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Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]
- Thread starter bb skarm
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Slates are occasionally done which are re-uses of previous suggestions that didn't win. For instance, one slate something else won over Lightningrod Empoleon, but there was a retry slate later with Lightningrod Empoleon where it won. Considering all these are so good I have no doubt we'll see at least one again.
You have no idea how much it hurts for me to want Krookodile, know he'll be good, but also know he won't win with competition like Roost Mantine.
That said, if you have a favorite, vote for it no matter what. I recall reslates typically took Second-Place winners.
That said, if you have a favorite, vote for it no matter what. I recall reslates typically took Second-Place winners.
Yeah, that's true. Can't wait till voting time! gonna be interesting here!
we potentially have 3 reslate winners here!
Sorry for the sidetrack, but I just had to ask since I wasn't around for that one: what's so broken about Poison Heal Snorlax?
All the guys on this slate really are great additions... Makes me wish we were running gamefreak, not for the first time :D does mantine have any particular disadvantages/advantages related to running Roost, rather than say Recover, a la Skarmory versus Hammer Arm MMetagross? Just wondering if that anti-flying type helps or hinders it at all against any specific matchup. I've a pro-mantine bias in any case :B
The only real disadvantage it has is that it gives it a grass weakness. On the other hand, it can fuck over slow volt switches.
I don't know if Poison Heal Snorlax is broken necessarily. It was just a really good because it gave Snorlax status immunity and very reliable recovery, which was really helpful for such a bulky attacker/set-up user with Curse. Poison Heal in general a useful ability since it not only gives double Leftovers recovery, but status immunity. Gastrodon trades the raw bulk (Snorlax has massive HP and Sp. Def, the former offsetting his low Defense) for arugably more useful typing and a slightly better offensive movepool.
As for Mantine, I think Roost is a bit less disadvantageous than it would be for Skarmory, since Skarmory's Flying type is important for many of the things it switches into: Physical Fighting and Ground moves. While Mantine's typing is important for some things it wants to check (Zard-Y's Solarbeam, Landorus's Earth power), Roosting is less likely to open it up to weaknesses, and its Water Typing is the source of some of its important resistances (Fire, Water if not Absorb, Steel), compared to Skarmory who needs its combination specifically since many Physical attackers carry moves a Steel Type would be weak to.
Now there's two sides to it. Roost would make Mantine susceptible to some types it would otherwise like to avoid (Ground and Fighting as noted, plus Grass), but it also lessens its weakness to Electric, Rock, and gives it an outright Ice resistance. The reason I don't think gaining those new weaknesses is as big a deal to Mantine is because of Scald. While obviously not producing much damage, Scald means that Mantine doesn't give away switches when forcing the opponent out. Skarmory can lay Hazards, but there's only so many times a match it will need to, and if the switch in resists Skarmory's Brave Bird, Skarm has to leave because it's guzzling momentum. Mantine's Scald presents an inherent risk to the opponent when they switch the thing it countered out because Fire Types are weak to it (so there's at least more than chip damage) and anything else risks a burn. If the opponent gets burned, Mantine might be able to sit on them even if they're Physical mons, on top of enormous special bulk, with the Attack Drop bulking it more than any investment could.
252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 214-252 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk burned Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 158-187 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I'd argue this gives Mantine an edge over Skarmory, who has no reliable way to patch up its weaker defensive stat and still wall Physical Mons. Mantine should obviously not be your all around wall, but being able to stop a would be Physical Counter 30% of the time is a godsend for it. Scald means the opponent is essentially gambling on the equivalent of hitting a Focus Blast to counter Mantine unless their switch in is a Special Electric type, or has some way around Burn's drop such as Refresh/Heal Bell Altaria, or a Resttalker (I say this since Mantine probably won't wanna stay in if they were not actually burned the first time).
The more I look at it, the more I realize Mantine might be just as if not more viable than Skarmory if it only got some way to heal.
Mantine is also pretty slow, so the idea of Roost opening up weaknesses is unlikely. Even Mega-Venusaur outspeeds at min Speed, so it's not like Venu can hit it hard with Giga Drain on the turn it Roosts. The only relevant threats that are slower than Mantine don't have any attacks that benefit from losing Flying typing.
