Aipom has a niche, the only reason to use Chespin over Timburr is grass STAB, but Chespin cries to Pony and Fletch who can freely set up on it. I think it should stay where it's at.
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Resource LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Corporal Levi
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Although I still agree with keeping Chespin where it is, it's worth noting that it can prevent those Pokemon from setting up on it with Rock Slide, which does some serious damage after a Bulk Up boost.
Gonna go ahead and nominate Growlithe for C -> C+.
Growlithe has huge competition in Ponyta, which has superior base stats, but it still has a niche as a solid defensive Fire-type. You switch out Flame Body for Intimidate, which is technically a more reliable ability, and both Ponyta and Growlithe have similar movepools, both sporting Morning Sun and Will-O-wisp for supporting, and Wild Charge for coverage. Growlithe even has Close Combat to take care of Rock and Dark types that Ponyta can only do neutral damage to. Growlithe's bulk isn't even that bad, either.
A team with both Ponyta and Growlithe on it is totally feasible, as they can both fulfill their role in different ways. On teams with sun, Growlithe can benefit even more. I don't think Growlithe is viable enough to move past C+, but it definitely has a strong niche with its unique coverage and bulk.
Growlithe has huge competition in Ponyta, which has superior base stats, but it still has a niche as a solid defensive Fire-type. You switch out Flame Body for Intimidate, which is technically a more reliable ability, and both Ponyta and Growlithe have similar movepools, both sporting Morning Sun and Will-O-wisp for supporting, and Wild Charge for coverage. Growlithe even has Close Combat to take care of Rock and Dark types that Ponyta can only do neutral damage to. Growlithe's bulk isn't even that bad, either.
A team with both Ponyta and Growlithe on it is totally feasible, as they can both fulfill their role in different ways. On teams with sun, Growlithe can benefit even more. I don't think Growlithe is viable enough to move past C+, but it definitely has a strong niche with its unique coverage and bulk.
Growlithe fulfills the same roles as Ponyta almost to a T. Essentially, when you use Growlithe, it's because you absolutely need Intimidate, and in making that trade you're sacrificing a godly speed tier and better stats solely for Intimidate. You also say that Growlithe benefits from teams with sun, implying that Ponyta doesn't. Ponyta can viably run a set of Sunny Day/Fire Blast/Solar Beam/Morning Sun on a sun team, which Growlithe cannot. There's no way Growlithe deserves to be ranked alongside stuff like Chespin and Magby, both of which have viable niches in which they are not outclassed.
I think Growhlite should stay in C-, Intimidate is worse than Flame Body, since it doesn't let Grow check Pawniard, that will get a +1 boost and his low speed doesn't let him burn Pawn before it kills. His low speed also make more difficult to burn other fast threats as Foo, Archen, Drilbur etc how Ponyta does. Imo he should stay where he's since his flaws are more then his niche
also snubbul exists for that matter, and also gives you a check to Fighters. There is no excuse to run Growlithe over Ponyta: Ponyta has all it really needs, and it has a fast speed tier.
Anyways, ponyta is the first choice and Growlithe has nothing noteworthy over it. If Pony did not exist, I could see it working, but so it is not.
Anyways, ponyta is the first choice and Growlithe has nothing noteworthy over it. If Pony did not exist, I could see it working, but so it is not.
I mean, Justified is a pretty cool ability, especially in a Knock Off-filled meta. I think I may actually use that more often than Intimidate on Growlithe.
Oh, that is a point.
Or it would be if it did not give a slow and frail pokemon with no priority a one-time +1 boost.
55/45/50 isn't bad bulk and 16 Speed isn't slow. It also has really solid offenses at 70 a piece. I'm not trying to get Growlithe to A+, but the Justified set is probably more useful than the Intimidate set, especially considering Growlithe is the only Pokemon in the tier to have Justified.
- After taking a Knock Off you have lost your precious evio / juice / whatever and health, letting a gust of wind kill you.
- Once it is forced out ( by Mienfoo, Chinchou, Ponyta, Gastly, Fletcling, et cetera ) it will have next to no opportunity to set up again, especially given its weakness to rocks.
- There are much better pokemon out there: Need a lategame sweeper? Run smashers / scarfers / Fletch... Need a wallbreaker? Run Bunnelby / Aipom / Orb Foo... Need a Fire-type? Run Ponyta. period.
That's why it's C- ?_?
I don't know why people should ev use it. No true niche. Either it tries emulating a much better mon, or it tries to pull off an unreliable sweep. It sucks. D rank imo.
D-Rank
"Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the LC metagame, but are decent enough to justify their use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that."
EDIT: Hmmm... if you all say that... still not agreeing. But, hell, anyone has opinions. Sorry, I was really dumb to be such a dick.
