Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[Synchronation]

What?

A-? Seriously, people at Smogon love to overestimate things, but this is too much.

Seeing as the thing probably wont go higher than UU, I cant see how this guy is a threat.

A shit movepool which suffers a decent 4MSS clause and a good amount of checks (MVenu, Skarm (roar, Counter, etc.) Clefable, Quag, GK MMeta, Mew (if not running crunch) etc. he isnt that amazing. I understand he looks good on paper, but you think its like a god.

If it runs Crunch, then it cant take on Priority users and is weak to Azu, Keldeo,Bulky MZor With Superpower/Knock Off, MAlt, and Skarmory again.

If it runs Aqua Jet, its coverage is laughable and is checked/countered by basically every grass and water type and the pokemon listed above.

If it runs Ice Fang, read above except change Grass to Water types.

Besides, No recovery sucks.

It has a lot of competition against other DDers in the way of it. I'd rather use MDos/CharX/MAlt due to their bulk, coverage, and recovery options. If i wanted to put it somewhere, B seems good for it.

Where should I start...

1. Feraligatr and Gyarados share the same amount of checks. Mega-Gyarados can beat Skarm easier with Taunt and Venu with Ice Fang but that's why it is A+. Clefable is 2HKO if you run adamant. MegaMeta gets outsped (after a boost) and KOed by Crunch.
2. With Crunch it can't take priority users? First Crunch is standard and should ALWAYS be used, second it cannot take on Azumarill anyways, Altaria gets destroyed by Ice Punch and other checks that can survive a boosted attack have to be a bit weakened. That is normal for every set up Pokemon. Besides, Gyarados faces the same problem.
3. Water + Dark is not a laughable coverage. Taunt + DD/Sub Mega-Gyarados can tell you that.
4. It should NEVER use Ice Fang.
5. A lategame-sweeper doesn't need recovery. Otherwise Metagross wouldn't be in S.
6. I don't like to repeat myself, but all the Pokemon you mentioned are megas.

I know it was bold from me to nominate it to A-, but besides "it shouldn't start there" I didn't read many reasons why it should be lower than Gyarados. I know it can set up easier but Feraligatr on the other hand has more power and other trade-offs. Is this really the only reason? If yes, I am not convinced yet.

 

[Albacore]

Gyarados should be ranked higher than Feraligatr simply because it has a much easier time actually setting up. Gyarados, thanks to its great defensive typing, solid bulk, and Intimidate, can set up on the likes Landorus, Keldeo, Scarf Landorus-T locked into Earthquake, Lopunny, and Scizor. Feraligatr can't really set up against any of these besides I guess Scizor, and just has a much harder time fining setup opportunities in general. Feraligatr also suffers from slight 4MSS, since it wants to run Crunch, Ice Punch and Superpower all in the same set, unlike Gyarados who easily has enough space to run Substitute to dodge status. Feraligatr is just not as consistent a sweeper or as useful in general as Gyarados and should not share the same rank.

Regarding Lanturn, what exactly does what it does better? Hippowdon? Gastrodon maybe? Even though neither of these have access to slow pivoting? Lanturn may be mediocre, but nothing can replicate what it does which is why it's being suggested for a rank in the first place. I don't mind if you call it bad, but don't call it outclassed at its job because that's just not true.

I could see Jirachi in A rank thanks to its status as an universal fairykiller which makes it very easy to slap on teams, the SubToxic set being particularly good from my experience. However, I feel like it's gotten a bit worse recently, what with the huge rise in usage of Gliscor, Landorus-I, and YZard, and with Latis becoming less prominent recently due to the omnipresence of MMetagross (though Fairies are still very popular). Scarf TTar is also a bit annoying for it. This really could go either way.

 

[astroboy]

don't really care about gatr's placement, but a- seems way too high for a mon who faces large competition with a mega that's usually better for it. amoonguss is a great mon in ou, but it's largely overshadowed by venusaur due to it's better bulk and offensive presence. this leaves amoonguss only to teams that you'd like to use venu in but already have a mega. the general consensus iirc is that amoonguss is fine in the b ranks. this is kind of in the spot gatr's in imo. because while gyara is better, gatr has far less opportunity cost in the form of a mega to come along with it. although, gatr is first and foremost a wallbreaker, whereas gyara is a stallbreaker. while they're both water type dragon dance users, gyarados finds far easier times to set up due to its pre-mega ability, great coverage, ability to sub/taunt to alleviate its worried about status, and dual typing that lets you decide when or even if you need to mega evolve. gatr also has way harder times against increasingly popular mons, such as unaware clef or skarm. i can't say i agree with gatr going anywhere above b due to being a fairly slow wallbreaker that's easily worn down, having hard times trying to set up, and its competition as a dd user. also its literally walled by every water not named empoleon.

 

[TURBODERP]

Gonna echo the "keep Lanturn ranked" sentiment. Lanturn performs excellently against Raikou, Magnezone, Mega Man, and Rotom-W, robbing them of momentum by either healing off of them or forcing a double-switch (which you can predict too). Plus, having Heal Bell on a bulky pivot like Lanturn is great and IMO what makes it deserving of ranking (a pretty unique combo there).

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Where should I start...

