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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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Nominating Victini for B+ rank! I just cannot express how well this thing wallbreaks. V-create is basically the sole reason for this, as a 180 power STAB move, usually bolstered further by the choice band, gives teams a hell of a time switching into it. Furthermore, the scarf set can be used as a more powerful kind of revenge killer, whilst also being able to somewhat negate the speed drop from V-create allowing for two uses. Good bulk for an offensive pokemon and immunity to burn is just icing on the cake, and some pretty stellar coverage in bolt strike and brick break doesn't hurt ether. However, an extremely underrated set that has been found on Victini is a special wallbreaker set, consisting of Blue Flare as the main STAB, psyshock as a secondary one, and then usually thunderbolt and focus blast, the first one and the last one's accuracy increased by victory star (more icing!) this set is extremely efficient at lureing in heatran, tyranitar, slowbro and my favorite, lando-T, and can easily dispose of them with the appropriate move. A move that could be looked into is glaciate, but that actually finds more of a home in the physical set as a way to beat Lando-T. Finally, while facing fierce competition from both the Zards as a fire type nuke, it doesn't rely on weather or use a mega slot. Tell me what you think!
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Actually, Victini has been deserving of going up to A- for a long time now because it's easily more threatening and as good as the other pixies like Jirachi and Celebi. What makes Victini such an incredible force for both balance and offensive teams is that it's amazing both offensively and defensively. Offense often finds it very difficult to switch into things like Mega Gardevoir, Char-Y and Mega Metagross, but thanks to Victini they can not only do so, but also nearly guarantee a KO while they are at it, as something will be dying to or getting crippled by a V-Create. And then on the other side of the coin, teams often have an excruciating time switching into Victini itself, so yeah, it kills two birds with one stone. It's coverage is brutal, having practically all the tools it needs to break anything (Ground/Water mons like Quaggy and Swampert simply die to Energy Ball or get U-turned on). Excellent glue mon, and puts in work against all teams and play styles, easy A- mon right now.
I would just like to say, a lot of us on here come because we want to learn a game we all love (most of the time). However, sometimes the top players on here can make it very difficult to feel welcomed. I mean didn't you all start somewhere? For example: The community had some good conversation on Garchomp and seemed to come to a conclusion as A+. The voting council came together and made the decision that this doesn't accurately reflect Garchomp's true viability, and thats is fine. You guys are the ones with the final say, and for a reason. I did expect at least some explanation in the update about chomp considering not one person posted anything about him other than a raise, which received many likes. It's not a huge deal and i understand people like AM have so much on their plate that this is so minor to them. Wether you played RPS, all yelled shot-not etc., it seemed that no one in the ranking team wanted to waste time giving us an explanation. We spend our free time on this site bc we enjoy it and want to have fun while learning a thing or two. Some of us are more passionate than others for sure, but we all want to learn and get better. It is pretty difficult when the community is, sometimes, treated like fools by the ones who are suppose to be helping us.
Edit: this was just a recent example in the last page(s). i assumed no game was actually played to determine the response, but it didn't exactly seem like they volunteered lol. I just think everyone should be treated equally, its only a Pokemon site after all lmao. \Time to move on :)
Edit: this was just a recent example in the last page(s). i assumed no game was actually played to determine the response, but it didn't exactly seem like they volunteered lol. I just think everyone should be treated equally, its only a Pokemon site after all lmao. \Time to move on :)
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You took the rock paper scissors aspect extremely out of context and are clearly not aware of Henry's sense of humor, which is understandable as not many people here actually communicate with him all the time. The implication was more to provide a valid reasoning. We literally didn't sit and play rock paper scissors and decide who would speak on the matter. We decided on who would best provide that reasoning so you guys can get an idea and it was decided on by Henry since he had a clearer understanding to convey that message more adequately, hence the analogy.
Please stop the self pitying as well it's just silly at this point. This will be the only response on this topic that I will be giving on this thread.
So I think someone else said this, but why did Suicune move up? I think it should go back down, to be honest. It only has 1 viable set which sets up on a fair number of things but loses to almost every other Calm Minder such as Mega Slowbro, SubCM Raikou, SubCM Keldeo, CM Gardevoir, only beating CM Clefable and it can lose if thats Unaware. On top of that having only one attacking move (albeit a pretty good one) means it really doesn't do much to anything unless it's already set up or gets a burn. This level of passivity is kind of awkward for a setup sweeper (Clef is the only other one like this I can think of) and relying on Sleep Talk is not the best.
