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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
- Thread starter Rowan
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The benefit of the doubt is extremely relevant, as it is a priority of ours to create a metagame as inclusive as possible.
It's not just that new checks have been added, it's also how they've influenced the metagame and that has lead to new Pokemon rising and falling. You can't deny that the metagame has changed because of new threats like Gothita and Skrelp. It is entirely possible that now Missy or Tite or Yanma wouldn't be broken, as there have in fact been changes to the metagame as I have already established. By voting to nominate nothing, you are- as H&M said above me- just wasting everyone's time that they spent laddering. Clearly we agree nothing is broken right now, but I don't see why you're so adamant as to not retesting Pokemon. It's kind of ridiculous that you're failing to acknowledge that a healthy metagame should be as inclusive as possible, and if we're not going to suspect anything new then you might as well just not waste people's time by voting to nominate nothing and instead realize that suspecting banned Pokemon is a much better option. Seriously, it's incredibly disrespectful of you to vote that; you're essentially just invalidating all the work that people put into getting reqs. The key point of my argument is that it is possible that these Pokemon wouldn't be broken now. I'm not saying it's probable, I'm not saying it's a certainty, all I'm saying is that it might be that way. There's literally no sensible reason not to suspect these Pokemon, they'll probably still be broken but it's a great deal better than just making this suspect test a monumental waste of time like you seem intent on doing.
TL;DR: The ubers are probably still broken, but it's better that we suspect them than we vote to ban stuff like Bellsprout. Nominating nothing is just useless and all that does is waste people's time.
Edit: Aerow I was under the impression that was what we were going to do all along lol
How. How does a council of twelve experienced players automatically reintroduce a broken mon into the meta they obviously care enough about to be good at? How do you put so little recognition into the knowledge those people will have to have?
If we retest and rediscover brokenness, it will not stay, and I really do believe that.
I think the thing is, you may have worked so hard for reqs to nominate something, and you don't want that hard work to go in the trash, but if you feel that we should retest something that you are't fairly certain can come back to the meta, you're wasting other's time and energy, like the people on the council.
Personally as a newer player and this being the first suspect test I have really experienced (I remember when I joined, the verdict of Missy/Fletch just came out) I do think I gained a lot and if we don't do anything, it won't be in vain. I've realized structures of a meta, how things rise and fall, and how it effects things. I've learned about subjectiveness of pokemon terms like uncompetitive and broken. I've read through some amazing posts, long or short and I was able to get a bit of knowledge of the past metas like swirlgar and missy that I wasn't here for, and learn about their brokeness and what factors contributed to that. And I learned much more. Even if you are very seasoned veteran, you still got to participate in discussion and listen to everyone else's ideas and try to explain your points of views while you analyze the meta with a lot of thought and care.
Albeit frustrating, reqs laddering was actually helpful to me personally. Being newer, I definitely struggle with building and playing more offensive teams correctly, and instead, I use the safe mons and cores I know I should try to avoid using over and over. However, stall isn't exactly the best play style for fast laddering, so I had to attempt to build a be able to pilot and build more offensive teams and be able to focus on offensive synergy instead of being worried about being able to check/counter every threat in the meta. And I mean even if you're a better player, ladder giveshorrible/ innovative sets I guess, like Dazzling Gleam Gastly.
Personally as a newer player and this being the first suspect test I have really experienced (I remember when I joined, the verdict of Missy/Fletch just came out) I do think I gained a lot and if we don't do anything, it won't be in vain. I've realized structures of a meta, how things rise and fall, and how it effects things. I've learned about subjectiveness of pokemon terms like uncompetitive and broken. I've read through some amazing posts, long or short and I was able to get a bit of knowledge of the past metas like swirlgar and missy that I wasn't here for, and learn about their brokeness and what factors contributed to that. And I learned much more. Even if you are very seasoned veteran, you still got to participate in discussion and listen to everyone else's ideas and try to explain your points of views while you analyze the meta with a lot of thought and care.
Albeit frustrating, reqs laddering was actually helpful to me personally. Being newer, I definitely struggle with building and playing more offensive teams correctly, and instead, I use the safe mons and cores I know I should try to avoid using over and over. However, stall isn't exactly the best play style for fast laddering, so I had to attempt to build a be able to pilot and build more offensive teams and be able to focus on offensive synergy instead of being worried about being able to check/counter every threat in the meta. And I mean even if you're a better player, ladder gives
Heysup I understand your concern about retests as they're done now - there's a good chance the mons are still broken, and a vote to unban sets a test where the standard is "this mon is unbanned immediately", creating a burden of proof to ban (for example) yanma again. What if we edited the null hypothesis to "Yanma is broken; we'll playtest to see if it isn't", therefore meaning any unban would have to surmount the pre-stated idea that Yanma is broken? So we'd only free it if we were absolutely sure. It would still take the judgement of the old council as a given fact until proven otherwise, respecting their judgement; I doubt a new council is going to be radically different in their standards of assessment, so an unban (following a playtest) would reflect an informed, rational decision on the part of the very best lc players that the meta had changed, a decision that would also pay respect to the judgement of the old council. I agree with you there's risk in a straight unban - it's basically hypothesising something is no longer broken without convincing evidence to suggest the old council was wrong. That's why i support a playtest - giving people a chance to test for themselves if the meta has changed - and a burden of "there needs to be convincing proof that Yanma ISN'T broken", a system i dont see major problems with.
