Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[Albacore]

I, for one, don't think Gliscor rising to S rank is as far-fetched as some seem to think. There are very few Pokémon which are able to just beat teams as consistently as Gliscor while still retaining this much defensive utility. In many ways, it reminds me of Mew at its prime, or Clefable right now. The thing is, neither of these ever have been S rank, simply because they have pretty well-defined counters and aren't too difficult to take advantage of. And while Gliscor is, generally speaking, harder to take advantage of than these two, it still has the problems you would expect in a defensive Pokemon. A lot of the time, it's forced into situations where it has to predict how the opponent will react. For intance, you send it in against Ferrothorn. Will the opponent switch out to Keldeo? Will he switch out to HP Ice Landorus-I? Or will he stay in and Leech Seed? And yes, Knock Off is really spammable, but coming from an unstabbed uninvested base 95 Attack, you're still not preventing a bunch of Pokemon from forcing you out, and a few megas (YZard, Slowbro, Gyarados, Altaria especially pre-mega) don't really care either way (though I guess Facade hurts a bit if Gliscor carries it but that's imo a lesser option than Knock Off in most cases, mainly because you lose great utility). At times, Gliscor can be a bit of a momentum-killer.

That being said, that's really the only problem I have with Gliscor. Its ability to completely terrorise slower bulky teams as well counter some of the biggest threats in the metagame, making it very easy to slap on a large number of teams, defenitely makes it at least a candidate for S rank, so please don't dismiss this nomination.

 

[AM]

What do you guys think about Feraligatr? Sheer Force Feraligatr has been legal for a few days so I would say it's been enough time for us to have a general idea of its rank in mind. Unfortunately, I haven't had any time to play on Showdown recently so I wouldn't really know where it belongs, however, based off of complete theorymon, I think C/C+/B- would be appropriate for now.

When suggesting rankings don't go off of theorymon. It's a waste of time because theorymon in correlation to our rankings need to apply to a level of practicality a threat can excel at or lack of, if making a comparison to say drop or whatever the case may be. This was in reference to the Feraligatr comment up above by the way.

If I haven't spewed enough crap here already, I'm going to be that guy and ask why Mega Shiny-eyeballs is S rank? This thing easily takes the cake as the most overrated Pokemon I've ever seen; by no stretch is it bad, but S is blowing that thing completely out of proportion. Shiny-peepers is a wall above anything so I'm not going to go on a rant about how easy it is to counter because I know that's not the point, but for a wall its pretty easy to break. Being weak to one of the most potent offensive typings in the game hurts it severely, and having jack shit to touch Fire types with is also a great hindrance to it, it's essentially fucked raw by a lot of common wallbreakers like Zard-Y, Syleon, Talonflame, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, and such. The pre-Mega Evo Prankster doesn't do much for it either, it's a really effective way of getting a priority Burn on some things that mught try to break through it, but the things that threaten Sableye don't really give much of a shit about Burn, Mega Diancie's immune, so are Zard and Talonflame (Clef too if Magic Guard), and Sylveon, Garde and Unaware Clef aren't hurt to any crippling extent; Burn helps against other physical breakers that could try and shatter it, but I can't see any things that truly threaten it being notably affected besides Azu. Prankster Will-O pre Mega is great, but once again overhyped. Magic Bounce I'll give it the benefit of being a nightmare against more passive teams which rely on hazards and status to wear teams down, but with similar teams generally packing Taunt and various Scald users it's not impossible to status and hold off from recovering the damage, it can be worn down and cracked. The rise of Toxic Spikes Dragalge give Mega Sparkly-squinters the shivers too, and Stallbreaker/Bulk Up Talonflame can put him in a coma. Essentially, I think it's overblown and fails to excel; it has become the face of stall, that is true, but I don't think that coupled with good but unspectacular qualities warrants it its current reputation. I'd head to dropping it down to A, but I'm gonna take baby steps and just suggest A+ for now since I'm sure there is a good reason it's getting all the hype it has besides any I stated previously.

