Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

[Teeny Victory]

Ooooh a very cool looking slate! here are my thoughts:

Mantine + Roost
IDK why it doesn't learn this already, considering it is literally the special equivelant of skarmory, so this is some nice justice here. Makes it a prime choice on stall teams with its ability to counter top special threats like zard y, lando-i, keldeo and others. I can see it forming a nifty core with Hippowdon, with its ability to switch in on all Hippos weaknesses and Hippos ability to beat electric and rock types. So looks to be pretty cool, but that rocks weakness still really sucks.

Gastrodon + Poison heal
Kinda meh IMO. I always saw its biggest attribute as being a pain in the ass to rain teams and cock-blocking electric types volt switch, but now it would lose one of those traits. However, it does learn curse, so this could make curse sets really cool, as it would be unable to be statused, and it has recover to gain health much easier, so could be cool.

Typhlosion + Drought
I always hated this stupid fire-echidna thingy, but this is a considerable buff. I dont really see it revicing sun as a playstyle, as it doesnt have T-Tar, Hippo or Politoeds bulk to come in consistently and set the weather, but I do agree with others above me with the comparisons to Zard-Y. Typhlosion has the advantage of power (with specs) or speed (with scarf) and a lesser rocks weakness over Zard, while Zard has that much better bulk, better durability with roost, ability to switch moves and better defensive typing (ignoring the rocks weakness). So this thing looks like a really cool wallbreaker that would definitely make it OU viable!

Krookodile + Dragon Dance
Awww yis, now THIS one is getting my vote. Great defensive typing, amazing STAB combo, Strong Stabs, great abilitys, what more could you want?! Dragon Dance, thats what! Krook uses all its strong points and its great speed tier (1 point higher than scarf Lando hehe) to wreak havoc after a boost, and can even run pursuit to get more boost before dancing! So yeah, I'm hyped for this one, as Crocodiles are great animals and deserve more respect and can be dragons if they want to.
Also, this is what it looks like while using dragon dance IMO:

Hide

 

[Isa Simple]

Am I the only one who feels that we could come up with a far better Drought setter than Typhlosion?
Like its obviously a strong buff to Typhlosion but I just feel that it can't run Heat Rock viably at all. It needs to be either choice scarfed or choice specs, hence sun teams will still be below the margin.

Its reliance on Choice items make it either extremely easy to revenge kill as Specs or far more prediction reliant on scarf.

There is are plenty of fire resists that can avoid the 2HKO from a scarfed Eruption and threaten Typhlosion, and even more after 1 switch into SR at which point Eruptions BP become 112.
This forces Typhlosion to predict can use either Solar Beam or Focus Blast, which makes Typhlosion extremely easy to come in on once its locked in.
252 SpA Typhlosion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 152-180 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X in Sun: 93-109 (27.9 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados in Sun: 129-153 (38.9 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Rotom-W in Sun: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 192-226 (45.7 - 53.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (after 1 tick of SS dmg can't 2HKO)

Even the specs set has its check and it far easier to revenge kill.
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (112 BP) vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill in Sun: 143-168 (35.6 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (112 BP) vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X in Sun: 103-122 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 72.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (112 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy in Sun: 182-214 (45 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 52-62 (12.8 - 15.3%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 108-128 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- 89.9% chance to 3HKO

If it runs Heat Rock, it is checked by everything the Scarf set is checked by and revenged by everything the Specs set is revenge by. Both list are actually far longer than people are giving credit for. This thing despises SR.

I am not denying that Typhlosion will be extremely good, I just think that it won't really buff sun teams in any way and is being a bit over sold.

That said my vote will likely be going to Roost Mantine because it is literally all Mantine needs to put its unique typing (as far as OU viable pokemon goes) to great use and become a swell edition to stall teams.

 

[GlassVeins]

Don't think I put in my two cents earlier, so I'll do so now:
Mantine+roost
This honestly sounds pretty darn good given its stats. It can switch into almost any special attack bar t-bolt and survive. It can scald and/or toxic back, then just roost off the damage it took. Plus, scald is valuable chip damage coming off its decent special attack. A good mon for stall, and could work wonders with landorous-t in a core (just my idea)
Typhlosion+draught
It has the coverage, it has some speed, and it has some serious power now. It could be easily one of the best weather setters in OU with these attributes, particularly since its competitor takes up a mega slot, doesn't learn eruption( as far as I know) and is 4x weak to SR. Sun has fallen out of favor a bit, so this might be a great idea. Probably going to get my vote, tbh.
Poisioned slug:
Quag with free recovery and immunity to status. Another great defensive mon, but the other posters say it better
Dragon dance krookodile
Hmmm, this looks pretty great tbh. Would be the bane of all most psychic types in OU, more or less. Reflect type starmie would be a cold stop ( haven't run calcs though). Seems like it could be a little bit OP to me. Sorry if I offended anyone

night, y'all

 