Skarmory was relevant simply because of its weakness when Roosting to Hammer Arm, but no Megagross is going to spam Hammer Arm against a Mantine, risking a Scald burn for no reason when they could be using Zen Headbutt.
Skarmory was relevant simply because of its weakness when Roosting to Hammer Arm, but no Megagross is going to spam Hammer Arm against a Mantine, risking a Scald burn for no reason when they could be using Zen Headbutt.
This was during the XY era, so it might not be as overpowered in ORAS. But the reason why people thought Poison Heal Snorlax was broken was because once it set up a Curse or two, it would be near impossible to break through. With a little luck, Snorlax can already sweep entire teams at +2 because of its massive defenses and good power, but Poison Heal made Snorlax immune to status and gave it rapid recovery, and status was one of the only consistent answers to a Snorlax that's already set up. STAB status Facade from base 110 Attack already isn't to be taken lightly, but after a Curse or two, even physical walls that lack a Normal resistance will be hard pressed to endure its attacks. Plus, Snorlax has coverage moves like Fire Punch and Earthquake to hit Steel-types, further limiting what could safely come in on it. Snorlax's bulk is also what you'd expect, with incredible 160 / 65 / 110 defenses, and with Curse in tow, Fighting-types were pretty much the only things that could even hope to break through. And anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but this was during Aegislash's reign, so the metagame didn't take too kindly to Fighting-types at the time, even further limiting what was effective in the metagame. With that said, Poison Heal Snorlax might be as broken as I've made it out to be in today's metagame, as Fighting-types are fairly common nowadays, and it might only be excellent as opposed to broken. But at the time of its Theorymonning, Poison Heal Snorlax seemed almost like an invincible juggernaut, so a lot of people considered it broken.
Hope this helped! :)
Or we could unanimously vote Krookodile in. Not that I'm biased at all :)
Mantine + Roost: Mantine would have been really good before this slate if it already had access to reliable recovery, but its lack of it made it a poor choice. However, now that it gets it, we have a special behemoth (a specially-oriented Water-type Skarmory) with good longevity due to Water Absorb+Roost, access to Scald, access to Defog and access to Air Slash. This thing will be a force to be reckoned with.
Krookodile+Dragon Dance:can we get Garchomp+Dragon Dance next? A big problem with offensive Krook is that it is too slow to reliably sweep, but Choice Scarf is somewhat detrimental to it due to its typing and movepool (locking yourself into either Earthquake or Stone Edge has its drawbacks for obvious reasons, while Knock Off being weakened after the item is knocked off means that anything with its item knocked off needs to be significantly weakened to be revenge killed; I guess you could say that it suffered from Porygon-Z syndrome. However, with Dragon Dance, it can not only reach speeds high enough to sweep, but it can also snowball its damage with Moxie (as if a +1 Krook isn't scary enough without being locked into a move) or ease setup with Intimidate. Definitely look out for this one.
Gastrodon+Poison Heal: Gastrodon was somewhat viable before, but IMO Posion Heal just takes away from Gastrodon's main niche (a rain check for defensive Sandstorm teams), which is only really notable due to Storm Drain. However, Poison Heal does increase its utility on flat out stall teams as a special wall, but it just seems like it isn't enough to push it into the spotlight.
Typhlitoosion+Drought: Typhlosion is far scarier than it was before, with a higher speed than Charizard and Ninetales. Add Eruption into the mix and it is genuinely a force to be reckoned with. Add to this that it doesn't need to mega evolve to support sun teams and you have a more reliable offensive setter than Charizard-Y. However, sun is still a poor playstyle; but that isn't why this was suggested. This seems like it will push Typhlosion right up in usefulness, and it would be interesting to see.
Krookodile+Dragon Dance:
Gastrodon+Poison Heal: Gastrodon was somewhat viable before, but IMO Posion Heal just takes away from Gastrodon's main niche (a rain check for defensive Sandstorm teams), which is only really notable due to Storm Drain. However, Poison Heal does increase its utility on flat out stall teams as a special wall, but it just seems like it isn't enough to push it into the spotlight.