First of all, says who? An outdated metagame thread? As far as I'm concerned our first priority is to make a balanced or most competitive (whatever that means) metagame. Other people would say their first concern is to make the funnest metagame.
Second, a benefit of the doubt applies in the standard for banning, not in a retest. It's not relevant.
This is probably the first thing I agree with but that logic is blatantly fallacious. It's akin to that of a false dichotomy. "it's less dumb than one of the really stupid alternatives, so of course it's a good option!" - I'm sure you don't need me to explain how little sense that makes. If the best or most logical option is to not do anything, it's the best or most logical option.
Wasting time is a bullshit argument. If you're backtracking, which you have failed to prove is not the case (while I have actually shown that it is), then how is that not a bigger waste of time. If nothing is banned that means we've finally arrived at an ideal metagame. Additionally, everyone who got reqs and votes to nominate nothing is not wasting anyone's time in the first place. They spent their equally valuable time getting requirements to protect the metagame from detrimental changes. Don't talk about disrespect when you're ready to ignore the hard work of previous req-getters and council and, ironically, waste even more time.
Not doing something wrong > doing something negative.
Apt-get said it best on IRC:
<@apt-get> [...] saying that "these mons might not be broken anymore because new mons vaguely related to the banned mons have been introduced"
<@apt-get> is poor reasoning
There is a very very very limited rational connection to the banned Pokemon and the fact that over the last few posts you've ignored the fact that you need to prove a substantial difference in the metagame in order to justify a retest is quite telling of the fact that there simply isn't. A metagame-shift without a chance in substance is not even close to a valid reason.
More like how can you put so little recognition into the knowledge that the council has by doubting them for no substantial reason?
If the council elects to unban a Pokemon, it will be unbanned and be subject to the same process unless Rowan and macle change the policy.
Furthermore, even if we were considering introducing a "fake" metagame with the suspects accomplishes nothing and introduces biases. This is why in the past we actually stopped doing that. You are subconsciously tempted vote for a metagame that's you have a better team for or <insert any other irrational reason to ban something>. It overtakes the metagame as the focus and those Pokemon will be banned in the same way.
If the council's decisions are constantly going to be ignored, what is the point? If you keep drawing for the Ace, you'll eventually get it and something will be unbanned.
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The thought of anyone wanting to overturning past council decisions or even questioning those decisions, not to mention ignoring the hard work of anyone who took the time to achieve reqs and participate in the nomination process, is absurd, and frankly, makes me sick. Especially when the users who seek to do so have more than likely never played in those metagames enough to have a true understanding of them. There is no good reason to make any changes to the metagame when we already have a stable and balanced metagame, no matter how stale it may be to you. To be quite honest, if enough people seriously want Yanma or anything else unbanned that it actually happens, I don't think LC should be taken seriously anymore.
Infamy First I want to say that I wrote this about three hours ago, soon after you posted, but the forums acted wonky so I couldn't post. I apologize if anything in this appears elsewhere.
While I certainly appreciate the sentiment in your post, I can't help but feel that retesting any of the banned Pokemon you listed will provide anything other than a reconfirmation of "broken, keep banned" in the current meta.
I'll go through the three you listed, one at a time, and explain why I feel they should not be retested. This is in order of most opposed to least, so the last I would be least adverse to retesting (though I would still prefer not to). Warning, this gets loooong, and I don't have a TL;DR.
First up is Meditite. Meditite is a nuclear warhead of a wallbreaker, plain an simple. Its power is overwhelming, to the point where countering it is nigh impossible and many things fail to check it either. Back in its heyday there were three main, very different, sets. ScarfTite, LO Meditite, and EvioTite, with a few variants such as Baton Pass Meditite mixed in. Each had different things capable of checking or countering it, and each played in a very different way.
ScarfTite was a revenge killer that could also function as a sweeper and a wallbreaker. It could choose to forgo Bullet Punch much more easily than the other variants, leaving it two slots for coverage moves instead of one. And ScarfTite still hit like a truck. HJK coming off of 28 attack 2HKOed most things that resisted it and OHKOed pretty much everything else. Even with something to burn Meditite, it still would kill whatever you switched in, and 14 attack (while significantly less powerful) was still enough for Meditite to continue to kill things even after burn, in comparison to most other physical attackers. Meditite also had extremely good coverage, with the elemental punches, Poison Jab, and ZHB/Psycho Cut. Countering it required outpredicting it, but of course Scarf Meditite was prone to being forced out after it killed something, and was fairly frail. It was also weak to priority (fletchling in particular) and faster scarfers.
