Archen's only priority move is quick attack. If it had Fletchlings ability to give it priority to its Acrobatics, it'd be god. However, it doesn't have anything like that, or even like Mienfoo's Fake Out or Pawniard's Sucker Punch. You have to rely on that 70 base speed, which while it isn't bad, is outspeedable by plenty of A/B rank.
Just from my own look of things, it really doesn't seem like Archen falls into A+ material. If it didn't have its ability weighing it down, maybe I'd feel a little differently, but I think that it just isn't suited for A+ with so many weaknesses to its usage.
I totally disagree with you tbh.
"Awful defenses (which Eviolite doesn't help)."
No, you're wrong. His bulk is decent, maybe he could be better but 55/45/45 is correct.
"While it may have strong attack power, its more of a glass cannon than anything"
It's not a glass cannon at all. Archen is a support most of the time, but he can stall with evio, and run offensive sets (so yeah, here this is a glass cannon). But most of the time it's wrong.
"A STAB Thunderbolt, Ice Beam/Punch, Iron Head, Rock Slide/Stone Edge, Scald/Waterfall, and plenty of others can ruin Archen."
Yeah, like a Abra's Psychic, and a Fletching's Acrobatics can ruins foo I guess. His typing is great, because he checks/counters a lot of mon in LC such as Ponyta, birds, and fighting types sometimes (Even if Knock Off is dangerous).
That's a great pokémon, and it deserves his rank imo.
"Awful defenses (which Eviolite doesn't help)."
No, you're wrong. His bulk is decent, maybe he could be better but 55/45/45 is correct.
"While it may have strong attack power, its more of a glass cannon than anything"
It's not a glass cannon at all. Archen is a support most of the time, but he can stall with evio, and run offensive sets (so yeah, here this is a glass cannon). But most of the time it's wrong.
"A STAB Thunderbolt, Ice Beam/Punch, Iron Head, Rock Slide/Stone Edge, Scald/Waterfall, and plenty of others can ruin Archen."
Yeah, like a Abra's Psychic, and a Fletching's Acrobatics can ruins foo I guess. His typing is great, because he checks/counters a lot of mon in LC such as Ponyta, birds, and fighting types sometimes (Even if Knock Off is dangerous).
That's a great pokémon, and it deserves his rank imo.
- Status