[trc]

i don't usually respond to these types of threads, but i felt that mantine + roost was a great suggestion for the slate and something that, i think, people are severely underrating. mantine already has the raw bulk and advantageous typing that should allow it to switch in to a wealth of pokemon in ou, but without being able to alleviate damage taken from switching in, from stealth rock, mantine is unable to often make a lasting impact in a game. roost however, changes it up a bit. here is the set i'd use:

Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 156 Def / 104 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Roost
- Toxic / Defog
- Haze / Defog / Air Slash

this set is an effective answer to a number of difficult-to-check pokemon in ou, including landorus-i (which is incredibly popular and good at the moment and potentially an s rank threat), mega charizard y, keldeo, calm mind clefable, mega sableye (can haze the cm set and scald burn it while also stalling it out regardless of the burn), and special mega altaria (90.6% of the time with stealth rock, and fully without it), as well as a many other special attackers, although a few pokemon such as tg rd manaphy can pp stall it. the reason the slashes are like they are is because mantine would really like to use defog + haze + toxic but it can't fit it in one set. without toxic, it can't beat roost mega altaria and roost mega charizard y, and without haze it can't stop calm mind clefable and calm mind mega sableye, however, you can forgo defog if you have another hazard remover which isn't unlikely tbh. air slash is just to damage grasses and conk. the spread i use avoids the 2hko from keldeo secret swords after rocks, among other things.

here are some calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 104+ SpD Mantine: 105-125 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Mantine: 114-134 (34.2 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 104+ SpD Mantine in Sun: 108-128 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 104+ SpD Mantine: 105-124 (31.5 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 104+ SpD Mantine: 118-139 (35.4 - 41.7%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

if you use another defogger and go with toxic + haze (the best idea i think) then you don't have to worry about rocks as much and since mantine is immune to spikes and tspikes it's often tanking hits quite well. or a mega sableye.

 

[firehusky]

Mantine + Roost
Mantine is basically the special version of Skarmory. Roost enables it to act as a decent special wall, and a great answer to non-HP Electric Keldeo and Landorus-I. However, it's still rather slow and is weak to SR. Stall teams really lack an answer to Knock Off Lando-I, and this could be a perfect answer to it.

Krookodile + Dragon Dance
Krookodile has solid bulk and great STABs in Earthquake and Knock Off. However, Moxie is what sets it apart from other Dragon Dancers. Once Krookodile gets up one boost, it'll be really hard to wall.

Gastrodon + Poison Heal
Gastrodon holding a Toxic Orb will be really hard to break through. It only has one 4x weakness to Grass, and lots of mons in OU can cover that weakness. This is basically Gliscor with a better typing and Scald, which is really nice. Recover also allows it to stay healthy, and it's really hard to wear down.

Typhlosion + Drought
Finally another Johto starter that can compete with Feraligatr :D Typhlosion has always been one of my favorite mons (it was the first mon I got to level 100), and Drought is a nice buff to it. Scarf + Eruption in Sun is very scary, and it has great coverage moves such as hidden power, focus blast, extrasensory, and solarbeam!! This could be a deadly late game sweeper (with scarf), or a wallbreaker (with specs).


252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios in Sun: 245-288 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 274-324 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria in Sun: 256-302 (83.3 - 98.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye in Sun: 348-411 (114.4 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune in Sun: 237-279 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Typhlosion can muscle it's way past bulky waters such as Suicune with eruption, and it pretty much 2HKOes chansey with eruption, which is super scary.
Even though every mon on this slate is good, Typhlosion is definitely going to get my vote.

 

[leremyju]

+ Roost
I atually think is very good. Mantine is an amazing SpDef wall and defogger. With Roost it would be extremely good and not forced to run either Protect or Resttalk. Unfortunatley I don't think this will raise its usage in OU, but more in the lower tiers.

+ Dragon Dance
I don't see the hype in this. It's good but not exceptionally good. Still weak to the priority mach punches and everypresent fairy typing. It will find it somewhat hard to set up but it has a decent chance of destroying from there.

+ Poison Heal
Curse Gastrodon anyone? Anyways this is like Gliscor but Gliscor has the better movepool in taunt and Swords DAnce and Knock Off. Poison Heal Gastrodon would be aids I don't see how you take this mofo down.

+ Drought
This looks nice. A Scarf set with Drought would heavily punish things, but there is a lot of sand and rain offense so I'm ot sure it would be too effective in the current metagame.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Oh?

4 good options. For me it's between mantine and krookodile. I hate gliscore and I'll probably hate gastrodon too, and I don't see myself ever using typhlosion over charizard as a sun nuke and I don't see it reviving sun either.

I see mantine a lot like I see skarmory. Walls a huge number of pokes, hazard control, and great defensive synergy. Skarmory is one of the most useful pokes in the tier, and while sr weakness is annoying, that didn't diminish how much I'll love this.