EvioTite and LO Tite played in a more similar fashion, but instead sacrificed speed and power for either bulk or power beyond power. Eviolite Meditite was by no means unbulky, especially if it ran less than max speed, and could take several neutral hits and remain healthy with an insanely powerful drain punch, while also still dealing out incredible damage with decent coverage. Bullet Punch even gave it a way to deal with weakened attempts at revenge killing. LO Meditite, on the other hand, was a WMD in LC. There is nothing in the tier than can take any of Meditite's good coverage options and avoid a 2HKO, bar very bulky Berry Juice Pokemon. LO Meditite killed everything in its path, plain and simple, at the cost of significant bulk. Both sets, however, suffered from middling speed, especially because Meditite always ran Adamant, and were still prone to revenge killing (EvioTite less so).
LO Tite's power:
196+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 10-13 (37 - 48.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
What has changed? We've lost two of the premier Tite checks in Murkrow and Misdreavus, and two playstyles which benefit Meditite immensely are rising, Baton Pass (which Meditite can learn)/Quickpass and Sticky Web. If torchic successfully passes to Meditite and your team lacks Fletchling, there is virtually no way for you to overcome it, especially if Torchic gets Meditite a curse boost or two. On Sticky Web teams, Meditite now has most of the benefits of ScarfTite while still being able to run a nuke set or eviolite.
What are the benefits of bringing Meditite back? Well, it'd reduce Mienfoo's usage significantly. And about a quarter of the tier. It would, however, provide an extremely powerful wallbreaker to a relatively defensive point in the meta.
In significantly less words, Misdreavus is also undeserving of a retest. Besides the obvious facts of its stats, it was also the last suspect, and I don't feel enough has really changed to make it retest worthy. Misdreavus would still be dominant in the meta and worth using on most teams.
Misdreavus is very fast, very strong, and much bulkier than most fast and strong Pokemon. It also had multiple sets, from BJ SubPlot and NP+3 Attacks to Scarf Missy. There was an extremely limited pool of things which could outright beat it, and Misdreavus could easily sweep weakened teams. During its time it was by far the dominant mon in the tier, and had multiple strong points.
Your defense for it is unfortunately weak. Knock off has always been common and Misdreavus still thrived, beating most Knock Off users and with its great bulk (60/60/85 is nothing to condemn) it could easily take a knock off. Its offensive options weren't lacking either, as it also had Dazzling Gleam and Thunderbolt to help Misdreavus beat attempted checks. Its ability, while perhaps not the best, is far from useless and at least doesn't hinder Misdreavus. At the absolute least it is immune to Webs, Spikes, and T-Spikes while not being SR weak.
Ultimately I feel it is at least too early for a Misdreavus retest and that it would still be broken.
Yanma is more interesting and #FreeYanma's been around for goddamn forever. I swear it showed up before it was even banned. Compoundeyes Hypnosis is the name of the issue here, and it's sorta huge. Unlike Meditite and Misdreavus I'm not much of a Yangela person (or Tangma, if you swing that way) so I may be off here.
Unlike Foongus, Yanma is fast. Like wow fast. 20 speed fast, and if it wants it can run speed boost (although its worse than Compoundeyes Hypnosis). If we simply banned Compoundeyes and Hypnosis (which I am hugely opposed to, see below) then Yanma would probably not be banned. However, in that case, Speed Boost would almost certainly become the ability of choice, allowing Yanma to run significantly less speed in exchange for some amount of bulk and power. Yanma's not weak, and has decent STABs, with good coverage overall.
Hypnosis differs wildly from Foongus' spore. Yanma can hypnosis before the opponent attacks pretty much all the time, and only takes one hit from an opponent who wakes up unlike Foongus who will take a hit before spore or two if they wake up. In addition, Hypnosis doesn't have that pesky side effect of having a type (+vullaby) immune to it. Yanma's rock weakness is a downside, but ultimately not quite enough.
A Hypnosis+CEyes ban would nerf Yanma significantly, but complex bans are a bad idea in my opinion and led to spiraling. Complex bans add to the entry difficulty of the meta, requiring understanding of why this specific thing is broken. It is also an attempt to avoid the issue of a Pokemon being broken if played well. Lastly it easily lends itself to spiraling out of control. How about we unban Swirlix but ban CG or Belly Drum on Swirlix? Ban Eviolite and Berry Juice on gligar. And it does spiral, look at how complex bans suddenly became more acceptable and common after the first one of Drizzle+SS in OU.
Lastly, this is a punishment to a specific Pokemon, not a needed nerf to a playstyle that dominates. Banning Knock Off (for example) is more invasive but not a specific nerf to a dominant Pokemon, although it also does that.
Overall I am less adverse to retesting Yanma, but still overall oppose it, largely due to my opposition to Pokemon-specific complex bans.
I want to thank you for your post, however, which was extremely well written in my opinion. You certainly swayed me slightly.
While I certainly appreciate the sentiment in your post, I can't help but feel that retesting any of the banned Pokemon you listed will provide anything other than a reconfirmation of "broken, keep banned" in the current meta.
