Ladder Balanced Hackmons

Chatter is really fucking stupid, we all know that. I would be all for banning it if there wasn't a steel type on nearly every team. It's not like those are dying to confusion because of their bulk. Well that and rock types who also probably won't kill themselves but have a higher chance but still. It's not like chatter is the cause of this, steel types are there to counter ate mons and rock types because mega diancie is really good and I have seen some people run m ttar lately because it's really bulky and the best sand setter.
 
CactusCacti said:
Just cause its annoying doesnt warrant a ban for it
Chatter is really easy to check and counter and its pretty much paled down compared to other arnaments in this meta
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Ranger Helmut said:
Chatter is really fucking stupid, we all know that. I would be all for banning it if there wasn't a steel type on nearly every team. It's not like those are dying to confusion because of their bulk. Well that and rock types who also probably won't kill themselves but have a higher chance but still. It's not like chatter is the cause of this, steel types are there to counter ate mons and rock types because mega diancie is really good and I have seen some people run m ttar lately because it's really bulky and the best sand setter.
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At first I was on board but now I disagree. Replays are down, but I have a few where I have already began work on a team with chatter spam that can overpower counters really easily. It's not very hard when you can guess that people will likely run at most 1 counter, that it is either shield dust or soundproof, and that to make it even a bit versatile, be able to take on the usual galequaza and be useful against ates either in speed or typing (steel type/rock) or both. When you KNOW this information, it is very easy to run chatter on any set up mon that you want that can even pose a neutral threat to that single counter. I agree when you say that we shouldn't swing the banhammer around and in general we should wait until things become op in the metagame for a ban, but there are a few things you just know are uncompetitive to begin with. But fair enough, I don't think it'll be that long since chatter fills the void of the assist team particularly with people running mono chatter teams like I am to show how dumb it can get.

An example in a game I was playing. I went out of my way to create a chatter counter I posted earlier, the shield dust aerodactyl mega that can easily take on and destroy the usual gale quaza and can at least hit ates hard if they use fake out. However, this was completely ineffectual against a PH kyogre with QD setup and chatter as coverage. My two walls that have WW were both confused while it set up until it could overwhelm them. I still managed to win but it was a close shot and that was against only one set; chatter can be used by anyone to hit stuff on the switch and then rely on hax that can often go their way. Chatter can be used as coverage to introduce instant 50/50's on any mon, checks shed, checks imposter, gets around mb, gets around sub and gets a +1 prio with an ability with arguably the strongest mon in the meta.
 
Ranger Helmut said:
Chatter is really fucking stupid, we all know that. I would be all for banning it if there wasn't a steel type on nearly every team. It's not like those are dying to confusion because of their bulk. Well that and rock types who also probably won't kill themselves but have a higher chance but still. It's not like chatter is the cause of this, steel types are there to counter ate mons and rock types because mega diancie is really good and I have seen some people run m ttar lately because it's really bulky and the best sand setter.
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A chatter megaray just beat my assault vest mega Ttar on a 1v1 while also having a sub and a tail glow afterwards, this is a bit more than just "stupid" or "annoying"
another stupidly one sided matchup that i lost was in another battle where chatter quaza beat my unaware chansey on an 1v1. Pokemon that i had specificly to counter tail glow quaza.
Even if you run something to supposed to counter it, chatter can just hax it way past your counter. Don't even bring up soundproof, it's just terribad and can still lose to a random chatter mons depending on coverage.
Assist team was also easily dealt with before chatter became a thing.
That move has about everything it could dream of too, possible priority, great offensive typing (every type that resists chatter is weak to ground wich makes coverage pretty easy), guaranteed confusion, gets past subs and an insanely strong user in megaray.

It's not like it's rare too, I see a chatter mon on 9 battles out of 10 on the ladder, even stuff like chatter groudon-P to get past your usual counter. And some ppl have kept a high ranking for quite a long time just because of chatter spam.

I use to thing it was just annoying, but it has come to a point where chatter is one of the things i fear the most in a battle, wich just speaks for itself in a meta like BH where everything is overpowered.
 
Lcass4919 said:
"Just cause its annoying doesnt warrant a ban for it
Evasion/endlessbattle/assist is really easy to check and counter and its pretty much paled down compared to other arnaments in this meta

I get it that banning Evasion/endlessbattle/assist is a big bandwagon in the OM forum right now but really now, BH too?"

