Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[pika pal]

My big problem with Keldeo lies in the fact that he's dependent on Scald and/or Prediction to do his job well with the sets I've played (though I admit to having little experience using or fighting the SubCM set). Keldeo's coverage movepool is pathetically small, compensated for by his high Special Attack... on Super Effective targets. If Keldeo clicks the wrong move, he's hitting a target with a non-STAB Base 60 move in some situation. Dependence on HP for coverage causes an odd situation for Keldeo, since teammates can deal with most of the HP targets (Celebi, Gyarados, Venusaur), but even as defensive as they could be Keldeo hates giving them a free turn (Sub/NastyPass, DD/Sub, Leech Seed/Synthesis respectively) to potentially play around the switch-in. Keldeo's STABs hit hard on neutral targets, but Keldeo NEEDS to make sure he's hitting the target neutrally or super-effective to avoid guzzling momentum on his Choice sets.

As for the SubCM sets, my issue is that Keldeo either can't boost fast enough to beat every Special Attacker, since many outspeed and/or carry Psyshock to hit him super-effectively on his weaker defensive stat, wearing him out before he can boost high enough. I understand SubCM as more a late gamer sweeper, but some of the mons that could take advantage of the SubCM set seems like quite a bit to remove. To name some that come to mind (Keldeo is at 87% at best after Sub and two turns of Leftovers):
(I'll assume these come in on the turn Keldeo Subs, or that they switched in on his first boost, meaning he might get a second one)
+2 252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 201-237 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Burn is 12.5% per turn, so w/out hazards Keldeo would never KO)

232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 330-390 (102.1 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Subbed)
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 338-398 (104.6 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Two CM boosts)

+2 252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 125-147 (42.8 - 50.3%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. +2 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 204-242 (63.1 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 270-320 (83.5 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
192+ Atk Pixilate burned Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 220-261 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Can put a dent even if Keldeo gets the Scald burn on its switch)

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 188-224 (58.2 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Venusaur will heal off the damage from Keldeo's attacks at +1 while breaking Subs)


Now, this is just me thinking of things off the top of my head that beat Keldeo once he's boosted factoring in potential burn, but I don't consider that dependable enough to boost the sets a full Sub-Rank, especially in a gap from A+ to S. Scald only has a 30% chance to burn, and regardless of our bad experiences with the RNGods, that's not a statistically reliable number. Tyranitar isn't considered a counter to Gengar because Focus Blast has a 30% chance to miss, the same way I don't consider Azumarill a less reliable check because Scald has a 30% chance to burn in the two uses to switch in. The odds are a bit shakier considering Keldeo only wants one burn vs T-tar wanting two misses, but regardless, the odds of getting the Scald burn are 51% (0.3 + 0.7*0.3 = 0.3 + 0.21). Keldeo is gambling on a 50-50 to win if it stays in, and the equivalent of a Focus Miss if it retreats on a failure.

Even then, Keldeo still loses to the burned Azu example, meaning he had to leave the opponent can Double Switch
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power burned Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 292-345 (90.4 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Scald is an annoyance to the opponent and a nice fringe benefit to Keldeo, but if that's what's pushing him to S-Rank, I'm really not sold. Counters and Checks are picked without considering Hax, so Keldeo being highly ranked because it has hax that can beat them seems an unfair way to judge his viability. I know having checks and counters are not the only grounds for dropping, but Keldeo has issues with what I'd argue are some of the most important defensive mons in the game (we're discussing Altaria for S right now), being stopped by those as a Wallbreaker or needing them broken down as a Lategame sweeper is a serious issue for him.

A+ rank is still respectable, and Keldeo fits in well enough there for what he does do well. His STABs do achieve decent neutral coverage, and on those neutral targets he hits like a truck from the Special side, which I find are much harder wallbreakers to prepare for. I probably got something wrong on SubCM, so don't hesitate to correct me on that if I misunderstood its use. I just feel like people are overselling Scald a little for Keldeo's viability. He's good, but not the same monster in gen 5 when he was pulling numbers like this. Keldeo's just not something I find myself preparing specifically for, whether it or cores including it, as I do Lando-I or Mega Metagross, or even Zard-X or Altaria in A+.
(252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 207-243 (69.2 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery)

 

[AM]

I'm sorry to bother you with this, but will Mega Gardevoir ever move up to A+? My post (http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-check-post-1886.3526596/page-71#post-6082783) got a decent amount of support, and even though not a lot of discussion happened, it didn't meet any opposition either.