I'll go through the three you listed, one at a time, and explain why I feel they should not be retested. This is in order of most opposed to least, so the last I would be least adverse to retesting (though I would still prefer not to). Warning, this gets loooong, and I don't have a TL;DR.
First up is Meditite. Meditite is a nuclear warhead of a wallbreaker, plain an simple. Its power is overwhelming, to the point where countering it is nigh impossible and many things fail to check it either. Back in its heyday there were three main, very different, sets. ScarfTite, LO Meditite, and EvioTite, with a few variants such as Baton Pass Meditite mixed in. Each had different things capable of checking or countering it, and each played in a very different way.
ScarfTite was a revenge killer that could also function as a sweeper and a wallbreaker. It could choose to forgo Bullet Punch much more easily than the other variants, leaving it two slots for coverage moves instead of one. And ScarfTite still hit like a truck. HJK coming off of 28 attack 2HKOed most things that resisted it and OHKOed pretty much everything else. Even with something to burn Meditite, it still would kill whatever you switched in, and 14 attack (while significantly less powerful) was still enough for Meditite to continue to kill things even after burn, in comparison to most other physical attackers. Meditite also had extremely good coverage, with the elemental punches, Poison Jab, and ZHB/Psycho Cut. Countering it required outpredicting it, but of course Scarf Meditite was prone to being forced out after it killed something, and was fairly frail. It was also weak to priority (fletchling in particular) and faster scarfers.
EvioTite and LO Tite played in a more similar fashion, but instead sacrificed speed and power for either bulk or power beyond power. Eviolite Meditite was by no means unbulky, especially if it ran less than max speed, and could take several neutral hits and remain healthy with an insanely powerful drain punch, while also still dealing out incredible damage with decent coverage. Bullet Punch even gave it a way to deal with weakened attempts at revenge killing. LO Meditite, on the other hand, was a WMD in LC. There is nothing in the tier than can take any of Meditite's good coverage options and avoid a 2HKO, bar very bulky Berry Juice Pokemon. LO Meditite killed everything in its path, plain and simple, at the cost of significant bulk. Both sets, however, suffered from middling speed, especially because Meditite always ran Adamant, and were still prone to revenge killing (EvioTite less so).
LO Tite's power:
196+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 10-13 (37 - 48.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
What has changed? We've lost two of the premier Tite checks in Murkrow and Misdreavus, and two playstyles which benefit Meditite immensely are rising, Baton Pass (which Meditite can learn)/Quickpass and Sticky Web. If torchic successfully passes to Meditite and your team lacks Fletchling, there is virtually no way for you to overcome it, especially if Torchic gets Meditite a curse boost or two. On Sticky Web teams, Meditite now has most of the benefits of ScarfTite while still being able to run a nuke set or eviolite.
What are the benefits of bringing Meditite back? Well, it'd reduce Mienfoo's usage significantly. And about a quarter of the tier. It would, however, provide an extremely powerful wallbreaker to a relatively defensive point in the meta.
In significantly less words, Misdreavus is also undeserving of a retest. Besides the obvious facts of its stats, it was also the last suspect, and I don't feel enough has really changed to make it retest worthy. Misdreavus would still be dominant in the meta and worth using on most teams.
Misdreavus is very fast, very strong, and much bulkier than most fast and strong Pokemon. It also had multiple sets, from BJ SubPlot and NP+3 Attacks to Scarf Missy. There was an extremely limited pool of things which could outright beat it, and Misdreavus could easily sweep weakened teams. During its time it was by far the dominant mon in the tier, and had multiple strong points.
Your defense for it is unfortunately weak. Knock off has always been common and Misdreavus still thrived, beating most Knock Off users and with its great bulk (60/60/85 is nothing to condemn) it could easily take a knock off. Its offensive options weren't lacking either, as it also had Dazzling Gleam and Thunderbolt to help Misdreavus beat attempted checks. Its ability, while perhaps not the best, is far from useless and at least doesn't hinder Misdreavus. At the absolute least it is immune to Webs, Spikes, and T-Spikes while not being SR weak.
Ultimately I feel it is at least too early for a Misdreavus retest and that it would still be broken.
Yanma is more interesting and #FreeYanma's been around for goddamn forever. I swear it showed up before it was even banned. Compoundeyes Hypnosis is the name of the issue here, and it's sorta huge. Unlike Meditite and Misdreavus I'm not much of a Yangela person (or Tangma, if you swing that way) so I may be off here.
Unlike Foongus, Yanma is fast. Like wow fast. 20 speed fast, and if it wants it can run speed boost (although its worse than Compoundeyes Hypnosis). If we simply banned Compoundeyes and Hypnosis (which I am hugely opposed to, see below) then Yanma would probably not be banned. However, in that case, Speed Boost would almost certainly become the ability of choice, allowing Yanma to run significantly less speed in exchange for some amount of bulk and power. Yanma's not weak, and has decent STABs, with good coverage overall.