1. Feraligatr and Gyarados share the same amount of checks. Mega-Gyarados can beat Skarm easier with Taunt and Venu with Ice Fang but that's why it is A+. Clefable is 2HKO if you run adamant. MegaMeta gets outsped (after a boost) and KOed by Crunch.
2. With Crunch it can't take priority users? First Crunch is standard and should ALWAYS be used, second it cannot take on Azumarill anyways, Altaria gets destroyed by Ice Punch and other checks that can survive a boosted attack have to be a bit weakened. That is normal for every set up Pokemon. Besides, Gyarados faces the same problem.
3. Water + Dark is not a laughable coverage. Taunt + DD/Sub Mega-Gyarados can tell you that.
4. It should NEVER use Ice Fang.
5. A lategame-sweeper doesn't need recovery. Otherwise Metagross wouldn't be in S.
6. I don't like to repeat myself, but all the Pokemon you mentioned are megas.

I know it was bold from me to nominate it to A-, but besides "it shouldn't start there" I didn't read many reasons why it should be lower than Gyarados. I know it can set up easier but Feraligatr on the other hand has more power and other trade-offs. Is this really the only reason? If yes, I am not convinced yet.

They do. I definetly agree.

MDos is not staying into MSaur at any chance. The problem with Gatr is that it cant Taunt (it cant fit taunt if it had it anyways) It cant Intimidate, it cant fit room for Sub, and it wishes to have 1.5x boosted Crunch. Dos also can take on all playstyles well due to Sub/Taunt and its offensive presence. Gatr cant.

If you run Adamant you get a very noticeable speed drop.

The main problem i stress with Feraligatr is that it wants this and wants that.

If you run Ice Punch and Crunch, Ferro is a huge problem. Skarm is a huge problem. Balance in general is a huge problem. Water and Dark have little connection whatsoever, they just hit a few more things. Good coverage would include Dark and Psychic due to their good synergy.

Feraligatr isnt really splashable and just doesn't find a lot of room to DD. It has trouble against all playstyles, has common checks, etc.

Dude, just because they are megas dont mean shit. Most non mega DDancers arent worth the time. The best DD'ers are Megas.

But, there seems to be a really big misconseption with Megas. Since they are megas, they are stronger than Non-megas, right? No. Non megas can run items to aid them, they have different abilities to aid them in battle, and more. Putting Gatr to A- because you say "its just as good as MDos" (which it isnt even close to) is laughable at most.

 

[Synchronation]

They do. I definetly agree.

MDos is not staying into MSaur at any chance. The problem with Gatr is that it cant Taunt (it cant fit taunt if it had it anyways) It cant Intimidate, it cant fit room for Sub, and it wishes to have 1.5x boosted Crunch. Dos also can take on all playstyles well due to Sub/Taunt and its offensive presence. Gatr cant.

If you run Adamant you get a very noticeable speed drop.

The main problem i stress with Feraligatr is that it wants this and wants that.

If you run Ice Punch and Crunch, Ferro is a huge problem. Skarm is a huge problem. Balance in general is a huge problem. Water and Dark have little connection whatsoever, they just hit a few more things. Good coverage would include Dark and Psychic due to their good synergy.

Feraligatr isnt really splashable and just doesn't find a lot of room to DD. It has trouble against all playstyles, has common checks, etc.

Dude, just because they are megas dont mean shit. Most non mega DDancers arent worth the time. The best DD'ers are Megas.

But, there seems to be a really big misconseption with Megas. Since they are megas, they are stronger than Non-megas, right? No. Non megas can run items to aid them, they have different abilities to aid them in battle, and more. Putting Gatr to A- because you say "its just as good as MDos" (which it isnt even close to) is laughable at most.

You should really read carefully and think more about what you write.
Mega-Gyarados actually BEATS Venusaur because of Mold Breaker + Ice Fang. Second, I compare it to regular Gyarados not Mega.
In addition, I also said that Gyarados is way better against stall and defensive mons because of Taunt. If it doesn't run Taunt, all the checks you mentioned are the same for Gyarados. Besides, it does have room for sub if you don't want/need coverage. Skarm is also 2HKOed after a DD.
Water + Dark is good coverage. Not the best, but good. If you want to name a really great coverage, Ghost/Dark and Fighting are way better since all Dark-types are walling Dark-Psychic.
Megas are better, I know. It is not moving up to A+ and I don't see it there anyways.
Most non-mega DDancers are not worth it because they do nothing what the megas not already do. This does not apply to Feraligatr, read the original post of him from me again. He has abilities which Gyarados wish it would have, but sadly it has moves that are most of the time more useful (Taunt and Intimidate especially).

Again, I am NOT saying it is as good as Mega-Gyarados, I was comparing it more to the regular one.
Anyways this is the last time I am responding to something like this. Albacore made some good points why it should be ranked lower, so I agree with it being in B+.

 

[SilverForUbers]

On the topic of Mega Absol, I agree that it should at least go up to C+. 6th gen gave it a legal set with Knock Off and Play Rough, which could help a lot in beating things like Mega Altaria. Unfortunately, Mega Absol is outclassed by many megas but it still has a niche as being an efficient wallbreaker. Access to Knock Off, Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Superpower, and Play Rough give it almost amazing neutral coverage. Beating many walls that might switch in, like Heatran, Chansey, Scizor, and Skarmory. Play Rough can also surprise Fighting Types that might want to switch into it. But while Absol can surprise many checks, it also gets walled by many Pokemon like Clefable, and fairies in general.