Any status on that? If there's a reason she's still in A, I'd like to hear why! :)

Mega Gardevoir every time it gets brought up for A+ is one of those things that people exaggerate more than they should be if we're talking A+. M-Gardevoir might not have a lot of switch ins from a general stand-point, but M-Gardevoir also doesn't have a lot of opportunities of switching in either, to the point that it becomes a problem against a variety of bulky offense and offensive teams. It's funny that people bring up Mega Scizor as an A+ contender yet also bring up M-Gardevoir as well, not you in particular, but it sort of shows that anything that can wall-break decently is considered some sort of centralizing point that warrants A+ which is definitely not the case, see Char-Y going to A+ which comes up a lot as well and ignores the support it requires as an example. M-Gardevoir also has a fair amount of competition from the other offensive Fairy types we have in the tier such as Mega Diancie and Mega Altaria. M-Gardevoir might have a better immediate presence in stall-breaking but these other two have simple ways of getting around that and much more through the variations in their sets and much more diversity that can be realistically utilized. Yes M-Gardevoir does have competition for the mega slot in this meta-game and that's something that can't be ignored either when there are plenty of other options that can be used to effect the tier in a more consistent manner. You need some support for M-Gardevoir to truly function and it's enough support required that it should be kept at A and not go to A+.

As far as the "argument" of M-Altaria and not knowing its sets, there is primarily 4 sets the Offensive Dragon Dance set, the Defensive Dragon Dance set, Special Attacker, and Support. The theory of not knowing its set is there but it's definitely not to the point where you're screwed from the get go by not knowing a set when most times you can tell by team composition what it is. The necessity to prepare for each set altogether is a different story but let's not kid ourselves in thinking it's that difficult to spot it at times lol.

I also don't agree with dropping Keldeo from S rank but I may or may not make a post at a later time.

 

[Roxachronic]

Except it can't run all it's sets simultaneously and they all have their issues.

DD with EQ and roost gets neutered by burn (meaning it can't check/counter stuff like Keldeo), DDD has no way of dealing with Heatran, Mixed M-Alt is slow and is walled by Talonflame and Zard-Y as well as Zard-X (pre M-Evo), CB Scizor forces out every variant of M-Alt as they'll be OHKO'd (except DDD which is 2HKO'd and can do nothing back).

It's still a great mon and easily one of the best A+ ones but just because it has several different viable sets doesn't mean it should be S Rank (we went over this with Clefable before).

You know that Altaria has Natural Cure pre-evo? , so in essence it can cure its burn, also using a move with a 30% chance to status you as an argument like if it always gonna happen?And even if it happens it still a check, is like Lando-T to Megagross, it can beat it,not always but it does provide a nuissance for him, that is why it is a check.

You talk about biased moments when she is not m-evolved,but don't say the times that actually she will not choose to m-evolve(like against Keldeo if she has the probability of getting burned if she is not carrying HB)

Of course it has checks, even Megagross and Keldeo have them, but what they have in power M-Altaria has in versatility, is not like Megagross who will almost always be running MM/ZH/HA/GK, she has so different AND effective sets that scouting her properly is really difficult.

 

[Karxrida]

You know that Altaria has Natural Cure pre-evo? , so in essence it can cure its burn, also using a move with a 30% chance to status you as an argument like if it always gonna happen?And even if it happens it still a check, is like Lando-T to Megagross, it can beat it,not always but it does provide a nuissance for him, that is why it is a check.

You talk about biased moments when she is not m-evolved,but don't say the times that actually she will not choose to m-evolve(like against Keldeo if she has the probability of getting burned if she is not carrying HB)

Of course it has checks, even Megagross and Keldeo have them, but what they have in power M-Altaria has in versatility, is not like Megagross who will almost always be running MM/ZH/HA/GK, she has so different AND effective sets that scouting her properly is really difficult.

