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I think Toxicroak should be moved to B rank. I have not seen for record a Pokemon who is being this underestimated. Toxicroak is, simply put, a total monster. First off, the most noteworthy thing is the amazing Attack stat in tandem with Gunk Shot, which basically OHKOes any non-resists or any Pokemon with no investment. However, the main reason I'm making this nomination is because Poison / Fighting with Dry Skin lets it counter a huge amount of Pokemon. In fact, it outright counters Keldeo, Azumarill (can't switch in cause play rough but still), non-Psychic Manaphy, Breloom, Crawdaunt, Mega Gyarados, Bisharp, and CroCune/Bro. Apart from that, it's got amazing priority in Sucker Punch, allowing you to weaken a good portion of attackers enough for you to finish them off with another Pokemon, as well as turn would-be checks like Latios into targets.
I'll post replays later (if I have to) but for now I think B- is really shitty because that's implying that it's on the level of Zapdos and Magneton, so I think a raise to better represent it is in place.
I'm glad I'm not the only one pushing for this, but theV8man made an excellent well-balanced point earlier which everybody getting involved in the Toxicroak discussion should look at:
I originally nominated Toxicroak to B- before, but I'm not sure if it can be considered a B ranking. It's not very splash-able; it will be pretty useless on some teams and a godsend for certain other teams. In my experience, it works especially well on sand teams, which tend to get recked by the exact Pokemon that Toxicroak checks (Azumarill, Keldeo, Bisharp, Breloom, Rain in general). Besides its ability to check certain high-level threats, there many teams that get demolished by 2+ Gunk Shot, which easily takes out several defensive threats after SR. As much as I love the frog, as Canned Bread said it's not really on the level of Omastar or Conkeldurr... I say it stays in B- for now.
That said, Toxicroak can function as a very scary wallbreaker what with it's being able to hit everything bar other Croaks at least neutrally and can check or counter some top-tier stuff like Azumarill, Lati@s (after a Swords Dance) and the aforementioned CroBro. It's a bit niche-y in that regard, but hell, I think it's a niche worth having.
Toxicroak has been brought up three times in this thread now - once by me, once by Thisbemyalt and now once again. It would be interesting to see the general consensus, but I think if we do discuss it more in-depth it should be treated more as a wallbreaker, not a sweeper. Because, y'know, it actually doesn't suck at wallbreaking.
You weren't ignored, a lot of people made posts lol. In the end, it was just decided that Toxicroak does not deserve a raise for now. I don't see why it has to be brought up so soon again when nothing has changed.
I'm glad I'm not the only one pushing for this, but theV8man made an excellent well-balanced point earlier which everybody getting involved in the Toxicroak discussion should look at:
That said, Toxicroak can function as a very scary wallbreaker what with it's being able to hit everything bar other Croaks at least neutrally and can check or counter some top-tier stuff like Azumarill, Lati@s (after a Swords Dance) and the aforementioned CroBro. It's a bit niche-y in that regard, but hell, I think it's a niche worth having.
Toxicroak has been brought up three times in this thread now - once by me, once by Thisbemyalt and now once again. It would be interesting to see the general consensus, but I think if we do discuss it more in-depth it should be treated more as a wallbreaker, not a sweeper. Because, y'know, it actually doesn't suck at wallbreaking.
So I really like croak as a sub user so you can force other mons into attacking you which helps with sucker also you make back health by drain punching very common mons such as heatran, bisharp, ttar, etc. SD is great for wallbreaking however I find this set is less useful up against offensive teams however the move can change based on what your team needs to beat. However having used croak quite a bit at this point I would like to point out some flaws. His main flaw is finding a way onto the field. Croak is frail and needs a good switch in however an immunity helps this quite well. Another flaw is that croak needs prior damage on a few mons to kill however this meta is in the favor of hazard stack so this helps, also many mons need prior except they cant hit about everything in the meta neutral.
So one thing I would like to address is this point where croak is not as good as other B mons according to some. My problem with this is many mons in B rank are not that great like conk who honestly sucks in this meta, I see tons of support for sylveon in B but honesly I think sylveon and croak are close in viability as croak can setup, has two great stabs in a steel/fairy meta, is not locked into a move, and has a nice fit on rain teams which are more popular in ORAS. Finally many of the mons in B might move up(Volc, weavile, and scizor all having been discussed) and cause a need for B- mons to move up croak and sylveon being the two discussed lately. I know thats no reason to move him up I include it just because the best B ranks are possibly moving which means croak fits even more so than now.