Also Der Twist S rank might be too high for M-Sableye in a general sense but you're seriously underestimating its real presence in the meta if you're assuming A rank when well built M-Sableye balances builds have the one up on a variety of teams and its utility alone puts a hefty amount of pressure in deterring hazards along with making certain aspects of defensive and balanced cores a complete liability, think Ferrothorn and Hippowdon setting up rocks as an example. Also I'm gonna be perfectly honest M-Sableye is not really the face of stall anymore where as it's just a viable aspect of it. Plenty of stall builds choose various Pokemon as their prime mega of choice and M-Sableye is not always one of them, I guess you can say is somewhat of a factor of it going down in rank. Anything that is slow as hell can be worn down this is already a given but people make this grand assumption that M-Sableye destroys momentum when this only occurs with passive builds and passive players. If your M-Sableye is getting worn down to the point that it's all of a sudden some sort of liability to run, you must have done something wrong in the match, no offense to anyone who's gone through this as even myself can admit I've had this happen to me before due to my own playing. I get a drop down from S but anything below A+ is a bit ridiculous for something that can just be on a team and right there shut down so much stuff in the meta alone.

I, for one, don't think Gliscor rising to S rank is as far-fetched as some seem to think. There are very few Pokémon which are able to just beat teams as consistently as Gliscor while still retaining this much defensive utility. In many ways, it reminds me of Mew at its prime, or Clefable right now. The thing is, neither of these ever have been S rank, simply because they have pretty well-defined counters and aren't too difficult to take advantage of. And while Gliscor is, generally speaking, harder to take advantage of than these two, it still has the problems you would expect in a defensive Pokemon. A lot of the time, it's forced into situations where it has to predict how the opponent will react. For intance, you send it in against Ferrothorn. Will the opponent switch out to Keldeo? Will he switch out to HP Ice Landorus-I? Or will he stay in and Leech Seed? And yes, Knock Off is really spammable, but coming from an unstabbed uninvested base 95 Attack, you're still not preventing a bunch of Pokemon from forcing you out, and a few megas (YZard, Slowbro, Gyarados, Altaria especially pre-mega) don't really care either way (though I guess Facade hurts a bit if Gliscor carries it but that's imo a lesser option than Knock Off in most cases, mainly because you lose great utility). At times, Gliscor can be a bit of a momentum-killer.

That being said, that's really the only problem I have with Gliscor. Its ability to completely terrorise slower bulky teams as well counter some of the biggest threats in the metagame, making it very easy to slap on a large number of teams, defenitely makes it at least a candidate for S rank, so please don't dismiss this nomination.

Yeah I didn't ignore the nom and the only time I do ignore a nom in most cases is if it lacks detail or it's something absurd like kakuna to A+ lol. Gliscor in S rank seems a off though but I haven't put my finger on what to pinpoint directly and as whole in why I don't think it's S rank. I'll come back to this later.

 

[Celticpride]

Kyurem-B should move up for the reasons already stated, and that basically goes back to its ability to tear apart and pressure teams that are somewhat bulky but not too bulky. Fat balaced cores can't handle it blah blah blah. The thing that really puts it over the top is its ability to run two sets that basically run on completely different sets of checks defensively speaking. The Special set is handled relatively well but Clefable or Chansey, but they really can't switch-in freely on the Physical set only to get bopped by an Outrage / Iron Head. Conversely, the solid checks to the physical set really hate taking an invested Ice Beam or Earth Power on the switch. Additionally, it's not easy to tell which set it is off the bat if it just spams Ice Beam and Bolt Strike. Just a monster that should move up to A-.

Mega Aerodactyl should really drop down to B+. It's still very good, but the rest of the stuff in A- seems a lot better than it. I guess I see the A ranks as more primary building blocks and the B ranks more secondary building blocks to an extent, and Aerodactyl really isn't a top teambuilding block or threat. It is more something you add on when you've already built a core and find yourself in need of a revenge killer or a weapon against fast offensive teams. That's more of a B+ niche. The difference between it and Zam, Bee or Sceptile (aka other fast Megas) is also not that large at all and should be reflected by moving them closer together.