To use Natural Cure you can't Mega Evolve and are forced to switch out, which can be really annoying (and even detrimental) if Rocks are still up or you wanted to use Altaria to switch into Lati@s later in the match.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

You literally said "And Zard counters if it doesn't Mega Evolve, *Facepalm*
Aha, but then Maltaria runs Refresh and now you're dead. It's not an argument lol

I said walls, not counters and the mega evo obviously referred to zardX as zardY has no reason not to mega...


Refresh or Heal Bell doesn't matter, as if they're ran alongside DD that leaves no coverage moves and if they're ran on the special/mixed set it also doesn't matter as that set is walled by ZardY and (pre mega) Zard X.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I said walls, not counters and the mega evo obviously referred to zardX as zardY has no reason not to mega...


Refresh or Heal Bell doesn't matter, as if they're ran alongside DD that leaves no coverage moves and if they're ran on the special/mixed set it also doesn't matter as that set is walled by ZardY and (pre mega) Zard X.

You act as if Mega Altaria only runs Return as an attack

 

[quagback2qc]

You act as if Mega Altaria only runs Return as an attack

He's right actually. The set with with Return/Hyper Voice, EQ, and Fire blast is walled by both the Zards.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I said walls, not counters and the mega evo obviously referred to zardX as zardY has no reason not to mega...


Refresh or Heal Bell doesn't matter, as if they're ran alongside DD that leaves no coverage moves and if they're ran on the special/mixed set it also doesn't matter as that set is walled by ZardY and (pre mega) Zard X.

I don't think you understand, you don't know what set he's running while at the same thing he doesn't know your set. That's why Heatran or Skamory aren't counters, they're both beaten by their respective coverage option, thus: checks.

 

[give me an A]

First post :).

Mega Aeradactoyl should drop to B+
Mega Aeradactoyl has always been a dangerous pokemon for offensive teams to face. Its excellent speed tier and good coverage means that it can revenge kill most pokemon on hyper offensive builds. However, hyper offensive is no longer as prominent or dominant as was in late XY or early ORAS. This is largely due to the significant increase of balance builds, which tend to have a field day with mega aeradactoyl. Stall teams also have no worries when dealing with mega aeradactoyl, particularly if it lacks taunt. Combined with the fact that it is somewhat weak on lots of its attacks and is not particularly bulky make mega aeradactoyl far less prominent then it was in the early stages of ORAS. Either that or Mega Alakazam should move up, its certainly better then mega aeradactoyl.
Mega Heracross should drop to B+
This is long overdue. The game is simply much too fast paced for mega heracross. New mega's such as Mega Metagross, Mega Gallade, Mega Altaria and Mega Diancie, all eat Mega Heracross for breakfast, while older threats such as gliscor, talonflame, mega pinsir and mega gardevoir all continue to pester the big bug. To be fair, mega heracross can either KO, or do severe amounts damage to these annoyances if they switch in, but normally, heracross will simply be forced out before it can do its damage. Even as a wallbreaker, I would personally go with Mega Gardevoir, which can KO sableye, force a lot of switches, stall break with taunt or wear down walls with Will-O-Wisp.
Diggersby should drop to B+
Similarly to before, the games to fast paced. While being able to hit extremely hard, diggersby is easy to revenge kill, quite easy to wall (dependent on moveset) and either struggles to set up or is forced to put itself constantly in unfavourable situations that can be easily exploited by a number of common pokemon. Overall, diggersby is more comparable to Tentacruel, Terrakion and Mega Latias then Gyarados, Mamoswine and Raikou, and it is in no way better or more effective then mega alakazam, kingdra, or klefki (which all may have the potential to make A-).
Alakazam should rise to C
Its a pretty effective revenge killer, and can be a nuisance for frailer teams due to its high speed and exceptional coverage. It even has some utility in thunder wave and taunt, and is guaranteed to survive a hit, unless it hits multiple times. You should also note that alakazam can actually KO lots of these pokemon before they get a chance to attack, such as heracross with psychic/psyshock or mamoswine with icicle spear.
Azelf should rise to B
Extremely useful suicide lead for offensive teams, and can even skill swap magic bouncers to become a nuisance. It outspeeds garchomp, which is a very useful trait for a stealth rock lead, and has some offensive presence, using fire blast to nail ferrothorn, scizor and skarmory, or ice beam to hit launders, gliscor and garchomp. B- is really underselling it.
Dragalge should rise to B
A common miss-conseption about this pokemon is that its role is to simply hit things hard with specs. If this were true, it would be no higher then C+, as dragalge is very slow, and quite easy to take advantage of once its attacks, due to both its stabs having a common immunity. What I think makes dragalge B rank worthy is its utility. If you scroll through the viability rankings, you shall notice that dragalge is one of the few pokemon that has toxic spikes in its arsenal. Both scolipede and smeargle are solely used as baton passers, as entry hazard leads are stopped cold be magic bouncers (I guess offensive scolipede could work...maybe...) making tentacruel the only other toxic spikes setter in the tier. I know toxic spikes is not particularly effective, since steels, flyings and poisons all are completely uneffected, but they can be a serious pain it the ass to bulk teams, as they simply are poisned on a switch. As mentioned before, dragalge also has offensive presence, being able to do more damage then tentacruel, as well as having a relativley wide movepool to make use of. Dragalge also has decent special defence, so it can take weaker special hits. It can switch into a number of common stall mons a retaliate with serious damage, which give it an edge over tentacruel. It can even attempt to burn switch ins with scald, although focus blast or hp fire is generally better for hitting ferrothorn, scizor, metagross and skarmory.
Serperior should rise to B
B+ is kind of overselling it because it is stopped cold by some popular stuff, but B- is certainly underselling it because it simply has the potential to cause so much havoc. It can really be a pain for stall teams, being able to KO unaware clefable with two leaf storms, and is even fast enough to make use of taunt and glare. It sits a nice speed tier, being able to outspeed latios, latias, mega gallade, gengar, mega metagross and mega diancie. It is plagued with horrid offensive typing, a barren movepool, and low pp on its most spammable attack, but this is not enough to prevent a promotion to B.

