Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[Clone]

AM What was the reasoning for Garchomp not moving up last time? As it stands now its one of, if not the best mon in A rn for a multitude of reasons, one of which is is being one of the best Metagross checks in the tier while still providing additional utility to a team in the form of SR and causing physical attackers to kill themselves (quite literally). Ill make a more in depth post on why I feel it deserves A+ later, but Im just curious as to why it didnt move up last time.

 

[Alfalfa]

What is the general consensus for Mega Latias? Is it fine where it is at at B+, or is its passiveness and its ability to be taken advantage of by Dark types warrant it another drop? I cannot imagine something so dependent on team matchup to do anything except sit there being as high as B+, but I could be wrong.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Some stuff I think needs a mention:

Chansey: B+ --> A-/A: Chansey is a complete menace on stall. Without a physical fighting move, I fail to think of something that OHKOs it. It walls most specially offensive stuff, and has an amazing movepool. It can cleric, T-Wave, set rocks (plz don't tho, it has better things to do) and, while passive af, can stop setup sweepers from using it as taunt bait with seismic toss. It can function decently post knock off too, and it's immunity to ghost is fabulous. It's far more viable than it's B+ stally counterparts, such as Amoonguss.

Skarm also needs to go up to A- IMO, it beats the prominent MMeta with counter, is a hella annoying physical wall, and with custap's release has it's HO niche back. While not as undersold as Chansey by it being B+ (My brain refuses to even accept that rank as real), it is definately on the level as stuff such as Politoed and other A-'s.

I'm not going to push with my B+'s to A-'s yet, but will back any movement for Kyu-B's rise. I also back Victini for B+ (I'm not trying to empty it lol, I just think it seems to be in 2, with stuff that's amazing like Chansey, while more mediocre stuff like Breloom and MBee is far below it in usefulness, but in the same rank).

In bullet points:

Chansey + Skarmory for A-
Supporting Victini for B+

I honestly disagree with chansey and skarmory moving up. They are in no way bad but my problem with both of these is how badly they kill momentum and both are set up fodder for a lot of dangerous things. Chansey's reliance on eviolite and inability to run an attacking move other then seismic toss is pretty annoying as it can't deter spikes users or set up sweepers from setting up all over it. It does wall gengar but what exactly can chansey even do back? And skarm I disagree with for as it walls a good portion of the meta but against most of the things it walls the only thing it is able to do to them is set up hazards while they can just pressure it.

 

[procrastinat]

Chansey actually loses to Gar if it has Taunt, besides that Chansey really only belongs on stall, otherwise it's just bait for number of extremely dangerous pokemon like Keldeo, Megagross, SD Gliscor, Mega Gyarados running Taunt, and Landorus using either Knock Off or Calm Mind, and is simply Knock Off and Taunt bait in general. Chansey is a great pokemon when used in the correct way, but there are many great pokemon that are capable beating it. Keep Chansey in B+.

Skarm is the one I'm not sure of yet. Going on it's defensive ability it's fine in B+, being similar to chansey in that many top-tier pokemon can use it as set up bait. But another point raised was Skarm's suicide lead set, given new life thanks to Custap's release. Forretress is being considered for D rank because of it's very similar set. What Skarm has over Forretress is a higher speed tier and access to Taunt, which prevents any hazards from going up in the first place. Overall, I think Skarm needs more discussion and testing before any rank changing should be considered.

 

[AM]

AM What was the reasoning for Garchomp not moving up last time? As it stands now its one of, if not the best mon in A rn for a multitude of reasons, one of which is is being one of the best Metagross checks in the tier while still providing additional utility to a team in the form of SR and causing physical attackers to kill themselves (quite literally). Ill make a more in depth post on why I feel it deserves A+ later, but Im just curious as to why it didnt move up last time.

