Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

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Just some quick thoughts:

Kyurem-Black from B+ to A-: Agree
Reuniclus from C to C+: Agree although admittedly I'm not super familiar with it in this meta
Scizor from A to A+: Agree I made a post on it
Torn-T from A- to A: I am still a little unsure but leaning toward agree
I'm also inclined to agree with Jukain's nomination of Dragalge from B- to B, but I haven't used it a whole lot so my opinion is not the strongest.

Other stuff:
Serperior B- to B or B+: IMO B- is underselling the threat even if it is pretty one dimensional, the speed tier is fantastic
Volcarona B+ to A-: This may be a stretch, but I think it's worth at least giving some thought to. Really good in the current metagame.
 
Kyurem-B is amazing in this meta. It's amazing power makes it a great wallbreaker, it's ability (well, it can't do much else) to go mixed means it can break almost all non specialized walls, and it's scarf set makes pokes taking advantage of it's poor defensive ice typing to smack it with Stone Edge/Dragon STAB/Fighting STAB etc get hit with an attack they can't tank if they predict non scarf. Stuff like Lati@s, Lando and MMeta don't appreciate to mispedict a scarf and get bopped with an SE move. It can even hit fairies with iron head. I simply can't think of a switchin to it that doesn't lose. It needs to be in A-.

I also agree with Torn-T and Scizor moving up.
 
I see the main topic is Kyu B for A-.

Kyu B is a very underestimated threat. To the point where he is vastly overlooked. That's a common mistake, however. Being able to basically shred unprepared teams, balance, and even stall if hes lucky, this guy is probably the most underrated threat in OU.

His low profile is what makes him even better, too; he is unique from the other nominations: he isn't prepared for (although that wont last long) and has an amazing power stat of 170/120. Now, the most debatable part about him is his movepool. His movepool is fine to me; sure he has to go mixed but thats really not a big deal. While his best set is probably LO mixed, Scarf isnt too bad and his great offensive typing helps him out in most situations. He also has decent bulk and a cool 95 speed stat. This guy basically shreds balance and stall, and few things can stop it. A- for sure.

Now, I want to make my own special nomination. It does seem farfetched, but I think this little guy has what it takes.

Klefki: B+ ---> A-

This metagame isnt all about offensive capabilities, defensive capabilities, no no no. When it comes to the bottom line, we can all agree that this meta boils down to support. Without support, this meta would be stale and way too flexible. Just because Klefki does little to nothing on the field besides spamming Foul Plays does not mean it should be underestimated.

A very flexible support mon with an amazing ability in the form of Prankster, this thing deserves a lot of credit. With a great Defensive typing, Spikes, Magnet Rise, Dual Screens, Safeguard, Foul Play, Thunder Wave, etc. this thing can do a lot. Of course, it cant fit that on a single set, but even then it manages to not have 4MSS due to it not needing to run Dual Screens and Spikes on the same set.

With Spikes, he quickly throws a few spikes with ease faster than any other spiker in the game. With Dual Screens, he can support his team by giving them room to breathe and set up their attacks. With Thunder Wave, they can cripple anything that isnt Ground or Electric, and stops threats like TFlame. With Foul Play, it prevents most things from setting up, etc.

Now, I'd be lying if i said he was bulky, but with Dual Screens he is basically twice as bulky then he was before. Still, i think it has what it takes to be A-, but it will undeniably be one of the worst mons there.
 
Tyranitar is fine where it is imo. I'm exclusively going to talk about the scarf set here which I believe is the set people are claiming is A+ rank worthy, I know next to nothing about Band but I'm pretty sure it has too many problems to be considered TTar's best set. Though Scarf TTar is a great asset to balanced teams at the moment, it's just too easy to take advantage of for me to see it in A+. Because yes, it's an almost failproof way to remove the Latis from play, however even by trapping Latis you can easily render yourself vulnerable to something else. For instance, if the opponent has a Lando-I in the back, it can't really afford to pursuit trap Latios because that can just use it as setup fodder. same for MGyara, same for Bisharp to some extent (TTar can still revenge when it gets back in but can't switch in on Knock Off or Iron Head) : in fact, if Scarf TTar is your XZard check, you can't afford to pursuit Latis for the simple reason that after 2 DD boosts, Scarf TTar is OHKOed or close, so if you trap them, XZard can set up twice and win, which is pretty annoying. especially since Latis are relatively common partners to XZard. You can argue that Scarf TTar shouldn't be your sole XZard check, but the fact remains that TTar is often forced to only do one of the things it's supposed to do per battle, so its range of utility during a single battle isn't as wide as it seems in practice than in theory. And sure, you don't need to click Pursuit, but the fact that there are a lot of situations where TTar can't afford to do the #1 thing it's used for to do kinda blows. It just isn't hard to build so that you can make opposing TTar a liability. And when you're comparing it to other balance staples such as Gliscor and Clefable, who are far more durable, have more utility, and are honestly less easy to take advantage of, I can't really see TTar in A+.