Typhl
Minor address, Typhlosion's speed tier is 100 just like Zard and Ninetales.
Mantine + Roost: Im not the biggest fan of "give bulky mon reliable recovery and make it viable" but this one is just so good. The special bulk and typing lets this guy check so many special attackers like Keldeo, Mega Sceptile and Zard-Y. I really like what it'll do in terms of impacting the meta game, but all it did was make checking the mons its already did easier. I remember Mantine hanging onto that D rank during X/Y and it lost it because it lacked recovery, which it now has, but that doesn't change the fact that people know what it does and that probably is the reason it won't be my vote.
Krookodile + Dragon Dance: I was gonna suggest this, but i was too lazy to submit and I'm glad someone else beat me to it. Ive always wondered if Krook could carve a niche as an offensive Threat in OU, but it was always outclassed by Bisharp for spamming its dark STAB, and Landorus-T who also had intimidate and a stronger earthquake. Dragon Dance lets it be a real offensive threat with great Dual STABs to abuse. Its Meh attack of 117 isn't very good unless boosted, and its middling 92 Base speed, while not horrible, leaves a lot to be desired, DD patches both of these up and makes Krook a monster, but it does have its flaws. You can get to +6 and still have to worry about priority, seeing as Krook is weak to common moves like Mach Punch, Aqua Jet and Ice Shard. Granted Bullet Punch isn't Super effective, but it will still hurt. Also, fully invested neutral speed misses out on outspending Base 145s such as Beedrill and Sceptile (mega forms of coarse) by 2 points, meaning they will outspeed and threaten you with their STABs. You can run Jolly to out pace them, but i personally like the damage output more than outspending 2 fairly uncommon megas. This is my second vote.
Gastrodon + Poison Heal: This guy. i love this thing. While the other 2 poison healers, Gliscor and Breloom, are viable, i never find myself using them, mostly because of their typing. They aren't necessarily bad, but both are weak to very common attacking types in OU. Gastrodon is only weak to grass, not only is it a very uncommon attacking type, but it can easily be prepared for with common resists, like heatran and Amoongus. Gastrodon is also quite bulky, so its not like Quagsire who relies on its typing to tank a lot of hits. It also has recover for annoyance and stealth rocks for support. I would've voted for Krook, but with such an offensive metagame, Krook would just be another Offensive threat. This guy is a defensive threat and while it might seem hypocritical that i won't vote Mantine, ill explain that I know how and what mantine will do, but Gastrodon is a much more unique and creative submission, so that earns my vote.
Typhlosion + Drought: Poor mans Charizard-Y. Pretty much if you wanna use a different mega, but still want Charizard-Ys wall breaking powers, this is the guy. They share the same speed tier, similar move pool, but Typhosion can hold specs, Life orb (i prefer life orb) to boost its lower base Special Attack stat. It also doesn't have a 4x weakness to rocks, but is vulnerable to ground moves, so its a double edged sword. Typlosion seems scary because when its at full HP, it can spam Eruption, and it'll be hard to switch into something to take a Base 150 STAB Life Orb boosted fire move in the sun, but even if you wear Typhlosion down, it'll go into Blaze range, and start spamming fire blast, so it always has a high base power STAB to fire off. While i do like the idea, it didn't get my vote because it pretty much will just do what Zard-Y does, but not take up the mega slot.
Edit: typhlosion can't use blaze with drought, but sun boosted fire blasts still hit hard.
Krookodile + Dragon Dance: I was gonna suggest this, but i was too lazy to submit and I'm glad someone else beat me to it. Ive always wondered if Krook could carve a niche as an offensive Threat in OU, but it was always outclassed by Bisharp for spamming its dark STAB, and Landorus-T who also had intimidate and a stronger earthquake. Dragon Dance lets it be a real offensive threat with great Dual STABs to abuse. Its Meh attack of 117 isn't very good unless boosted, and its middling 92 Base speed, while not horrible, leaves a lot to be desired, DD patches both of these up and makes Krook a monster, but it does have its flaws. You can get to +6 and still have to worry about priority, seeing as Krook is weak to common moves like Mach Punch, Aqua Jet and Ice Shard. Granted Bullet Punch isn't Super effective, but it will still hurt. Also, fully invested neutral speed misses out on outspending Base 145s such as Beedrill and Sceptile (mega forms of coarse) by 2 points, meaning they will outspeed and threaten you with their STABs. You can run Jolly to out pace them, but i personally like the damage output more than outspending 2 fairly uncommon megas. This is my second vote.