Mega Heracross should drop to B+ as well. It's just not the stall/balanced slayer it was in late XY. With all the other options for breaking down those teams now combined with teams adapting and playing around it better it should drop. It still does have notable strong niches, being able to heavily damage both of the new more defensive Megas (Slowbro and Sableye), as well as still having decent defensive typing and bulk. I'm not sure about all the way down to B however, as I feel that it's not worse than Terrakion right now. B+ is fine.

I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but could Victini move up? The Band set is really strong right now and is difficult to switch into. There's also some other good sets, like the Special Lure set. It has what I think is a pretty strong and overlooked niche as an offensive Metagross and Gardevoir check. It can be hard for bulky offensive teams to check those two in general, doing it in one slot is pretty great. Victini to B+.

On Mega Tyranitar, I think it has a case to move up. Sure Keldeo checks it pretty hard, but every decent team has a solid answer or two for Keldeo anyways so that's less of an issue in my opinion. I feel like people look at MTyranitar wrong kinda the way they look at Pinsir wrong. Everyone gets caught up in the set-up aspect of it and how easily they set-up and what they do at +1 or +2. Both are more than capable of doing serious work just by spamming STABs or coverage at common switch-ins. Pinsir does a great job weakening Lando-T and Rotom for teammates even at -1, and Tyranitar does a similar thing. This wearing down process can also allow them to facilitate their own sweeps as well. Ferro and Landorus-T can be worn down by the appropriate elemental punch, while most other things hate taking a STAB Stone Edge or Crunch to the face more than once or twice. You can even lure Keldeo with TPunch if you want to. A late game win con that dgaf Talon is also a plus. Move to B.

 

[GlassVeins]

Hey, I can't do calcs on my phone, but I was wondering what the consensus on fortress is. I personally feel that it is worthy of d rank, possibly as a megagross chech or counter. Plus, it seems like a decent defensive typing and stats. I dont really know tbh.

 

[SketchUp]

Hey, I can't do calcs on my phone, but I was wondering what the consensus on fortress is. I personally feel that it is worthy of d rank, possibly as a megagross chech or counter. Plus, it seems like a decent defensive typing and stats. I dont really know tbh.

Forretress definitely deserves D rank, but it is not because he checks Megagross (which it doesn't even do because Forretress can't do much back) but because of the lead Custap Berry set which is pretty similar of Skarmory's, but has a stronger suicide move, rapid spin and toxic spikes.

 

[TrollinSableye]

Kyurem-B should move up for the reasons already stated, and that basically goes back to its ability to tear apart and pressure teams that are somewhat bulky but not too bulky. Fat balaced cores can't handle it blah blah blah. The thing that really puts it over the top is its ability to run two sets that basically run on completely different sets of checks defensively speaking. The Special set is handled relatively well but Clefable or Chansey, but they really can't switch-in freely on the Physical set only to get bopped by an Outrage / Iron Head. Conversely, the solid checks to the physical set really hate taking an invested Ice Beam or Earth Power on the switch. Additionally, it's not easy to tell which set it is off the bat if it just spams Ice Beam and Bolt Strike. Just a monster that should move up to A-.

Mega Aerodactyl should really drop down to B+. It's still very good, but the rest of the stuff in A- seems a lot better than it. I guess I see the A ranks as more primary building blocks and the B ranks more secondary building blocks to an extent, and Aerodactyl really isn't a top teambuilding block or threat. It is more something you add on when you've already built a core and find yourself in need of a revenge killer or a weapon against fast offensive teams. That's more of a B+ niche. The difference between it and Zam, Bee or Sceptile (aka other fast Megas) is also not that large at all and should be reflected by moving them closer together.

Mega Heracross should drop to B+ as well. It's just not the stall/balanced slayer it was in late XY. With all the other options for breaking down those teams now combined with teams adapting and playing around it better it should drop. It still does have notable strong niches, being able to heavily damage both of the new more defensive Megas (Slowbro and Sableye), as well as still having decent defensive typing and bulk. I'm not sure about all the way down to B however, as I feel that it's not worse than Terrakion right now. B+ is fine.