Latias I guess I could see dropping to A- though I'm really on the fence about it. I'd say it's about on par with Starmie but let's not forget that Starmie is likely to move up in the next update nvm I'm blind and Starmie already moved up, in any case I don't really find it to be noticeably worse than Starmie so I guess I'm more leaning towards keeping it in A. It is true that things are pretty grim for Latias at the moment, with MMetagross being on every offensive team, and TTar or Clefable (or even both) on every balance team, the metagame is really stacked against it. However, I find it difficult to justify Latias being 2 subranks lower than Latios. Latios is defenitely better than Latias overral, however Latias still has a bunch of things going for it, the most important imo being the ability to handle Keldeo and Landorus more consistently. This is something which is really important atm, what with both of them being S rank and everything. And carrying Roost or Recover makes a hell of a lot of difference when it comes to being able to deal with them. And though Latios can carry recovery, it's generally not quite as good a user of it as Latias. So when you want a consistent answer to these 2 top-tier threats, you have very solid reasons of using Latias. Everything hamepring Latias at the moment hampers Latios too, you can argue that it makes better use of its coverage, but no coverage is breaking past Metagross, Scarf TTar, or Clefable (though the latter is beaten by CM Latios if not Unaware). And let's not forget Reflect Type, which is heavily underrated on Latias and renders it less vulnerable to some of these checks if running a bulky set (which is admittedly done better by its mega, but mega slots are pretty valuable atm). So yeah, I think if Latias drops, Latios should drop too, both of which I could defenitely see happen at this point.
 
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Lucario for B:

At first I was sceptical abot trying luke out especially since he lost a lot of luster since mega luke's ban. But after trying it out I feel it should move to B. The biggest asset it has is e speed which is the one thing that sets lucario apart from other cleaners,which is the ability to outprioritize talonflame's brave bird. Also fighting/steel is a useful offensive typing and has good neutral coverage. It sucks mega meta is on every offensive team but i'm sure it won't enjoy switching in. It also has the ability to alter it's last moveslot to what threats you need to handle that you're team can't. Mega diancie's an issue? Run bullet punch. Psychic types annoy you? Crunch nails them. Hate pesky fairies? Iron tail. Do you absolutely hate landorus-t with a burning passion? Ice punch it to death. Not only that it also doesn't take up a mega slot and it's a steel type and we all know how good that is.(I know it's frail but steel's resistances on anything even something frail like lucario are really useful).
 
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Seconding Kyu-B for A-.
It can destroy almost every single pivot in the metagame, such as Lando-T, Celebi, Rotom-W, Heatran, Raikou, Hippowdon and Gliscor. Virtually every balance team has to run 2 or more of those, and even stall and HO run at least one to keep momentum. Thanks to Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie, both hazards and fighting types (arguably Kyu-B's greatest weaknesses) are easier to handle in ORAS compared to XY, giving it many opportunities to switch in and wreck havoc. Despite its small movepool it's actually rather unpredictable since its main sets (Sub, LO and Scarf) have vastly different checks and to this day Kyu-B still lacks a true counter.

As for Mega Sableye, since Mega Metagross has not been banned I think it should go back to S-rank. Keep in mind that it was nominated for A+ during the suspect test, when most people assumed Megagross would have been banned. Since this wasn't the case, and Mega Sableye is one of its best checks, not to mention it commands an entire playstyle (stall), it needs to go back to S.
 
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Ok, stuff that I agree with.

Kyurem-Black to A- this thing is underrated as fuck in the current metagame, and it breaks many common balance build in the game - things like gliscor, rotom-w, celebi all fall to it. Did I mention it's also a nice stallbreaker? Because of its ability to run a multitude of sets it is extremely hard to counter, and hitting both sides of the spectrum makes burns from the likes of sableye a little bit more manageable.