Gastrodon + Poison Heal: This guy. i love this thing. While the other 2 poison healers, Gliscor and Breloom, are viable, i never find myself using them, mostly because of their typing. They aren't necessarily bad, but both are weak to very common attacking types in OU. Gastrodon is only weak to grass, not only is it a very uncommon attacking type, but it can easily be prepared for with common resists, like heatran and Amoongus. Gastrodon is also quite bulky, so its not like Quagsire who relies on its typing to tank a lot of hits. It also has recover for annoyance and stealth rocks for support. I would've voted for Krook, but with such an offensive metagame, Krook would just be another Offensive threat. This guy is a defensive threat and while it might seem hypocritical that i won't vote Mantine, ill explain that I know how and what mantine will do, but Gastrodon is a much more unique and creative submission, so that earns my vote.
Typhlosion + Drought: Poor mans Charizard-Y. Pretty much if you wanna use a different mega, but still want Charizard-Ys wall breaking powers, this is the guy. They share the same speed tier, similar move pool, but Typhosion can hold specs, Life orb (i prefer life orb) to boost its lower base Special Attack stat. It also doesn't have a 4x weakness to rocks, but is vulnerable to ground moves, so its a double edged sword. Typlosion seems scary because when its at full HP, it can spam Eruption, and it'll be hard to switch into something to take a Base 150 STAB Life Orb boosted fire move in the sun, but even if you wear Typhlosion down, it'll go into Blaze range, and start spamming fire blast, so it always has a high base power STAB to fire off. While i do like the idea, it didn't get my vote because it pretty much will just do what Zard-Y does, but not take up the mega slot.
Edit: typhlosion can't use blaze with drought, but sun boosted fire blasts still hit hard.
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Just a reminder that it won't get down into the blaze range cause it gave up that ability. nice idea though.
Whoops derp. I guess having sun boosted fire blast is better though. My bad though.
why would you run life orb and eruption together
Specs and scarf are clearly the two best items that Typhlosion would run. Life orb could help it get past pokemon relying on it being locked into a move, but then it can't make use of one of it's greatest assets - eruption.
I figured being choice locked would ruin the coverage that fire/grass/fighting gives. I know this thing will just want to spam eruption, but I was comparing it to Zard-Y in my post, the life orb was a derp on my part, my bad I'm just on 4 hours of sleep.
Mantine + Roost: This is a really good addition; I'm not sure what I can add that everyone ese hasn't to be honest, it would make it a really annoying 'mon to face on stall teams. Would it face competition for the bulky water slot though? Or is what it provides that valuable to put it ahead of Quagsire, Slowbro, Suicune, and other contenders?
Krookodile + Dragon Dance: Man this is so good, it seems like Game Freak really disappointed with the Dark type pokes apart from Tyranitar and Bisharp, as most slates seem to have one! With the buff to Knock Off and great STABs, this thing is gonna hit like a truck once it gets going. Kind of like a mix between Bisharp and MoxieKrow, just with no Stealth Rock weakness and more speed.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 290-343 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes - Tasty!
Damn it also looks so cool! A major bonus for this guy is that being a ground type it doesn't get stopped by thundurus or Klefki, instead murdering them, and isn't really checked by non-superpower Lando T:
252 Atk Life Orb Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 204-242 (63.9 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Krookodile: 200-236 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Love this so much.
Gastrodon + Poison Heal: As an offense player, I'd hate to be up against this thing. It would lose its niche of checking rain:
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon in Rain: 253-300 (59.3 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
But it would be so difficult to break with a Curse set:
252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 213-252 (50 - 59.1%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
You'd have to hit it so hard to get it to go down, and with Scald/Waterfall/Earthquake, it's certainly not set up bait for anything but Grass types.
