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Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

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Ok, it's about time I commented on the rest of the slate. Even with its 4x Dark resistance, Sucker Punch Po has got a hard time beating two of the other 'mons, but I reckon it has a chance.

Mold Breaker Shuckle: I can't really see the appeal to be honest. The only bonus it has is Toxicing Sableye as far as I can tell - or forcing Stall teams to take a turn maybe removing rocks. The problem is that Sableye is generally on stall teams at the moment, who just don't give a rat's a*se about Sticky Web.

Unaware Umbreon: I really like this actually; I set like Curse/Payback/Moonlight/Heal Bell / RestTalk could bring back currently unpopular fighting 'mons like Terrakion and Heracross, and make Mega Gallade instantly more popular. Combined with Clefable, it would be a bitch of a core to take down. The main problem would be the fact that it's massive taunt-bait and a lack of initial power. Still, it would definitely be viable in OU.

Nasty Plot Noivern: With a good typing resistant to most forms of priority, this seems like an incredible nomination. I think though that in practice 85/80/80 puts it in danger of being like Weavile - just too frail to really set up. It would make the specs set an absolute beast though as people stay in to stop it setting up. It also has to rely on shit accuracy moves and is weak to Rocks, so I'm not so sure. The popularity of Scarf Lando, Mega Metagross and Talon, and the rising popularity of Jirachi would hinder its progress. It would still probably get to OU status for its impressive speed though.
 
I'm not loving relying on Hurricane as a main attack on a set-up sweeper like Noivern. One miss and that thing is toast. You'd have to have Dragon Pulse as your main, consistent attack, which is less impressive in general. I like the boost, but I don't know how viable it would actually make Noivern in OU.

Of this slate, I'm torn between Panda and Umbreon but leaning toward the latter.
 
I feel like Noivern would do quite well on rain teams. Kabutops and Swampert get a teammate with 4x grass resistance to their 4x weakness, and they can switch into most attacks that can KO Noivern. Plus, with rain up it can spam Hurricane without any worry of missing. Outside of rain teams, I'm not too sure how it'd hold up. It does have Flamethrower, and at +2 it OHKO's Megagross so it can't switch in.

@ Hogg: I'm pretty sure you'd want to run Draco Meteor over Dragon Pulse. Power up to +2, and if there's something you need to nuke, nuke it and you still have a decent powered Draco Meteor to fire off afterwards.

@ ksr15: Weavile isn't much of a threat, and neither is Mamoswine.

252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 259-305 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 220-259 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 640-754 (227.7 - 268.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 239-283 (85 - 100.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 380-448 (105.8 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 468-551 (130.3 - 153.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 321-380 (89.4 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

They can revenge it after it kills a mon, but they can't switch in if Noivern does most anything aside from Nasty Plot. In addition, if I remember right each submission is supposed to be judged solely against vanilla OU and not other theorymons, so please don't use things like Moxie Weavile for arguments.

Noivern is definitely looking viable, the question is whether being an excellent rain abuser and potential somewhat unreliable sweeper outside of rain stacks up against Pangoro and Umbreon.
 
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Enigami said:
In addition, if I remember right each submission is supposed to be judged solely against vanilla OU and not other theorymons, so please don't use things like Moxie Weavile for arguments.
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This is something I do want to discuss. As we now do have an actual ladder and playable metagame for theorymon, wouldn't it make sense to judge nominations against already-accepted noms?
 
Kurona said:
This is something I do want to discuss. As we now do have an actual ladder and playable metagame for theorymon, wouldn't it make sense to judge nominations against already-accepted noms?
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No. I've addressed this in the past, but maybe you haven't been here that long. Essentially, this thread is meant to operate as if it were part of OU, not OM. Thus, we only talk about OU as it is.
 
Sun King said:
No. I've addressed this in the past, but maybe you haven't been here that long. Essentially, this thread is meant to operate as if it were part of OU, not OM. Thus, we only talk about OU as it is.
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Oh. My bad. sorry about that. I'll keep that in mind for future posts.
 
Enigami said:
@ ksr15: Weavile isn't much of a threat, and neither is Mamoswine.
They can revenge it after it kills a mon, but they can't switch in if Noivern does most anything aside from Nasty Plot.
.
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What if you used a slower (ie most mons) u-turn to bring weavile/mamoswine in? Not saying it's always possible to do, but it would somewhat limit what it could set up on. this might be a little too specific, but as I'm kinda new to theorymons, I thought I'd bring it up.
btw, i'm just playing devil's advocate. I totally think NP noviernin is awesome.
 