So to wrap it up, Mega Absol has a small niche that might make it C+ worthy, but I don't think he'll do very good passed that.

 

[Kurona]

On the topic of Mega Absol, I agree that it should at least go up to C+. 6th gen gave it a legal set with Knock Off and Play Rough, which could help a lot in beating things like Mega Altaria. Unfortunately, Mega Absol is outclassed by many megas but it still has a niche as being an efficient wallbreaker. Access to Knock Off, Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Superpower, and Play Rough give it almost amazing neutral coverage. Beating many walls that might switch in, like Heatran, Chansey, Scizor, and Skarmory. Play Rough can also surprise Fighting Types that might want to switch into it. But while Absol can surprise many checks, it also gets walled by many Pokemon like Clefable, and fairies in general.

So to wrap it up, Mega Absol has a small niche that might make it C+ worthy, but I don't think he'll do very good passed that.

Again, Mega Absol is not as good as it's being made out to be here. Nothing you've said brings anything new to the table that we already know -- it's still very matchup-reliant, it's still mediocre, it still suffers massively from opportunity cost, it's still very difficult to fit onto teams and if it doesn't KO something then it's dead. There are much better dark-types, sweepers and cleaners that I'd rather use and I honestly don't see why it hasn't actually dropped to C- by now. It's nowhere near the level of consistency or reliability that the 'mon in C+ have and you're really overselling it's traits with vague statements that have no actual grounding.

 

[Celticpride]

C+ -> B-

I was initially rather skeptical of Mega Pidgeot's effectiveness in OU, mostly due to its lacking speed tier (comparative to the base 135+ crowd), common checks in Rotom and Heatran, and general ineffectiveness against more bulky and defensive teams. However, the recent effectiveness of the stallbreaking set deserves a rise. For the uninformed, Pidgeot can run a set of Hurricane / Work Up / Refresh / Roost to give stall and semistall and even balanced a great deal of trouble. Just for some examples:

+3 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 168-198 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+5 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 330-388 (51.4 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I mean, +3 and +5 looks like I'm trying to push it a little, but ease at which it boosts is incredible. What exactly is Chansey going to do to a Pidgeot backed by Roost and Refresh support? Heatran admittely can Roar and Taunt it, but Roar only delays the problem temporarily. When you throw in mono-Hurricane having a small degree of effectiveness against offense and that offense isn't its intended match-up, you can really get some mileage out of this set. It really only needs an average amount of support to be effective, more similar to Sharpedo or Houndoom than the other C+ Megas. Heatran switch-in, Rotom-W check, and maybe a Scarf TTar or Diancie check. That's not a whole lot of terribly specific support especially when you consider most of those are among the most common mons in OU. Deserves a rise to B- on the merits of the stallbreaking set imo.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

You should really read carefully and think more about what you write.
Mega-Gyarados actually BEATS Venusaur because of Mold Breaker + Ice Fang. Second, I compare it to regular Gyarados not Mega.
In addition, I also said that Gyarados is way better against stall and defensive mons because of Taunt. If it doesn't run Taunt, all the checks you mentioned are the same for Gyarados. Besides, it does have room for sub if you don't want/need coverage. Skarm is also 2HKOed after a DD.
Water + Dark is good coverage. Not the best, but good. If you want to name a really great coverage, Ghost/Dark and Fighting are way better since all Dark-types are walling Dark-Psychic.
Megas are better, I know. It is not moving up to A+ and I don't see it there anyways.
Most non-mega DDancers are not worth it because they do nothing what the megas not already do. This does not apply to Feraligatr, read the original post of him from me again. He has abilities which Gyarados wish it would have, but sadly it has moves that are most of the time more useful (Taunt and Intimidate especially).

Again, I am NOT saying it is as good as Mega-Gyarados, I was comparing it more to the regular one.
Anyways this is the last time I am responding to something like this. Albacore made some good points why it should be ranked lower, so I agree with it being in B+.

yea i forgot about MB... even then MDos doesnt like running 3 attack moves.

Skarm can Roar out Gatr and set up rocks.

I can agree on B+, though. However, i doubt it will ever go past B+, and it probably wont be in B+ in the first place.

Lets look at its pros:

-Amazing attack
-great late game sweeper
-DD
-Can run coverage to take on threats well
-Prio
-No LO damage

Cons:

-4MSS
-Weak to many bulky threats
-No reliable recovery (MMeta doesnt need recovery cause it has godly defense, which Gatr lacks)
-Faces competition from other DD'ers, notably MDos, which basically outclasses it.
-Sheer Force means no Flinching with Crunch or Waterfall.
-Slow for a DD'er, especially since it likes to run Adamant, which basically gives it like a base 65 speed tier.
-Has trouble setting up
-Meh movepool

Its a subpar DDer with great attack. It's nothing too special, but if i cant fit a mega, then id use this. Still, not being able to DD is really hard to do because most setup mons really need a lot of free time to set up, and he doesnt have that time.

I guess its a good replacement for MDos if you cant fit him.

But, besides my wacky Klefki nom, I heard really good things about the pokemon i wanna put to A-.

