Ladder Balanced Hackmons

So i was playing on the BH ladder a while ago, and i came across a rather peculiar Deoxys-A set that had electrify + lighting rod, and i got swept by it.
The following set is simply something i came up with at the top of my head, if you have any better suggestions then be my guest.

Zeus (Deoxys-Attack) @ Life Orb/Leftovers
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Electrify
- Substitute/Spider Web
- Psystrike
- Moonblast/Taunt

Electrify in tandem with lightning rod provides a free SpA boost to slower foes. Substitute has a few uses such as protection against priority, namely fake out+espeed, spore/void, and topsy turvy, and temporary protection against imposter Chansey. Spider Web could be used to trap something and easily get to +6, but Deoxys-A doesn't really have the bulk to do anything other than electrify/attack. Psystrike is STAB and hits specially defensive pokemon harder. I'm not sure about the last move. Moonblast is cool for perfect coverage except against steel types (which most cant do anything back to you anyways), but taunt is also cool to stop setup moves when they predict electrify (such as QD primal kyogre), and to stop imposter chansey from skill-swapping if ur behind a sub.

Threats: (BIG IMPORTANCE: Unaware, gayle chatter, prankster) (Reasonable importance: Imposter Chansey, Shedinja, curse, faster attackers, priority)
But once these have been removed or neutered, then Deoxys-A is an unstoppable force (did you know electrify is not affected by magic bounce or mold breaker?).
Here is a list of common pokemon that are helpless against this Deoxys-A (assuming none of them have prankster or unaware or something): MMY, MMX (non -ate), the Regis, Primal Groudon, Primal Kyogre, Giratina, Mega Gengar, Mega Slowbro, most contrary abusers (unless they used v-create), and many other walls that lack prankster/unaware such as Cresselia and Mega Audino.

So what do you guys think of dis?

EDIT: Now that I think about it earth power would be good in the last slot.
 
The definitive LR + Electrify set was Mega-Gengar running it on the usual Imposter-proof Judgement sent. I think it was something like...

Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Electrify
- Judgement
- Secret Sword
- King's Shield

Not the fastest option, but fast enough and Imposters couldn't steal it from you either.
 
Rumors said:
The definitive LR + Electrify set was Mega-Gengar running it on the usual Imposter-proof Judgement sent. I think it was something like...

Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Electrify
- Judgement
- Secret Sword
- King's Shield

Not the fastest option, but fast enough and Imposters couldn't steal it from you either.
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Obligatory Arhops tag
 
I think the old Imprison trick to shut down imposters works great. I've been using it lately and I'm not sure why most don't use it.

It not only shuts down Imposters, it gives you a chance to dent/KO whatever's coming in. And most of the time, you can predict these switches quite accurately. On many teams, only Imposters and Shedinjas are the sole answers to hard hitters.

Especially effective on Ateability abusers since it also avoids revenge killing from another Ate abuser.

You can run an Imprison / Belly Drum / Extreme Speed / King's Shield Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega. Kills everything, including resisting mons at +6 and they can't even KS to try and stop your sweep. In turn, any incoming Fake Outs can be KSed by you. Plus you can Imprison on an Imposter switch and set up on the switch out quite easily. Be sure to Mold Break any opposing Shedinjas first. Rocks or Spikes also help break sashes and are generally better answers to Shedinja.
 
DinaIsha said:
I think the old Imprison trick to shut down imposters works great. I've been using it lately and I'm not sure why most don't use it.
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Opportunity cost on the move slot. While it's epic at shutting down Imposter, Imprison is nigh useless in most other situations and you're also having to skip out on coverage, recovery, anti-Sheddy, and so forth (for example, your Mega-Ray has zero answers to neither Sheddy nor Unaware users). Especially if your opponent is not running Imposter or a set that happens to be similar to yours. It's also a huge liability if you don't get Imprison up before the Imposter comes in (not unlikely with Volt Switch and Parting Shot being very common) or if you mis-predict the Imprison switch and your sweeper gets statused/nuked/shuffled instead.

For sure it's not a bad move, but it's generally (though not always) more reliable to have one or two members of your team check the Imposter or have your sweeper be able to counter Imposters of itself without Imprison.
 