Dragon dance meanwhile is my favorite Move in the game. Krookodile with its great abilities to abuse it and great coverage is just perfect. Intimidate lets you set up easily, especially with that Move pool. Even if you don't get the dance off, every team can use a knock off or pursuit trapper

 

[SparksBlade]

SHIT WHAT??!!!! god really i never knew flying fish and salemance didn't get those(specs roost ftw!!!). 3-way tie b/w those and Typhlosion for me atm. fuk slimy fish-pretender. not a kwality post i guess but all the calcs and pros-cons have been done already, nothing left for me.

edit: k there was 1 thing left that i could do
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine in Sun: 138-162 (41.3 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
peace

 

[Kejmur]

Hmmm... 4 interesting options and I need to think which one is the best one in my book.

Mantine + Roost = What I like about this entry is that Mantine provide unique typing for Defogger as outside of SR weakness Water/Flying has really nice amount of resistances and immunity as a bonus as well. With it it should have solid niche in metagame.

Krookodile + Dragon Dance = I wouldn't underestimate this one. For first - it has really easy time to set-up with Intimidate in and just enough resistances to make it work. Dark/Ground coverage provides really good synergy and should be enough to clean up late game. Only problem I have here is that 92 Speed isn't exactly that high at the moment even after Dragon Dance as there are scarfers which easily outspeed you and your typing leaves you with problematic weaknesses to some priority attacks (mostly Aqua Jet from Azumarill and Mach Punch from Conkeldurr) when they try to revenge kill you. It's fine in overall, but question is - why would I run this over other Dragon Dance picks like Dragonite, MegaGyarados or even Haxorus which provide higher power after Dragon Dance or just are in overall bulkier on both sides of defensive spectrum (as on physical with intimidate it's pretty tanky) and are harder to revenge kill. 117 base attack and 92 speed just doesn't cut it in my opinion.

Typhlosion + Drought = While power is certainly there problem I see that it's limited to technically only Scarf and maybe Specs as on non-choice item sets it's IMO outclassed by MegaCharizard Y which provides really high power as well and unlike Typhlosion can heal himself back with Roost, giving him longer overall longevity. And while both are weak to SR (and Typhlosion only take 25% on switch) it's REALLY weak to Spikes and Toxic Spikes which Charizard Y just ignore, IMO making it a bit less hazard weak. Plus Typhlosion can't take any serious damage before switching in to abuse Eruption, which may be a big problem if you can't stop your opponents from throwing hazards, so Scarf (or Specs) deal with serious problem here. Also the neccesity to run Choice sets is that you are really heavy predicition reliant as Heatran is really popular Pokemon in overall. But yeah, it doesn't take your Mega Slot. IMO it's fun looking pick, but it's pretty one-dimensional and struggle with hazards a bit too much to make me choose it, especially as it can't heal himself back like MegaCharizard Y and is forced to run Choice sets to not be outclassed. Choice Specs hits like a nuke though (and IMO is better set here). Just make sure hazards are not up. And I forgot to mention - it also can't exactly provide sun support for teammates as he needs those items to function properly. It won't revive sun by itself as a playstyle. And for standalone sun sweeper/wallbreaker it seriously competes with Zard Y and doesn't provide any unique niche back.

Poison Heal Gastrodon = This one looks annoying to face with really solid overall bulk and insane sustain to match it up. Access to Recover makes it really hard to kill unless you use really strong attacks. If opponents team isn't really hard hitting or doesn't have good Taunt user which doesn't care that much about Scald burns - someone may be in trouble. Also it's not exactly outclassed or even comparable to Gliscor as it has different typing which make it wall different things then Gliscor. Although you can still go with physically defensive investment if you feel like it and with additional recovery from Poison Heal it may avoid some deadly hits it couldn't otherwise. Heck, people may start running random Grass attacks as this one REALLY looks annoying to handle.

So personally I would vote for Poison Heal Gastrodon or Mantine + Roost. Not sure which one yet though.

 

[ShatteredSummers]

I'm all for Mantine with Roost.
Krookodile with Dragon Dance is pretty scary, but I secretly wish it got Swords Dance instead.
I wonder if Typhosion getting Drought would make Sun legal in UU. Most likely it would get kicked, and if it does, it's sort of like a faster Char-Y that doesn't take up a mega slot.
And Poison Heal Gastrodon, like Kejmur said, seems like an pretty annoying bastard to face. While it's been improved greatly with Toxic Heal, I feel it's going to be something like CroCune, that won't die unless you hake a wallbreaker or a super effective move.

 

[Yayz]

The funny thing about Mantine being a good Keldeo counter is that Keldeo can run HP Electric, doing 67-79% with Specs, and 59-70% with a LO. But it doesn't take a genius to realize that.

Anyway, I'm probably in the same boat as most people being torn between Mantine and Krookodile. I like them both. One of them is a defensively awesome and the other is offensively awesome.

I don't have much to say that hasn't been said by others, though.