I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but could Victini move up? The Band set is really strong right now and is difficult to switch into. There's also some other good sets, like the Special Lure set. It has what I think is a pretty strong and overlooked niche as an offensive Metagross and Gardevoir check. It can be hard for bulky offensive teams to check those two in general, doing it in one slot is pretty great. Victini to B+.

On Mega Tyranitar, I think it has a case to move up. Sure Keldeo checks it pretty hard, but every decent team has a solid answer or two for Keldeo anyways so that's less of an issue in my opinion. I feel like people look at MTyranitar wrong kinda the way they look at Pinsir wrong. Everyone gets caught up in the set-up aspect of it and how easily they set-up and what they do at +1 or +2. Both are more than capable of doing serious work just by spamming STABs or coverage at common switch-ins. Pinsir does a great job weakening Lando-T and Rotom for teammates even at -1, and Tyranitar does a similar thing. This wearing down process can also allow them to facilitate their own sweeps as well. Ferro and Landorus-T can be worn down by the appropriate elemental punch, while most other things hate taking a STAB Stone Edge or Crunch to the face more than once or twice. You can even lure Keldeo with TPunch if you want to. A late game win con that dgaf Talon is also a plus. Move to B.

Victini will most likely go up to B+ (Or even A-), as it has a multitude of items, moves, and sets that all work very well with it. Victini is even better since Talonflame has gone down in use and other than Keldeo, scarfers usually don't have something to stop it.
The only issue with Victini (IMO) is that Sucker Punch wrecks it so bad. And another thing to point out is that Heatran Checks Victini hard. I've seen people use Brick break (Or what ever) with Victini to stop Heatran, but it isn't worth it since Brick Break can't do anything else to Victini's other bad machups.

 

[GlassVeins]

Forretress definitely deserves D rank, but it is not because he checks Megagross (which it doesn't even do because Forretress can't do much back) but because of the lead Custap Berry set which is pretty similar of Skarmory's, but has a stronger suicide move, rapid spin and toxic spikes.

Really? Thanks for the information! I never really thought that self-destruction was all that great myself, but toxic spikes and rapid spin seems noteworthy on its own. I'd say D is probably where it belongs.

 

[Celticpride]

Victini will most likely go up to B+ (Or even A-), as it has a multitude of items, moves, and sets that all work very well with it. Victini is even better since Talonflame has gone down in use and other than Keldeo, scarfers usually don't have something to stop it.
The only issue with Victini (IMO) is that Sucker Punch wrecks it so bad. And another thing to point out is that Heatran Checks Victini hard. I've seen people use Brick break (Or what ever) with Victini to stop Heatran, but it isn't worth it since Brick Break can't do anything else to Victini's other bad machups.

Actually, Banded max attack Tini has a decent chance to 2HKO SDef Heatran with Bolt Strike, guaranteed after Rocks. Banded is probably the best set at the moment so Heatran isn't as much of an issue as you would think.

 

[Ox the Fox]

I can pull up a bunch of calcs with super effective hits as well. Lol come on guys beef up your argument a little more than just some obvious calcs and "I agree". It's not that difficult.

Well you wanted a bit less obvious calcs so I will give them to you :P. I will be referring to the max spa kube set as I feel it is the best in this current meta.

Calcs

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 152-179 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 177-211 (44.9 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 91-108 (30.2 - 35.8%) -- 95.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 244-289 (81 - 96%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 112-133 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

As you can clearly see kube is easily able to get off huge hits with just it's ice beam to ferrothorn and clefable. In ferrothorn's case, if you have any risidual damage, even 1 spike up you're able to 2hko it with ice beam. While in clefable's case the physical defensive set is just atraight up 2hkod while the spdf set has a chance to be 2hkod, and again any risidual damage will allow that to happen. Kube is also able to get off an ice beam on metagross and in case it hasn't mega'd yet outspeed it and kill it with earth power, or even if it has mega'd just 3hko it with ice beam. Finally mega scizor takes a hefty chunk from earth power, being constantly forced to roost.