Nasty Plot Noivern sounds pretty cool to me. It has a great speed tier, and a bunch of great moves that go well with nasty plot such as dragon pulse, flamethrower, air slash (cool flinch chance!), boomburst(!), focus blast, hidden powers. Noivern's main drawback was that it hit like a wet paper bag. With nasty plot, it can assume the role of a late game sweeper. Noivern can also use frisk to see if it is safe to set up (for example, seeing if the opposing lando is carrying scarf) or attack, and it also has infiltrator, so you can't even hide behind a substitute!
All in all, nasty plot noivern has a mediocre special attack, and this fixes it, turning it into a great sweeper. It has good speed, nasty plot, and a great movepool.
This is probably my new favorite :] (sorry panda)
edit: also why do I keep thinking noivern's ears are it's eyes
 
ksr15 said:
What if you used a slower (ie most mons) u-turn to bring weavile/mamoswine in? Not saying it's always possible to do, but it would somewhat limit what it could set up on. this might be a little too specific, but as I'm kinda new to theorymons, I thought I'd bring it up.
btw, i'm just playing devil's advocate. I totally think NP noviernin is awesome.
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Its a good point, I hadn't thought of that. When I looked into it though, its not a major problem. Noivern resists U-Turn/is neutral to Volt-Switch and can take a good chunk out of OU's slow voltturn users. Noivern can also simply just switch out to something that resists Ice Shard if they do manage to safely switch in. Even then, the most common slow voltturn teammate for Weavile/Mamoswine is Magnezone, who is clean OHKO'd by unboosted Life Orb Focus Blast. I don't think Noivern will be threatened by this scenario very often.
 
More problematic is that if someone has a Mamoswine or Weavile on their team, Noivern will never be able to sweep, since at most it can take out one 'mon and then get chased out by Ice Shard. Between rocks and LO damage and any damage it takes while setting up a NP, that makes them pretty good checks to the bat. (Not that that's a surprise - they're good offensive checks to a lot of things.)
 
Nasty Plot Noivern would have to rely on screen support to help it stay healthy. But even then Weavile will still OHKO it with Ice Punch.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Noivern through Reflect: 361-429 (116 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Outside of that, Noivern would have to be careful of Talonflame, as Brave Bird will definately OHKO it after rocks or any sort of recoil damage. Specs Sylveon would devastate Noivern even with a NP boost. Noivern would have to rely on Hurricane to do any sort of decent damage to Sylveon. And even that takes a massive hit on damage if someone happens to use an Assault Vest Variant:

+2 252 SpA Noivern Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 234-276 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Noivern Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Sylveon: 156-184 (39.7 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

(I think you can guess what Sylveon would respond with, and that it'll be a OHKO)
I think Noivern is far too frail to be running Nasty Plot, as it's hardly going to find opportunities to set up. It's going to have to rely on speed control, screens support, or Baton passed defensive boosts to keep itself in play long enough to get a nasty plot and perform a significant sweep.
 
I don't think AV Sylveon is relevant, looking at the usage statistics not even 5% of Sylveons use it. Sylveon has to deal with occasional confusion hax as well. But yeah, mons like Sylveon, Talonflame and Weavile would be a big problem for it. I think its a good thing though, if it could sweep all of OU without team support after one boost then we'd have a serious problem.
 
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hoo teh fuk uses AV Sylv?

In all seriousness guys--OBVIOUSLY NP Noivern is gonna have issues with priority. Every sweeper that doesn't have it has issues with that. Mega Gallade is still crazy viable despite weaknesses to SmogBird. M-Diancie is still bonkers good despite serious weaknesses to Bullet Punch.

Play to Noivern's strengths and it'll get you there. I don't need to post more calcs. At +2 nothing is gonna stop it barring hax.

EDIT: inb4 Blobs. They wall everything not named Landorus.
 
Hogg said:
More problematic is that if someone has a Mamoswine or Weavile on their team, Noivern will never be able to sweep, since at most it can take out one 'mon and then get chased out by Ice Shard. Between rocks and LO damage and any damage it takes while setting up a NP, that makes them pretty good checks to the bat. (Not that that's a surprise - they're good offensive checks to a lot of things.)
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That's why you ko weavile, t-flame, and mamoswine before you try to sweep. neither of them are all that durable, and can easily be taken out by team mates. then you should be able to wreak havoc!
 
One thing I think worth noting about Noivern is that it's primary offensive checks (Mamo and Weav) are less common and slightly less viable than the Priority based checks other mons worry about (Talonflame in Gallade's case, Scizor and Megagross for Diancie) and don't have as easy a time switching into its moves (Weavile is frail enough that it HAS to be a Revenge or Voltturn entry, and Mamoswine lacks recovery and has to watch for Focus Blast).