That was actually a while ago before Rocky Chomp gained any sort of relevancy. Different period of the metagame, different relevant sets basically. Whether or not it should go to A+ I'm still gauging because I don't feel its effectiveness surpasses Hippowdon which is considered one of the best glues on Balance and maintains a pretty high rate of consistency I feel. Being x4 weak to Ice sort of blows when the metagame is prepping for Lando and Gliscor and by virtue of this point is preparing for Garchomp. Obviously the utility that Garchomp provides is outstanding enough on its Rocky Helmet set but whether or not it surpasses the amount of utility and efficiency to say, Gliscor is a different story. I'm more inclined to believe it's at A but I don't have a strong opinion on it in comparison to the points about Landorus I previously made to various individuals.

 

[Flarowak]

I agree with Tornadus-T moving up. He is actually very good right now. Like AM said he isn't overcentralizing, but he is most defintely really great in this meta and very popular as well. I'm looking at trying out a rain just to try out him and swampert. He has amazing speed, good attacks and a good enough move pool to be able to make him a bit unpredictable. I think A is a solid placement for Tornadus-T.

 

[tigers jaw]

Mega Latias is actually pretty good, even if it's a little matchup dependent, we all know what it's like when the matchup's in its favour. I was pairing it with lures for Taunt Heatran and Bisharp to ease the fat Steel+Dark problem (basically that Natural Gift Apicot+Drain Punch Jirachi), and I was impressed with Latias' performance.

All it really needs is some crafty team building on semistall and balance to be effective, I reckon it should stay where it is.

 

[Srn]

That was actually a while ago before Rocky Chomp gained any sort of relevancy. Different period of the metagame, different relevant sets basically. Whether or not it should go to A+ I'm still gauging because I don't feel its effectiveness surpasses Hippowdon which is considered one of the best glues on Balance and maintains a pretty high rate of consistency I feel. Being x4 weak to Ice sort of blows when the metagame is prepping for Lando and Gliscor and by virtue of this point is preparing for Garchomp. Obviously the utility that Garchomp provides is outstanding enough on its Rocky Helmet set but whether or not it surpasses the amount of utility and efficiency to say, Gliscor is a different story. I'm more inclined to believe it's at A but I don't have a strong opinion on it in comparison to the points about Landorus I previously made to various individuals.

Nah chomp should definitely go to A+, mainly because of its invaluable utility to offense teams.

Considering the relevancy of mega sableye on stall teams, offense more or less has to choose between lum SD chomp or Sr lando to actually set rocks vs stall. Being one of the two mons in the tier to do this well is huge (you could say eplate SR lando-t does this tho)

Now that mmeta is staying, chomp is one of the few checks offense has to it, which is very valuable, considering all offense can really do about it is basically limited to lando-t/talon/chomp/mega man/mgyara/exca/mzor. You pretty much NEED one of these one every offense or mmeta is gonna be tearing you a new one.
(scarf tar doesnt' cut it:
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 188-224 (62.4 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 390-462 (114.3 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

In short, settin rocks vs msableye and checking mmeta while in general softening up physical walls like rotom-w/lando-t/etc is just such a huge boon to offense, it definitely deserves A+

 

[Thatwackycruton]

I know I might get a significant amount of hate for this, But I belive that Keldeo should be moved from S to A+. Keldeo, of course, is not a bad pokemon, but the prevelance of Checks talonflame, Azumarril, Mega Diancie and Sylveon can make Its job especially hard. Furthermore, many people will find that less powerful, bulkier CM sweepers (Clefable, CroBro etc.) can do the job more reliability. If we talk about the specs set, Keldeo can be locked into an inaccurate hydro pump or a Semi-widely resisted secret sword. Finally, almost all Mega-Venusaur Varients can Counter this thing without breaking a Sweat. While I do agree that Keldeo is a good pokemon, it's base 108 Speed leaves it checked by most Varients of the Lati twins, raikou, Thunderus, mega manectric, and Alakazam and it's Mega Form. So, while Keldeo Is a great pokemon, I don't think is quite deserving of S rank. So, I still stand my my claim. Keldeo from S to A+ rank.