Hypnosis differs wildly from Foongus' spore. Yanma can hypnosis before the opponent attacks pretty much all the time, and only takes one hit from an opponent who wakes up unlike Foongus who will take a hit before spore or two if they wake up. In addition, Hypnosis doesn't have that pesky side effect of having a type (+vullaby) immune to it. Yanma's rock weakness is a downside, but ultimately not quite enough.
A Hypnosis+CEyes ban would nerf Yanma significantly, but complex bans are a bad idea in my opinion and led to spiraling. Complex bans add to the entry difficulty of the meta, requiring understanding of why this specific thing is broken. It is also an attempt to avoid the issue of a Pokemon being broken if played well. Lastly it easily lends itself to spiraling out of control. How about we unban Swirlix but ban CG or Belly Drum on Swirlix? Ban Eviolite and Berry Juice on gligar. And it does spiral, look at how complex bans suddenly became more acceptable and common after the first one of Drizzle+SS in OU.
Lastly, this is a punishment to a specific Pokemon, not a needed nerf to a playstyle that dominates. Banning Knock Off (for example) is more invasive but not a specific nerf to a dominant Pokemon, although it also does that.
Overall I am less adverse to retesting Yanma, but still overall oppose it, largely due to my opposition to Pokemon-specific complex bans.
I want to thank you for your post, however, which was extremely well written in my opinion. You certainly swayed me slightly.
This might be a dumb question, but:
If the metagame shifted since a pokemon was banned, BECAUSE SAID POKEMON WAS BANNED, would our current meta not shift back to what it was when the pokemon we'd retest was allowed previously?
This seems blatantly counter productive if true to almost any extent to me and would be just an excuse to shift the meta as you're bored with it.
EDIT: It looks like most of the pressure to retest is from people who never played in the meta's where the pokemon they want retested we allowed. I know this isn't exclusively that group, but the fact that these new-er players make up a notable percentage says something.
If the metagame shifted since a pokemon was banned, BECAUSE SAID POKEMON WAS BANNED, would our current meta not shift back to what it was when the pokemon we'd retest was allowed previously?
This seems blatantly counter productive if true to almost any extent to me and would be just an excuse to shift the meta as you're bored with it.
EDIT: It looks like most of the pressure to retest is from people who never played in the meta's where the pokemon they want retested we allowed. I know this isn't exclusively that group, but the fact that these new-er players make up a notable percentage says something.
Consider how playstyles evolve even in the absence of said Pokemon. New cores and strategies that were discovered upon the removal of a banned threat may or may not even be related to said Pokemon's removal. Everything is intrinsic and we wouldn't actually know until the Pokemon is unbanned again for a period of time. also we had the new ORAS tutor moves added to the mix, which may or may not be effective for allowing certain Pokemon to becomes checks/counters to once-banned threats.
Are you implying that I may be personally biased to unban things because I have a better team for that meta when I legitimately have been here for a month?? You seem to enjoy calling out bad logic, so there ya go.
Also, I wouldn't say we're ignoring the previous council's decisions; rather, I'd say it's a review. Once again, I'll go over a few points:
- If a mon is still broken, the council will likely keep it banned
- If by chance they unban it, it will be because they believe it to no longer be broken
- If by further chance it turns out to actually truly be broken, we try to find ways to beat it in a period of meta play, akin to fletchling
- If by further chance we cannot shift the meta around the unbanned mon, we reban it
Hey mate, I know we're buds and all but I'm gonna call you out a bit :)
As you state in your opening line, you've been here a month which means you weren't around for the metagame when Missy or Yanma or anything was still allowed; this leads me to believe that you want them unbanned just so that you yourself can confirm whether they're broken or not or so that you can just have some fun using Pokemon that have been deemed broken in the past. I can understand players like apt-get pushing for a retest because they played consistently during past metas and legitimately believe that the Pokemon isn't entirely broken, but your inexperience in past metagames leads me to believe that you just want it retested so you can play around with it.
I could be interpreting this entirely wrong, but that's my general perception when I see newer players such as yourself voting to retest something. And you're not the only one, quite a few people who aren't familiar with the past metas voted for a retest. Hell, I fall victim to this too as I was just starting out towards the end of Tangma which is why I don't feel it'd be justified for me to vote for a retest of Yanma.
Alright, I give ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ now that you bring it up, I realize you're correct. Still, I am convinced that at least Yanma could bring something positive things to the meta. Got a little carried away, my bad! :/
Infamy makes some pgood points tho, idk if he was there or not, but y'know :/
Yanma cannot bring anything positive to the meta. Instant momentum with Hypnosis+ U-Turn kinda fucks shit up, especially considering that Yanma has a large offensive presence. While I realize there are actually a decent number of checks to Yanma (many of which weren't mentioned by anyone, such as Spritz), the fact that it can at best effortlessly shut down said checks, and at worst still gain a shitton of momentum over whatever takes the sleep makes it pretty unreasonable to put back in LC. Teambuilding is limited as it is, so why do people think that mandating a pairing among Spritz, Archen, Fletch, Pawniard, Ponyta, Chinchou, Vullaby, and Magnemite is a good idea? Bear in mind that these checks aren't necessarily solid, they are just the ones that came to mind.