That said, Toxicroak can function as a very scary wallbreaker what with it's being able to hit everything bar other Croaks at least neutrally and can check or counter some top-tier stuff like Azumarill, Lati@s (after a Swords Dance) and the aforementioned CroBro. It's a bit niche-y in that regard, but hell, I think it's a niche worth having
I've seen you post this point about Toxicroak several times, and it really doesn't hold much weight. Unresisted or near unresisted coverage is nice, but it's not the end all be all of something being an effective sweeper/wallbreaker. Lando-T is a very strong check to Toxicroak, coverage be damned (outside of the obscure Ice Punch, which neuters the overall coverage or boosting ability). Other bulky things like Hippowdon, Gliscor and Mega Scizor also make good checks, because Toxicroak just can't hit 'em hard enough to break through. I also find that Toxicroak has an over reliance on Sucker Punch, and that in turn leads to over reliance on non-STAB priority, which tends to be a negative to me. There's a lot of breakers for fat balanced cores atm, and Toxicroak doesn't have enough have enough to stick out from the crowd imo. B- is probably where it should stay. Also, while it does check CroBro, the "Double Dance" and Tank variants beat it. CroBro isn't the best set for MegaBro atm.
You weren't ignored, a lot of people made posts lol. In the end, it was just decided that Toxicroak does not deserve a raise for now. I don't see why it has to be brought up so soon again when nothing has changed.
I saw alot more arguments for the rise than against it. I've already expressed my opinions twice saying I think it should rise, not textwalling again, so points in brief:
- Good Movepool
- Scald immunity allows it to beat bulky waters with no coverage for it, unlike others who get burned
- Covers it's huge psychic weakness with sucker punch and slower grounds/flyings are hit by ice punch (or thunderpunch for Skarm, Talon etc.)
- Makes a great rain check, can come in on a choiced mon, SD pon the switch and destroy with sucker punch while getting passive healing from the rain.
It isn't very bulky and has mediocre atk, but is good enough to rise. 4MSS is a slight issue, but with a wide movepool that often happens.
Getting a bit off topic, is there any reason why Empoleon is B- rn? iirc the only reason we used it is because of Greninja, and its niche is being a Defogger that doesnt get countered by Bisharp while being weak to basically the whole offensive meta.
Also, it has no recovery... This guy doesnt have a lot of redeeming features. Am I missing something?
I saw alot more arguments for the rise than against it. I've already expressed my opinions twice saying I think it should rise, not textwalling again, so points in brief:
- Good Movepool
- Scald immunity allows it to beat bulky waters with no coverage for it, unlike others who get burned
- Covers it's huge psychic weakness with sucker punch and slower grounds/flyings are hit by ice punch (or thunderpunch for Skarm, Talon etc.)
- Makes a great rain check, can come in on a choiced mon, SD pon the switch and destroy with sucker punch while getting passive healing from the rain.
It isn't very bulky and has mediocre atk, but is good enough to rise. 4MSS is a slight issue, but with a wide movepool that often happens.
-Its good movepool with options like thunderpunch and ice punch is not that significant when the only attacking moves you should be running are Gunk Shot / Poison Jab, Drain Punch, and Sucker Punch. The others make Toxicroak less effective overall.
-There are few bulky Water-types with no other coverage moves for it in OU. The only ones I can think of are Tentacruel, Empoleon (which has roar anyway), Reflect Type Starmie, and CroBro. Scald immunity is indeed nice though.
-A non STAB Sucker Punch is not that amazing even if it covers Toxicroak's Psychic-type weakness to an extent. It won't save you from Psychic Manaphy, Gallade and Will-O-Wisp Gardevoir, by far the best utility move Gardevoir can use at the moment.
-Toxicoak is actually not really a great rain check, the only thing it does is prevent the opponent from simply spamming Water moves. Swampert will still bop it, Kabutops 2HKOes with Stone Edge, Kingdra bops it with Dragon STAB, and Omastar bops it with Specs / Life Orb Ice Beam.