 

[firehusky]

But seriously, Drought Typhlosion is really good. It can run a strong specs set, allowing it to become a powerful wallbreaker, or a scarf set to act as a revenge killer. It checks lots of mons in the tier, such as mega metagross, mega diancie, mega sableye, and mega scizor. It has extremely high powered STAB moves and coverage moves in the form of eruption (150 BP), fire blast (110 BP), focus blast (120 BP) and solar beam (110 BP). Not to mention that it doesn't use up a mega slot, and drought allows it to weaken water-type moves, and it powers up eruption to almost 340 BP. It can even run a mixed set with flare blitz because it's attack stat isn't too shabby. It has a great speed tier for a wallbreaker and a scarfer. 100 base speed with a scarf is enough to outpace the most common scarfer in the meta, landorus-t, and 100 base speed allows it to outspeed many walls such as rotom-w, chansey, clefable, heatran, etc. 78 / 78 / 85 bulk also isn't too bad, allowing it to sponge lots of resisted hits, and even some powerful neutral hits. People are saying zard y is better than drought typhlosion, but I don't neccesarily agree. Typhlosion hits harder with specs, and isn't 4x weak to SR. Sure it lacks reliable recovery, but as a wallbreaker, it doesn't really need it that much.

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 486-573 (120.2 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 357-420 (88.3 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Sun: 387-456 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Sun: 283-334 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Sun: 249-294 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even if typhlosion is holding scarf instead of specs, it's eruption outdamages zard y's fire blast.

252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 325-384 (80.4 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Sun King]

I would hesitate to post calcs on Eruption at 150BP because realistically, Typhlosion is going to have SOME form of residual damage. I think the most relevant calcs would be at either 75% (112 BP) or at the very least 88% (132 BP). They're both shockingly powerful, but they're not as absurd as a 150 BP nuke.

 

[firehusky]

I would hesitate to post calcs on Eruption at 150BP because realistically, Typhlosion is going to have SOME form of residual damage. I think the most relevant calcs would be at either 75% (112 BP) or at the very least 88% (132 BP). They're both shockingly powerful, but they're not as absurd as a 150 BP nuke.

Even at 112 BP, Eruption still hits much harder than Zard Y's Fire Blast. The point I'm trying to make is that Zard Y doesn't outclass Typhlosion; Typhlosion hits harder with specs, and isn't 4x weak to SR.

 

[Kejmur]

Even at 112 BP, Eruption still hits much harder than Zard Y's Fire Blast. The point I'm trying to make is that Zard Y doesn't outclass Typhlosion; Typhlosion hits harder with specs, and isn't 4x weak to SR.

On the other hand it's really weak to Spikes and Toxic Spikes while still heavily weak to SR. Problem is that if your opponent is good, you may struggle to even get a chance to abuse full power Eruption. Heck you may have trouble to get that 112 base power as in some moments Typhlosion may be forced to handle resisted hit (as it can't switch on anything else unless it's WoW) and take SR in. Even if it switches on weak fire attack and takes let's say 15-20% of HP while switching on SR, you suddenly end up with Typhlosion which has around 55-60% of HP (in this example) so his Eruption is much weaker. Sure, you may run Defog support, but you may say the same about Charizard-Y while he may himself back just in case with Roost. Typhlosion can't do it. Heck, I don't exactly see that many switch opportiunities for Typhlosion as his bulk isn't exactly outstanding while Fire/Flying provides far more switch-in opportiunities then mono Fire (as long as SR isn't up but Typhlosion is hazard weak as well). So in many scenarios you may end up needing to death fodder something to make sure Typhlosion get in for free. It means you lost something, so you are already at disadvantage. And at this moment you rely on prediction as you must run Choice item to not be outclassed by MegaZard-Y. So if you opponent still has Heatran (or just a really good Fire resist like AV Slowking or something), you may end up in situation where you took heavy damage while doing nothing if you predict wrong.

So to summarize those are my main issues with Typhlosion here when compared to MegaZard-Y:

A) It's still really weak to SR while it dislikes taking Spikes and Toxic Spikes (and Toxic as a bonus). His main nuke which is Eruption rely on Typhlosion being healthy, which may be really hard to do against offensive comps (it's not an issue with Scarf, but it's MUCH weaker then Specs and Specs isn't exactly fast for OU metagame) and Stall/Defensive teams always carry some hazards/status to make sure Typhlosion has hard time being healthy. And if you are forced to use Fire Blast, Charizard-Y straight up outclass it and difference in damage with Fire Blast isn't high enough IMO (yes, Typhlosion hits harder with Specs) to run this IMO as provided in earlier calculations (while it's true that Typhlosion reaches 1 hit kills instead of 2 on Mew and Cresselia, but... you outspeed them anyway as MegaZard-Y so point is IMO moot, they die anyway unless you get unlucky miss). Also you still rely on prediction here as you are Choice locked. This is main problem here - it relies too much on Eruption as main damage source and it's REALLY weak to all kinds of hazards which sucks. Plus unlike Charizard-Y it doesn't have lots of useful resistances to switch into and his bulk is mediocre at best so he will take pretty high damage even against strong resisted hits like let's say Specs Sylveon or Offensive Heatran.
B) It requires even more support then MegaZard-Y which tells you how troublesome it sounds. Defog support (or Rapid Spin), probably force you to death fodder often if you run more offensive team or Healing Wish, he doesn't bring anything great when it goes to resistances (he has few, but misses bulk to use them) and he MUST be healthy for Eruption unlike Charizard-Y which may heal himself back with Roost and still hit hard with Fire Blast coming off much higher base special attack. Plus it's not prediction reliant like Typhlosion which must run Choice items to not be outclassed. Specs Eruption is a nasty nuke, I admit it, problem is in realistic scenarios how you want to abuse it in really good way without death foddering something or without heavy prediction reliance. VoltTurn teams may be good here, but if hazards are up, it works totally against you. For me this sounds like one a lot of annoying trouble to deal with and fire attacks still has heavy water resists and immunities to deal with this unlike let's say Specs Sylveon which also hits really hard and provides much more bulk and resistances on the table. Or Specs Kelder which has lots of good resistances to bring on the table.
C) So yeah, it's not outclassed per se as MegaZard-Y can't obviously run Choice items so it gives Typhlosion solid on paper niche. But is it really worth it ALL the support you MUST provide it and troubles it must deal with ? Why not run another hard hitting Specs user which isn't as hazard weak and actually has solid resistances or natural bulk to switch in far more frequently then Typhlosion ? Also Typhlosion isn't that fast for Specs user so it's use to revenge kill as well (and hates strong priority) and as a Scarf user it misses lots of power so it's much easier to handle.