. I actually disagree quite a bit with this. Yeah, Talonflame is a huge bane for Keldeo, but Talonflame is a huge bane for Metagross, Sableye, even stuff in Uber like Genesect and Aegislash, so the fact the Talonflame checks Keldeo isn't a big deal, especially when you account for the fact that SubCM Keldeo may be behind a sub.
What is so good about Keldeo is it's ability to muscle past it's usual checks and counters such as Lati@s, Tentacruel, Azumarill, Gyarados with burns. It's SubCM set is also centralising to the point where defensive Starmie runs Psyshock>Reflect type, as well as seeing a rise in the usage of Slowbro, Celebi etc.

Does everyone remember Hydreigon for the BW/B2W2 days? If not, it was supposed to be uncounterable. However, It wasn't considered an excessively powerful pokemon for the same reason that I say that Keldeo does not deserve S rank. They both have a rather large amount of checks. I am honestly sorry that I still stand by what I say. Keldeo is, honestly, and easy pokemon to check. Countering it is difficult, which is why I think it should be A+ and not something like C rank. But the fact that it can be checked by a fairly large portion of the metagame makes it undeserving of S rank. Finally, I'm going to take a look at the description of S rank. Reserved for pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These pokemon are able to perform veriety of roles very effectively, or can do just one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws patched up by numerous positive traits. These pokemon define the metagame. While I do agree that Keldeo can perform a verity of roles effectively, I don't believe a pokemon with numerous checks and and four moderately common weaknesses is "involving low risk involved". Finally, Keldeo is somewhat lacking in coverage, having weak coverage moves like hidden power and icy wind. So, I still say that Keldeo should be A+ rank instead of S.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Mega Latias is actually pretty good, even if it's a little matchup dependent, we all know what it's like when the matchup's in its favour. I was pairing it with lures for Taunt Heatran and Bisharp to ease the fat Steel+Dark problem (basically that Natural Gift Apicot+Drain Punch Jirachi), and I was impressed with Latias' performance.

All it really needs is some crafty team building on semistall and balance to be effective, I reckon it should stay where it is.

The problem with Mega Latias is just that it does have that huge opportunity cost of being a mega... Also, offensive sets can be even more powerful just using life orb (or Latios of course) and defensive sets will miss that leftovers passive recovery... Also, the increase in bulk isn't as huge as it should, to be really noticeable IMO...

 

[Poek]

The problem with Mega Latias is just that it does have that huge opportunity cost of being a mega... Also, offensive sets can be even more powerful just using life orb (or Latios of course) and defensive sets will miss that leftovers passive recovery... Also, the increase in bulk isn't as huge as it should, to be really noticeable IMO...

How isn't it noticeable? The thing lives adamant life orb mamoswine's icicle crash, heck, it even lives adamant max atk hoopa-unbound's hyperspace fury. And, unlike her brother Latios, Mega Latias isn't outclassed by its regular form. Unless you have a dark type, the CM set is unbreakable, and is capable of setting up on a huge portion on the meta. Yes, it's match-up reliant, but that's why its in B+. Apart from that, Mega Latias has a reflect type defog set which allows some balanced/stall builds to counter huge threats such as Keldeo, Landorus, Thundurus, Mega Venusaur, etc. And when I say counter, its actually counter, because any of the sets they might run cant kill her. Do you know how hard it is nowadays to find a Landorus counter with all the possible coverage it could have? It even has reflect type to escape from pursuit, not even scarf-tar damages it with crunch, as it does about 60%, you can reflect type back, roost on it and switch out. This thing is fat af.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I don't know, I've always thought that Mega Latias's excellent bulk was enough to set itself apart as a Mega. It's not quite like Mega Latios, who is only about as bulky overall as normal Latias while being a little weaker than LO Latios, giving it few standout characteristics that make it an attractive Mega choice. Unless of course, as I've said before, you find yourself with no Mega and want a somewhat buffed Latios (which doesn't really happen all that often). By contrast, Mega Latias's 80/120/150 defenses actually stand out a lot and give it an edge not only over its normal form, but over competing Megas as well. I've actually found the standard offensive Defog Latias with the Latiasite > Life Orb to be a pretty cool glue on bulky offense teams since it brings great bulk to the table and still has respectable power as well. Plus, with just 8 HP EVs, Mega Latias is never 2HKOed by 4 Atk Landorus's Knock Off, which makes it a fantastic answer to one of the most threatening offensive Pokemon in the metagame right now.