I am so sorry, I'll post again later, but I am just so tired right now and I want to take a nap...

 

[Invok3r]

He's right actually. The set with with Return/Hyper Voice, EQ, and Fire blast is walled by both the Zards.

Actually eq altaria isnt walled by both zards. Against zardy, you stall out sun turns with roost, then spam hyper voice and try to hit an eq on his roost. EQ Altaria also 2hkos zard x, so i dont quite understand why you said altaria is walled by both zards.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

EQ Altaria also 2hkos zard x, so i dont quite understand why you said altaria is walled by both zards.

Mainly because the Charizard X player could just delay Mega evolving so that they can better take on Mega Altaria, although then Mega Altaria just beats it in the same way as Charizard Y, only easier because lol what's an un-Mega'd Charizard X doing to a Mega Altaria?

I'm so gonna start running Iron Tail Charizard X.

 

[tigers jaw]

He's right actually. The set with with Return/Hyper Voice, EQ, and Fire blast is walled by both the Zards.

Hyper Voice isn't exactly "walled" by ZardX at all lol, it drops after the recoil from Flare Blitz most of the time. If you're seriously scared of DD ZardX, run Dragon Pulse/Hyper Voice/Heal Bell/Roost on a defensive set, as opposed to Hyper Voice/EQ or Flamethrower/Heal Bell/Roost. Dragon Pulse also does a decent amount of damage to ZardY.

I think people are getting confused between sets. Defensive Heal bell runs a 2 attack (usually) special set with heavy defensive investment, whereas 3 attacks offensive runs more offensive investment, and no Heal Bell. It isn't hard to see that those who are claiming MAlt is a ZardY switch in are referring to the defensive set, as any offensive set gets dropped by two Fire Blasts.

 

[ChinChinLives]

Over the talk of Mega Houndoom, I actually support the raise just because nearly all of his checks/counters are stopped by Keldeo. The point of that reasoning is that Keldeo is a ludicrously high risk-low reward 'mon that can easily be slapped on to nearly all teams. Raise the doge.

 

[Alfalfa]

Over the talk of Mega Houndoom, I actually support the raise just because nearly all of his checks/counters are stopped by Keldeo. The point of that reasoning is that Keldeo is a ludicrously high risk-low reward 'mon that can easily be slapped on to nearly all teams. Raise the doge.