DinaIsha said:
I think the old Imprison trick to shut down imposters works great. I've been using it lately and I'm not sure why most don't use it.
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I actually bugged staff to implement Imprison in the beginning of PS just so I could run an Imprison Deoxys-S set back when definitive leads were still things. It worked adequately well as a surprise move since it went through Magic Coat. It had some huge faults, however. Imprison gave you horrible 4MSS, meaning that if you wanted to run Imprison and set up a hazard of some sort, you had to pick three of Spore, U-Turn (escape Shadow Tag), and Magic Coat, and could only remove one of the hazards.

I'd imagine that these problems would persist since the Pokemon that are most in need of dedicated Imposter counters tend to have a set up move, plus Imprison leaving you with only two moves to cover. You also need to predict the switch in, lest they win the speed tie and Imprison you first.
 
Rumors said:
The definitive LR + Electrify set was Mega-Gengar running it on the usual Imposter-proof Judgement sent. I think it was something like...

Gengar-Mega @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Electrify
- Judgement
- Secret Sword
- King's Shield

Not the fastest option, but fast enough and Imposters couldn't steal it from you either.
Click to expand...
This set looks cool. It's not as fast or powerful as Deoxys-A but is imposter-proof and has perfect neutral coverage.
Kit Kasai said:
Obligatory Arhops tag
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I don't get it ;_;
 
Lcass4919 said:
wasn't arhops the original user of electrify deoxys(and eventually gengar) or was it just gengar he made?
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Yeah, he and United States were the first to use Gengar.

It's an okay set. Not really my first choice for a team because of its -ate issue, the possibility of being outsped by MMX, Deoxys-A, MMY and Mega Aero, and Secret Sword's lack of damage before setup (which it doesn't have).
 
A fair number of teams have Imposters. You do have to deal with Shedinja first. But really, how long will it take to trap and kill it? And with +6 setup, you don't need coverage.

+6 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 257-303 (70.6 - 83.2%)

+6 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 257-303 (79.3 - 93.5%)

+6 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 631-743 (89.6 - 105.5%)

I haven't even included Sky Plate or Life Orb in the calculations.
 
I've used Cosmicpasser MegaRay in conjunction with semi bulky haxmaster DeoS, with some success.

Ironically enough, it has chatter. Illuminati confirm? Weedle confirm for smash bros? Half life 3 confirmed?
 
DinaIsha We didn't say Imprison was bad, just that it's not always the best option, and a wasted option against teams without a specific mon. Sort of like how Moldy Pursuit is really friggin' good at killing Sheddy, but pretty much crap against everything else. (And on Sheddy, a well played Sheddy is really hard to lure out and kill. Against good players, I've had games where I spent half the match or more just trying to get their Sheddy into a killable position so my sweeper can finally come in.)

Also, it's a well known fact that Belly Drum sweepers hit really hard with their STABs. The set is still shut down by good Unaware, however, since after Belly Drum and no recovery they can Recover stall your measly 8 PP or, if using a LO, HP.

252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Unaware Cresselia: 218-257 (49 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

50% is a lot, but Cress can just spam Recover for 5-6 turns until Ray KOs itself. Or less if you have prior damage. You need either 2 crits, crit + hazards, or for Cress to switch into Extreme Speed to reliably KO it. And this assumes Cress is not running Leftovers or Rocky Helmet, especially if combined with Spiky Shield or (though rare) Cotton Guard. If it is, then Arceus help you since Cress can just revenge KO with Volt Switch if you're forced out to try to Belly Drum again later.

There's also your two turn set-up time and 50% HP cost to consider too. That's ample time for someone to stop the set before it gets going. Or anything that can take a hit, like Registeel or Aggron, dropping a Spore on you and then healing off the damage while forcing you out. Or KOing possibly in Aggron's case, since its Gear Grind doesn't hit too shabbily.

Now, don't get me wrong. Your Ray is a friggin' nuke that'll utterly devastate unprepared teams or those who can only answer with Imposter. You asked why that kind of thing isn't seen more often and I'm just giving you an answer.
 
Rumors said:
DinaIsha We didn't say Imprison was bad, just that it's not always the best option, and a wasted option against teams without a specific mon. Sort of like how Moldy Pursuit is really friggin' good at killing Sheddy, but pretty much crap against everything else. (And on Sheddy, a well played Sheddy is really hard to lure out and kill. Against good players, I've had games where I spent half the match or more just trying to get their Sheddy into a killable position so my sweeper can finally come in.)