Tornadus-Therian to A Torn -t is great in the metagame, various utility options, fantastic speed tier, tied up with Regenerator makes it an extremely underrated threat: you can see it's rise in viability and usage by the new stats, where torn-t rose from around 2% to 5.5%. I'm not the most familiar, but based on games in things like SPL and facing torn-t im inclined to agree with it's rise.

I do sort of support Mega Scizor rising; but things like fast heatran and the both zards are rising in usage. On the other hand it is a great check to metagross, Diancie, Gardevoir, weakened Clefable, Bisharp, so I'm more inclined to say Mega Scizor to A+.
 
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QueenOfHax said:
As for Mega Sableye, since Mega Metagross has not been banned I think it should go back to S-rank. Keep in mind that it was nominated for A+ during the suspect test, when most people assumed Megagross would have been banned. Since this wasn't the case, and Mega Sableye is one of its best checks, not to mention it commands an entire playstyle (stall), it needs to go back to S.
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The discussion of M-Sableye going to A+ wasn't something that fostered during the suspect test, it was an on going discussion for quite awhile before that behind the scenes with the ranking team. For all the reasons that it has dropped was the reasons that were being discussed such as the meta being more prepped for it. Also taking a huge portion of health from Meteor Mash doesn't constitute yourself as a check so M-Sableye really shouldn't be endorsed as a legitimate check to M-Metagross on any given day of the week. It most certainly doesn't command an entire playstyle when plenty of stall teams will incorporate Mega Altaria as one example of a mega commonly found on stall. For the time being it's fine in A+.

Edit: Idk if ben gay is gonna be doing this more in depth later but considering I won't be around for the day due to irl obligations I might as well summarize the message he sent me in terms of some other stuff that we're curious on.

Mega Aerodactyl moving down
Mega Heracross moving down
Diggersby moving down
Alakazam's (Regular) placement
Azelf moving up
Dragalge moving up (jukain's post a couple pages back is a good idea of this)
Serperior moving up
Thundurus-T moving up
Emboar moving up
Amoonguss moving down
Jirachi's placement
Volcarona moving up
Feraligatr's placement
Shuckle's placement
Torn-T moving up
Kyurem-B moving up if you haven't been reading the last 5 pages or so lol
Mega Altaria moving up. This one is pretty controversial and hopefully the thread doesn't get too bogged down by this. It was a bit more clear in a meta without M-Metagross and now it isn't but hasn't really stopped M-Altarias effectiveness. So we're just wondering if this is justified or a bit soon since the meta hasn't exactly adapted to have a clear say on this matter.
 
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I fully support Dragalge moving up. This thing is massively underrated and can put in work against all types of playstyles. It's specs set is a fantastic hole puncher, Toxic spikes give it tons of utility, and it's oft-overlooked bulk lets it check threats such as Mega-Venusaur and Keldeo. Unfortunately the prevalence of Landorus(-T) hurts it, but there are really no switchins bar immunities to this guy. He deserves to move up for sure.
 
I support M-Altaria moving up in S , i know people will disagree with me because Gross is staying but even with Gross , this thing is one of the most versatile mon in the meta , and nothing can switch safely on this (except M-Venu but it's a mega) when you didn't check the set (Scizor ? Maybe fire blast , same for ferro , Clefable ? Hyper voice 2HKO CM max def version and Adamant max att return 2HKO Unaware after SR, Heatran ? Watch out for EQ , Gross hates lost 80% on his life to a +1 EQ or Fire blast...) , this thing can be offensive , defensive , cleric and has one of the best typing in the game , can check the 2 forms of Zard , check Lopunny , Sableye , has Uturn/Voltswitch/Scald/Knock off resists which are the most spammable moves in the meta.
Imo , it's the best DDancer in the tier.
The tri attack roost has one of the best coverage in the tier (only resisted by Talonflame/Zard-Y)
The mono attacking set is really dangerous and can set up on Rotom-W and some other defensive mon such as Slowbro/Alomomola/Sableye/Chesnaught , mon who are really common on Stall.
The special Cleric gives a Team support and offensive/defensive presence.
The bulky set counter huge things such as Lopunny , Kingdra in the rain , ZardX/Y , Dnite , Mega Heracross (who is a pain for stall).

So I support Altaria moving up in S.

Other support :

Heracross moving down
Feraligatr for C+ or C
Dragalge moving up
Disagree with Diggersby move down.
 