I'm not gonna lie guys, we need to stop trying to frame our arguments around council. "But council put so much effort into the Yanma test", "Council can just vote against Yanma" are pretty bad attempts on both sides of the aisle to shift responsibility away from individual users. Gonna put this bluntly: If you do not value rational discourse (which I'll remind you that council participates in) as a part of the suspect process, then you shouldn't post in this thread, be it because you want people to feel guilty or because you want to leave it strictly to council. Let's focus on the state of the metagame, PLEASE.
I'm not gonna lie guys, we need to stop trying to frame our arguments around council. "But council put so much effort into the Yanma test", "Council can just vote against Yanma" are pretty bad attempts on both sides of the aisle to shift responsibility away from individual users. Gonna put this bluntly: If you do not value rational discourse (which I'll remind you that council participates in) as a part of the suspect process, then you shouldn't post in this thread, be it because you want people to feel guilty or because you want to leave it strictly to council. Let's focus on the state of the metagame, PLEASE.
It's not about doubting what the council decided at the time was right, it's the fact that the meta has changed to a point that, for example the introduction of eviolite, the banning of other pokemon that rendered checks to yanma unviable at the time, people no longer running gligars/dreavus/meditite/murk and other threats along with their necessary checks, allowed the rise of hazards and other gameplay's viability and a lot more solidity in team building. While yanma 18 SpA would hit very hard on times that lacked eviolite, nowadays it's not a really overwhelmingly threatening attack, specially with the ammount of walls we now have like spritzee, fast hypnosis + compound eyes sure have it's own undeniable strenght, but overall, with the ammount of stealth rocks, fletchling, vullaby, magnemite, ponyta, chinchou, ferroseed, munchlax, porygon, archen, spritzee, snubbull, heck, even honedge, and other potential checks and counters already present in the meta, opportunities for yanma to be active are potentially lower, along with a potential 4mss if it would run roost as well to have some durability. This seem a hell lot of checks for yanma present in the meta at the moment, and nothing would probably even change about it.
I confess i wasn't here when yanma got banned, but as far as i'm aware, the meta seems to have changed so much since gen 4 that it could deserve another opinion about him in the new meta in gen 6. Sure we could be wrong, but at least it wouldn't hurt to try how it goes with yanma in the present meta. It could eventually turn out that despites it's high utility on hypnosis, the new meta could find yanma rather frail, specially taking into account his weakness to rocks and birds present in the new meta. It doesn't seem to me that the meta would shift out of their way because of yanma presence for his potential checks and counters are already common in the meta, with or without the complex ban on compound eyes.
I confess i wasn't here when yanma got banned, but as far as i'm aware, the meta seems to have changed so much since gen 4 that it could deserve another opinion about him in the new meta in gen 6. Sure we could be wrong, but at least it wouldn't hurt to try how it goes with yanma in the present meta. It could eventually turn out that despites it's high utility on hypnosis, the new meta could find yanma rather frail, specially taking into account his weakness to rocks and birds present in the new meta. It doesn't seem to me that the meta would shift out of their way because of yanma presence for his potential checks and counters are already common in the meta, with or without the complex ban on compound eyes.
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I'm not going to post here unil this discussion calms down a bit. I know that I personally have been getting really frustrated because I feel like some people really aren't listening to reason and cherrypicking minor fallacies in arguments and trying to blow them out of proportion. I think people need to just chill, and Heysup needs to realize this isn't a courtroom and he's not getting filthy rich for being so stubborn. If everyone could just be a little more open-minded and actually give some substantial thought to people's arguments before responding, I think we could really improve the mood here because right now it's kind of cancerous
^ ironic af.
As I said before, I'm not the one making or responding to personal attacks (hint: you are) but I'm cool as a cucumber. If you get mad that I'm picking your argument apart, well, I guess that's too bad. I'm going to do what I can to protect the integrity of the metagame.
EDIT: Apparently it's unclear what a personal attack is. It's usually something people resort to when they run out of real things to say. It is lazy and is a completely pathetic attempt to dismiss an argument. Read the bold for an example.
1. Meta changes, based on stats, are only based around that Pokemon leaving. As I've said already, Elgyem is not a thing because Meditite is gone. Just because Elgyem isn't used any more, does not mean there is a substantial metagame shift. Also uh...Eviolite has been around since gen 5.
2. Those Pokemon are not good checks for Yanma.
3. Spritzee, Eviolite, Fletchling, SR, Vullaby, Magnemite, Pony, Chinchou, Ferroseed, Munchlax, Porygon, Archen, Snubbull and Honedge were all around during Yanma's metagame. It thrived anyway. Restalk Munchlax was like the only reliable counter.
4. Yanma does not have 4MSS. Hypnosis / Air Slash / Bug Buzz / Filler (I prefer Sub or U-turn).
You realize Yanma was banned in Gen 6 right? I don't see how your argument holds with that fact in mind (or even without it, but still).