Not sure if it should stay where it is or fall, but I do think that Mega Latias doesn't have quite that bad of a Mega opportunity cost thanks to its standout bulk, at least not in the same league as Mega Latios.

 

[Magcargo]

Latias down to A- or lower
Latias isn't very great in the current metagame. It loses to a majority of the pokemon in S and A rank (Diance, Clefable, Mega Meta, Mega Altaria, Ferrothorn, etc.) and what it does beat is often paired up with a Pursuit user such as Bisharp, Scizor, or Tyranitar. It suffers from a huge amount of 4MSS (wants to run Healing wish, roost, Psyshock, Surf, HP Fire, defog, Draco Meteor on the same set but can't) and its lack of power prevents it from being able to defend itself from pursuit users and bulky pokemon such as chansey, jirachi, and Klefki.

Tyranitar to A+
Tyranitar suffers from a numerous amount of issues in the OU metagame. Despite this, I still feel it should go back up to A+ rank, primarily due to its Scarf set. Choice Scarf Tyranitar is probably the best Pursuit user in the tier currently because of its high Speed, Bulk, and Power, allowing it to trap Pokemon such as Latios, Latias, and Gengar reliably, while also creating a 50/50 scenario with celebi. Its ability to pursuit trap these mons is invaluable support for two of the best mons in the tier: Landorus and Keldeo. It also has several other notable perks such as being somewhat versatile and providing sand support for drill, but its utility as a Pursuit trapper is by far its most notable quality.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

Hey can I get some reasons why Lopunny dropped from S-rank? This thing is an offense-destroying monster and it has sets that can take out other playstyles as well.

 

[bludz]

Scarfed Raptor
Here's the reasoning trc gave when it originally dropped. I do think PuP has become a more popular 4th slot than Ice Punch though, but I never felt too strongly about it either way, so I'm not going to argue just leaving the quote here.

Most people seem to be in agreement that in the post-Greninja meta Mega Lopunny is far less dominant, and that it is largely more balance focused, the playstyle that has the best matchup against Mega Lopunny. Offensive teams are still quite troubled by Adamant Mega Lopunny, due to not often packing many Pokemon that could switch in and deal with it, while stall teams can have a tough time against Mega Lopunny's more specialized sets, although Mega Lopunny's main Fake Out / High Jump Kick / Return / Ice Punch set isn't particularly troubling to well built stall teams, and that is the most common set in the meta. Slowbro, Mega Slowbro, Celebi, Hippowdon, Mew, and support sets of Mega Altaria are all commonly found on balanced teams, and deal with Mega Lopunny well, generally not making it too much of an issue. The playstyle with the hardest matchup still has common ways to get around Mega Lopunny, including Scarf Landorus-T, Talonflame, Azumarill, Thundurus, Klekfi, all Pokemon that can either outspeed it and kill it, cripple it, or tank a hit in a pinch and OHKO back. Overall though, Mega Lopunny is a very threatening Pokemon, but it definitely isn't as dominant as the other Pokemon in S, such as Mega Metagross and Mega Sableye.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

Hey can I get some reasons why Lopunny dropped from S-rank? This thing is an offense-destroying monster and it has sets that can take out other playstyles as well.

It may be because most mons invested in defense can easily take it's hits, along with the fact that it can easily be revenge killed by breloom, Conkeldurr, MegaPinsir,and talonflame. Furthermore, it is extremely easily stopped by stall mons such as slowbro and MegaVenu. Also, While it has an attack stat that is quite high, it's attacks are unboosted, unlike other fast physical attackers like weavile. I hope I spread at least some light in the subject.