May I ask why do you feel Amoonguss deserves to move down? From what I've seen, it's a fantastic pivot, what with being able to switch in to a whole lot of things, Spore and move out relying on Regenerator to keep it healthy. This is just my meager experience, but Amoonguss seems to be pretty underprepared for and once opposing Grasses are out of play, can put at least one opponent out of commission guaranteed.
 
Mega Altaria moving up is a really interesting discussion point. I made this point in my nomination of Mega Scizor to move back up to A+, but versatility is pretty huge especially if each set in the variety of sets is effective. Altaria has it in spades - multiple spreads / options on DD sets, mixed wallbreaker, fully special offensive or heal bell and really there is room for innovation. It is hands down the most versatile mega evolution, seeing use from hyper offense to stall, and being a win condition or a vital part of a support system.

I would personally support a rise to S. It has the ability to set up a Dragon Dance more easily than Zard X or Gyarados thanks to its typing. It turns Keldeo into setup fodder a lot of the time which is a pretty big deal

However I do think it's a good point that perhaps the meta hasn't adapted yet even with the suspect test ending. Metagross is probably the second or third most reliable check to most varieties of Altaria. I would be willing to wait a bit to see how things pan out, but my preliminary opinion is that it should move up.
 
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I have no experience with it, but I think I could see merit for Altaria rising to S-Rank.

The main reason being its versatility not just being decently wide, but also what that versatility serves: Altaria requires scouting before it can be checked/countered. One battle I led with Kyurem-B against Altaria. I stayed in to Sub assuming it to either be a DD set, a bulky set, or at least to be slower than my set was (outspeeding Adamant Drill, not sure how common +speed Alt is) and got OHKO'd behind the sub by Hyper Voice.

Playing against Altaria with most options before its set is scouted is dangerous for almost anything except Balloon Heatran or similarly bulky Fairies. Not to mention Altaria's own bulk, reliable recovery decent coverage for its movepool, and surprising power thanks to Pixilate are assets no matter what set it runs.
 
Earlier, AM mentioned something about MAltaria moving up as a topic. So, here's what I think on the matter.

No, Mega Altaria should not move up. It's a great, versatile pokemon (which is why it's in A+) but isn't quite S rank right now. It's offensive stats are good, as are its's defensive ones. It's speed, however, is quite slow, so unless it's running it's speediest set it can be KOed by Bisharp, mamoswine, and weavile. DD sets are prone to being revenged by bullet punch and ice shard. Another thing to note is it's initial stealth rock weakness and reletively "meh" physical bulk, especially if left uninvested. Lacking a fire type move leaves Megascis to set up on it without breaking a sweat. Lacking EQ, and heatran can come in for a burn or a flash cannon. Bulky cleric sets are good, but can have trouble fitting in on stall teams due to the Msableye taking its place. It faces competition as a DD sweeper from Megazard X, who packs more Power as well as arguably better STABs and coverage, while being completely immune to burns. Special sets are walled by chansey, heatran and Sp. Def. Sylveon. Finally, there are a few fairy types that can tank a hit and deal huge damage back (usually OHKOing after SR) such as Azumarril and sylveon. A few sets lacking Fire Blast can be walled to hell and back by ferrothorn, and the ones lacking EQ are shut down by heatran. Is Mega Altaria good? No, it is great. However, I wouldn't say it's quite on the same level as Mega Metagross. That's just what I think.
 
Thatwackycruton said:
Earlier, AM mentioned something about MAltaria moving up as a topic. So, here's what I think on the matter.