Also, it's a well known fact that Belly Drum sweepers hit really hard with their STABs. The set is still shut down by good Unaware, however, since after Belly Drum and no recovery they can Recover stall your measly 8 PP or, if using a LO, HP.

252+ Atk Life Orb Aerilate Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 128+ Def Unaware Cresselia: 218-257 (49 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

50% is a lot, but Cress can just spam Recover for 5-6 turns until Ray KOs itself. Or less if you have prior damage. You need either 2 crits, crit + hazards, or for Cress to switch into Extreme Speed to reliably KO it. And this assumes Cress is not running Leftovers or Rocky Helmet, especially if combined with Spiky Shield or (though rare) Cotton Guard. If it is, then Arceus help you since Cress can just revenge KO with Volt Switch if you're forced out to try to Belly Drum again later.

There's also your two turn set-up time and 50% HP cost to consider too. That's ample time for someone to stop the set before it gets going. Or anything that can take a hit, like Registeel or Aggron, dropping a Spore on you and then healing off the damage while forcing you out. Or KOing possibly in Aggron's case, since its Gear Grind doesn't hit too shabbily.

Now, don't get me wrong. Your Ray is a friggin' nuke that'll utterly devastate unprepared teams or those who can only answer with Imposter. You asked why that kind of thing isn't seen more often and I'm just giving you an answer.
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You're not going to set up on Turn 1. You do it after a bit of prior damage to any walls in the team. And a lot of walls use KS to stop your sweep, which is not possible in this case.

Priority Sporing is also not possible because its Extreme Speed. Revengeing with another ate Mon is out of the question too.

Plus, I never mentioned the choice of item. You can very well have Sky Plate if you're worried about LO.

I agree that Unaware beats it, but with all the Ateability spam, the meta lacks Unaware users. They're either PH, Regen or Fur Coat, all of which is fine by Mega Ray. Better now to take advantage of it than later.

And you've to realize this is just one Mon. You have 5 more slots to make it work.
 
Just cause its annoying doesnt warrant a ban for it
Chatter is really easy to check and counter and its pretty much paled down compared to other arnaments in this meta

I get it that banning chatter is a big bandwagon in the OM forum right now but really now, BH too?
 
"Just cause its annoying doesnt warrant a ban for it
Evasion/endlessbattle/assist is really easy to check and counter and its pretty much paled down compared to other arnaments in this meta

I get it that banning Evasion/endlessbattle/assist is a big bandwagon in the OM forum right now but really now, BH too?"

now, for my actual point. all three of these have had the exact same argument thrown around, and all three have been banned because of 1 reason, its uncompetative to the point of being kinda overkill. Endless battle is really the "oddball" of the group, but nonetheless it can be used in the exact same reasoning. what makes chatter so annoying in oms, is that its really "no risk, devastating reward" on ANY pokemon, not just flying types. literally spam chatter, and eventually you get a substitute, tail glow, and roost of and sweep(literally someones team right now is using that, and has beaten flint, me, and many others just because of the hax) chatter is different from normal confusion because the move actually deals decent damage, can have priority, can pass through substitutes and magic bounce, and is as easy to stop as running the redundant soundproofmon, which most -ate users can get around now by simply running the SLIGHTLY weaker technoblast(which many do), and most walls run u-turn/volt switch/baton pass negating any perish trap shenanigans making it a terrible stall breaker, and a terrible -ate check. chansey runs a 50/50 risk on non sub variants(i mean that as in it subs before you have a chance to bring it in, eg, expecting ate, and going into your atecheck, which 99% of the time shouldn't be imposter), and most steel types just become setup fodder. shedinja risks the confusion no matter what it does.

what does this mean? it means just like assist, you have to INNOVATE a counter SOLELY to it(it being chatter in general, GL with its coverage moves). there's no way to fully counter chatter, since any poke can run it effectively as long as they have the luck of the draw just like minimize, and literally can run any set and put in work with it.

idrc if chatter is suspected or not, its annoying i'll admit, but still, we have proven 3 times that stuff that is annoying in a similar aspect to chatter, DOES warrant a ban(or a suspect at least). and the fact that other meta's even recognize this, only further proves this exact point.
 