now, for my actual point. all three of these have had the exact same argument thrown around, and all three have been banned because of 1 reason, its uncompetative to the point of being kinda overkill. Endless battle is really the "oddball" of the group, but nonetheless it can be used in the exact same reasoning. what makes chatter so annoying in oms, is that its really "no risk, devastating reward" on ANY pokemon, not just flying types. literally spam chatter, and eventually you get a substitute, tail glow, and roost of and sweep(literally someones team right now is using that, and has beaten flint, me, and many others just because of the hax) chatter is different from normal confusion because the move actually deals decent damage, can have priority, can pass through substitutes and magic bounce, and is as easy to stop as running the redundant soundproofmon, which most -ate users can get around now by simply running the SLIGHTLY weaker technoblast(which many do), and most walls run u-turn/volt switch/baton pass negating any perish trap shenanigans making it a terrible stall breaker, and a terrible -ate check. chansey runs a 50/50 risk on non sub variants(i mean that as in it subs before you have a chance to bring it in, eg, expecting ate, and going into your atecheck, which 99% of the time shouldn't be imposter), and most steel types just become setup fodder. shedinja risks the confusion no matter what it does.

what does this mean? it means just like assist, you have to INNOVATE a counter SOLELY to it(it being chatter in general, GL with its coverage moves). there's no way to fully counter chatter, since any poke can run it effectively as long as they have the luck of the draw just like minimize, and literally can run any set and put in work with it.

idrc if chatter is suspected or not, its annoying i'll admit, but still, we have proven 3 times that stuff that is annoying in a similar aspect to chatter, DOES warrant a ban(or a suspect at least). and the fact that other meta's even recognize this, only further proves this exact point.
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>you have to innovate a counter
>Shield Dust exists.
 
Esprite said:
that's not the point. the point is, you can set up on that silly chatter user, then destroy it.
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Explain how you are able to outspeed and ko Mega-Rayquaza while also being able to take a +3 hit in the process without the use of Ice Shard (because if you're running Ice Shard on something that sets up and sweeps you're proving that Chatter is broken by running something incredibly niche even though Shield Dust is already kinda niche). Besides, what can set up in it? Steel is out of the question if M-Ray carries a move like Earth Power or Magma Storm.
 
You may all proceed to utterly despise me now.

You Hate Me! (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Chatter
- Nuzzle
- Air Slash
- Substitute

You Hate Me Too! (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Chatter
- Glare
- Substitute
- Tail Glow


These'll pretty much hax their way through any wall and Chatter boosted Chatter can 2HKO pretty much anything not investing in bulk. (100-0ed Eviolite Chansey and specially defensive Registeel without them being able to do anything, for example.) If you need to check Imposters, use either mixed -ate Kyu-B, Kyu-W, Diancie-M, or Xern with a Lum Berry and enough bulk investment to take a +3 Chatter + potential hazards. Or you can use an Infiltrator with Lum Berry + Ice Beam.
 
Generally I'll still like to keep my stance on this and say:
Give it sometime. When we got steam eruption, 1K's and diamond storm, you saw those everywhere.
Nowdays everyone who used to run steam eruption tends to run scald again, waves is rare and arrows is still there, diamond storm is pretty much only ran by rock types.
Or remember hyperspace fury? I saw that on fucking everything.

If you want to really have useful soundproofer, slap it on an offensive mon that normally hates parting shot.
There's also the gen 5 item of lum berry that people used before safety goggles.

Ofcourse we can just promote chatter even more and make people use it rather than letting the hype die on its own and then ban it.

Regardless I'll share these things I'm currently using;

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Safety Goggles / Lum / AssVest
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (Tweak as needed)
Jolly Nature (Tweak as needed)
- Diamond Storm / Icicle Spear
- U-turn
- Low Kick / Circle throw
- Infestation / Knock Off

I originally made this as momentum halter; No parting shot user wants to stay in. Walls chatter as an added bonus. Gives nice momentum while killing the foes.
MMX is always hard to wall as it is.
This same set can also be ran on groudon primal to kill even more momentum from volt switch users.

Variant two if you're, really, really worried about chatter but still want to have something useful:

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Assault Vest
Ability: Shield Dust
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Close Combat / Low Kick
- ExtremeSpeed
- Knock Off / Infestation

Assvest allows MMX to survive non boosted chatter from mega ray and retaliate with icicle spear.
Generally the common gale wings mega ray will try sub once it has chattered one foe, you can then switch this in, at the turn of attack it will try boost or chatter, you may icicle spear, at minimun, at full health, no sub ray would lose 73% minimun from spear, mega ray will lose sub and then take around 30 - 40% damage. At minimun MMX e speed hits 30% to megaray. These are both assuming 248 HP evs on mega ray aswell.
Generally, MMX will be able to usualy cleanly kill mega ray that abuses chatter this way, unless you have very bad luck with the damage rolls or it goes for tail glow immidiatly.
This same set is able to kill -ate fake out leads that do not immidiatly go for e speed.
As other use it will also shrug out the semi common nuzzle and sacred fire with low effort.
Similiar set can also be, once more, run on the likes of groudon primal for better survivability at the cost of little damage.
 