No, Mega Altaria should not move up. It's a great, versatile pokemon (which is why it's in A+) but isn't quite S rank right now. It's offensive stats are good, as are its's defensive ones. It's speed, however, is quite slow, so unless it's running it's speediest set it can be KOed by Bisharp, mamoswine, and weavile. DD sets are prone to being revenged by bullet punch and ice shard. Another thing to note is it's initial stealth rock weakness and reletively "meh" physical bulk, especially if left uninvested. Lacking a fire type move leaves Megascis to set up on it without breaking a sweat. Lacking EQ, and heatran can come in for a burn or a flash cannon. Bulky cleric sets are good, but can have trouble fitting in on stall teams due to the Msableye taking its place. It faces competition as a DD sweeper from Megazard X, who packs more Power as well as arguably better STABs and coverage, while being completely immune to burns. Special sets are walled by chansey, heatran and Sp. Def. Sylveon. Finally, there are a few fairy types that can tank a hit and deal huge damage back (usually OHKOing after SR) such as Azumarril and sylveon. A few sets lacking Fire Blast can be walled to hell and back by ferrothorn, and the ones lacking EQ are shut down by heatran. Is Mega Altaria good? No, it is great. However, I wouldn't say it's quite on the same level as Mega Metagross. That's just what I think.
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Alright a few things i see about this i dont understand. Mostly as your not 100% right on them. You talk about how mega alt gets walled by gross/tran but thats not 100% true. First the mixed set has blast and eq and its alts most common set if im right. Two Mega altaria is not supposed to take on the entire meta and chances are 80% of the time mega alt will carry either fire blast or eq or both as even the cleric sets often pack a fire type move. Two mega altaria has incredible bulk and great amounts of resistances which is why its s rank worthy. Keep in mind a Pokemon does not have to take on the entire meta and thats what teammates are for right? Also i dont understand why you mention how other fairies can take a hit from alt and fire back with super effective stab. Since when is she staying in on a clefable or azumaril in the first place? Correct me if im wrong.

Also first post in the viability list
 
I'd just like to point out that Clefable is generally seen as "bulky" because of its typing moreso than its stats. 95 / 73 / 90 is not that bulky, Altaria's 75 / 110 / 105 physical bulk is definitely better and the secondary dragon typing adds 4 valuable resistances while only adding 2 weaknesses. So yeah its bulk isn't incredible without investment but when it is invested it is quite bulky to take on. Also while it isn't as difficult to stop as Zard X after a DD, it finds more opportunities to get that DD up. The rest of your points are good though, I won't deny that.
 
darkshadowfire said:
Alright a few things i see about this i dont understand. Mostly as your not 100% right on them. You talk about how mega alt gets walled by gross/tran but thats not 100% true. First the mixed set has blast and eq and its alts most common set if im right. Two Mega altaria is not supposed to take on the entire meta and chances are 80% of the time mega alt will carry either fire blast or eq or both as even the cleric sets often pack a fire type move. Two mega altaria has incredible bulk and great amounts of resistances which is why its s rank worthy. Keep in mind a Pokemon does not have to take on the entire meta and thats what teammates are for right? Also i dont understand why you mention how other fairies can take a hit from alt and fire back with super effective stab. Since when is she staying in on a clefable or azumaril in the first place? Correct me if im wrong.

Also first post in the viability list
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Seriously? I mentioned only a million times IF it doesn't have EQ or fire blast it can be countered by those pokemon. IF. Furthermore, if a pokemon deserves to be S rank, they actually have to be damn near close to taking on the whole meta. That's whar makes it S rank. Also, I never mentioned that it gets walled by gross, just the fact that it gets smashed in the face by meteor mash, usually for the OHKO. Once again I will state this. A+ rank is not a bad rank. Furthermore, S rank is where the best of the best go and should be carefully considered before a pokemon rises to there. Also, mega Altaria's coverage moves lack power due to the offensive stats of MAltaria not being all that. Also, air balloon heatran absolutely walls this thing until the ballon gets popped. Did I mention magnet rise klefki? Yeah, sets lacking fire blast are walled to hell and back and back again by it, and can be hit by thunder wave. Overall, MAltaria is a VERY good pokemon, but NOT one worthy of S rank.
 
I'm not seeing how anything has improved for mega altaria since the last push it had for S rank. I'd say it's in a more disadvantaged situation due to the decline of mega sableye and the rise of mega scizor. The lati twins decline means less easy targets to set up on. I'd say keep in A+.. Not much has changed to lessen its effectiveness, but not much has improved its performance either
 
Altaria is without doubt the best Dragon Dancer in the tier imo. I'm not going to go on about it's versatility because everyone's got that one down, but it's another really interesting case. It fits most of the definition of S so well but it doesn't "define the meta" and nobody could really argue otherwise. I do think, however, that the opposition to the movement shouldn't rely on the argument "it gets walled by things" because Altaria is not, and never really was, a Mega Metagross. All set-up sweepers get walled by things, and considering MAlt can cover anything it's team needs covered with it's great offensive options(i.e. you can tailor it to what you want from it), that's not as much of a setback as it's being made out to be.