Hawlucha: B+ ---> A-

Now, I'm not too good on this myself, but with access to Unburden, SD, HJK, Sky Attack, and Acrobatics, this thing has really good coverage. After using Sky Attack, nothing outspeeds it, besides priority. Albeit being weak to balance, an SD can fix that. It also outspeeds Land I after an RP, which is a godsend.

Its sheer power, speed, great offensive and defensive typing and more just makes it better than the rest. It is also probably the best late game sweeper out there.

The only thing that can take it on after a +2 is pretty much TFlame and BandZu. I dont think it should go any higher than A- tho, if it goes there. Im not really confident on this, so im sorry if this sounds bad.

edit: after realizing how bad i was hyping this im still really tied if it should go to a-. im leaning towards B+ due to its weakness against Balance and Stall, but its really good against offense/

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I agree with TFL and Gibbs, Magneton is a really bad Pokemon to be sitting in B- Rank, and I was actually thinking for a long time to nom it for a drop. Scarf Magneton is being frankly very overrated in this metagame...frankly, the only reason I ever found to use it was to outspeed Greninja, and that's gone now. Outside of that, it may outspeed a few things that Magnezone doesn't, but it's not very bulky so it's a really risky Pokemon to use if at all. Compared to its evo, Magneton is weaker and it's not anywhere near as bulky (just look at that horrid HP, it's Diancie level lol). It does a trapping job much worse than Magnezone does because of this. I get that it's faster but the only notable things I can think of that it can outspeed are Starmie and Tornadus-T, which are frankly the only things it does well at checking. Other than that, I'd rather just use Scarf Zone honestly. It should definitely drop to at least C, if not lower. Its niches, if it has any, are very minor and it's not on the level of Hydreigon, Lucario, and Sylveon.

Mega Absol is alright. Its offensive sets are decent, and with Magic Bounce it's a cool offensive Pokemon with good coverage and decent power and Speed. With an outright offensive set it's an alright breaker and SD does decent work. Though it's really frail and it does miss out on KOing some stuff so it shouldn't move up, but it should stay where it is.

Noivern should remain in C-. It's frankly not even that good and the only reason I find to use it are Infiltrator and its STAB Draco Meteor. Flamethrower is okay I guess too. It's not bad but it's not very impressive when you look at it in the light of Tornadus-T, Mega Pidgeot, and the Latis among other Dragons. Others explained it well so I won't elaborate...

That's all I have in mind for now, will think of more later.

 

[Dilwar]

Sorry if it's been brought up before but why not Mega Scizor A --> A+?

The thing has amazing typing allowing it to check numerous big threats in the tier and very solid to bulk to back it up. Here is an EV spread for it that may not be the best, but goes to show what it can check depending on what you prefer:

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Def / 156 SpD
Impish Nature

Calcs

252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 108+ Def Mega Scizor: 147-174 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO

Obviously can shift a little more to Defense to make that a zero but the 156 in SpDef lets it do this:

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Mega Scizor: 146-173 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO

These are miniscule chances that can basically be zero. Being able to stall out a 252 Atk Adamant Earth Plate Lando-T is a ridiculous benchmark as that means it also can wall things like Banded Azumarill, stall out Life Orb Jolly Excadrill (and Adamant has a small 16% chance to 2HKO), and other strong physical attackers like Mamoswine, Terrakion, Garchomp and the really popular Mega Lopunny. Also can check Mega Gyarados by living any +1 hit and hit with Bug Bite. The Gengar benchmark means it can wall Mega Gardevoir, non Life Orb Thundurus and basically all other weaker Special Attackers. Mega Gardevoir is hella strong so that's a good benchmark.

Obviously these are rather hypothetical calcs as the EV spread is customized to wall as many things as possible, hence the no Attack or Speed investment which Mega Scizor does prefer to run, but the point is to show just all the things it can wall. You can obviously change it around to wall things better depending on what your team needs, perhaps dump more into SpDef to make that Gengar calc better, and vice versa with Lando-T / LO Exca. Or even just make it more offensive by for example taking out of SpDef while still retaining that physical bulk. The spread is more of a middle ground just to show what it's capable of walling.

Anyway, it has some pretty amazing traits to brag about. It's the one true counter to Mega Metagross which is amazing as that thing is flipping everywhere and hella good, like the only reliable Mega Gardevoir switch in (while also OHKOing with BP) and a very reliable check to Mega Diancie as it very rarely runs HP Fire, which again is pretty amazing as Mega Diancie is extremely hard to check. Like Gardevoir, BP also OHKOs Diancie. Also can check DD Mega Altaria which is good as that thing is getting really popular. Honestly though just countering Mega Metagross, the most dominant Pokemon in the tier is amazing.

Definition for A rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.

Decent enough sweeper with the SD offensive sets, support via Defog and pivot switching with U-Turn and as explained above is most certainly capable of walling a significant portion of the metagame. The trend seems to be that Pokemon fitting at least one of these traits are at A-, two at A and three at A+. Mega Scizor fits all three so it looks worthy of A+, and from what I've seen in the OU chat room, many see it in the same league as those in A+.

Few flaws wise, yeah massive fire weakness but that's really it. Definitely can be easily compensated for with random bulky water or whatever. I think it's really odd that things like Azumarill, a mon who honestly isn't THAT good anymore in this meta is ranked above it.