 

[TrollinSableye]

Actually, Banded max attack Tini has a decent chance to 2HKO SDef Heatran with Bolt Strike, guaranteed after Rocks. Banded is probably the best set at the moment so Heatran isn't as much of an issue as you would think.

Well, I can't really argue with that, except for the fact that Scarfed Victini is also used quite a bit and Bolt Strike is pretty easy to predict from victini. But the matchup imo depends on the set that you run on Victini overall.

 

[Froggyboy]

Crazy but here you go.

to A+ Rank:
Mega Venusaur is already a pretty great mon in the current meta, and it use to be S Rank for a bit back in early XY iirc, but now there is new mega hype and a few new megas screwed it over, like Metagross and Gallade. But, I still think Vensaur is A+ since it is so bulky, has a good typing combined with its ability, and it is pretty underprepared for. It checks a lot of things, like Lopunny, Altaria, Azumarill, Thundurus, Keldeo(HP Flying is so rare now), Clefable, Manectric, Gyarados, etc. It's offensive stats are decent enough for a wall too, allowing it to not be set-up fodder, and it has good coverage moves too with HP Fire/Ice, Earthquake, and Knock Off. Overall, I feel Venusaur is a very underrated threat in the current meta and should move up.

 

[TrollinSableye]

Crazy but here you go.

to A+ Rank:
Mega Venusaur is already a pretty great mon in the current meta, and it use to be S Rank for a bit back in early XY iirc, but now there is new mega hype and a few new megas screwed it over, like Metagross and Gallade. But, I still think Vensaur is A+ since it is so bulky, has a good typing combined with its ability, and it is pretty underprepared for. It checks a lot of things, like Lopunny, Altaria, Azumarill, Thundurus, Keldeo(HP Flying is so rare now), Clefable, Manectric, Gyarados, etc. It's offensive stats are decent enough for a wall too, allowing it to not be set-up fodder, and it has good coverage moves too with HP Fire/Ice, Earthquake, and Knock Off. Overall, I feel Venusaur is a very underrated threat in the current meta and should move up.

Mega Venasaur is good, except for the fact that Mega Sableye Walls the living hell out of MVena. It stops Leech seed to be set up, Can taunt to stop Synthesis, and CM walls most of MVenasaurs offencive capabilities. And if MVena runs EQ, Will O' shuts that down too.

 

[Caesious]

Crazy but here you go.

to A+ Rank:
Mega Venusaur is already a pretty great mon in the current meta, and it use to be S Rank for a bit back in early XY iirc, but now there is new mega hype and a few new megas screwed it over, like Metagross and Gallade. But, I still think Vensaur is A+ since it is so bulky, has a good typing combined with its ability, and it is pretty underprepared for. It checks a lot of things, like Lopunny, Altaria, Azumarill, Thundurus, Keldeo(HP Flying is so rare now), Clefable, Manectric, Gyarados, etc. It's offensive stats are decent enough for a wall too, allowing it to not be set-up fodder, and it has good coverage moves too with HP Fire/Ice, Earthquake, and Knock Off. Overall, I feel Venusaur is a very underrated threat in the current meta and should move up.

If Mega Metagross gets the banhammer, then I could see this happening (though I do not feel it is good enough because it isn't as hard to deal with as mons in A+ are with or without Megagross). However, seeing as Mega Metagross currently has such a strong presence in the meta, and there are a multitude of pokemon (like Mega Sableye, Tran if HP Fire, Ferro/Sciz if HP Ground/EQ) that take care of it easily, Mega Venusaur seems to be fine in A rank as it is now.

 

[bludz]

I don't think one mon walling another is enough reason to keep it from moving up a rank generally. Especially since Mega Venusaur is a tank and not a sweeper. IMO the issue is more that M-Venu isn't providing the user with a great win condition: it doesn't sweep and while it tanks a lot of hits, it's susceptible to status. If you look at all the mons in A+ they either provide a decently strong natural or set-up win con or are better at walling/utility, like Gliscor and Heatran.