It's not a bad mon but I just didn't see any metagame trends that warranted a rise. Yeah it checks Metagross decently well but Taunt is everywhere and counters like Nasty Plot Celebi are as popular as ever. It's really just setup fodder for most of the other Calm Mind users, even Reuniclus which is ranked below it. It fits the trend of bulkiness this metagame has but also faces plenty of competition from other bulky waters and is hurt by the increasing popularity of wallbreakers like Kyurem-B.
It's not a bad mon but I just didn't see any metagame trends that warranted a rise. Yeah it checks Metagross decently well but Taunt is everywhere and counters like Nasty Plot Celebi are as popular as ever. It's really just setup fodder for most of the other Calm Mind users, even Reuniclus which is ranked below it. It fits the trend of bulkiness this metagame has but also faces plenty of competition from other bulky waters and is hurt by the increasing popularity of wallbreakers like Kyurem-B.
idk how you can say "SPL players used Garchomp a lot and that shows metagame defining" when the council is mainly SPL players xD. Council members have the final say and rudely arguing like this is bad.
Anyways, I think Hawlucha to B+.
Substitute SD Hawlucha looks a lot like offensive SD Scolipede. Both have high speeds, decent attacks and ways to increase speed. Hawlucha can smash the dumb Tyranitar and Keldeo cores and other common offensive cores running around. It's ability to set up a Swords Dance, take a hit and recover with Sitrus Berry makes it an amazing cleaner and threat to offense. Against more balanced and stall builds it still has Substitute and a way to set up. I'll post some Calcs later but given Hawluchas favorable matchup to smack offense and sand it should be raised.
Anyways, I think Hawlucha to B+.
Substitute SD Hawlucha looks a lot like offensive SD Scolipede. Both have high speeds, decent attacks and ways to increase speed. Hawlucha can smash the dumb Tyranitar and Keldeo cores and other common offensive cores running around. It's ability to set up a Swords Dance, take a hit and recover with Sitrus Berry makes it an amazing cleaner and threat to offense. Against more balanced and stall builds it still has Substitute and a way to set up. I'll post some Calcs later but given Hawluchas favorable matchup to smack offense and sand it should be raised.
So going to nominate Metagross(vanilla) for D
Assault Vest Metagross is actually somewhat viable in OU, as it can hold an item, giving it a niche over Mega Metagross. It functions decently as a Pursuit trapper if you want one and something else is already taking up your mega slot. The Assault Vest makes it a reliable switch in to the Lati twins and Gardevoir, and it can then pursuit trap them, opening up opportunities for mons like Keldeo. Other than the Latis, it can also pursuit trap offensive starmie. It also can switch in on mons like Scarf Keldeo, Sylveon, etc. With the help of the Assault Vest, it can live surprising hits, such as Heatran's Fire Blast and Gengar's Shadow Ball, which can be helpful against opponents who think you are mega Metagross. However, its low speed and lack of recovery hold it back, while it sometimes misses out on power and sometimes on bulk. I think D would be a good placement, as its niche is still pretty small.
Assault Vest Metagross is actually somewhat viable in OU, as it can hold an item, giving it a niche over Mega Metagross. It functions decently as a Pursuit trapper if you want one and something else is already taking up your mega slot. The Assault Vest makes it a reliable switch in to the Lati twins and Gardevoir, and it can then pursuit trap them, opening up opportunities for mons like Keldeo. Other than the Latis, it can also pursuit trap offensive starmie. It also can switch in on mons like Scarf Keldeo, Sylveon, etc. With the help of the Assault Vest, it can live surprising hits, such as Heatran's Fire Blast and Gengar's Shadow Ball, which can be helpful against opponents who think you are mega Metagross. However, its low speed and lack of recovery hold it back, while it sometimes misses out on power and sometimes on bulk. I think D would be a good placement, as its niche is still pretty small.
Hawlucha was just dropped to B, and for good reason.