That alone is not a strong reason to give it a raise. Houndoom could still have issues with bulk, being revenged killed, and everything else that you do not mention. Sure, team support is always necessary, but raising something based on one thing alone is not an objective reason towards giving something a raise in ranking.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

You know, usually I don't reply to terrible, poorly-worded and thought-out posts, but seeing as you were obviously mocking me so maturely I'll give it a go.

Mixed sets aren't used for beating offence, obviously. They're use for breaking common balance cores such as Ferro/Tran/Slowbro etc. You're interpreting the 3 attacks Roost sets poorly if you think that lacking Heal Bell and not having five move slots is a bad thing. Tip: it isn't. Look at it in a sense that Heal Bell is an option as long as you are running one of MAlt's other sets, which serves a completely different role than 3 attacks. Why on earth should I care about not having Heal Bell if I'm using it as an offensive rather than defensive Pokémon?

Then we come to your second point about the Pokémon having a bad matchup vs. offence, yet you mentioned the DD set earlier? What? Really, what do you think the point of boosting both Attack and Speed is? DD isn't even underwhelming, lol, it's agreed to be one of the best, if not the best Dragon Dancer in the tier, and is incredibly hard to reliably revenge kill outside of CB Scizor. It sets up on loads of stuff thanks to the big bulk, great typing, and hits as hard as hell thanks to Pixilate.

As for the "muh Steels :(", check my last post over again.

Tl;dr I'm not using Mixed Roost to beat Offence, just as I'm not using DD to beat Balance.

Seeing as this post got Sixteen likes, my opinion should be invalid by now, but I cant back down.

First off, I said its mixed set was bad, i didnt say anything about its DD set being underwhelming. When i heard people were saying how its Mixed set is the reason its being promoted to S, I giggled. It's DD set is far more superior.

That being said, you just said Mixed sets are used for beating offense, but then you point out that Heal Bell isnt used on Offensive Mixed sets. If you dont run if

4 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 138-163 (44.9 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO

-1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 105-124 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- 71.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

See, it only sets up on its true counters. Nothing else will let it set up more than twice, not even once. Perhaps it is one of, if not the best DDancer, but its definetley not S.

All of its sets have glaring flaws. If you read my last post (which is why my post that you quoted was so poor because I didnt think i had to repeat my words) I stated those flaws. But if something is that weak to one side and good against another, thats a problem. And there is at least 1-2 steels on every team, and Clefable is quite common. Now, lets read S rank's desc quickly, shall we:

Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame.

Pinnacle? He doesn't really centralize shit. I almost never think of MAlt when I'm making a team, because every team I make already has a check to it.

These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well.

I can't disagree with that. But, I can also say that with MZard X, Heatran, even Clefable.

Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted.

Not at all. MAlt is nearly completely matchup based. If it's running Mixed and its facing HO, its not gonna do well, and vise versa. Otherwise, its usually low risk-high reward.

Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

As I said before, MAlt is matchup based and it really only shines if its facing the right playstyle. Being slow at 80 Spe and still being outsped by scarfers at +1, it does have trouble. Even with a phenomenal offensive and defensive typing, people over hype this thing. By no doubt is it amazing, but its got more flaws then it needs. Not to mention status really cripples it from even functioning if it opts out of Heal Bell. He sure as hell doesn't define the metagame.

If you really want me to go to bare bottoms about MAlt, its pros and cons, I will. You have to understand that S rank is for the best of the best. Not for the really good. A+ is a more than deserved rank for MAlt, and he is with more flaws than any of the S ranks currently.

Also, who said you needed prio to revenge kill DD alt?

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 458-542 (120.2 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 348-410 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to

>Altaria hits harder than Azu

Azu's best set (iirc) is its CB set.

Also, dont think I disrespect your opinion. MAlt is a good mon, but i think A+ is good for it. The perfect spot for it, in fact. S rank is pushing it. In fact, I value everyones opinion (albeit mocking them, but thats human nature) and its not like A+ rank is a horrible rank. MDiancie, Lando T, Heatran, much more reside. It's like the princes of OU.

Sorry this post is so long.

 

[pika pal]

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 458-542 (120.2 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 348-410 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to

>Altaria hits harder than Azu

Azu's best set (iirc) is its CB set.