 

[pika pal]

It may be because most mons invested in defense can easily take it's hits, along with the fact that it can easily be revenge killed by breloom, Conkeldurr, MegaPinsir,and talonflame. Furthermore, it is extremely easily stopped by stall mons such as slowbro and MegaVenu. Also, While it has an attack stat that is quite high, it's attacks are unboosted, unlike other fast physical attackers like weavile. I hope I spread at least some light in the subject.

Lopunny's power, while only okay, is bolstered by its main STABs having perfect neutral coverage as well as very high base power.

 

[Roxachronic]

It may be because most mons invested in defense can easily take it's hits, along with the fact that it can easily be revenge killed by breloom, Conkeldurr, MegaPinsir,and talonflame. Furthermore, it is extremely easily stopped by stall mons such as slowbro and MegaVenu. Also, While it has an attack stat that is quite high, it's attacks are unboosted, unlike other fast physical attackers like weavile. I hope I spread at least some light in the subject.

Not agreeing with this, the power of M-Lopunny(at least regarding its main STAB) is actually more powerful than Megagross Meteor Mash(barely,but still is a fact), because you need to take into account that unlike Weavile ,M-Lopunny has an access to a 130BP move,so I don't get why people treat is as it does not do enough damage, of course it lacks coverage options to get past monst like M-Slowbro easily(since he resists its main STAB and unlike Megagross who can approach from the special side with GK to overcome this), and the fact that is weak to the main RKiller is a problem against Offense, but as far as pure damage goes M-Lopunny is not lacking.

 

[MrAldo]

M-Lopunny is one of those mons that would be extremely good if the metagame took a competely route of what it is right now. M-Lopunny is one of the pokes that is pretty tricky to check due to having unresisted coverage thanks to scrappy with normal+fighting but its power is just not enough to get past many of the common balanced builds. It cant get past combos like hippowdon+clef or gliscor+m-altaria at all, the rise of tanky chomp punishing its contact moves with rough skin+rocky helmet. A metagame where balance is the style of preference M-Lopunny cant be paired with mons like mega metagross that can work against all playstyles due to its raw power and outrageous bulk or Keldeo thanks to its sub calm mind set that shines against pretty much any playstyle as well.

Not taking into account that it can get revenge killed by common mons like talonflame, scarf lando-T on offense or even breloom so offense at the very least has tools to play around it (I mean, offense had to, otherwise it could just lose to this). The Power Up Punch boost is simply not enough to get past most well built balanced teams.

All in all, a really good mon being held back by metagame trends and the meta being unkind to it. A+ is pretty fine for it thanks to its ability of nailing offense but thats pretty much the case.

 

[Karxrida]

I agree with Chansey staying as is, but I honestly can see Skarmory moving up. While they're obviously not comparable bar being Walls, Skarmory is able to work on more team archetypes thanks to its suicide lead set, not being as passive between Brave Bird and Counter letting it do something to what it walls, and providing more utility between Whirlwind and Spikes.

Mega Lopunny is fine where it is. Bulkier teams can handle it since it can struggle to KO some fatter targets it can't hit for super effective damage, while Offense has a decent amount of revenge killers and checks that can abuse it being greedy with Fake Out.

 

[Alfalfa]

Latias down to A- or lower
Latias isn't very great in the current metagame. It loses to a majority of the pokemon in S and A rank (Diance, Clefable, Mega Meta, Mega Altaria, Ferrothorn, etc.) and what it does beat is often paired up with a Pursuit user such as Bisharp, Scizor, or Tyranitar. It suffers from a huge amount of 4MSS (wants to run Healing wish, roost, Psyshock, Surf, HP Fire, defog, Draco Meteor on the same set but can't) and its lack of power prevents it from being able to defend itself from pursuit users and bulky pokemon such as chansey, jirachi, and Klefki.