Typhlosion + Drought: I have to be honest, I'm not so much a fan of this, and can't see it being the revelation that everybody says it is. Maintaining a SR weakness, it's never going to hit a full power Eruption, and while its coverage moves are powerful, Focus Blast is inaccurate, and it really needs a Choice item to get the most out of its power. The problem is that Heatran, TTar and Talon exist, so it can rarely reliably fire off Specs-boosted fire-blasts, and it doesn't want to have to switch out after firing off a focus blast. I really think that this is the weakest of the slate.
Krookodile + Dragon Dance: Man this is so good, it seems like Game Freak really disappointed with the Dark type pokes apart from Tyranitar and Bisharp, as most slates seem to have one! With the buff to Knock Off and great STABs, this thing is gonna hit like a truck once it gets going. Kind of like a mix between Bisharp and MoxieKrow, just with no Stealth Rock weakness and more speed.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 290-343 (82.3 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes - Tasty!
Damn it also looks so cool! A major bonus for this guy is that being a ground type it doesn't get stopped by thundurus or Klefki, instead murdering them, and isn't really checked by non-superpower Lando T:
252 Atk Life Orb Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 204-242 (63.9 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Krookodile: 200-236 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Love this so much.
Gastrodon + Poison Heal: As an offense player, I'd hate to be up against this thing. It would lose its niche of checking rain:
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon in Rain: 253-300 (59.3 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
But it would be so difficult to break with a Curse set:
252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Gastrodon: 213-252 (50 - 59.1%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
You'd have to hit it so hard to get it to go down, and with Scald/Waterfall/Earthquake, it's certainly not set up bait for anything but Grass types.
Typhlosion + Drought: I have to be honest, I'm not so much a fan of this, and can't see it being the revelation that everybody says it is. Maintaining a SR weakness, it's never going to hit a full power Eruption, and while its coverage moves are powerful, Focus Blast is inaccurate, and it really needs a Choice item to get the most out of its power. The problem is that Heatran, TTar and Talon exist, so it can rarely reliably fire off Specs-boosted fire-blasts, and it doesn't want to have to switch out after firing off a focus blast. I really think that this is the weakest of the slate.
JS, but Charcoal would be a better item here. I mean, it does a good enough job at bluffing choice for its move-changing utility to be worth the power drop on its coverage options, and maintaining a 150 BP Eruption every time you come in is definitely better than boosting your coverage options imo, and if you really want to guarantee an OHKO on 248 HP/224 SpD relaxed Tyranitar with Focus Blast you can run Expert Belt (although I think that turning Eruption/Fire Blast into a guaranteed nuke is better personally, but that might just be me).
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Sorry to double post, but just noticed this.
- Quagsire: Being able to have Water Absorb without turning to complete garbage. Also Defog.
- Slowbro: Higher special bulk, speed, Defog, neutrality to Knock Off/Pursuit, Water Absorb.
- Suicune: Higher special bulk, Defog, reliable recovery, Water Absorb.
- Gyarados: Higher special bulk, reliable recovery, Defog, Water Absorb.
- Alomomola: Higher special bulk, Defog, single-turn recovery without switching, Water Absorb.
- Gastrodon: Higher special bulk, takes away what is basically (non-Poison Heal) Gastro's only niche (defensive counter to rain) by doing everything it can due to Water absorb and it now having reliable recovery, plus having access to Defog and not losing to Ludicolo.
- Slowking: Higher special bulk, speed, Water Absorb, neutrality to Knock Off/Pursuit.
No, I'd disagree with this. Part of what makes Gastrodon so good as a rain check in place of other Water Absorbers/Storm Drainers etc. is it's typing. This lets it resist Stone Edge carried by Kabutops, a common rain member, and being able to beat both that and Omastar with STAB Earthquake. Those two being far more common and viable than Ludicolo, for that matter. Don't just immediately assume a higher bulk makes you better than a defensive check; there's many other factors to consider.
That said I think I've been convinced on Mantine + Roost, just outclassing Gastrodon isn't one of it's merits lol.
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