Also, dont think I disrespect your opinion. MAlt is a good mon, but i think A+ is good for it. The perfect spot for it, in fact. S rank is pushing it. In fact, I value everyones opinion (albeit mocking them, but thats human nature) and its not like A+ rank is a horrible rank. MDiancie, Lando T, Heatran, much more reside. It's like the princes of OU.

Sorry this post is so long.

Your comparison is faulty. Unless they specified CB, Azumarill's other sets are common enough that you can't assume that will be it. Either Altaria needs to simulate the same boost (+1), or Azu doesn't hold an item.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 304-358 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 178-211 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, you should probably use neutral calcs when comparing power, since the multiplier from being super-effective inflates the difference due to inherent strength.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Your comparison is faulty. Unless they specified CB, Azumarill's other sets are common enough that you can't assume that will be it. Either Altaria needs to simulate the same boost (+1), or Azu doesn't hold an item.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 304-358 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 178-211 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, you should probably use neutral calcs when comparing power, since the multiplier from being super-effective inflates the difference due to inherent strength.

Lol, of course Altaria with a 1.5x boost is gonna be stronger than a non mega. Thats like comparing a Shuckle to a +2 MDos: It wont work.

Also, BandZu is usually the main thing; BD and AV are the only things it would rather run, and both arent as good. Usually when you are selling something, you show the best features of it, right? I was only doing the the same thing with Azu.

192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 174-205 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 229-271 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[ChinChinLives]

Well isn't the definition of B-rank Mons that need team support to function? It literally needs Raikou and Keldeo and your set. Doom's role is to weaken teams so it can clean late game. Revenge killers like flame and starmie (if it wins the tie) are beat by kou, Scarf tar, scarf drill and lopunny are beat by Scarf keldeo, etc.

 

[pika pal]

Lol, of course Altaria with a 1.5x boost is gonna be stronger than a non mega. Thats like comparing a Shuckle to a +2 MDos: It wont work.

Also, BandZu is usually the main thing; BD and AV are the only things it would rather run, and both arent as good. Usually when you are selling something, you show the best features of it, right? I was only doing the the same thing with Azu.

Whether or not BD and AV are better is subjective, but the fact is that 2/3 Azumarill sets don't have a boosting item, and they're more than viable enough that you can assume CB is not the default.

Also, a Choice Band is a 1.5x boost, hence why I showed comparisons for Altaria at +1 vs CB Azumarill (essentially +1) and for them both itemless at +0. When both were operating at the same effective level of Boosting, Altaria clearly outdamaged (without full investment to boot). Your Gyarados and Shuckle comparison (whether a joke or to point out some fault in my argument) falls flat because those two would not even remotely be used for such a purpose. Azumarill and Altaria can overlap in the roles of Physical Fairy, or to be broad they could overlap as Wallbreakers (probably more Altaria's special set).
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 186-220 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 207-244 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Still stronger.

And yeah, Altaria's stronger than Azumarill, a non-Mega. Worthless comparison. Except, you know, Azumarill has Huge Power, the ability that makes it one of the strongest effective attackers in the game (Huge Power on Adamant 252 is the equivalent of Positive Base 150 offense). But that's not an important scale of power or anything, right?

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Whether or not BD and AV are better is subjective, but the fact is that 2/3 Azumarill sets don't have a boosting item, and they're more than viable enough that you can assume CB is not the default.

Also, a Choice Band is a 1.5x boost, hence why I showed comparisons for Altaria at +1 vs CB Azumarill (essentially +1) and for them both itemless at +0. When both were operating at the same effective level of Boosting, Altaria clearly outdamaged (without full investment to boot). Your Gyarados and Shuckle comparison (whether a joke or to point out some fault in my argument) falls flat because those two would not even remotely be used for such a purpose. Azumarill and Altaria can overlap in the roles of Physical Fairy, or to be broad they could overlap as Wallbreakers (probably more Altaria's special set).
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 186-220 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 207-244 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Still stronger.

And yeah, Altaria's stronger than Azumarill, a non-Mega. Worthless comparison. Except, you know, Azumarill has Huge Power, the ability that makes it one of the strongest effective attackers in the game (Huge Power on Adamant 252 is the equivalent of Positive Base 150 offense). But that's not an important scale of power or anything, right?

Just because 2/3 sets are not CB does not mean by any chance that those two sets are used more than CB.