I'm concerned that people are treating Altaria as if only the offensive sets are worthy of merit and discussion, and that is simply not true. LMay, Bludz and Thatwackycruton did touch upon the more defensively-oriented builds very briefly, but it seems to have stopped there. No real discussion of how effective those sets are yet. Altaria can do pretty much anything you'd ever want from any hybrid of the Dragon and Fairy types really, really well - with this in mind, I personally think we should make sure that all aspects of this mon get discussed before we reach a conclusion, regardless of what build is considered the "best".
 
Thatwackycruton said:
Seriously? I mentioned only a million times IF it doesn't have EQ or fire blast it can be countered by those pokemon. IF. Furthermore, if a pokemon deserves to be S rank, they actually have to be damn near close to taking on the whole meta. That's whar makes it S rank. Also, I never mentioned that it gets walled by gross, just the fact that it gets smashed in the face by meteor mash, usually for the OHKO. Once again I will state this. A+ rank is not a bad rank. Furthermore, S rank is where the best of the best go and should be carefully considered before a pokemon rises to there. Also, mega Altaria's coverage moves lack power due to the offensive stats of MAltaria not being all that. Also, air balloon heatran absolutely walls this thing until the ballon gets popped. Did I mention magnet rise klefki? Yeah, sets lacking fire blast are walled to hell and back and back again by it, and can be hit by thunder wave. Overall, MAltaria is a VERY good pokemon, but NOT one worthy of S rank.
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''If Megagross is not carrying Hammer Arm it can be countered by Steels '', yet the truth is that he will be carrying it almost all the time, so a pokemon like for example Ferrothorn cannot be treated as a counter because of this, the same case can be applied to M-Altaria because a Fire/Earthquake move is a good portion of her sets, so you cannot treat a pokemon as a counter because of that(checks should be a better definition since still the possibility exists).

Megagross actually is not near in taking the whole meta, it loses to Talonflame,Specs Raikou,M-Manectric,Lando-T
, cannot stop a Serperior at +2 or a Lando-I(because the turn you take to switch is they turn they use to boost.), there are other pokemon, but Megagross relies on coming it safely and M-evolving the 1st trun avoiding the most damage possible since he cannot OHKO everything(usually he 2OHKOs, but this becomes a problem with all the faster treats around there), so no, Megagross is not taking the whole meta by itself, but of course is still worthy of the S rank because he only needs to be careful the first turn and coming it safely.

My point is that you not need to be able to take almost the whole meta by yourself to be S rank, that would be broken, not S rank(Greetings to M-Salamence and Greninja).

Even with that said, I am unsure of M-altaria becoming S rank, if Megagross was banned(I know this is not a ''good'' argument, but is what I think) I could see her rising since he is ultra common in the meta, and on top of that even if she is incredible versatile she feels like a ''Jack of All trades master of non'', before scouting her she is a great problem because of its versatility, but after that it is arguably less treatening, is not like Megagross who even after scouting it can still wreck some mons in half because of his power and coverage, the fact that it faces competition from M-CharX and M-Gyara makes me wonder more.
 
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Thatwackycruton said:
Seriously? I mentioned only a million times IF it doesn't have EQ or fire blast it can be countered by those pokemon. IF. Furthermore, if a pokemon deserves to be S rank, they actually have to be damn near close to taking on the whole meta. That's whar makes it S rank. Also, I never mentioned that it gets walled by gross, just the fact that it gets smashed in the face by meteor mash, usually for the OHKO. Once again I will state this. A+ rank is not a bad rank. Furthermore, S rank is where the best of the best go and should be carefully considered before a pokemon rises to there. Also, mega Altaria's coverage moves lack power due to the offensive stats of MAltaria not being all that. Also, air balloon heatran absolutely walls this thing until the ballon gets popped. Did I mention magnet rise klefki? Yeah, sets lacking fire blast are walled to hell and back and back again by it, and can be hit by thunder wave. Overall, MAltaria is a VERY good pokemon, but NOT one worthy of S rank.
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I'm pretty sure only defensive sets don't have EQ and/or Fire Blast. DD always runs EQ unless DDD(Cotton+DD), some even run both Blast and Quake. Special variants also usually always run Fire Blast. If there's a set that doesn't run one of these two, please tell them to me, because they are sooo common. Plus it's not like Metagross can switch in on Altaria, as it gets smacked with an EQ/Fire Blast for a 2HKO, meaning it can't switch in on it again since Megagross has no recovery. And yeah, M-Altaria's offensive stats aren't too good, but its bulk and typing makes up for that. Air Balloon Heatran gets hit on the switch with Return, popping the balloon, then it gets hit with an EQ. Plus Klefki isn't really used atm, not disregarding it, just something you don't see often, thus shouldn't be prepared for as much.