Tyranitar to A+
Tyranitar suffers from a numerous amount of issues in the OU metagame. Despite this, I still feel it should go back up to A+ rank, primarily due to its Scarf set. Choice Scarf Tyranitar is probably the best Pursuit user in the tier currently because of its high Speed, Bulk, and Power, allowing it to trap Pokemon such as Latios, Latias, and Gengar reliably, while also creating a 50/50 scenario with celebi. Its ability to pursuit trap these mons is invaluable support for two of the best mons in the tier: Landorus and Keldeo. It also has several other notable perks such as being somewhat versatile and providing sand support for drill, but its utility as a Pursuit trapper is by far its most notable quality.

I second both of Magcargo's nominations. I really feel that Latias is simply slapped onto teams because people can and want its support, but its offensive capabilities are usually handicapped due to being limited to four moveslots, and its defensive capabilities are usually overshadowed by opposing team support through Pursuit to get past Latias for Pokemon it checks.

As Magcargo said, Tyranitar is flawed, but I can see it on par with Zard X, Azumarill, and Heatran. Its capabilities as a Pursuit trapper are highly appreciated right now with Pokemon like Landorus and Keldeo wanting the Latis removed, and the prevalence of Gengar in the metagame and how difficult it is for balanced teams to handle it. It does need some support to handle certain Pokemon like Keldeo, Bisharp, etc., but every Pokemon needs some form of support, so I do not think Tyranitar is any different.

 

[Costi]

A lot of things to discuss, wonderful

First of all i agree and i'll glad to see a Garchomp rise. Despite the x4 weakness and how common lando and gliscor are atm, garchomp can do his job extremely well. Fat "rocky" Chomp is really good now, it can set rocks whenever it needs to and can let suicide the most threatening phisical attacker of the meta. With Mmetagross in the meta, garchomp is a very valuable mon to use as a reliable check to it (meteor mash is 3hko suicide). Garchomp still do not die to Mlopunny ice punch, it punishes fake out and kill with EQ. It can even take a Play rough + aqua jet from Azumarill and it is a good answer to the band set too if not switch in a play rough. The set let it do what it needs to, rocks, standard EQ, fire blast for opposing ferrothorn and scizor and dragon tail for stopping enemy setup and it is actully a pretty good answer to Smeargle's GeoPass. I think a rise can be a good thing for it.

Speaking about Chansey I can't actually see a rise. It's fine where it is. It is very dependant on knock off, it is taunt and setup bait of a plethora of things and can only be played on Stall, a playstyle with the ability to balance the negative effects of its passiveness. I can, instead, see a rise of Skarmory do to the access of ita suicide lead set. Being able to fit both on stall and offense is a good point for it and maybe this could be a good reason for a rise.

I don't agree on a Ttar rise too. Yes, it's the best trapper in the meta and it's very common right now but looking at the A+ rank, i don't see it on the same level of things like Maltaria, Mlopunny or Gengar. Despite its good bulk it's easy to take down, its speed is good but not so good, not being able to revenge a plethora of thing. Yes, it's a good stop to talonflame (fuck will o wisp :-( ), it's the best pursuit trapper and it's good thanks to how well it pairs to things like Lando-i and for setting up sand for Excadrill. This being said, i don't think this benefits cover ita flaws and I think A is enough for it.

Just a thing on Mlopunny. Yes, it's easily revenged by Talonflame, but please, Landog can't come in, fire off an EQ and ger a kill, it can't neither after 3 SR damages on lopunny and it (ofc doesn't want to take a ton of damage), can almost kill back with Ice punch.

Have a good day people!

 

[bludz]

Latias down to A- or lower
Latias isn't very great in the current metagame. It loses to a majority of the pokemon in S and A rank (Diance, Clefable, Mega Meta, Mega Altaria, Ferrothorn, etc.) and what it does beat is often paired up with a Pursuit user such as Bisharp, Scizor, or Tyranitar. It suffers from a huge amount of 4MSS (wants to run Healing wish, roost, Psyshock, Surf, HP Fire, defog, Draco Meteor on the same set but can't) and its lack of power prevents it from being able to defend itself from pursuit users and bulky pokemon such as chansey, jirachi, and Klefki.