It's still a good pokemon and that's why it's A rank, but I don't agree that it should move up.

Also, I'm rather skeptical of this Mega Ttar to B rank talk. I mean good points have been made but let's be real: it's outclassed by the non mega form for every set except for DD since Ttar's utility is generally item depedent (scarf, band, smooth rock). The DD set is nice and all but in practice it suffers from a huge number of common weaknesses that offset its great bulk. In fact, every form of common priority outside of Talonflame's Brave Bird smacks it for super effective damage. It is fat enough that a Bullet Punch or Aqua Jet won't generally knock it out, but it often has to tank a hit first to even set up a Dragon Dance because it's not fast to begin with. TBH I definitely do fear Mega Sharpedo more, not sure about Houndoom. Also is it really better than Mega Garchomp? To be honest I think it is fine where it is.

 

[Reverb]

Although I think you have an interesting point, I'm having difficulty seeing how Emboar is viable. Obviously the Fighting STAB is a leg up on Victini, but as you said before, it has crippling speed and poor longevity.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.

This seems in line with your arguments, as Emboar is fundamentally outclassed by Victini, and its crippling speed and longevity means it will have trouble doing its job. Unless you offer more detailed examples of how Emboar can be utilized, I don't see why it should move up in the rankings.

 

[quagback2qc]

As far as Mega Venu to A+ goes, I have to disagree. While it makes a great wall that can deal a few hits as well, it really can't cripple many teams as it used to in XY. Magic Bounce users are very common in the tier, preventing any Leech Seeds or Sleep Powders. Megagross, which is super common, is a great offensive check to it. HP Fire variants obviously suffer against Heatran, so using HP Fire for megagross is kind of redundant. Plus, sand offense is rising in usage, further disabling it from recovering much. It really has lost viability in ORAS, and variants that lack HP Fire get walled to hell and back by Chestnaught and Ferrothorn.

 

[Froggyboy]

As far as Mega Venu to A+ goes, I have to disagree. While it makes a great wall that can deal a few hits as well, it really can't cripple many teams as it used to in XY. Magic Bounce users are very common in the tier, preventing any Leech Seeds or Sleep Powders. Megagross, which is super common, is a great offensive check to it. HP Fire variants obviously suffer against Heatran, so using HP Fire for megagross is kind of redundant. Plus, sand offense is rising in usage, further disabling it from recovering much. It really has lost viability in ORAS, and variants that lack HP Fire get walled to hell and back by Chestnaught and Ferrothorn.

There are only two common Magic Bounce users in the tier, one of which is actually countered by Venusaur, I'll give you Mega Sableye though. Also it is immune to Sleep Powder and Leech Seed, allowing it not be screwed over by Magic Bounce. And it can actually take on Megagross 1v1 or if Gross switches in on it, being able to live a Zen Headbutt and retaliate with Leech Seeds or Sleep Powders, then proceed to stall it out. And I probably should have mentioned this in my original post, but most Venusaurs carry Sludge Bomb, allowing it to take on other bulky grass types and Lati@s. Yes, it has lost viability in ORAS, but I still feel it is solid enough to justify A+ rank.

 

[AM]

M-Venu in A+ is unrealistic when you take into account it's pressured by a lot in the tier. M-Metagross, M-Gallade, M-Gardevoir, Latis, Talonflame, the list goes on. These aren't exactly obscure things either and in a Scald infested metagame it sucks that M-Venusaur is generally 1 of 2 water switch ins on teams and when burned, which happens a lot btw since it's generally a check to Keldeo, it just hinders it tremendously to the point that you lose a lot of momentum by trying to recover HP back. What also blows is that this recovery is on a timer generally because you have 8 synthesis to use and general balance builds especially stall can just stall it out and use resists to double switch out of it into something that threatens it. It's hard to think that M-Venusaur boasts the same amount of offensive and defensive utility all in one package such as M-Altaria who is in A+ and doesn't come close to sporting the offensive prowess of M-Diancie, Gengar, and Charizard-X, threats that are more or less harder to build around for any given day of the week unlike M-Venusaur who requires general checks and pressure to successfully bring it down.