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It's C- because the Intimidate set is still decent, no need to be dropped to D
Piplup's niche is having SR + Defog which the only other mon to be able to clear both sides and set their own hazards is Archen. It has workable bulk and a useful movepool filled with good STAB options (HPump / Scald) and mediocre coverage (Ice Beam / HP / SIGNAL BEAM / GRASS KNOT) It also has a decent physical options (Waterfall / BB / Drill Peck / Fury Attack if ur into multihit moves) to abuse Defiant along with.
Hmm Status wise, There's Yawn, the force switcher hitter and Feather Dance to lower enemy attack... (Sing even)
Sadly Defiant + Defog is illegal...
also it has no way to reliably heal itself meaning it's stuck waiting on something to heal it (a la wish)
Hmm Status wise, There's Yawn, the force switcher hitter and Feather Dance to lower enemy attack... (
Sadly Defiant + Defog is illegal...
also it has no way to reliably heal itself meaning it's stuck waiting on something to heal it (a la wish)
This is a Defog user Pawniard is not lightheartedly switching into, for it risking the Scald burn ( for that matter, Archen too ). Unfortunately, its starter stats and its typing are not that good, and don't help it, but at least it is not weak to the very hazard it tries to remove, and has, as you point out, a decent movepool. Hell, I should test it.
If you doesn't want a Pawn on the switch-in, Brick Break is another cool thing.
Piplup deserves imo the same place that Finneon, because their more important niches are Water type + Defog.
Then finneon has Tailwind + U-Turn and a water immunity, and Piplup a better bulk, Stealth rocks and Defiant (And some fillers as Covet, Yawn...).
btw Jac, really, I think it does not make sense to talk about his special coverage because the special sweeper Piplup is totally outclassed.
Piplup is really an impressive and underrated support, and C- is the right place for him imo. But D is still fine.
Piplup deserves imo the same place that Finneon, because their more important niches are Water type + Defog.
Then finneon has Tailwind + U-Turn and a water immunity, and Piplup a better bulk, Stealth rocks and Defiant (And some fillers as Covet, Yawn...).
btw Jac, really, I think it does not make sense to talk about his special coverage because the special sweeper Piplup is totally outclassed.
Piplup is really an impressive and underrated support, and C- is the right place for him imo. But D is still fine.
Pawn switching into Archen has to worry about EQ which isnt the smartest play. Unless you can OHKO Archen with Sucker or it's Defensive Archen that isnt running Speed. Water is an alright tying and it's stats are all that bad.
Scald is fine to nail Pawniard with on the switch in. Most Evio Pawn have more physical bulk so it's best to stick to Scald or hit them with HP Fight (but it lowers your def / spa / sdef / spe)
Finneon has -1 HP, +1 Def, -1 Atk / SpA. and +3 Spe over Piplup statwise btw
They are water types with defog but their roles lie deeper. Finneon is faster and has U-Turn along with being immune to it's typing. Piplup is bulkier on the physical side by just a little and can set SR after it clears the field.
Listing the Special options Piplup has is necessary to my point. I stated it has horrible coverage options. Other than Ice Beam. Finneon technically has about the same special coverage ( gets signal beam plus flavor added in wind moves like ominous and silver if you wanna count those as coverage) Plus a Special Piplup set may be outclassed but it definitely could exist. It would prolly be a LO + Agility set and function akin to like, SS Clamperl with Water / Ice / Grass coverage. (not power wise but coverage wise)
Agility plup does not seem like a big threat. IMO, a set of Scald / HP Grass / Defog / Stealth Rocks can be used to hit other rock setuppers hard, discouraging them to stay here, but I guess this is left better to Staryu. The problem is that seems like a " jack of all trades, master in none" sort of thing, it could find it difficult to differentiate from Tirtouga ( water rock setter ), Staryu ( water hazard remover ), and Archen ( Defog + Rocks ). And being in such a position is often cause of difficulty to estabilish a niche, also it seems quite predictable.
Also, sorry for my (possible )N00biness, but why is Munchlax not even ranked? Does it not have the niche of countering Special Attackers? Also now it has recovery ( BerryCycle )
Edit: Aw wait imma dumb
Also, sorry for my (possible )N00biness, but why is Munchlax not even ranked? Does it not have the niche of countering Special Attackers? Also now it has recovery ( BerryCycle )
Edit: Aw wait imma dumb
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Try convining the people who join roomtours that my SubPetaya Agility Piplup isn't a force to be reckoned with.
I'd like to take a moment to point out that Growlithe is C, not C-. Intimidate allows Growlithe to switch into key threats such as Timburr and Fletchling more easily, but this is arguably not enough for it to rise further due to Ponyta's numerous advantages.
In regards to Piplup's niche, I won't totally shut down its nomination just yet, but keep in mind that Pawniard is not lightheartedly switching into Archen, either, given that Earthquake from offensive Archen can cleanly OHKO non-Eviolite Pawniard. Piplup's main issue is that its low damage output and reliance on merely controlling hazards to at all pull its weight on a team means that it tends to lose momentum for teams very quickly, an issue Finneon does not have due to its access to U-Turn.