The issue with this argument is that all these things apply to Latios as well. Tyranitar is by far the most common pursuit user and Latios struggles equally against it. CB Scizor (which isn't super common and usually runs Knock Off > Pursuit) avoids a 2HKO from both twins lacking HP Fire as well. Bisharp is the only difference in terms of pursuit users, but 1) SD is far more common than pursuit and 2) Latias actually has a very small chance to 2HKO with Draco Meteor, and this chance increases a lot if Bisharp took any prior damage. Neither beats Diancie, Clefable, Chansey, Jirachi, etc.

If you make a nomination like this, it'd be helpful to differentiate why Latias should drop and not Latios, which this post didn't do.

Personally I don't agree. Balance and bulky offense are at home in the current metagame, and Latias fits onto many of those builds a bit better than its brother. It is able to more reliably check Keldeo and other things on Roost sets thanks to its better bulk, and Healing Wish provides a form of momentum for more offensive teams that Latios can only match with Memento which doesn't provide the same utility. Also, Latias can actually run full bulky sets with leftovers better. As a lure it is more effective than Latios, because it is actually unexpected, whereas with Latios Heatrans are pretty wary of Earthquake and most people are on higher alert for Trick Scarf in general.

I think this combination of things makes Latias effective enough that it should only stay 1 sub rank below its brother.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

I'd like to say that I don't support a ttar rise to A+. Tyranitar isn't a good pokemon, yes, which is why it's in A rank. But due to the fact that it's beaten by almost any pokemon with EQ that it cannot OHKO is a major flaw. Furthermore, Rotom-W and heatran give it lots of competition for a talonflame counter. As for It's STAB Attacks, crunch is good but somewhat lacking in power, and Stone Edge is extremely inaccurate. Coverage is good, but TTar can suffer from a slight case of 4-moveslot syndrome, having to pick between Fire Blast, EQ, ice punch, SR, Pursuit, and even sometimes low kick on select sets. I know that TTar does its job well (Pursuit trapping/handling the Lati twins) but it has just so many weaknesses that it's beaten by the majority of the tier. Finally, The AV Varients are worn down easily by rocks damage and switching in on too many attacks. Low speed also hinders TTar, as even with a choice scarf it isn't all that fast. For a pokemon with good stats across the board and a wide movepool, I find TTars uses somewhat... Select.

That's my take on the matter. Have a good day!

 

[Clone]

Magcargo I don't agree with a Latias drop. You listed many of its cons, and while they should definitely be taken into account, you made it sound like they only apply to Latias and not to her brother. I agree with many of the things Bludz already said, such as both of the Latis being pursuit trapped, and that neither can beat any of the things you mentioned unless Latios runs CM, which I admit is a very viable set. However, what Latias lacks in power she makes up for in bulk. She is a much more consistent check to things such as Thundurus, Landorus, Zard y, Keldeo, and mega Venusaur because she has the bulk to switch in on their strongest coverage moves and live to roost, while Latios would simply fall. Additionally, Latias can run full bulky sets while Latios cant. I've been using a team with a bulky Latias and its a great glue that holds the team together by providing Defog support while switching into many hits that Latios could only dream of. This is all anecdotal of course, but I truly believe that Latias is an invaluable glue for certain teams where other mins simply wont work.

Finally, Latias works really well on hyper offense because she has healing wish, which not only brings back a teammate to full health, but also allows her to escape a non Scarftar / other mons pursuit, whereas Latios would just die after getting off a hit. This I feel is one of the biggest reasons why Latias is so good, and untill that niche becomes irrelevant, I cannot see Latias dropping below A rank.

Also agree with srn that chomp should rise. Might make another post about that later.