 

[Froggyboy]

Alright, I can see the argument against it, and I now realize it is fine where its at. Maybe I have a bias against Venusaur since it was my first favorite Pokemon but whatever. Retracting my nom.

 

[astroboy]

so this might be a bit of a controversial decision, buuut
I'd like to nominate Meloetta to rise back to D-rank

While Meloetta certainly isn't the best mon by any means, I think it does present some unique niche in the metagame. Meloetta is able to check many common special attackers when equipped with an assault vest, and is usually able to 2hko back due to its good base 128 special attack and great coverage. Meloetta is most suited to semi-stall, as it handles special wallbreakers very well, most of which that other special walls like Chansey would have problems with. Some of the more noticable mons that Meloetta can check are Keldeo, Landorus-I without knock off, Thundurus, Lati@s,and Magnezone. It's also a very solid counter to Sceptile, Raikou, Starmie, Thundurus, and Gengar, as they best they can do is 4hko (5hko in Scep's case). Here's some calcs to show what Meloetta can do Vs. these mons!

calcs

Raikou:
252+ SpA Meloetta Psyshock vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 180-213 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 109-129 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Gengar:
252+ SpA Meloetta Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 432-510 (166.7 - 196.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 109-129 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Keldeo:
252+ SpA Meloetta Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 312-368 (96.5 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Meloetta: 172-204 (42.6 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO

Landorus-I: (beats Melo if it has knock off)
252+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 193-228 (60.5 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO OR 252+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 214-253 (67 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Meloetta: 273-322 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 122-146 (30.2 - 36.2%) -- 50.9% chance to 3HKO

Thundurus:
252+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 193-228 (64.5 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 99-118 (24.5 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

Latios:
252+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 148-175 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 148-175 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 75-90 (18.6 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO

Latias:
252+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 127-151 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 125-148 (31 - 36.7%) -- 65.9% chance to 3HKO
-- possible 6HKO

Magnezone:
252+ SpA Meloetta Focus Blast vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 312-368 (96.2 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 117-138 (29 - 34.2%) -- 2.8% chance to 3HKO


Sceptile:
252+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sceptile: 183-216 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 81-96 (20 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Starmie:
252+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 184-217 (70.2 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Meloetta: 105-125 (26 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

While yes, Meloetta does have pretty crappy physical defense, speed, and can sometimes be deadweight against other top tier threats, like metagross, bisharp, sableye, or mega-scizor, I think it does have a good niche in this meta, and I think it's reasonable for now to put it in D. I mean, I think it's safe to say it's atleast on the level of gimmicky things like Cofag or Exploud.
It also has u-turn, which lets it pick up momentum or switch out from a threat it can't handle while also getting chip damage on the opponent. Shadow ball is another option, as it lets it hit Latis and Mega Garde harder.
Here's the set!

Meloetta @ Assault Vest
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psyshock
- Hyper Voice
- Focus Blast
- U-turn/Shadow Ball

Have a good day!

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Most has been said about Gliscor to S rank but a few things. What i'd like to mention is that the SD set was rather underused in XY, mostly because Spdef set and Subtect was all it needed.
However, Mega sableye is here and it walls Spdef and Subtect to death. When I heard about Mega sableye I basically went through a mental list seeing what's going to fall in usage. But Gliscors SD set walls Mega Sableye to death and ruins stall. Basically, Gliscor has three sets who together can beat any pokemon.

S rank

 

[Halcyon.]

I'll write more about this, but I don't support Gliscor for S rank. It is a Pokemon that has way too much pressure put on it, and everything that it checks has a way to beat it. Landorus has HP Ice. Gengar has Icy Wind (as seen in SPL). Lopunny / Metagross have Ice Punch. You can't switch into Sableye immediately for fear of Knock Off or WoW catching you before you've been Toxic'd. A lot of people put it on a team and expect it to just work at countering all these things, but it just doesn't work that way. Seems like a pretty similar Pokemon to XY Rotom-W, which had the same problem. The only difference being better bulk and having offensive presence, but Rotom-W was like B+ in XY so I think that even though Gliscor is a better Pokemon, its flaws should be enough to keep it out of S rank. Great mon? Yes. But not S rank, imo.