P.S - what happened to Garchomp? Worthy of A+ or nah? There were a LOT of people in support of this.

 

[MilkyWay]

yea i forgot about MB... even then MDos doesnt like running 3 attack moves.

Skarm can Roar out Gatr and set up rocks.

I can agree on B+, though. However, i doubt it will ever go past B+, and it probably wont be in B+ in the first place.

Lets look at its pros:

-Amazing attack
-great late game sweeper
-DD
-Can run coverage to take on threats well
-Prio
-No LO damage

Cons:

-4MSS
-Weak to many bulky threats
-No reliable recovery (MMeta doesnt need recovery cause it has godly defense, which Gatr lacks)
-Faces competition from other DD'ers, notably MDos, which basically outclasses it.
-Sheer Force means no Flinching with Crunch or Waterfall.
-Slow for a DD'er, especially since it likes to run Adamant, which basically gives it like a base 65 speed tier.
-Has trouble setting up
-Meh movepool

Its a subpar DDer with great attack. It's nothing too special, but if i cant fit a mega, then id use this. Still, not being able to DD is really hard to do because most setup mons really need a lot of free time to set up, and he doesnt have that time.

I guess its a good replacement for MDos if you cant fit him.

Just gonna fix up your pros and cons a little bit

Pros:

-Amazing Attack with Sheer Force
-Great late game sweeper
-Access to three good boosting moves (Swords Dance, Agility, Dragon Dance
-Good coverage moves that get Sheer Force boost
-Priority in Aqua Jet
-Can beat Ferrothorn with Superpower or (some) bulky waters with Substitute if necessary
-No Life Orb recoil

Cons:

-4MSS
-Has trouble beating bulky pokemon without Dragon Dance set
-Typing doesn't offer many resistances and only decent defensive stats
-Faces competition from (Mega) Gyarados and Crawdaunt but has its perk over all three of them
-A little on the slow side
-Has trouble setting up
-Low base power moves

As for why normal Gyarados is ranked A- is mostly due to Intimidate + Water/Flying typing. It has a much easier time getting up one or two Dragon Dances than Feraligatr and it can also run a defensive set to take on pokemon like Keldeo. However, Gyarados is noticeably less powerful than Feraligatr when running a Jolly nature (which both should be), does not have as good coverage, has an annoying Stealth Rock weakness, and cannot usually be both a Dragon Dancer and a defensive answer to pokemon such as Keldeo and Landorus without being worn down quickly. To sum it up, Gyarados has some defensive utility unlike Feraligatr but as an offensive Dragon Dancer I prefer Feraligatr. Gyarados is better off attempting a bulky Dragon Dance set with Leftovers so it can try to do two things at once (check Landorus + Keldeo and set up with Dragon Dance) but in no way does it outclass Feraligatr.

As for Mega Gyarados it is even more bulky than normal Gyarados and can essentially use two good abilities and types at once, with the tradeoff of being weaker and taking up a mega slot.

As I see it we have Feraligatr on one end who is very poweful with decent coverage, but not very bulky, Gyarados in the middle who is somewhat powerful but has good defenses, and finally Mega Gyarados on the other side who is relatively weak but has great defenses and can always afford to run dual STABs giving it less 4MSS than the others.

So no one really outclasses the other but they are all very similar.

To out everyone's power into a reasonable perspective:

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 191-226 (70.2 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 198-237 (51.8 - 62%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 165-196 (60.6 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 174-205 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 150-177 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 156-186 (40.8 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[firehusky]

I'm a fan of Mega Pidgeot, but I don't really think Mega Pidgeot should go to B-. A stallbreaker set with Hurricane / Work Up / Refresh / Roost is basically walled by any relevant Flying-resist. Flying-resists are extremely common, with Pokemon such as Ttar, Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Heatran, Thundurus, Rotom-W, etc. While these can be handled by team support, the sheer amount of Flying-resists in the tier are quite hard to handle with just a few Pokemon. If using Pidgeot to break stall, I would rather use Houndoom thanks to its access to Taunt and Nasty Plot, allowing it to boost much harder, as well as having great dual STABs.

Besides, I feel that Mega Pidgeots main niche is it's great match up against offense, it has a great speed tier and is able to take out many mons on offensive teams. Stallbreaker Mega Pidgeot could definitely be effective against defensive stall teams, but even then, many stall teams run answers to it such as Empoleon, Skarmory, Doublade, Jirachi (even Bronzong), Rhyperior. These mons are all quite common on stall teams and work as decent answers to Mega Pidgeot. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just think that a stallbreaker set isn't the proper way to use Mega Pidgeot. I mean sure it works well against defensive teams, but combine the fact that many stall teams indirectly run answers to it, and that there are much (arguably) better stallbreakers out there such as Talonflame, Gliscor, Gengar, and Manaphy that can also defeat stall teams without the cost of the valuable mega slot, and don't require as much team support as Mega Pidgeot does. All of the mons I listed above also have uses outside of breaking stall teams, Talonflame is a decent fairy check and a revenge killer, Gliscor is a great physical wall, LO Gengar lacks switch ins and is a decent wallbreaker, while Manaphy doesn't have too much use outside of screwing up stall teams, it's basically the best mon at doing it.

imo, keep Mega Pidgeot in C+ for now.