So yeah, I'm not a fan of this one myself. Damage is insane (mostly Specs), true, but it deals with lots of problems I mentioned earlier in this post.

 

[AM]

Fire Blast is more consistent on Typhlosion anyways for its base power that isn't dependent on its HP unlike Eruption. You really don't have to run Eruption on this thing all the time lol. If anything Eruption + Fire Blast + 2 coverage moves such as Focus Blast / w/e is all you need.

I think it's unfair to say it necessitates hazard support and that is supposably a burden on it when this can be said for anything SR weak yet we have viable hazard removal in the tier to begin with, with a handful of them providing resistances or immunities to Typhlosions problems like the Latis for a water resist and ground immunity.

 

[firehusky]

long scholarly post

Eruption is just a bonus for drought typhlosion, it's not like that's the only move it learns. If you're at 65%, don't use eruption, use fire blast instead. It's specs fire blast still hits harder than zard y's fire blast. Spike stacking and toxic spike stacking isn't even that good in this meta, and it's not like you see mons running spikes on every team. But on almost every team, you're going to be seeing SR. Specs typhlosion is a wallbreaker, it's speed tier is amazing for one. You think zard y outclasses typhlosion without a strong eruption? rofl. Specs typhlosion's fire blast still hits much harder than zard y's fire blast. Typhlosion needs choice items to not be outclassed by zard y? Yeah well guess what, charizard wastes up your mega slot in order to not get outclassed by typhlosion. Yeah typhlosion does require some support, doesn't every SR weak mon? But it's not like eruption is it's only advantage over zard y. Run some calcs. Fire blast typhlosion hits harder than zard y. It also is super powerful as a revenge killer if running choice scarf.
Your argument is pretty much based off of the fact that typhlosion's only niche is specs eruption, and that's not true. Eruption is just icing on the cake. Even if typhlosion didn't learn eruption, it would still be insanely strong. Early game when typhlosion hasn't taken lots of damage, you can go around spamming specs eruption. Late game when typhlosion is at low speed, you can use fire blast, which is still insanely strong.
To recap, I will list typhlosion's advantages over zard y:

• Doesn't take up a mega slot. This one is huge, as the competition for a mega slot is even fiercer in ORAS than it was in XY. By using zard y, you could have been using other mega such as mega altaria, sableye, gallade, mega metagross, lopunny etc
• Hits harder. specs eruption is an epic nuke. Even if you're at like 30% and eruption will be weak, you can still use fire blast, which still hits harder than zard y. Feel free to not even run eruption. You can even run a set with fire blast / focus blast / coverage moves and still be good, because of typhlosion's insane power
• Typhlosion can hold a choice scarf, allowing it to outspeed pretty much the entire metagame, and revenge kill lots of mons. This gives it a an advantage over zard y, as most of the time, zardy will be getting a kill, and then your opponent will send in something that can force it out, such as latios, giving your opponent momentum. Even without a boosting item, typhlosion still hits pretty darn hard.
• Typhlosion is only 2x weak to SR. Your point about toxic spikes and spikes doesn't make that much sense because you won't be seeing spikes and t spikes on every team, but you will be seeing SR on every team you face. SR severely cuts down on the number of times zard y can switch in. Of course zard y does have roost, but pretty much every time zard y switches in on SR, it will be forced to roost.

tl;dr, typhlosion is not outclassed by zard y in any shape or form, hits much harder, can run a scarf set to revenge kill lots of mons, doesn't use up your mega slot, and it's not like eruption is typhlosion's only move

 

[Kejmur]