The low accuracy of its reliable moves does suck, but I don't think hax should weigh that heavily on viability. Noivern's speed also means that any check has to be able to stomach at least 2 hits (possibly more if they somehow don't OHKO back), which is manageable at +0 and a bit of a tall order at +2. Most of the calcs below will not be the "ideal" coverage move, but I want to demonstrate how hard Noivern hits even on a mispredict. Won't post obvious cases like slower mons OHKO'd by a move regardless (like Venusaur or Celebi), mostly demonstrating resistance AND good bulk are needed to switch in if this thing boosts

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (That's resisted, neutral OHKO's no question)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 300-354 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 290-343 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 399-472 (131.2 - 155.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 195-230 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Focus Blast vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 317-374 (95.1 - 112.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Focus Blast vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 127-149 (36 - 42.3%) -- 94.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal (decent strength, and Physically Defensive is 98.8% 2HKO'd with rocks)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 164-192 (42.5 - 49.8%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 203-239 (52.7 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Combo has a chance to 2HKO Spe. Def Tran)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 181-213 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Scarftran, which speed ties without Timid and does 65% at best with Flash Cannon in return)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 166-196 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 165-195 (43.1 - 51%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(Not ideal, but Scarf then has a 50/50 of U-Turning into something to get hit, or trying SE for the OHKO)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 354-417 (99.1 - 116.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Scarfchomp can revenge, but not check)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 230-270 (81.8 - 96%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (And Mega Mane is a Volt Switcher, so chip damage is an inevitability)

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 190-224 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 161-191 (46.9 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 242-285 (80.3 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (a check of the outspeeding nature)

Noivern admittedly has trouble boosting, but this thing can shred most teams with that speed tier if it does get that boost and has priority under control.
 
hey i'm back :D
here my thoughts
unaware umbreon: is a good add only for those (BAN ME PLEASE) who use stall for the meta because i'm curious about what a bulkier unaware can do, however it's true that it has a worse typing than fable and quag and it is a bit too passive, so it might still struggle to earn its spot over especially clefable as an unware wishpasser, but i would like to try it out to see how it works; unfortunately that's not gonna happen because other things on the slate are better :v

moldbreaker shuckle: i don't rly know what people were saying before, this is an actual improvement to shuckle effectiveness, the thing is that sticky web is just a crappy playstyle and will never be good until we get a good setter (even if that happens i don't know if it will become viable because of sharp and serp and defogs everywhere). But what i wanted to say about this is that shuckle with moldbreaker becomes actually better, it is not completely shut down by bouncers and especially it can set on mega sab; people were saying that it is useless vs megasab because you don't need sticky web vs stall, wtf man you get to put rocks up for free and you can even toxic sableye which is quite huge. And to those who say "oml you fool it loses sturdy", LOL have you ever seen a shuckle being straight KOed on turn 1 by anything?
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Shuckle: 203-242 (83.1 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
see what it takes to OHKO it
so try to get my point, this is not making shuckle and sticky web playstyle more viable, i'm just saying that this is a real improvement to shuckle capabilities unlike many other posts i saw were saying.

sucker punch pangoro: i like this so much, definitely what it needs to be effective in the OU environment. This move alone makes it able to pressure a huge amount of mons that previously just outsped it, so it becomes more fearful and forces a lot of mindgames and switches that can be taken advantage of, especially with that awesome signature move that never got to be used in OU. i think this is my favourite here

speed boost latios: broken
if understood right it was replaced by nasty plot noivern: another awesome buff, at +2 basically fucks everything thanks to good offensive typing paired with insanely hard hitting moves and an awesome speed tie that lets it outspeed every unboosted mon outside of a bunch of megas that are however quite relevant as they all can kill noivern (m-man, m-sceptile, m-punny). unluckily i like pangoro more so fuck this :P
 
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silver97 said:
hey i'm back :D
here my thoughts
unaware umbreon: is a good add only for those (BAN ME PLEASE) who use stall for the meta because i'm curious about what a bulkier unaware can do, however it's true that it has a worse typing than fable and quag and it is a bit too passive, so it might still struggle to earn its spot over especially clefable as an unware wishpasser, but i would like to try it out to see how it works; unfortunately that's not gonna happen because other things are better :v
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Hey--don't hate on it if you're too lazy to beat it.

Anyways, I can't think of any reasons to use Umbreon over Clefable, honestly. Umbreon has great stats, but Dark is not the best defensive typing in the game. Fairy, on the other hand, is gorgeous defensive typing. I'm not thrilled by this submission.
 
Sun King said:
Hey--don't hate on it if you're too lazy to beat it.

Anyways, I can't think of any reasons to use Umbreon over Clefable, honestly. Umbreon has great stats, but Dark is not the best defensive typing in the game. Fairy, on the other hand, is gorgeous defensive typing. I'm not thrilled by this submission.
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i wasn't hating, just joking because i'm a mainly offensive player, i thought i made that being understood :(
 
Yee I got to call voting ily guys
Voting time has come, since we allowed a little bit more time for Noivern. Please remember to bold your post when you vote!

Here are the Pokémon you can vote for:

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+ Unaware (Credit is due to x MAD AXES x )

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+ Mold Breaker

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+ Sucker Punch (Credit is due to Patolegend! )


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+ Nasty Plot

Let the voting begin!

For me, I shall be voting for Umbreon + Unaware.
 
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