CactusCacti said:
Generally I'll still like to keep my stance on this and say:
Give it sometime. When we got steam eruption, 1K's and diamond storm, you saw those everywhere.
Nowdays everyone who used to run steam eruption tends to run scald again, waves is rare and arrows is still there, diamond storm is pretty much only ran by rock types.
Or remember hyperspace fury? I saw that on fucking everything.

If you want to really have useful soundproofer, slap it on an offensive mon that normally hates parting shot.
There's also the gen 5 item of lum berry that people used before safety goggles.

Ofcourse we can just promote chatter even more and make people use it rather than letting the hype die on its own and then ban it.
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these points were ALSO thrown around during the assist/minimize/and endless battle clauses, these are terrible arguments you are throwing around. mainly because you are assuming all chatter users are mono chatter.

they aren't.

the 3 "common" sets of chatter right now are monoray with sub glow and chatterroost, ray with chatter and oblivion wing and subglow, or ray with tail glow, chatter, oblivion wing, and earth power/secret sword sure these two stops monochatter, but the other three completely shit on these two mewtwo.

your check will barely be sent in, because ray SETS UP rather then revenge kills. these would work considering it was either desperate to kill the poke you sent in(it wont be), or if they are completely stupid when they notice you switch into a fighting type( AV groudon works though, but even then, what if they decide to tail glow instead of sub?) but otherwise these checks don't work on the majority of chatter sets since they will either set up on the poke you are forced to sacrifice against your will. (and who says ray is the only user of it? ive seen weird shit like kyogre utilizing it), or they will simply hit you again predicting your switch (most users use chatter twice, just to whittle your hp down) your AV set works as a check....once...but what about the other 3 users ready to take it out? its not like chatter teams focus on one user.

i do agree however, that rushing a chatter suspect is not to be done. mainly since we need to adjust to the newer meta. and maybe it will die down. i mean, usually it dies down because there's at least a hardcounter out there (minimize had prank topsy, and assistspam had fur coat) but chatters counters (soundproof/sheild dust) are too narrow to actually stop it, and 9 times out of 10, it WILL have a way around it. if something is effective, people will spam it. assistdon is a perfect example of this. and since chatter spam has yet to find a consistent stop, its going to be spammed until one is created (which is impossible, because stuff that blocks setup, is destroyed by confusion, stuff that blocks confusion, is destroyed by setup, and stuff that blocks chatter, is raped by setup AND coverage) there's no common middle ground for chattermons.
 
It also promotes the use it when you have people screaming their lungs out like its the end of the world, making force feeder alts to ladder specificly spamming it to show how broken it is
those guys are giving this no real time, just force feeding it up, rushing it up, steamrolling it through
Im so puzzled how this managed to spread the chatter wildfire in the OM forum so much
But ok there are also other things not yet mentioned outside shield dust and soundproof:

Own Tempo. & Lum berry harvest.
Own tempo is your last case scenario.
Lum Berry harvest still has use outside hax evasion and can be also turned into anti imposter shenigans, only problem is knock off's excistance.

BH is a big ass sandbox to dig through, there are probably more ways to counterplay confusion and hax in general if digged up some more, but I am kinda rushing this reply enough already

The big thing I wish was that people wouldn't promote the chatter hysteria so much as it currently is
The best scenario would be if chatter would just drop on its usage once people realize more reliable playstyles, but I dont see that happening anymore now that this stamp is being places so high
 
Evasion Clause takes place in BH, so considering confusion hax falls into the same "haxy" category as evasion hax with the added bonus that Chatter does decent damage, then i guess i'm leaning towards a suspect/ban chatter.

I made a poor team with 4 Chatter Rayquaza-Mega (and as lcass pointed out i didn't even have a Gale Wing user among these) and still managed to get a decent fight (lost after all) against lcass because of the hax factor (yeah i copied Rumors set with Serene Grace Air Slash + Nuzzle + Chatter). I mean, i didn't put much effort and thought on the team and still managed to get some easy victories on the ladder and a nice fight against a know good player.
 
Moldy Chatter breaks all but the Harvest Lum Berry set. And Harvest Lum Berry is... unreliable since, without perma-Sun, only gets your berry 50% of the time and is also knock off vulnerable. Harvest Lum was okay in Gen V with decent sun, but without... yeah, it's gimmicky.

And then you still have to address other crap using it besides Mega-Ray. Like, lemme post my current half-assed Chatter team. It has plenty of issues since, well, half-assed and made in 5 mins, but I'm not trying to ladder it anyway.

You Hate Me! (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Chatter
- Nuzzle
- Air Slash
- Substitute

You already say this one.


You Hate Me Too! (Rayquaza-Mega) @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Chatter
- Glare
- Substitute
- Tail Glow

And this one too.