Eruption is just a bonus for drought typhlosion, it's not like that's the only move it learns. If you're at 65%, don't use eruption, use fire blast instead. It's specs fire blast still hits harder than zard y's fire blast. Spike stacking and toxic spike stacking isn't even that good in this meta, and it's not like you see mons running spikes on every team. But on almost every team, you're going to be seeing SR. Specs typhlosion is a wallbreaker, it's speed tier is amazing for one. You think zard y outclasses typhlosion without a strong eruption? rofl. Specs typhlosion's fire blast still hits much harder than zard y's fire blast. Typhlosion needs choice items to not be outclassed by zard y? Yeah well guess what, charizard wastes up your mega slot in order to not get outclassed by typhlosion. Yeah typhlosion does require some support, doesn't every SR weak mon? But it's not like eruption is it's only advantage over zard y. Run some calcs. Fire blast typhlosion hits harder than zard y. It also is super powerful as a revenge killer if running choice scarf.
Your argument is pretty much based off of the fact that typhlosion's only niche is specs eruption, and that's not true. Eruption is just icing on the cake. Even if typhlosion didn't learn eruption, it would still be insanely strong. Early game when typhlosion hasn't taken lots of damage, you can go around spamming specs eruption. Late game when typhlosion is at low speed, you can use fire blast, which is still insanely strong.
To recap, I will list typhlosion's advantages over zard y:

• Doesn't take up a mega slot. This one is huge, as the competition for a mega slot is even fiercer in ORAS than it was in XY. By using zard y, you could have been using other mega such as mega altaria, sableye, gallade, mega metagross, lopunny etc
• Hits harder. specs eruption is an epic nuke. Even if you're at like 30% and eruption will be weak, you can still use fire blast, which still hits harder than zard y. Feel free to not even run eruption. You can even run a set with fire blast / focus blast / coverage moves and still be good, because of typhlosion's insane power
• Typhlosion can hold a choice scarf, allowing it to outspeed pretty much the entire metagame, and revenge kill lots of mons. This gives it a an advantage over zard y, as most of the time, zardy will be getting a kill, and then your opponent will send in something that can force it out, such as latios, giving your opponent momentum. Even without a boosting item, typhlosion still hits pretty darn hard.
• Typhlosion is only 2x weak to SR. Your point about toxic spikes and spikes doesn't make that much sense because you won't be seeing spikes and t spikes on every team, but you will be seeing SR on every team you face. SR severely cuts down on the number of times zard y can switch in. Of course zard y does have roost, but pretty much every time zard y switches in on SR, it will be forced to roost.

tl;dr, typhlosion is not outclassed by zard y in any shape or form, hits much harder, can run a scarf set to revenge kill lots of mons, doesn't use up your mega slot, and it's not like eruption is typhlosion's only move

Oh I never said Specs Fire Blast is weak, I mentioned in post that it's still stronger then MegaZard-Y Fire Blast, maybe I wasn't clear enough. What I mean here is this -> is it worth it to rely on predictions (as with Choice sets you will rely on them anyway) when it doesn't really miss on anything slower and unlike high HP Eruption it's not WTF NUKE damage ? It's still high, but it's not that high that even many resists can't handle it. MegaZard Y has this luxury that he may switch a move in case he gets overpredicted. Typhlosion doesn't have this luxury and Fire while good typing offensively isn't on the same level as let's say Water, Fairy or Dark and it still has x4 resistanced and immunities to deal with. Is there anything from walls where that additional damage difference in Fire Blasts between Specs Typhlosion and MegaZard Y matter (outside of pink blobs I assume and Hippowdon with SpD EVs when he takes Eruption in the face) ? I didn't check some calculations, so maybe it does matter. But seeing earlier examples (like Mew, Cresselia, etc.) you hit weaker, 100% true, but you still 2HKO them anyway (and other bulky neutral targets) ? As I prefer the luxury of the ability to switch between moves if you ask me as both just hit hard enough to beat what they need to beat. This is what I mean - later on when you are too weak to use Eruption Fire Blast damage is still strong but it's not WTF level damage, so it's much easier to handle with resists and immunities. And later on if you mispredict you may be in trouble. With MegaZard-Y you may fix the misprediction with choosing another move. With Typhlosion - you can't.

Spike stacking isn't exactly easy with Defog in overall - 100% true, but it still may show up. And 25% against 50% isn't as high difference when you take into account that you still prefer to be really healthy (as Specs Fire Blast hurts of course, but it's just easier to handle) and can't heal damage back unlike MegaZard-Y.

I admit that it sucks to loose Mega Slot, but I mostly meant direct comparisons between two. But yeah, this is big advantage for Typhlosion.

On Choice Scarf - yeah, it's not outclassed and it gives him totally different niche, but I mentioned it.

Speed for wallbreaker is good at base 100, but it's still misses against more offensive targets. But I admit MegaZard-Y deal with the same problem here basically, so it's a draw.

Thx for responding btw, good discussion. Typhlosion still looks like a good entry (like other 3 of course), I'm just not a fan of problems it must deal with. But you can't ignore that damage as it's high. But I still prefer MegaZard-Y (if I can afford to dedicate mega slot, which I can't ignore of course) as MegaZard-Y still hits really hard while it allow me to keep that luxury of relying less on predictions and allow me to heal damage/SR back if neccesary making it a bit less support reliant. That's all ;). But I admit that if you want to dedicate MegaSlot for something else and want strong Drought user, Typhlosion may give you something you need as Ninetales for obvious reason doesn't come close here. Maybe I was a bit too harsh in some moments I guess as it's still good at what it does in overall.