 

[Celticpride]

I'm a fan of Mega Pidgeot, but I don't really think Mega Pidgeot should go to B-. A stallbreaker set with Hurricane / Work Up / Refresh / Roost is basically walled by any relevant Flying-resist. Flying-resists are extremely common, with Pokemon such as Ttar, Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Heatran, Thundurus, Rotom-W, etc. While these can be handled by team support, the sheer amount of Flying-resists in the tier are quite hard to handle with just a few Pokemon. If using Pidgeot to break stall, I would rather use Houndoom thanks to its access to Taunt and Nasty Plot, allowing it to boost much harder, as well as having great dual STABs.

Besides, I feel that Mega Pidgeots main niche is it's great match up against offense, it has a great speed tier and is able to take out many mons on offensive teams. Stallbreaker Mega Pidgeot could definitely be effective against defensive stall teams, but even then, many stall teams run answers to it such as Empoleon, Skarmory, Doublade, Jirachi (even Bronzong), Rhyperior. These mons are all quite common on stall teams and work as decent answers to Mega Pidgeot. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just think that a stallbreaker set isn't the proper way to use Mega Pidgeot. I mean sure it works well against defensive teams, but combine the fact that many stall teams indirectly run answers to it, and that there are much (arguably) better stallbreakers out there such as Talonflame, Gliscor, Gengar, and Manaphy that can also defeat stall teams without the cost of the valuable mega slot, and don't require as much team support as Mega Pidgeot does. All of the mons I listed above also have uses outside of breaking stall teams, Talonflame is a decent fairy check and a revenge killer, Gliscor is a great physical wall, LO Gengar lacks switch ins and is a decent wallbreaker, while Manaphy doesn't have too much use outside of screwing up stall teams, it's basically the best mon at doing it.

imo, keep Mega Pidgeot in C+ for now.

Bronzong, Skarm, Rachi (outside of paraflinch hax, which can be overcome and you shouldn't factor in luck anyways) and Empoleon are all beaten fairly soundly. Doublade isn't seen much in ORAS.

calcs

+4 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 180-212 (53.2 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (103 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 120-142 (39 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

---

0 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Pidgeot: 103-123 (33.5 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+4 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

---

+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 184-217 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

---

+4 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 198-233 (53.3 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 114-135 (37.1 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I mean, if you can't 2HKO Pidgeot it's a tough road to beat it, especially when most of those Steels you mentioned can't deal above 40%. So most stall teams don't have indirect answers to it unless stall carries Rhyperior, which really isn't a stall mon.

As far as the Mega Doom comparison, that's nice and all but Doom is on a clock when it comes to switching in on hazards. Gengar is also on a clock to a similar extent. Pidgeot is too to a degree, but Roost makes that much less of an issue. There's more than just Taunt-based stallbreakers (aka most of the ones you named above), there's a group of stallbreakers of the mono-attacking variety that have a good STAB, reliable recovery, a way to block or get rid of status, and a boosting move. It's not just Pidgeot; Stored Power Mega Latias, Sub MegaMence, and some Togekiss also fall into that category. They all are very hard for stall to take down because they can boost and avoid or heal off passive damage.

As far as being the "proper way to use Pidgeot" that set was a big reason it got banned from RU and why it's a top UU mon atm, it's not something I came up with myself recently. It has been proven to be an effective and workable set in lower tiers and it translates to OU fairly well.

 

[bb skarm]

another thing about pidgeot that in itself should warrant a rise to b- is that it ties with tornadus-t and packs the third/fourth (not positive but please dont make a post just to correct me) highest speed tier in the entire metagame while still being a pretty tough attacker, which just makes it so much easier to roost stall and not be pressured too much by offensive pressure, something that many people can experience with cm + mg clefable. i also find this very relevant because it kinda acts as an extremely reliable natural revenge killer as it hits hard enough to always finish off most weakened targets, allowing it to pull that off as a side role too. just thought that this would be relevant enough to add to celticpride's nom.

 

[heritage]

Haha I'm here before somebody tags me about this because ofc somebody will eventually since I'm a Pidgeot girl

In my opinion, not only is Mega Pidgeot is not only one of the most under-rated Mega Pokémon in the current metagame, but one of the best. It has an amazing Speed tier, allowing it to outspeed quite a few things that threaten it, aka Latios, Starmie, Raikou and etc. Hurricane is an incredibly spam-able move, especially considering it never misses. Back that up with a pretty good Special Attack stat and you've got an extremely threatening Pokémon. Honestly, the best way to use Mega Pidgeot is to team it up with a Nasty Plot user. At +2, Pidgeot pretty much blows through the entire metagame bar Tyranitar, Heatran and Rotom-W, which can be beaten by a various Hidden Power. Flying is a fantastic offensive typing however. Combine that with Heat Wave, there are very few threats that can actually stand up to Pidgeot. Not to mention that it can actually gain a lot of momentum with U-Turn if it finds itself in a situation it doesn't want to be in.