Don't get me wrong, I like Toxicroak. I just don't think it should rise because although it looks good on paper in practice its bulk and mediocre attack, as well as Landorus-T being everywhere really holds it back.
Getting a bit off topic, is there any reason why Empoleon is B- rn? iirc the only reason we used it is because of Greninja, and its niche is being a Defogger that doesnt get countered by Bisharp while being weak to basically the whole offensive meta.
Also, it has no recovery... This guy doesnt have a lot of redeeming features. Am I missing something?
while i generally agree with empoleon is largely where it is because of the specs set, having offensive presence while also countering latis, sylveon, DDD altaria, kingdra, heatran, and non-superpower azus. the defog set is largely outclassed, but i've used it effectively a few times. i think c+ is a reasonable place for empoleon, as the defog set has gotten noticeably worse since ninja left and the specs set is....cool i guess, but it leaves a lot to be desired because of its meh typing and being really easy to wear down without any reliable recovery
while i generally agree with empoleon is largely where it is because of the specs set, having offensive presence while also countering latis, sylveon, DDD altaria, kingdra, heatran, and non-superpower azus. the defog set is largely outclassed, but i've used it effectively a few times. i think c+ is a reasonable place for empoleon, as the defog set has gotten noticeably worse since ninja left and the specs set is....cool i guess, but it leaves a lot to be desired because of its meh typing and being really easy to wear down without any reliable recovery
I'm not exactly sure where Empoleon belongs, but I don't think the bold part makes sense. Empoleon was a great check to Greninja in X&Y, but in ORAS Greninja got Low Kick, and from that point on Empoleon was no longer a good check to it. It was B- during ORAS Greninja's rein, and I don't think the removal of a Pokemon it couldn't deal with well makes Empoleon worse in any way. With that said, Empoleon being B- during early ORAS could've just been a remnant of X&Y, I'm not sure.
Anyway, I definitely think Dragalge belongs in B- or B. Everyone knows about its offensive prowess, but its defensive prowess is definitely underrated. In using Dragalge you gain a check to Keldeo, special Altaria, Gengar, Thundurus, Clefable, Mega Charizard Y, Manaphy, Manectric, Rotom, Venusaur, Magnezone, and a lot more, all while being a powerhouse offensively. To boost, it's capable of setting Toxic Spikes, which have greatly grown in popularity (for their ability to cripple the large amount of setup sweepers, like CM Keldeo) recently, and can even spread the status to many unwilling members of the opponent's team with its decently powerful Dragon Tail. Unfortunately, it can't run Draco Meteor, Sludge Wave, Toxic Spikes, Dragon Tail, Scald, and Hidden Power Fire all on the same set, but it can pick the four its team needs the most without suffering too much.
I still support the raise from B+ to A- for Raikou, especially since now that the meta has settled a bit more it is not that easy to stick M-Manectric to offensive teams when you also want to use M-Metagross,M-Altaria,M-CharX,M-Gyara,etc.
Raikou may seem a little bit weak even for a Choice Specs user, but remember that because he outspeeds a lot of the unboosted meta he can have sometimes the luxury to 2OHKO somethings unlike other mons who need to straight OHKO because they are outspeed or are OHKOed in return.
It has favorable matchups against a lot of the top ranks, which helps him to build more effectively momentum since it is difficult to change into him, some of the pokemon who have an speed tie or outrun him(Starmie, Tornadus-T,M-Sceptile) also lose to him.
I think A- rank fits him pretty well, is a mon that can build great momentum and threat a good portion of the best mons (especially on incoming which helps him to do his job more effectively), he is not going to be higher than A- because he is kinda a bit reliant on prediction to do his job on some situations and item dependant, but are few flaws compared to the benefits of using him.
Backing Dragalge for B- as a bare minimum. Aragorn covered most of what I would say, but I wanted to highlight how useful this baby is against almost every playstyle. It's a huge help eating up hits from offensive teams, where it's typing and bulk help it eat up hits from mons like Keldeo, Heatran, Thundurus, Zard-Y, and Manectric, and those teams struggle to switch into it's attacks, even if they do happen to resist them. It puts huge pressure on defensive cores to remove TSpikes while avoiding those nuclear Draco Meteors, and while it doesn't run them over by itself, it puts in a ton of work. It's just so solid against so many different playstyles, and something so consistently good should be ranked appropriately.