 

[DJTHED]

MegaZard Y has this luxury that he may switch a move in case he gets overpredicted. Typhlosion doesn't have this luxury

To be honest, I don't think Typholsion HAS to run a choice item. I could see something like Charcoal/Flame Plate being viable since it allows you to switch moves. Life Orb may also work on non-Eruption sets. Just me though.

 

[Kejmur]

To be honest, I don't think Typholsion HAS to run a choice item. I could see something like Charcoal/Flame Plate being viable since it allows you to switch moves. Life Orb may also work on non-Eruption sets. Just me though.

Yeah he can run something else, but I don't think damage difference between him and Zard-Y is just big enough to justify it or missing speed from Scarf and unlike Charizard-Y it doesn't provide good bulk or additional resistances to pick it over MegaZard-Y. Also I think that if you run Charcoal/Flame Plate I think you actually hit for less damage (outside of Eruption) then MegaZard-Y. This is what I mean by outclassed as if he does that as you can't deny difference in power between MegaZard-Y and Typhlosion when it goes to base Special Attack (109 vs 159 is massive difference). Typhlosion needs Specs here to make up for that difference (and get on lead as a bonus) or Scarf to get much higher speed then MegaZard-Y. Although you may use this to your advantage and use it as a lure as not many people will expect it but you will LOTS of power or LOTS of speed, so I don't think it's worth it. But yeah, again Mega Slot thing comes into play and I can't deny that point.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Not bothered to do long post, interesting slate though :]

Mantine + Roost is interesting, but I never liked Mantine anyway (bad gen 4 experiences when i taught it waterfall by accident). I guess it does allow Mantine to check stuff like lando-i, keldeo, altaria, sableye, but SR weakness, not a great defense stat do hold it back. Probably won't be getting my vote.

Krookodile + d-dance Im reminded of salamence once again 'cos moxie d-dance, but it would be an amazing cleaner in reality. Great dual STABs and decent bulk allow it to pull a boost off against weaker stuff like -2 latios. prevalence of fairies and priority is a real problem for krook though. I do love the concept :)

Gastrodon + poison heal Hey I actually like this one, I've been using gastrodon in ou since the start of xy when i joined smogon competitively, not the best 'mon but decent bulk, access to reliable recovery, great typing is a great niche for gastro, and with poison heal this shit does not die... Eh I liked storm drain to screw over rain, but maybe if you want to use a rain-screwer choose seismitoad instead. (not that i'm comparing those two)

Typhlosion + eruption This thing looks like a great wallbreaker, yeah as some people said reviving the sun playstyle a bit. However, i've never actually liked typhlosion (i know i should look at things competitively, but eh) Looks absolutely terrifying in reality though.

 

[Zapdos101]

Gastrodon + Poison Heal sounds amazing, with its excellent typing and bulk it would be damn near impossible to kill without setup, wallbreakers or Grass. This would be terrifying and is my favorite of them.

 

[Kabuu]

First off, hello! This is my first actual post on the Showdown forums, the first two were just votes, though I've been a long time lurker, whether I've had an account or not.

Getting straight to business, I feel that Mantine + Roost is the best one out of this slate. Its typing is a breath of fresh air in OU for a defensive 'mon; its stats, while somewhat low, are well-distributed enough to carve a niche in the tier. This thing is literally a special Skarmory, and we all know how effective Skarmory is at doing its job. Roost would be a massive aid to Mantine's cause. Also, as previously stated, it walls some very prevalent threats in the meta right now, such as Keldeo, Manaphy, Landorus, Clefable, Mega Slowbro, Heatran and Mega Venusaur. It has Haze to stave off setup sweepers trying to roll over its team; it has Defog to clear hazards; this thing is a huge asset to stall and balanced teams.

A Mantine + Ferrothorn core in particular would be great, as the two complement each other greatly, with Mantine being immune to Ground and resisting Fire and Fighting moves aimed at Ferrothorn, which shrugs off Electric and Rock moves aimed at Mantine. In fact, the duo together resists everything besides Ice, Flying, Ghost and Dark. That's pretty nice for just a two-'mon core.

Gastrodon + Poison Heal would have probably gotten my vote if it wasn't for its amazing competitor. Its typing is great; its bulk is hulking; it possesses reliable recovery; it has Scald to annoy whatever is thrown at it. Poison Heal would turn what used to be a weakness into a tool used for its success. Teams would definitely start packing Grass-type moves after taking sight of this.