The point is is that they are both in the battlefield, no boost, everything default. You dont come in with a +1 Boost with MAlt, so why bother? You compare them as raw, not with boosts or anything. So what if its CB?

I did the Shuckle to MGyara comparison because i was comparing power, which is what you were doing. While not as accurate, it still has the basis.
MAlt and Azu are both Physical Attackers and Fairy types. Everything else is not similar. Azu is usually Banded, and MAlt runs DD and Mixed sets. Do you see any DD/Mixed Azus out there? I dont, honestly.

I think you are forgetting that MAlt has Pixilate, that multiplies all Normal type moves to 1.3x and makes them Fairy type. You understand thats STABx1.3. With more attack, i wouldnt expect it to hit harder honestly. Plus its stabs are usually stronger. Honestly im not saying MAlt is weak, but people saying that Azu is weaker is laughable.

 

[Always!]

Lol, of course Altaria with a 1.5x boost is gonna be stronger than a non mega. Thats like comparing a Shuckle to a +2 MDos: It wont work.

Also, BandZu is usually the main thing; BD and AV are the only things it would rather run, and both arent as good. Usually when you are selling something, you show the best features of it, right? I was only doing the the same thing with Azu.

192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 174-205 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 229-271 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You do understand the fallacy of using a boosted Pokemon as opposed to an unboosted one, correct?

If so, why did you make a faulty comparison, then acknowledge it afterwards, and still expect that point to stand? I legitimately don't get it. Just because you're showcasing the best of a Pokemon doesn't allow you the right to make a comparison that makes no sense.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

You do understand the fallacy of using a boosted Pokemon as opposed to an unboosted one, correct?

If so, why did you make a faulty comparison, then acknowledge it afterwards, and still expect that point to stand? I legitimately don't get it. Just because you're showcasing the best of a Pokemon doesn't allow you the right to make a comparison that makes no sense.

Well, I actually dont. Its unfair to put a +1 on a pokemon if the other does not. If you're expecting a boosted pokemon to not be stronger than an unboosted one, then you're a lost soul. Thats my opinion.

AM Edit: Removed strawpoll.

I just want to see opinions on this, too. It seems like people want him to go for S rank. I'm just curious.

 

[Invok3r]

Lol, of course Altaria with a 1.5x boost is gonna be stronger than a non mega. Thats like comparing a Shuckle to a +2 MDos: It wont work.

Also, BandZu is usually the main thing; BD and AV are the only things it would rather run, and both arent as good. Usually when you are selling something, you show the best features of it, right? I was only doing the the same thing with Azu.

192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 174-205 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 229-271 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

"Also, BandZu is usually the main thing" Plz don't make posts on viability ranking without doing ur research brah. Here is what I found on the usage stats of ou.

Items | | Sitrus Berry 42.060% | | Choice Band 38.148% | | Assault Vest 16.667% | | Other 3.125%

As you can see, choice band isn't the most common item on azumarill. Don't go around comparing cb azu to m-alt with false information.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

"Also, BandZu is usually the main thing" Plz don't make posts on viability ranking without doing ur research brah. Here is what I found on the usage stats of ou.

Items | | Sitrus Berry 42.060% | | Choice Band 38.148% | | Assault Vest 16.667% | | Other 3.125%

As you can see, choice band isn't the most common item on azumarill. Don't go around comparing cb azu to m-alt with false information.

Wait what the heck? Other 3%, what else does Azumarill run? Mega Altaria is stronger than Azumarill, though Azumarill has an equally good typing, priority, belly drum ect ect, Azumarill isn't comparable to Maltaria as they preform different roles

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

"Also, BandZu is usually the main thing" Plz don't make posts on viability ranking without doing ur research brah. Here is what I found on the usage stats of ou.

Items | | Sitrus Berry 42.060% | | Choice Band 38.148% | | Assault Vest 16.667% | | Other 3.125%

As you can see, choice band isn't the most common item on azumarill. Don't go around comparing cb azu to m-alt with false information.

Alright, alright. You got me.

I guess it being most used was wrong on my part, but we can all agree that CB is probably the best in terms of viability. However, may I ask where this usage calc was from? I'm curious.

I never knew how to see the usages of items and moves.