I'd like to nominate Rotom-H for C+ ranking. I think this thing is highly underrated due to the popularity of its washing machine brethren.
This thing has fantastic typing and sports the same great bulk its other form has. Fire/Electric nets you 2 status immunities while also soaking up both Volt Switches & U-Turns.
Rotom checks or counters the following Pokes with great ease;
Landorus (lacking Rockslide/Stone Edge), Scizor, Skarmory, Talonflame, Ferrothorn, Bisharp, M-Pinsir, Thundurus, M-Manetric (They just wall each other but M-Man doesn't like burn), most Jirachi, Magnezone, most Mamoswine. Spreading burns or t-waving switch-ins is Rotom-H's job and it's very effective at doing this.
Rotom-H also doesn't mind switching in on most Fairy types that typically pack a Fire attack as coverage.
Long Story Short:
Rotom-H is an excellent pivot due to its key resistances to increasingly common attacking types in the current meta-game. Doesn't afraid of Volt-Turn cores, absorbs annoying Wisps and Waves and allows you to bring in your homies unscathed with relatively slow Volt Switches.
Really don't think Rotom-H should rise, at all. A defensive pivot that is weak to rocks with no reliable recovery, worse typing than Rotom-W, meaning that it can't switch into Scalds, can't beat drum Azu in a pinch, and can't handle Sand Offence like its Water counterpart. It has Overheat instead of Hydro, meaning it has to drop its SpA (this really sucks vs. set up stuff) if it wants to get off a decent hit or anything against Electric resists.
Also, all the stuff you listed barring like, uh, Freeze Dry Mamo, Ferrothorn and Mega Manectric (kinda, seeing as it is just Volt Switching on you) are all handled by Rotom-W. In fact, I'm pretty sure fast SD Scizor has a better chance to kill with +2 Superpower after rocks vs. Bug Bite on Rotom-W after rocks. Only reason I can see someone using Heat over Wash is if your team needs a more reliable way to beat ZardY and Ferro. You can fill me in with the pros it has over Wash if you want though, I haven't used it since early X/Y.
Editing this in here because it's pretty big: Rotom-H also gets completely rolled by Rain, which is awful and one of the things you'll want Wash over Heat for
Editing this again because there's no point in posting again:
Wanna know what people think about Lando-I's current ranking. I got completely rocked by RP on ladder earlier and I've heard a few people hyping its performance atm. Wondering if people think it's fitting for S.
I kind of agree of Rotom-H not rising,Fire/Electric is kind of cool as offensive goes, the problem is that a pivot taking 25% of his health because of SR and with no reliable recovery will be very pressed when trying to build momentum or cripple another mon, even worse when there are things like Rotom-W/Magnezone/Raikou/M-Manectric/Lando-T or even Cobalion who can be used as pivots.
I find it very funny that people have consistently mentioned Lucario's SD set as the reasoning for being moved down, when NP is the superior set in this meta for a vast amount of reasons:
The main reason NP is better in this meta, is due to being much more efficient at breaking down Bulky / Balance teams, who usually feature these mons
What can Luke set up on?;
• Lucario can pretty much set up on anything thats very passive, or cant hit him hard enough. Ie; Sableye / Mew / Celebi / Ferrothorn / Tar (pls scout for Scarf) / Fire Punch-less Rachi / Low Kick-less Bisharp. Bluffing the E-Speed and going for NP to try an catch one of the aforementioned mons is also a very slick tactic. If you're real, you'd set up on Rotom
Why Aura Sphere>Vacuum Wave? (or vice versa);
• Aura Sphere is nice for destroying Tran / Ferro / Rotom / Skarm @ +2. However, Vacuum Wave gives Luke a much better matchup vs Offense. If you're weak to mons like M-Lopunny / Rush Drill / Bisharp / M-Gyara, run Vacuum Wave
• Base 90 is a cool number for outrunning base 80's such as Gard / Gallade pre-evo, and Altaria, who Lucario beats pretty nicely. Base 100s like Gard / Zard / Lando-I like running Modest or Adamant respectively, which really just helps Luke
• Alot of common mons on Offense and Balance really appreciate Luke's wallbreaking capabilities (Ie; Lopunny / Gallade / Zard X / Gyara forms / Talon / Aero) which other quote on quote "Wallbreakers" cant do as easily
In conclusion, Lucario doesnt have much oppurtunity cost simply because its extremely good at dismantling Stall & Balance cores, and this is due to the NP set not being expected. This set also doesnt suffer from 4MSS nowhere near as hard as the physical variant. Its as simple as running Aura Sphere if you want to dent Tran / Ferro / Skarm / Quagsire immeidately, or Vacuum Wave to inherently have a better matchup vs HO. Offense really benefits from Luke being able to kill these prominent Defensive mons. A Bisharp check that also has prio is really clutch as well. Now, of course, Luke has a few downsides. Mainly:
• Having trouble dealing with AV Torn and being checked nicely by Tran if you opt to go without Aura Sphere, but any competent player wont be switching those mons in unless they know the set Luke is running, which is a very nice mind game this mon has in its favor
• The all so common Scarf Landorus, Lopunny (although Wave can RK if weakened), Keldeo. Pretty much anything faster than it are naturally bad matchups
Calcs & replays below [:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 374-442 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 277-326 (82.9 - 97.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 277-328 (91.1 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 499-590 (126.6 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 294-347 (97 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 407-481 (96.9 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 394-464 (103.6 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 499-590 (126.6 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 265-313 (73.8 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Celebi: 304-359 (75.4 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 299-354 (97.3 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 286-339 (81.2 - 96.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
#Rekt / Bop / Gone / Destruction / Blown the fuck back. All dat
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 127-151 (38.3 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Eh, still damage
Other notes:
You can run Modest to guarantee OHKOs on pretty much all these mons. But being outsped by shit like Modest Gard and other base 80's like Pinsir pre-evo kinda sucks ]:
I find it very funny that people have consistently mentioned Lucario's SD set as the reasoning for being moved down, when NP is the superior set in this meta for a vast amount of reasons:
The main reason NP is better in this meta, is due to being much more efficient at breaking down Bulky / Balance teams, who usually feature these mons
What can Luke set up on?;
• Lucario can pretty much set up on anything thats very passive, or cant hit him hard enough. Ie; Sableye / Mew / Celebi / Ferrothorn / Tar (pls scout for Scarf) / Fire Punch-less Rachi / Low Kick-less Bisharp. Bluffing the E-Speed and going for NP to try an catch one of the aforementioned mons is also a very slick tactic. If you're real, you'd set up on Rotom
Why Aura Sphere>Vacuum Wave? (or vice versa);
• Aura Sphere is nice for destroying Tran / Ferro / Rotom / Skarm @ +2. However, Vacuum Wave gives Luke a much better matchup vs Offense. If you're weak to mons like M-Lopunny / Rush Drill / Bisharp / M-Gyara, run Vacuum Wave
• Base 90 is a cool number for outrunning base 80's such as Gard / Gallade pre-evo, and Altaria, who Lucario beats pretty nicely. Base 100s like Gard / Zard / Lando-I like running Modest or Adamant respectively, which really just helps Luke
• Alot of common mons on Offense and Balance really appreciate Luke's wallbreaking capabilities (Ie; Lopunny / Gallade / Zard X / Gyara forms / Talon / Aero) which other quote on quote "Wallbreakers" cant do as easily
In conclusion, Lucario doesnt have much oppurtunity cost simply because its extremely good at dismantling Stall & Balance cores, and this is due to the NP set not being expected. Offense really benefits from Luke being able to kill these prominent Defensive mons. A Bisharp check that also has prio is really clutch as well. Now, of course, Luke has a few downsides. Mainly:
• Having trouble dealing with AV Torn and being checked nicely by Tran if you opt to go without Aura Sphere, but any competent player wont be switching those mons in unless they know the set Luke is running, which is a very nice mind game this mon has in its favor
• The all so common Scarf Landorus, Lopunny (although Wave can RK if weakened), Keldeo. Pretty much anything faster than it are naturally bad matchups
Calcs & replays below [:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 374-442 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 277-326 (82.9 - 97.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 277-328 (91.1 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 499-590 (126.6 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 294-347 (97 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 407-481 (96.9 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 394-464 (103.6 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 499-590 (126.6 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 265-313 (73.8 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Celebi: 304-359 (75.4 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 299-354 (97.3 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 286-339 (81.2 - 96.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
#Rekt / Bop / Gone / Destruction / Blown the fuck back. All dat