I mean, look at some of these calcs at +2

Hide

+2 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 339-400 (113.3 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 237-279 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 291-343 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 392-464 (101.8 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 306-362 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Even Pokémon that resist Hurricane have a seriously hard time tanking hits

+2 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 174-205 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 298-351 (70.2 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 123-144 (30.5 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

I mean, Work Up is a decent option, but firehusky was right as in that set is walled by every Flying resist. People are prepared for Pokemon such as Talonflame, so Flying resists are becoming a lot more common. Pidgeot kinda needs Heat Wave to work, and if your opponent freely allows Pidgeot to get to +4, then they've probably lost anyways.

tl;dr: Pidgeot has a fantastic Speed tier and probably the most spam-able move in the game with a never-missing Hurricane, and deserves to move to B-

E: Eww I'm sorry how messy this post was but I think I got my thoughts across

 

[firehusky]

Ok, you're right about the fact that Pidgeot can beat most of those steel types. However, there are still many other stallbreakers out there that don't use up the mega slot and can break stall much more effectively, as well as also having uses outside of stallbreaking. Pidgeot is still walled by any offensive flying-resist that can deal over 50%. If you've let just about any Pokemon get up to +4, you're pretty much screwed. Mega Houndoom is on a timer every time it switches in on SR, that's right, but during the course of the match it probably won't be switching in that many times, as it's purpose is to sweep late game, stallbreak with taunt, or break stuff with nasty plot + dual STABs.

My point is that Pidgeot can use it's stallbreaking set to great effect against stall teams (btw Rhyperior is seen on stall teams as a physical tank and answer to Zard X), but it'll have a poor match up against offensive teams so it can't make use of it's good speed tier. It's literally walled by any offensive flying-type resist that can deal over 50%, and there a bunch of those, such as Rotom-W, Thundurus, MGross, MDiancie, Ttar, Mega Manectric, Aerodactyl, Raikou, Magnezone etc. Stallbreaker Mega Pidgeot may be a great set in lower tiers, but it's not that good in OU because there are much more effective mons to do that such as Manaphy and SD Gliscor, both of which can singelhandedly destroy stall without using up a mega slot.

 

[AM]

Ok, you're right about the fact that Pidgeot can beat most of those steel types. However, there are still many other stallbreakers out there that don't use up the mega slot and can break stall much more effectively, as well as also having uses outside of stallbreaking. Pidgeot is still walled by any offensive flying-resist that can deal over 50%. If you've let just about any Pokemon get up to +4, you're pretty much screwed. Mega Houndoom is on a timer every time it switches in on SR, that's right, but during the course of the match it probably won't be switching in that many times, as it's purpose is to sweep late game, stallbreak with taunt, or break stuff with nasty plot + dual STABs.

My point is that Pidgeot can use it's stallbreaking set to great effect against stall teams (btw Rhyperior is seen on stall teams as a physical tank and answer to Zard X), but it'll have a poor match up against offensive teams so it can't make use of it's good speed tier. It's literally walled by any offensive flying-type resist that can deal over 50%, and there a bunch of those, such as Rotom-W, Thundurus, MGross, MDiancie, Ttar, Mega Manectric, Aerodactyl, Raikou, Magnezone etc. Stallbreaker Mega Pidgeot may be a great set in lower tiers, but it's not that good in OU because there are much more effective mons to do that such as Manaphy and SD Gliscor, both of which can singelhandedly destroy stall without using up a mega slot.

You're right about most of that stuff but I wouldn't go as far as to say the set itself is bad. Most Mega Pidgeot teams rely on the fact that Mega Pidgeot is a cleaner so it'll be seen a lot of times with Spike support and as such the set itself is a win condition, and by the definition of one these things would be out of the picture. Also the set sort of "stallbreaks" in the fact it's not prone by status but even then that's sort of a stretch to call it a stall-breaker more so than a win con so that's just my thought process.

No comment on its placement just thought I would bring that point up. Good discussion regardless.

 

[Lemonade]

I nom P2 from C to C+. It pulls its 71.6 pounds by having a decent defensive typing as well as solid coverage. Eviolite makes it super defensive, and it has decent Special Attack and good coverage (muh boltbeam). Trace is really useful and can counter-Intimidate big threats like Landorus-T or smack opposing Mega Altaria with a Fairy-type Tri-Attack (don't forget hax!). Also look at this calc bros

0- Atk Tough Claws Porygon2 Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%)

not even bad. Also, it has much less opportunity cost than a lot of the Pokemon in C because it isn't a Mega. I don't talk about flaws here but I'm only suggesting C to C+; ofc Porygon relies on Eviolite and requires a lot of team support (muh clerics). But I feel it deserves to move up, especially because http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/almostanyability-209524113.

 

[firehusky]

You're right about most of that stuff but I wouldn't go as far as to say the set itself is bad. Most Mega Pidgeot teams rely on the fact that Mega Pidgeot is a cleaner so it'll be seen a lot of times with Spike support and as such the set itself is a win condition, and by the definition of one these things would be out of the picture. Also the set sort of "stallbreaks" in the fact it's not prone by status but even then that's sort of a stretch to call it a stall-breaker more so than a win con so that's just my thought process.

No comment on its placement just thought I would bring that point up. Good discussion regardless.