Let's go shuckles said:
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 180-212 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These cals are against bulky mega gyara who at +1 2HKOs mega altaria and the bulky set only 2HKOs mega gyara meaning it can't counter
(0 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 218-258 (65.8 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO bulky altaria damage calcs)
Also, while offensive variants can OHKO, they get 2HKO by +0 ice fang and gyarados has a higher base speed.
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Does Gyarados even run Ice Fang anymore? Crunch hits Dragons and Grass types as hard as you need, plus Gyarados needs to run Jolly so it can outspeed Beedrill at +1.
 
Okay, I think people are overselling MAltaria a tiny bit.

Let me make this clear : I absolutely love Mega-Altaria. I love the sheer variety of its sets, I love the fact that it combines offensive and defensive prowess in a way very few Pokemon can claim to do, I love that fact that it can fit on every archetype imaginable, I love the fact that it can wall pretty much half the metagame, I love the fact that its coverage enables only around 3 things to switch into it safely, I love the fact that its EVs are fully customisable and you than you can do anything you want with them. I love everything about Mega Altaria.

Except for its speed. And I know this has been mentioned before, but MAltaria's base 80 speed is a real problem for it and that's something you just can't ignore. Altaria's low speed often makes it often reliant on prediction to work. It also means it gets pressured relatively easily, especially when running a defensive set. If Altaria doesn't manage to recover up at the right time, it's often as good as dead since it can't really come in anymore. This is especially annoying when stealth rocks wear it down as much as they do due to its lack of Leftovers recovery and pre-mega SR weakness.

Now, Altaria can run DD to fix this problem to some extent. However, that takes a turn so obviously it's not an instant solution. But Altaria's great bulk and typing enbale it to set up pretty easily so imo that's not the main problem with DD sets, but rather, its lack of coverage. Altaria really relies on its coverage to be a threatening offensive presence, and by not running Fire Blast on it, you're making it much more vulnerable to common Pokemon like MMetagross, Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Air Baloon Excadrill. And you can run Special Agility Altaria, which is actually a pretty cool and underrated set, but Mega Altaria isn't Mega Gardevoir, it's doesn't hit extremely hard without a boost, so a bunch of things can take one hit and hit you back in return. You can also run DD+Fire Blast I guess, but the bulk you have to sacrifice is pretty unfortunate for a set up sweeper that relies heavily on its defensive prowess to pull off a sweep.

Finally, let's not forget the fact that, although Altaria is a great offensive and defensive Pokemon, it isn't really both at once. Offensive sets often lack the bulk to take on things it wants to like the Zards, Landorus-T and Gallade, while bulky sets aren't too difficult to switch into and are forced out rather easily.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that, with all its sets combined, Altaria is a massive threat, but when you take the sets individually you notice that they all have a bunch of shortcomings which can be exploited. This sets it apart from the current S ranks, each one of them having one set which defines it, has very few flaws, and is ultimately the set which makes it worthy of S rank (that's GK MMeta, Sub CM Keldeo, and RP Sludge Wave HP Ice Landorus in case you were wondering). It's a very, very good Pokemon, I'd even argue that it's probably the best Pokemon in A+ rank, but S rank is a bit of a stretch.
 
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Eckleburg said:
Hello,

I'd like to nominate Azelf for B-Rank.

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Azelf has one job: Setting up rocks for HO-Teams and increase the offensive pressure. And in fact, it's doing this thing quite good and >95% of the time.

The main lead set in Explosion, Fire Blast, Stealth Rock, Skill Swap/Taunt, combined with its good speed tier and Focus Sash, let it perform its role insanely well. With Skill Swap, Magic Bouncers like M-Sableye and M-Diancie can't do shit against Azelf setting up rocks. Despite that, swapping abilities can be effective in other situations, too. It sounds like a gimmick, but in many situations it's very decent. And if it's too much of a gimmick for you, you can run Taunt, which is equally useful. With its nice speed, you can block other leads setting up rocks very well. And with its nice speed, it's hard to Taunt Azelf, too.

But the most useful thing on Azelf is its strong and fast Explosion. Setting up rocks is one thing, but getting in a favorable Match-Up (after the explosion), make a huge load of damage with Explosion, and block the enemy to spin/defog your Hazards away, is so damn nice. Fire Blast mainly for steel types, and with 60 EVs SpA-Investment a OHKO against Bisharp.