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 127-151 (38.3 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Eh, still damage
Other notes:
You can run Modest to guarantee OHKOs on pretty much all these mons. But being outsped by shit like Modest Gard and other base 80's like Pinsir pre-evo kinda sucks ]:
Definitely agree with this,Lucario is an excellent Stallbreaker but doesn't get the credit it deserves.It doesn't really have many reliable switch ins and is in fact,difficult to revenge kill.Like it was said above,Lucario is very good against Balance and Stall too and surely deserves moving up the ranks
I find it very funny that people have consistently mentioned Lucario's SD set as the reasoning for being moved down, when NP is the superior set in this meta for a vast amount of reasons:
The main reason NP is better in this meta, is due to being much more efficient at breaking down Bulky / Balance teams, who usually feature these mons
What can Luke set up on?;
• Lucario can pretty much set up on anything thats very passive, or cant hit him hard enough. Ie; Sableye / Mew / Celebi / Ferrothorn / Tar (pls scout for Scarf) / Fire Punch-less Rachi / Low Kick-less Bisharp. Bluffing the E-Speed and going for NP to try an catch one of the aforementioned mons is also a very slick tactic. If you're real, you'd set up on Rotom
Why Aura Sphere>Vacuum Wave? (or vice versa);
• Aura Sphere is nice for destroying Tran / Ferro / Rotom / Skarm @ +2. However, Vacuum Wave gives Luke a much better matchup vs Offense. If you're weak to mons like M-Lopunny / Rush Drill / Bisharp / M-Gyara, run Vacuum Wave
• Base 90 is a cool number for outrunning base 80's such as Gard / Gallade pre-evo, and Altaria, who Lucario beats pretty nicely. Base 100s like Gard / Zard / Lando-I like running Modest or Adamant respectively, which really just helps Luke
• Alot of common mons on Offense and Balance really appreciate Luke's wallbreaking capabilities (Ie; Lopunny / Gallade / Zard X / Gyara forms / Talon / Aero) which other quote on quote "Wallbreakers" cant do as easily
In conclusion, Lucario doesnt have much oppurtunity cost simply because its extremely good at dismantling Stall & Balance cores, and this is due to the NP set not being expected. This set also doesnt suffer from 4MSS nowhere near as hard as the physical variant. Its as simple as running Aura Sphere if you want to dent Tran / Ferro / Skarm / Quagsire immeidately, or Vacuum Wave to inherently have a better matchup vs HO. Offense really benefits from Luke being able to kill these prominent Defensive mons. A Bisharp check that also has prio is really clutch as well. Now, of course, Luke has a few downsides. Mainly:
• Having trouble dealing with AV Torn and being checked nicely by Tran if you opt to go without Aura Sphere, but any competent player wont be switching those mons in unless they know the set Luke is running, which is a very nice mind game this mon has in its favor
• The all so common Scarf Landorus, Lopunny (although Wave can RK if weakened), Keldeo. Pretty much anything faster than it are naturally bad matchups
Calcs & replays below [:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 374-442 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 277-326 (82.9 - 97.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 277-328 (91.1 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 499-590 (126.6 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 294-347 (97 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 407-481 (96.9 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 394-464 (103.6 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 499-590 (126.6 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 265-313 (73.8 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Celebi: 304-359 (75.4 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 299-354 (97.3 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 286-339 (81.2 - 96.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
#Rekt / Bop / Gone / Destruction / Blown the fuck back. All dat
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 127-151 (38.3 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Eh, still damage
Other notes:
You can run Modest to guarantee OHKOs on pretty much all these mons. But being outsped by shit like Modest Gard and other base 80's like Pinsir pre-evo kinda sucks ]:
The main reason the SD set is listed is because of Extremespeed and the overall higher power behind Lucario's moves on the Physical side. While I could see a Special set with some viability, Extremespeed's higher priority and Power (even accounting for STAB) makes it a more effective tool and makes Lucario harder to stop when the opponent can't get it with Talonflame, one of offense's most viable cleaners/revenge killers.
That said, as noted, the Physical set is mainly ranked for cleaning offense. I am intrigued by how that Special Set would fare against Stall on the whole, especially since it doesn't fear priority burns.