 

[Isa Simple]

Although I think you have an interesting point, I'm having difficulty seeing how Emboar is viable. Obviously the Fighting STAB is a leg up on Victini, but as you said before, it has crippling speed and poor longevity.

This seems in line with your arguments, as Emboar is fundamentally outclassed by Victini, and its crippling speed and longevity means it will have trouble doing its job. Unless you offer more detailed examples of how Emboar can be utilized, I don't see why it should move up in the rankings.

The thing is, Emboar really isn't that outclassed by Victini.
Comparing Band sets the difference in damage out put is almost non existent.

252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 306-360 (75.7 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 301-355 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 145-171 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- 92.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

In fact Emboar is doing more (I know 2% doesn't make a difference 99% of the time but it shows Emboar's damage certainly isn't outclassed).
Their Grass Knot's do exactly the same btw.

However Victini has more immediate speed and bulk, after one V-Create it becomes both slower and flimsier. Comparing Scarf sets Emboar out paces after a V-Create hence making a sweep more possible.

So then it is just a comparison of simple advantages of typing and move pools.
Is STAB Fighting or Psychic better?
Are weaknesses to Flying and Psychic worse than Rock, Ghost and Dark?
Are Psychic, Fighting and Fairy resists that much better than Bug and Dark resists?
Is U-Turn and better Special coverage better than a strong Sucker Punch, Head Smash and SR?
Is Recoil that much worse than SR weakness?

Victini really doesn't heavily outclass Emboar. Emboar is an extremely potent Pokemon with the right support and deserves out of D.

 

[Reverb]

The thing is, Emboar really isn't that outclassed by Victini.
Comparing Band sets the difference in damage out put is almost non existent.

252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 306-360 (75.7 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 301-355 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 145-171 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- 92.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

In fact Emboar is doing more (I know 2% doesn't make a difference 99% of the time but it shows Emboar's damage certainly isn't outclassed).
Their Grass Knot's do exactly the same btw.

However Victini has more immediate speed and bulk, after one V-Create it becomes both slower and flimsier. Comparing Scarf sets Emboar out paces after a V-Create hence making a sweep more possible.

So then it is just a comparison of simple advantages of typing and move pools.
Is STAB Fighting or Psychic better?
Are weaknesses to Flying and Psychic worse than Rock, Ghost and Dark?
Are Psychic, Fighting and Fairy resists that much better than Bug and Dark resists?
Is U-Turn and better Special coverage better than a strong Sucker Punch, Head Smash and SR?
Is Recoil that much worse than SR weakness?

Victini really doesn't heavily outclass Emboar. Emboar is an extremely potent Pokemon with the right support and deserves out of D.

You're using non-Adamant Victini in your calcs. Keep in mind that non-Adamant Victini's V-Create is 10% stronger, and it will still outspeed Emboar (most people run +Atk CB Victini anyway). Also, Emboar takes massive recoil damage, whereas Victini does not.

 

[Isa Simple]

You're using non-Adamant Victini in your calcs. Keep in mind that non-Adamant Victini's V-Create is 10% stronger, and it will still outspeed Emboar (most people run +Atk CB Victini anyway). Also, Emboar takes massive recoil damage, whereas Victini does not.

I seem to recall Choice Band Victini running Jolly anyway because you could gain more from out speeding or tying with other base 100s than hitting 10% harder but either way the difference isn't that huge.

I guess my main argument is that there are clearly things that Emboar has over Victini, and clearly things the Victini has over Emboar.
But are the things Victini has over Emboar really that relevant and the things Emboar has over Victini that irrelevant that Emboar would wind up in D rank?
I honestly don't think so and even C could be underselling in my eyes but regardless at this stage I reckon we just need to get it out of D.