However, Azelf has some noteable flaws, too. Azelf is doing the role of a lead very well, but things like Anti-Lead Fake Out M-Lopunny, Fake Out Weavile, or Fake Out (combined with other Priority-Moves or high speed) in general, can destroy its role completely. A thing that can be annoying too is Scarf Lead TTar. With Sandstorm and Crunch, Azelf can set up Stealth Rocks, but after that, it's dead and can't go with a boom. Same thing for Priority-Leads like Mamoswine or multiple time hitting/Spore Anti-Lead Breloom. Prankster Taunt can be a problem, too. With Taunt from Pokémon like Thundurus-I, it can be very difficult to set up rocks. In the end, setting up rocks is the only reason to use Azelf, and if it can't do that, it's a wasted slot.

But despite all that, you can trust Azelf doing its thing most of the time.

TL;DR: Azelf has one job, and it is very good, if not the best (Faces competition from Pokémon like Garchomp and Mamoswine, which can set up rocks and have a huge offensive presence, too), in this role: Setting up rocks for your HO-Team and increase the offensive pressure. Azelf for B-Rank.
Click to expand...

I nomitated Azelf for B Rank a couple of pages ago (I quoted my post above), and I must say: I stick to this nomination. I mentioned the most important arguments in my post, and nothing changed since then.

Azelf really does its job astoundingly good, and even outside of this single task, i.e. setting up rocks to increase the offensive pressure for your HO-Team - Sure, it may not have the offensive presence like Garchomp or Mamoswine do (don't forget: It's just a nomination for B Rank after all) - it does a pretty good thing with fast and strong Fire Blasts/Explosions / fast Taunts/Skill Swap Shenanigans as a Suicide Lead in general, too.

Azelf for B Rank.
 
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Here's a nomination that I've been waiting to make, but almost forgot about it:
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B+ ---> A-

I think Volcarona should move up to A-. Not many people prepare or think about Volcarona when teambuilding, and end up losing because of it. Volc is often overlooked due to it's 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, but you can pair it up with Pokemon such as Starmie, which has decent synergy with Volcarona, and can spin away hazards, or Mega Diancie, which has Magic Bounce to bounce back hazards. Mega Diancie + Volcarona is a core I've been using with success, but that's a topic for a different day. Volcarona has access to arguably one of the best boosting moves in the game, Quiver Dance, which allows it to rip apart common teambuilds such as Rotom-W + Landorus-T, Slowbro + Ferrothorn, CeleTran loses to HP Ground variants, etc. Volcarona is also a great check to Mega Sableye, being immune to Will-O-Wisp, while being able to boost up along side it. Volcarona also has lots of good options allowing it to set up. Passho Berry allows it to set up on Water-types such as Keldeo, Rotom-W, Manaphy, and Starmie. Lum Berry can be used to stop status attempts, making it very hard to stop a sweep without Azumarill or Talonflame, as typical answers to set up sweepers such as Prankster T-Wave Thundurus / Klefki are just demolished thanks to Lum Berry. Even Sitrus Berry is an option in case your team lacks entry hazard removal (please pack entry hazard removal though). Life Orb allows Volcarona to hit very hard, while Fire Blast hits insanely hard after a boost. Even Fiery Dance can be used thanks to it's decent chance to boost Special Attack, although Fire Blast is generally preferred to hit harder. Volcarona also learns Giga Drain, allowing it to beat many common Pokemon such as Rotom-W and Keldeo.

Overall, Volcarona is really underrated in OU, and I think it should move up to A-.
 
On the topic of serprior moving up, I would have to support it, I have been using teams built for a serpeior core since it came out and i got to say, he fits in very nicely to fire grass water cores, leaf storm nasty plot wrecks stall teams and balance teams. If it wasn't for heatran, i would be looking for serperior in A ranks, but sadly heatran is very common and serperior needs hidden power fire for coverage against stel types like ferrothorn and scizor, as a result serpeior needs to have certain pokemon put out of the way. Thus he requires a good deal of support to function, because there are simply thing's serperior cannot push through, but once these threats are taken care of, serpeior is free to wreak teams with it's insane stab and coverage options.

Sorry fro the lack of detail, on mobile, but I thought i'd get the serpior ball rolling.
 
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