I'm on mobile right now, but I question some of the mons you listed to set up on. Other than that, while both nasty plot and sword dance are viable, swords dance is more threatening to very dangerous mons like M-Diancie or T-flame depending on your priority of choice. (I know Diancie dies to unboosted bp, but a swords dance e-speed is still not something it likes to take). I'm not for luke dropping, I just wanted to point out some issues I found with what you are saying.
I'm on mobile right now, but I question some of the mons you listed to set up on. Other than that, while both nasty plot and sword dance are viable, swords dance is more threatening to very dangerous mons like M-Diancie or T-flame depending on your priority of choice. (I know Diancie dies to unboosted bp, but a swords dance e-speed is still not something it likes to take). I'm not for luke dropping, I just wanted to point out some issues I found with what you are saying.
Yea, I see what you're saying. Thats another downside I forgot to list. Running the special set means it has to deal with not having the ability to check and / or beat mons like Diancie / Talon. The main reason to run NP, as I stated in my original post, is the high reward and prominence of physically defensive walls, which the SD set really just struggles to break. Its main prio options in E-Speed / BP / Vacuum Wave let it accomplish different things though. Ie; E-Speed and / or BP is good for RK'ing Gard / Diancie, while Vacuum Wave is very nice for Rush Drill / Lopunny / avoiding Bisharps' Sucker.
So yes, while E-Speed & BP are useful for these mons specifically, Wave is also a neat revenge killing tool for said mons.
Edit: Those mons I listed are indeed set up fodder, because they are passive mons. Sableye cant do much with Shadow Ball unless boosted, all Mew can do is Knock Off or burn (which special Luke really does not care about), Celebi without Earth Power is also set up bait, Ferro's Gyro does nothing etc etc
I agree with everything else you’ve said, and forgive me if I'm milking it but I must respectfully disagree with this bit. What I mean by the whole “neutral coverage” thing I keep harking on about is that it gets it in three moves, leaving it an option to boost and boost well. It’s not the be-all/end-all, no, otherwise I’d also be ranting about a lot of other things, but in Croak’s case this is huge because it can’t hit as many walls as it would like for SE - it's fortunate none can resist it and it can at least do something. I’ve got all the maths I think I’m going to need to make this point.
And yes, all calcs assume a Swords Dance boost because it’s not really that hard to get against most of these. Many of these Pokemon still get a decent chunk taken out of them even without the boost. Vs Hippowdon
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 212-251 (50.4 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
*Not the best example, I know. Hippo OHKOs in return, but it’s still taking a lot. Vs Chesnaught
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 608-717 (160 - 188.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO Vs Slowbro
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 331-391 (84 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock Vs Mega Slowbro
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 227-269 (57.6 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Vs Chansey
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 806-951 (125.5 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO Vs Skarmory
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 173-204 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
*this one’s also a bit duff, but hey, got to be thorough Vs Ferrothorn
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 408-484 (115.9 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO Vs Gliscor
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 173-204 (48.8 - 57.6%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
*yeah, I’ll give you that one as well. Gliscor OHKOs. Vs Mega Scizor
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 208-246 (60.6 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Vs Lando-T, just for fun and in the name of fair and balanced
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 142-168 (37.1 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If I missed any you want to see, tell me and I will add it.
Obviously there are better mon for what it does that pull more weight against other teams and it doesn’t last long. Some of these walls probably won't stay in, either, and then you're screwed. With everything else you wrote you have made me rethink if it’s worth the nom a little bit. Maybe if Rain gets more prominent we'll see a rise. 'Til then...
Busy with other stuff but just a quick comment from myself I rather not see Toxicroak rise. It's effective at certain things like soft checking stuff like Bisharp, dark spam, fairies, and access to priority but there is a lot of situations it finds itself in where it's forced in precarious situations that it needs to come out of safely to continually succeed. You see these a lot of general balanced builds that have an offensive core such as ones who are using Psychic Manaphy, Char-X, Lando-T and then a lot of forms of offense such as Thunder Wave Thundurus, CM Lando, Roost Latios. Its speed tier sort of makes it a bit inconsistent against these "50/50s" so to speak. I don't find it any more effective than Lucario and I don't think Lucario should rise either. They're both fine in B-.