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I'm not sure when I made a personal attack on you, but I'm sorry if you feel that way and I did not intend any of my statements in to be perceived in that manner. Also, and maybe this is just me, but I don't think making snarky comments about other users is exactly what I'd call respectful. There was literally no reason for you to reply to that, and I'm not sure why you insist on replying to every post even when all I'm trying to do is tell people to chill a little bit. I also never once said that you were responsible, in whole or in part, for what I spoke about in that post. Really, I can see that you read it but I don't think you understood it- the whole purpose was to get people to be nicer to each other, which you really aren't doing right now.
Okay instead of discussing policy about bans and whatnot (which Heysup is obviously right about), let's discuss why you guys think the meta has shifted in a way that would make retests healthy (even though the meta has only shifted because of the absence of these mons for the most part).
#freeyanma trend: Yanma in its respective meta had to run 20 speed in order to check certain key threats, you do realize? Now with those things banned, Yanma doesn't need to invest much at all in speed-- at most it would only need to run 18. This leaves Yanma able to invest in bulk and be modest. Most of the people in the #freeyanma trend are assuming that speedboost Yanma would be the same Yanma in the tangma (or yangela if you swing that way) meta, and that's a ridiculous assumption. It doesn't need to run protect, so it can run Giga Drain + HP [w/e]. Modest Yanma 2HKOs Spritzee, Porygon, Vullaby, evio Archen (all assuming SR in play)... do I need to go on? Also lol @ Magnemite checking Yanma. If you people played even a second in tangma you would know speedboost yanma ran HP Ground. One final thing about Yanma: Bug/Flying is actually a decent defensive typing, minus its 4x weakness to rock. You would literally be forced to run Fletchling to revenge Yanma, because other forms of priority Yanma has the bulk to tank or is 4x resistant to.
I'm not knowledgeable enough about Meditite to make too big a post about it, but all I know is that I certainly don't want to retest Meditite without Misdreavus in the meta and I certainly don't want Misdreavus in the meta.
#freeyanma trend: Yanma in its respective meta had to run 20 speed in order to check certain key threats, you do realize? Now with those things banned, Yanma doesn't need to invest much at all in speed-- at most it would only need to run 18. This leaves Yanma able to invest in bulk and be modest. Most of the people in the #freeyanma trend are assuming that speedboost Yanma would be the same Yanma in the tangma (or yangela if you swing that way) meta, and that's a ridiculous assumption. It doesn't need to run protect, so it can run Giga Drain + HP [w/e]. Modest Yanma 2HKOs Spritzee, Porygon, Vullaby, evio Archen (all assuming SR in play)... do I need to go on? Also lol @ Magnemite checking Yanma. If you people played even a second in tangma you would know speedboost yanma ran HP Ground. One final thing about Yanma: Bug/Flying is actually a decent defensive typing, minus its 4x weakness to rock. You would literally be forced to run Fletchling to revenge Yanma, because other forms of priority Yanma has the bulk to tank or is 4x resistant to.
I'm not knowledgeable enough about Meditite to make too big a post about it, but all I know is that I certainly don't want to retest Meditite without Misdreavus in the meta and I certainly don't want Misdreavus in the meta.
I think an important thing to consider at this point is how we will proceed further with Little Cup if we choose "suspect nothing." Does that mean that this is the last suspect test / ladder run for Little Cup, at least until the next set of games? If we decide there is nothing we want to suspect further then we need to figure out what to do from here on out as ORAS Little Cup will be finished from this point.
Also, Heysup how the fuck do you have so little to do that you respond to each and every single post in this thread with a tl;dr??? I can't even make myself read every post in this thread. jesus christ get a life you nerd
Also, Heysup how the fuck do you have so little to do that you respond to each and every single post in this thread with a tl;dr??? I can't even make myself read every post in this thread. jesus christ get a life you nerd
Out of those checks, only Vullaby, Pory, Munchlax, Archen, and Spritzee are actually (relatively) solid checks. Note that in hopes of checking Hypnomiss effectively, you would need at least two of those due to sleep. Dunno how you figure 75 boosted by LO isn't hitting that hard, since that's actually more painful than most attacks, especially in a metagame that's physically bulky. Roost is not necessary to Yanma, nor would I even recommend it.
Interesting fact: Fletchling was common in Tangma, and still didn't hurt its viability. Be it a late game sweeper or pivot, Yanma is never really a liability to use. Given that and the fact it can easily play around its counters makes it hard for me to believe that anyone would want it back for the sake of the metagame
As for meta shifts, Murkrow, one of Yanma's better checks isn't around. If anything, I'd argue the meta shifted towards Yanma's favour, not its detriment.
Also queenlucy I was more concerned with Hypnoturn. Speed Boost sweeper is easier to check.
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Uhh. I hate to barge in here, since it's been a while since my main post in this thread about Mienfoo/Pawniard, but I feel like giving my two cents about the current discussion.