ZOMG! (Kyogre-Primal) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Chatter
- Volt Switch

It's the old AV Regen Kyo, except with Chatter instead of Nuzzle. It works stupid well.


SRSLY!? (Mewtwo-Mega-Y) @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Chatter
- Oblivion Wing
- Psystrike
- Earth Power

Bad set is bad, but Chatter to harass walls and switch-ins, outspeed and OHKO Steel-types and just about everything offensive. Oblivion Wing to heal off LO recoil.


O RLY? (Kyurem-White) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Mild Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Extreme Speed
- Boomburst
- Chatter
- Recycle

Check to Imposters of my Mega-Rays and Mega-2. It could be better but... I'm being dumb and gimmicky and putting Chatter on everything. And of course, being in -ate, has plenty of utility outside of checking them.


YA RLY! (Giratina) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 132 Def / 128 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Wish
- U-turn
- Defog
- Chatter

Oh yeah, did you know walls can use Chatter too to harass offense and attempts at wall breaking? Good luck stopping the Wish support and PH recovery when you're too busy punching yourself in the face. I'll probably switch to this Lugia or Cress though since my team is painfully weak to Pixelate. But, eh, might be too lazy to try to improve this dumb team.

Gimmie a Pokemon that stops Chatter from ALL of these without hurting its effectiveness against the rest of the tier. Or anything else I might come up with. Like, say, maybe Normalize + Entrainment + Chatter Mega-Gengar.

It might be too early to call suspects and stuff, but, there's definitely a potential problem I feel.
 
If the problem was just confusion, then Confuse Ray should be banned too. But Chatter has an usable BP, boostable with Tail Glow, STAB and hence does more than just "hax".

And to say that we should just let Chatter's usage die is like partially accepting its unfair advantage.

But really, the important reason I support a ban on Chatter is that, just like Assist spam, it's easy to pull off. If it required a good amount of skill to make it work, I'd be okay with it (Just like how keeping a Sturdinja alive needs careful predictions).

The ease with which people can ladder with such an easy strategy is unfair to the other serious players.

It's more or less similar to hacking a game. You can do it yourself too if you wanted, but it takes all the fun out of it. And it's a sucky feeling when you can't beat that game, but someone else has, by simply hacking the game and activating a pseudo-God-mode cheat.
 
DinaIsha said:
If the problem was just confusion, then Confuse Ray should be banned too. But Chatter has an usable BP, boostable with Tail Glow, STAB and hence does more than just "hax".

And to say that we should just let Chatter's usage die is like partially accepting its unfair advantage.

But really, the important reason I support a ban on Chatter is that, just like Assist spam, it's easy to pull off. If it required a good amount of skill to make it work, I'd be okay with it (Just like how keeping a Sturdinja alive needs careful predictions).

The ease with which people can ladder with such an easy strategy is unfair to the other serious players.

It's more or less similar to hacking a game. You can do it yourself too if you wanted, but it takes all the fun out of it. And it's a sucky feeling when you can't beat that game, but someone else has, by simply hacking the game and activating a pseudo-God-mode cheat.
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You know it's a problem, when your best checks are shield dust, and own tempo, and they don't really do much otherwise.
 
DinaIsha said:
It's more or less similar to hacking a game. You can do it yourself too if you wanted, but it takes all the fun out of it. And it's a sucky feeling when you can't beat that game, but someone else has, by simply hacking the game and activating a pseudo-God-mode cheat.
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OFF TOPIC: i really only hack my games when ive beaten them to oblivion. you would be amazed at what some developers leave in games (like in my naruto game, i have a way to unlock every attack, and it actually had some attacks that were meant to be implimented in the NEXT game. talk about forshadowing. it also had some funny "9999 damage" attacks when the max hp is like...300)

also ironic considering thats bh's premisis, to hack the game. kek
 
Okay so the best chatter ray check is pretty much sleeping under everyones nose;
Pixilate diancie.
Just replace pixieplate/goggles with lum berry.
For consistance checking, the final move slot that is usualy left for infestation/steel coverage can be replaced with recycle.

There. The same situation descripted with the mewtwos is now on your side as whenever the ray tries for sub, glow or chatter, it will die if it stays in due of lum berry's presence giving you the hax free turn.
Diancie with 248 HP can survive earthpower aswell.

Refrdirate kyurem-b also does this even better and soaks up hits like a champ but its not as good for regular play as mega diancie.
But then again icicle spear/shard varitation with technician and lum berry can also handle it if you insist on keeping -ate for your own mega ray and are really worried of chatter.

...Generally speaking, lum berry alone seems to make many offensive mons with coverage to hit mega ray into check for the chatter variants.

But honestly I can see chatter ban being needed if the usage really goes to worst case scenario cause the chain reaction tends to easily go that way, and having lum berry for chatter and spore makes you more vulnerable to spore spam later.
 
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