Krookodile + Dragon Dance sounds like quite a menace to face. None of its stats really stand out from its OU competition on paper, but with access to either Intimidate for a bulkier approach or Moxie for a slaughterhouse appeal, a good offensive typing, moves that can put the hurt on a wide array of 'mons between its STABs and coverage moves such as Stone Miss, a somewhat-lacking but not molasses-slow speed tier and great natural bulk, this thing could definitely put in some work given the opportunity. However, I felt that the latter two 'mons were just better thought-out casts than Krookodile. The aqua-mons have been confined to the depths of RU and NU, while Krookodile has been basking in UU since its conception, and need time to shine.

Typhlosion + Drought although a strong cast, I think is the weakest out of the four. Yeah sure, it hits like a nuke, is quite fast, has decent bulk that allows it to survive resisted hits if need be and pretty solid coverage. However, frankly, I just like the previous three more. If this was re-cast, I could see it winning the slate if the competition wasn't just so solid like this one's is.

This was definitely the best slate we've had yet, but unless I see some convincing arguments from the other side, the blanket ray bird-fish is what will be getting my vote.

 

[Valmanway]

Roost Mantine: Mantine has a few problems that make its life in OU hard to maintain, including a 4x Electric weakness, a Stealth Rock weakness, and most importantly, a lack of reliable recovery. With Roost, Mantine's survivability has greatly improved, as now that it has Roost, Mantine's basically the specially defensive, Water-type variant of Skarmory. Much more importantly, Mantine becomes MUCH better at taking on Landorus, Mega Charizard Y, and Choice Specs Keldeo, so stall teams will definitely get a kick out of Roost Mantine. Really, a lack of recovery was Mantine's biggest issue, as it already has plenty to work with, with Scald to spread burns and make up for its bad Defense, Defog to clear hazards away, Water Veil to cut off burn spreaders, and very useful resistances to Water-, Steel-, Fire-, and Fighting-type moves and a Ground immunity. Even though I hate stall teams to hell and back, I can't deny that this would be a cool addition to stall teams.

Dragon Dance Krookodile: Simply amazing, or overpowered? I honestly can't tell. Krookodile has access to two good abilities in Moxie and Intimidate, where the former can make sweeping even lightly damaged teams a breeze once the ball starts rolling, and the latter can possibly create more opportunities to set up by weakening physical attackers, so there's already some good variety. But this sounds just like Gyarados, right? Well it does so far, but there are some key differences. The different typing is notable, as not only is Ground/Dark coverage very nice (Krookodile also gets Knock Off, mind you), but it also provides very convenient resistances to Dark- and Rock-type moves, as well as immunities to Electric- and Psychic-type moves, thus providing better setup opportunities against different foes. Having higher Speed is also pretty sweet, as having just barely more Speed than Landorus-T is pretty convenient for a Dragon Dancer. Finally, having an Electric immunity means Thundurus and Klefki can't mess your sweep up, which is a pretty big selling point on its own. The only flaws I can think of are its 6 weaknesses and vulnerability to burns and Toxic, but these cons are heavily outweighed by its pros. I'm really liking this one, and this just might get my vote.

Poison Heal Gastrodon: Now that the Poison Heal hype from a few months back has died down, I'm actually appreciative about seeing it again, and Gastrodon is an interesting choice. Gastrodon may be sacrificing its Water immunity, but status immunity and constant recovery is an amazing trade-off. You might think it's a special version of Gliscor, and you could certainly use it like that, but the status immunity and constant recovery make a Curse set seem very threatening. With Curse, not only does Gastrodon's offensive prowess go up, but its Defense will slowly but surely rise to near unbreakable levels if given the chance, and Gastrodon does have usable stats for the role. It's very reminiscent of Poison Heal Snorlax, just less broken, which I can appreciate. Just like the rest of the slate, I'm really liking this one.

Drought Typhlosion: Okay, so this isn't going to be reviving sun teams, but it's still hard to deny the raw power that this can provide. Basically, it can either be a powerful wallbreaker with Life Orb and Fire Blast or a revenge killer with Choice Scarf and Eruption (or Overheat, depending on personal preference). In my honest opinion, this is almost completely better than Mega Charizard Y, mainly due to lacking a 4x Rock weakness, not taking up a Mega Slot, and being able to hold items. Life Orb Typhlosion hits almost exactly as hard as Mega Charizard Y, and while Eruption isn't a very good option with Life Orb, Fire Blast is still a brutally effective move, and having Choice Scarf would make it a very effective revenge killer with Eruption or Overheat breaking offensive Pokemon. If you felt like it, you could go with Choice Specs and Eruption to get some pretty scary results:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 274-324 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Ouch.)

Simply put, I love this thing, and it's also a serious contender for getting my vote.

 

[GlassVeins]

Hey, I know that this might go against the spirit of this thread, but is it possible that we might add all of a slate? I mean, tbh, I think that all of the mons are so good here, there's no real standout, and most of the people who've weighed in here have said much the same thing: this is a slate where every single mon is a winner. for example if mantine+roost been on other slate against Simple+Mega Audino it certainly would have gotten my vote, and probably would have won. I'm already guessing Sun King won't like or agree with this thinking, but hey, I think it's worth a shot, cause every single pokemon has an excellent improvement.
EDIT: sorry for da bias spooderman