Yanma
When I first started playing LC, it was during the Yanma/Tangela era. I didn't have the knowledge to truly grasp their impact on the metagame, but I could tell they were broken and unhealthy, because I've played other metagames before. The definition of broken doesn't really change at all, only the circumstances do. Introduction aside, Yanma is ridiculously broken. Compoundeyes + Hypnosis crippled basically everything, its STABs were godlike, had a nearly unbeatable speed tier, and with Sub, it could even be immune to status, or scout out moves, or take super-effective hits. Most importantly, using sleep or U-turn, it could keep up momentum after (flawlessly) doing its job. Whether that job was to wallbreak, sweep, or cheese the opponent with Hypnosis, there wasn't really anything stopping Yanma because of its incredible speed. SR definitely helped, but Berry Juice basically negates that damage, and if Yanma puts a Pokemon to sleep and makes a dent with either of its STABs while U-turning out at the speed of light, or sets up a sweep, it doesn't need to come back more than once. Plus, Defog and spin support was plentiful enough that any intelligent player could abuse Yanma's brokenness despite its checks / counters. That's something that I feel is kind of missing out from some of these posts. If something is broken, it'll make an extremely powerful impact on the game no matter what you throw at it. It doesn't have to auto-win (though in many circumstances it will), but in general, broken Pokemon will dictate the game. It's not a matter of "if I get SR up and switch into Magnemite, I win", but instead more of a "if Yanma puts my rock setter or Magnemite to sleep, I lose". A broken Pokemon will always have that effect. Yanma is just too good at doing what it does, and it does a lot of things. Also, complex bans are asinine and provide no extra stability than if the Pokemon was banned altogether. Making a Hypnosis+Compoundeyes ban would only kill one of Yanma's multiple broken strategies.
Meditite
Meditite has been broken since its inception as well. Pure Power was ridiculous. So ridiculous that Meditite's STABs could 2HKO resists, like Merritt explained. And that's not even factoring in what BP could do to a damaged Spritzee either. Nothing could withstand its overwhelming power, much like nothing could overcome Yanma's overwhelming speed, or Tangela's overwhelming bulk, or Gligar's overwhelming...everything. Burning it only delayed the inevitable. With Baton Pass surfacing as a playstyle, the thought of +2 Meditite is absolutely disgusting. Access to incredible coverage decreased its number of potential checks substantially, and even caused some of those checks to become irrelevant altogether. With such a high Attack stat, its priority, though STABless, cut through any attempts of revenge killing. When I first started playing, I had to put Honedge on my team because I was sick of Meditite. But, if Honedge ever died before it could kill Meditite, I lost the game automatically. When you have to play a 5-6 matchup to have a chance of beating a broken Pokemon, you know it's broken. I believe Meditite is actually more broken than Yanma, but that's irrelevant, since they're both broken. Meditite simply auto-wins more than Yanma does, but like I said before, a broken Pokemon doesn't necessarily need to auto-win 100% of the time to be broken. If it has an overwhelming effect on the game despite any checks or counters or any skill involved, it's broken, no exceptions.
Tangela
Please.
Misdreavus
I'm not a Missy-era player. I took a hiatus in between Swirlix and Misdreavus. But that didn't stop me from believing Misdreavus was broken. Other people in this thread have explained it enough, and I don't have the knowledge to contribute. But, that being said, a Pokemon with atrociously high base stats cannot be ignored, especially since it has amazing coverage and sweeping potential.
What happens to LC?
Since LC is a balanced metagame the way it is, it will continue to function as a balanced metagame should. Usage will fluctuate, innovations will arise, checks will be re-established, and the process repeats. We may not be able to do another suspect round until the next game, and that's fine. If something was truly broken, a suspect phase would determine that, but since nothing is truly broken at the moment, we don't need one. There's no need to complicate a great metagame with a needlessly bureaucratic process to incite change that isn't necessary. "Mixing up the metagame" is ludicrous, as it contradicts the point of having a balanced metagame, which is what suspect tests are supposed to accomplish.
Whew.
It was almost 5 in the morning so I didn't realize you were joking sorry blarajan
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Something's telling me blarajan was joking lol.
Honestly I hated Yanma, both sets kinda bothered me. The point is, I don't even think Yanma has the potential to be unbanned, since if you complex the whole "Compound Eyes + Hypnosis" it gives way for users to attempt dumb complexes (think Telepathy Meditite or Banning Unburden + Berry Juice with swirlix) The only thing I actually care enough about retesting hasn't gotten much talk as the others, which is Meditite. It can pick it's checks and hit harder than a 1950's Dad who found out his kid was a chain smoker, but that's really it. The common set was STAB/STAB/Priority/Coverage (usually Zen Headbutt/HJK/Bullet Punch/ThunderPunch) of course, you'll also want to have Fire Punch, Baton Pass, and Fake Out somewhere wedged on the set (ig FO can replace BP since I think BO mainly was for Swirlix)
Of course, I'm not gonna get into a whole Infamy Heysup like debate with anyone since I voiced my opinion by getting Reqs and nominating stuff.
TL;DR- complex bans are booty, #trytofreeMedi
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