Sorry, I didn't really mean to say that the set was bad. What I meant was that the set faces lots of competition from others stallbreakers like gliscor and manaphy. Work Up Mega Pidgeot is still a decent wincon. (ask Bluwing )

 

[Bluwing]

it's more off a wallbreaker in my eyes, tho it can act as a wincon as well due to it's speed tier and access to refresh + roost, i would say it's a solid set overall and one off it's most consistent in the current meta (hence the bulky playstyles) but is heavely pressured by pursuit tar without u-turn.

 

[blinkie]

One problem that you have when you run the "Stallbreaker" set is that Pidgeot loses its edge against more offensive teams as it cannot run moves such as U-turn and Heat Wave anymore. Against threats such as AV Raikou, Pidgeot will lose large amounts of momentum without U-turn, while it also cannot pressure more offensive steels such as Magnezone. A well timed fast Roost can be helpful in certain situations, but keep in mind you lose a lot of what makes Pidgeot good as well by running this set, when as firehusky said there are other perfectly viable stallbreakers that can do the same job.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Pulling in a decent set and saying that it beats Balance and semistall is odd.

Running that set gives you literally no coverage and makes yourself an open target. If a Chansey is staying into 5 Work ups, then you are facing a horrible competitive player.

MPidg is honestly in terms a more fragile, but faster and stronger talonflame; same attacks, similar playstyle, etc. except that it has no way to boost its attack whatsoever (work up lol). With No Guard it makes it impossible to not be hit, meaning you dont have to worry about Stone Edge and shit like that missing.

The problem with it is that it is really... meh. Its so weak to so many common things. Its just a mega with one hard hitting stab and a weak coverage move. Albeit having U turn and Roost, this thing is really not threatening for a mega.

Sure, its fast, but its so frail it relies on its meh 135 SpA (not that good without an LO) to KO everything it touches. Also, I'm not using a frail mon thats supposed to take on Offense and turn it into a "Stallbreaker" when i can just use something like MHera to break stall and shit.

Its only good feature is speed and attack. Everything else sucks about him. He also doesnt look too hot in a meta with scarfers, bulky ass mons, MDiancie, and other shit. Until the meta changes into its favor, C+ is fine for it. If it only had a way to greatly boost its SpA...

It's a shame this thing is so bad. If it had something like NP it would be cool.

BTW, bumping a mon because you made a new set really doesn't mean much... also its not like Stall/Balance runs Clefable, TTar, Heatran, etc at all...

Still that set is honestly good. It loses out on basically everything offensive though. Having a mega thats super matchup reliant is really bad. I cant see it in B- honestly, but my stubborn attitude will always say that.

 

[Roxachronic]

Pulling in a decent set and saying that it beats Balance and semistall is odd.

Running that set gives you literally no coverage and makes yourself an open target. If a Chansey is staying into 5 Work ups, then you are facing a horrible competitive player.

MPidg is honestly in terms a more fragile, but faster and stronger talonflame; same attacks, similar playstyle, etc. except that it has no way to boost its attack whatsoever (work up lol). With No Guard it makes it impossible to not be hit, meaning you dont have to worry about Stone Edge and shit like that missing.

The problem with it is that it is really... meh. Its so weak to so many common things. Its just a mega with one hard hitting stab and a weak coverage move. Albeit having U turn and Roost, this thing is really not threatening for a mega.

Sure, its fast, but its so frail it relies on its meh 135 SpA (not that good without an LO) to KO everything it touches. Also, I'm not using a frail mon thats supposed to take on Offense and turn it into a "Stallbreaker" when i can just use something like MHera to break stall and shit.

Its only good feature is speed and attack. Everything else sucks about him. He also doesnt look too hot in a meta with scarfers, bulky ass mons, MDiancie, and other shit. Until the meta changes into its favor, C+ is fine for it. If it only had a way to greatly boost its SpA...

It's a shame this thing is so bad. If it had something like NP it would be cool.

BTW, bumping a mon because you made a new set really doesn't mean much... also its not like Stall/Balance runs Clefable, TTar, Heatran, etc at all...

Still that set is honestly good. It loses out on basically everything offensive though. Having a mega thats super matchup reliant is really bad. I cant see it in B- honestly, but my stubborn attitude will always say that.

You know that Talonflame has more base speed than M-Pidgeot right?I don't know why you saig that M-Pidgeot is faster, heck even without the base speed Talonflame has priority.

Now lets begin with something important, is very tiring when people look only at the stats and not the move that backs it up, since it is a 110BP move with a free 30% chance of confussion, this makes the move more powerful than lets say... a LO Scald from Keldeo, not the most powerful move in the meta but is still very respectable, and is a Flying-type move, M-Salamence and Talonflame had shown very well how good that type is offensive.

My point was that even some mons who can use LO not necessarily have powerful moves to use it freely to stack the damage with it, and a lot of times usually use ''low'' BP moves.

Is a similar case when people realize that M-Lopunny actually has more raw damage than Megagross even after factoring Tough Claws because she has a much higher BP move.

It can actually do some pretty effective work,still I think C+ is fine for it tbh.

The biggest problem for M-Pidgeot is that tornadus-T exists, this is a mon that can use high BP move along LO, of course it has less accuracy for Hurricane,but it lasts longer because Regenerator, does more overall damage, does not cost a mega slot, and another important thing is that the first turn M-Pidgeot is kind of slow, something Torna-t does not care about.