CactusCacti said:
Just cause its annoying doesnt warrant a ban for it
Chatter is really easy to check and counter and its pretty much paled down compared to other arnaments in this meta

I get it that banning chatter is a big bandwagon in the OM forum right now but really now, BH too?
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Chatter has the same issues that evasion had. It's luck based and uncompetitive. It doesn't add anything to the metagame / ladder - it just makes it a worse experience for everyone. Why would we want to keep that in? The whole point of BH is to be competitive and fun, and chatter detracts from both of those things.
 
Chatter is nowhere near as powerful as assist spam was, even tho its uncompetitive, its really a slight nuinsance at best at the scale of power that BH has.
BH already has shit like spore spam that forced everyone and their mothers to run safety goggles ( before you bring in magic bounce argument, remember what runs it the most)
We have moody, we have imposter
We have like, pretty much like, every fucking annoying thing in the book right here in our hands that other meta game styles would never fucking want.
Yet, BH didnt automaticly cry "PLS BAN" until it became drasticly OP enough like assist was

What im trying to say is, BH really has no room to talk about chatter being OP enough to warrant ban compared to other metas so there's no real need to jump on the bandwagon.
If you guys really want to jump on it, then atleast do a sleep clause testing first cause Im sure everybody loves running safety goggles on everything as it currently is.
 
CactusCacti said:
Chatter is nowhere near as powerful as assist spam was, even tho its uncompetitive, its really a slight nuinsance at best at the scale of power that BH has.
BH already has shit like spore spam that forced everyone and their mothers to run safety goggles ( before you bring in magic bounce argument, remember what runs it the most)
We have moody, we have imposter
We have like, pretty much like, every fucking annoying thing in the book right here in our hands that other meta game styles would never fucking want.
Yet, BH didnt automaticly cry "PLS BAN" until it became drasticly OP enough like assist was

What im trying to say is, BH really has no room to talk about chatter being OP enough to warrant ban compared to other metas so there's no real need to jump on the bandwagon.
If you guys really want to jump on it, then atleast do a sleep clause testing first cause Im sure everybody loves running safety goggles on everything as it currently is.
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I'm not arguing that it's as powerful. It's uncompetitive, and it detracts from the metagame. It's one of those things that there's really no point in keeping it. It doesn't make BH more fun, more competitive, or more interesting. In fact, it does the opposite. The argument against chatter isn't one of magnitude, as it is a pretty low magnitude issue. More importantly, it makes BH a worse place just by existing.
 
TheBurgerKing99 said:
I'm not arguing that it's as powerful. It's uncompetitive, and it detracts from the metagame. It's one of those things that there's really no point in keeping it. It doesn't make BH more fun, more competitive, or more interesting. In fact, it does the opposite. The argument against chatter isn't one of magnitude, as it is a pretty low magnitude issue. More importantly, it makes BH a worse place just by existing.
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The things I listed are also what many other metas, specially OU, would think as uncompetitive, imposter is pretty much the only one of them what is a must have evil due of the nature of the meta.
Yet, chatter seems to be the only target because its very recent target in other meta games due of the recent mechanic discovery giving it the usual hype wave of people running it cause they can and its "new"

There are seriously many things that are uncompetitive and could be argued as to add nothing but negative things to the metagame, and we could start listing them up and argue them on and on, cause really, pokemon has ton of them and in this meta, you can pretty much run all of them but the most OP ones (aka no guard sheercold, wondergurd, etc)
Chatter is just pretty much "yet one another thing" in the power of the metagame where you can run pretty much fucking everything, like unavoidable confusion for everyone that doesnt have own tempo via infiltrator teeter dance if you want to.

So seriously, cut the bandwagoning and wait till the hype dies
 
What I'm afraid of is the time when people start running mold breaker chatter, since that would make the confusion unavoidable. Any other form of chatter is indeed annoying as hell, but it can still be stopped by abilities, and soundproof is still a decent ability in a lot of cases. From what I've seen however, users of chatter seem to have unusally bad luck while running it, although that may just be my nutty mind seeing patterns that don't exist.
 
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