Anyway, I know a lot of players have been disagreeing with Shellder's placement for a while (not necessarily in this thread), and I think it's time it got moved up. Shellder being a phenomenal sweeper in the current metagame is indisputable; it's arguably comparable to Shell Smash Tirtouga in its effectiveness, if not better. Because it gets around common end-all sweeper checks present on offense teams, such as Abra and Fletchling (if Ice Shard is run), winning with Shellder against these teams can usually be done by just getting hazards up, weakening Pawniard and/or Magnemite sufficiently (or trapping Fletchling if HP Fighting or Razor Shell is run over Ice Shard), and finally setting up, the last part which is quite easy to do thanks to Shellder's initially massive physical bulk. Even against more defensive teams, it's often a matter of Knocking Off or weakening some Pokemon that tend to be really easy to Knock Off/weaken (I mean Spritzee/bulky Fighting-type/Ferroseed level easy), not to mention how difficult it is to switch into repeated Icicle Spears or Rock Blasts for a lot of Pokemon present on slower teams. I don't know how I can elaborate further; it's just really, really easy to sweep with Shellder, more than several sweepers that are currently ranked higher than it.
In regards to Piplup's niche, I won't totally shut down its nomination just yet, but keep in mind that Pawniard is not lightheartedly switching into Archen, either, given that Earthquake from offensive Archen can cleanly OHKO non-Eviolite Pawniard. Piplup's main issue is that its low damage output and reliance on merely controlling hazards to at all pull its weight on a team means that it tends to lose momentum for teams very quickly, an issue Finneon does not have due to its access to U-Turn.
Anyway, I know a lot of players have been disagreeing with Shellder's placement for a while (not necessarily in this thread), and I think it's time it got moved up. Shellder being a phenomenal sweeper in the current metagame is indisputable; it's arguably comparable to Shell Smash Tirtouga in its effectiveness, if not better. Because it gets around common end-all sweeper checks present on offense teams, such as Abra and Fletchling (if Ice Shard is run), winning with Shellder against these teams can usually be done by just getting hazards up, weakening Pawniard and/or Magnemite sufficiently (or trapping Fletchling if HP Fighting or Razor Shell is run over Ice Shard), and finally setting up, the last part which is quite easy to do thanks to Shellder's initially massive physical bulk. Even against more defensive teams, it's often a matter of Knocking Off or weakening some Pokemon that tend to be really easy to Knock Off/weaken (I mean Spritzee/bulky Fighting-type/Ferroseed level easy), not to mention how difficult it is to switch into repeated Icicle Spears or Rock Blasts for a lot of Pokemon present on slower teams. I don't know how I can elaborate further; it's just really, really easy to sweep with Shellder, more than several sweepers that are currently ranked higher than it.
Creativity is good, but you are then just exposed to priorities ( unless you can keep the sub ).
Also, on Shellder, yeah, I am really agree with you: once it sets up and with, as you said, steels gone, it is a phenomenal win condition. With Berry Juice it also can live priorities, which is awesome. Shellder also can live the likes of a Wild Charge from Ponyta, set up, and sweep. Also, 13 Speed ensures little can outspeed after setup ( e.g. Scarf Chou ). Also it has the mighteh powar.
TL, DR: No way it should stay the same rank of Trubbish, its combination of bulk, power, and ability to not get halted by Abra / random sashes / scarf 17s are too good to pass up.
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For a set-up sweeper, there are two big threats : Fletchling and Sashbra.
Shellder doesn't care about both (with ice shard) and can even destroys some "counters" with Razor Shell/HPump.
His choice scarf set is also wonderful and very threatening for every team, he has not sure counter.
I tested him and with his good bulk, it's really easy to set-up (Foo, Drilbur, Archen...) and he can beats a significant portion of the metagame?
This pokémon is underrated and really excellent. He has also some fillers like Rapid Spin (Shellder with a spd inv kills Pumpkaboo with Icicle Spear).
I think it deserves more an A- Rank like Omanyte, or at least a B+ than his actual rank.
Shellder doesn't care about both (with ice shard) and can even destroys some "counters" with Razor Shell/HPump.
His choice scarf set is also wonderful and very threatening for every team, he has not sure counter.
I tested him and with his good bulk, it's really easy to set-up (Foo, Drilbur, Archen...) and he can beats a significant portion of the metagame?
This pokémon is underrated and really excellent. He has also some fillers like Rapid Spin (Shellder with a spd inv kills Pumpkaboo with Icicle Spear).
I think it deserves more an A- Rank like Omanyte, or at least a B+ than his actual rank.
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I totally agree with moving shellder up to at least A- or A. It is a great win condition, since i totally messes up sash, and has priority of its own to stop opposing priority. with eviolite its extremely bulky before smashing, so its near impossible to just ko it
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