Unsure of where it'll wind up, but I'm going to go ahead and nominate Forretress
to C+ from unranked because its Gen 5 set is legit on hyper offensive teams now that Custap Berry is released (note that it has competition with Skarmory for the same team slot).
I agree with everything else you’ve said, and forgive me if I'm milking it but I must respectfully disagree with this bit. What I mean by the whole “neutral coverage” thing I keep harking on about is that it gets it in three moves, leaving it an option to boost and boost well. It’s not the be-all/end-all, no, otherwise I’d also be ranting about a lot of other things, but in Croak’s case this is huge because it can’t hit as many walls as it would like for SE - it's fortunate none can resist it and it can at least do something. I’ve got all the maths I think I’m going to need to make this point.
And yes, all calcs assume a Swords Dance boost because it’s not really that hard to get against most of these. Many of these Pokemon still get a decent chunk taken out of them even without the boost. Vs Hippowdon
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 212-251 (50.4 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
*Not the best example, I know. Hippo OHKOs in return, but it’s still taking a lot. Vs Chesnaught
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 608-717 (160 - 188.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO Vs Slowbro
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 331-391 (84 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock Vs Mega Slowbro
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 227-269 (57.6 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Vs Chansey
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 806-951 (125.5 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO Vs Skarmory
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 173-204 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
*this one’s also a bit duff, but hey, got to be thorough Vs Ferrothorn
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 408-484 (115.9 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO Vs Gliscor
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 173-204 (48.8 - 57.6%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
*yeah, I’ll give you that one as well. Gliscor OHKOs. Vs Mega Scizor
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 208-246 (60.6 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Vs Lando-T, just for fun and in the name of fair and balanced
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 142-168 (37.1 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
If I missed any you want to see, tell me and I will add it.
Obviously there are better mon for what it does that pull more weight against other teams and it doesn’t last long. Some of these walls probably won't stay in, either, and then you're screwed. With everything else you wrote you have made me rethink if it’s worth the nom a little bit. Maybe if Rain gets more prominent we'll see a rise. 'Til then...
AM Edit: Deleted this response.
Forretress can "go out with a bang"
252+ Atk Forretress Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 279-329 (93.3 - 110%)
252+ Atk Forretress Explosion vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 266-313 (101.5 - 119.4%)
252+ Atk Forretress Explosion vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 202-238 (52.6 - 61.9%)
It's basically a stronger Brave Bird (brave bird does not get to ohko Latios after a life orb damage or offensive Starmie) other than that it doesn't give you more from Skarmory (actually Skarmory has Taunt), though if you're paranoid against defog users it might be an okay choice for your Hyper Offensive Team
Unsure of where it'll wind up, but I'm going to go ahead and nominate Forretress
to C+ from unranked because its Gen 5 set is legit on hyper offensive teams now that Custap Berry is released (note that it has competition with Skarmory for the same team slot).
Honestly, C+ seems a bit high for it. Sure, it gets one +1 turn with SR, but why use him over Skarmory? If something is mostly outclassed by something and has like 2 niches over it, imo it shouldnt go higher than C-. The Gen 5 set doesnt even run Volt Switch, which means less momentum. IMO Forretress should start in baby steps because iirc we nominated Serp to C rank with its Contrary set at first.
Seriously, I'd see no reason to run this over Custap Skarm; and especially because Skarm can not only set up hazards, but remove other hazards, too. Still, I'm not saying it should be unranked, but C- should suffice. I guess it has some things over Skarm (Explosion, Volt Switch) But its really small overall. Still, it should be ranked.
Forretress can "go out with a bang"
252+ Atk Forretress Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 279-329 (93.3 - 110%)
252+ Atk Forretress Explosion vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 266-313 (101.5 - 119.4%)
252+ Atk Forretress Explosion vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 202-238 (52.6 - 61.9%)
It's basically a stronger Brave Bird (brave bird does not get to ohko Latios after a life orb damage or offensive Starmie) other than that it doesn't give you more from Skarmory (actually Skarmory has Taunt), though if you're paranoid against defog users it might be an okay choice for your Hyper Offensive Team
Who would switch Latios into Forretress? It has Gyro Ball, and it can Volt Switch into a Bisharp for example. If anything, you should switch to a bulky Steel/Gengar.