Hawlucha is actually quite weak without boosts, and the metagame is getting bulkier, and hawlucha just can't keep up. Hippowdon, garchomp, mega metagross, and lando-t are all quite common and can all effectively check / counter it. Wanna smack sand in the face? Breloom can do it too, while also having access to spore, and making for a decent lead. Thundy-I is very common on offensive teams, and hawlucha will rarely find a chance to set up SDs. The SD scolipede comparison also isn't very fair. Scolipede can afford to run adamant, hold a life orb, while also having coverage in the form of EQ. Stall teams also unintentionally pack answers to it, such as skarmory, unaware clefable, quagsire, hippowdon, etc.
Hawlucha is actually quite weak without boosts, and the metagame is getting bulkier, and hawlucha just can't keep up. Hippowdon, garchomp, mega metagross, and lando-t are all quite common and can all effectively check / counter it. Wanna smack sand in the face? Breloom can do it too, while also having access to spore, and making for a decent lead. Thundy-I is very common on offensive teams, and hawlucha will rarely find a chance to set up SDs. The SD scolipede comparison also isn't very fair. Scolipede can afford to run adamant, hold a life orb, while also having coverage in the form of EQ. Stall teams also unintentionally pack answers to it, such as skarmory, unaware clefable, quagsire, hippowdon, etc.
Pairing Hawlucha with 1-2 wallbreakers and predicting accordingly alleviates Hawlucha's inability to sweep in certain matchups. Landorus-I and Taunt +3 atks Gar are two examples of potent wallbreakers that have proved to be incredibly difficult to switch into and can easily remove passive mons like Hippowdon and Slowbro that can stomach Hawlucha's STABS. Landorus-T is also by no means an answer to Hawlucha and is actually often used as set-up fodder for luchador which is another reason why it should rise being how prevalent Lando-T is in the current meta (Gliscor which has been rising in usage, is also a liability for your opponent when you run Hawlucha).
And why would anybody attempt to set up SD's on Thundy-I with Lucha? Simply get up rocks and either remove it with teammates or get behind a sub, weaken it with HJK's and then proceed to switch Lucha out for a later sweep. The former is the easiest approach to deal with Thundy-I tho.
Hawlucha is best used either in the late-game when you've removed or weakened said counters/checks or when you have a favorable team matchup and your opponent doesn't come prepared (which happens often due to this mon being soo slept on!!). I'd like to see Hawlucha to be promoted to atleast B+, although I personally feel it's good enough for A-.
Hi guys a while back I nominated Weavile for B+ rank.
Weavile has an amazing niche in the OU metagame right now. Boasting a nice base 125 speed tier and a fairly good 120 Attack stat. He also has access to Ice Shard which is one of the main reasons I'm making this nomination. Being able to revenge kill many threats that can start off a potential sweep like Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross (lacking Bullet Punch), Landorus-I, Landorus-T, Lati twins, Garchomp (who's becoming increasingly common) and others in the OU metagame is an extremely good thing. Weavile does have that terrible Mach Punch and Bullet Punch weakness which is really hurting it's potential right now, but I think that he is one of the best revenge killers in OU at the time being.
to B+
Weavile has an amazing niche in the OU metagame right now. Boasting a nice base 125 speed tier and a fairly good 120 Attack stat. He also has access to Ice Shard which is one of the main reasons I'm making this nomination. Being able to revenge kill many threats that can start off a potential sweep like Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross (lacking Bullet Punch), Landorus-I, Landorus-T, Lati twins, Garchomp (who's becoming increasingly common) and others in the OU metagame is an extremely good thing. Weavile does have that terrible Mach Punch and Bullet Punch weakness which is really hurting it's potential right now, but I think that he is one of the best revenge killers in OU at the time being.
Can I suggest a ranking for Shaymin, probably around the B ranks. I've been testing it's specs set in around the 1400 ladder, and it's been really effective as a wall breaker. And not to mention the chance to completely mess up special walls with the spdef drop from seed flare. I've been using a moveset of seed flare, earth power, psychic and healing wish, but other moves include air slash, hidden power (ice or fire) giga drain, etc. It may not be a top rank pokemon, but I certainly feel it deserves a rank, somewhere atleast. I would also add some calcs, but I'm on my phone and it's not exactly easy to do with the worst internet ever invented!
The fact it can get a drop at any moment with seed flare makes it incredibly good as a specs user in my opinion. If I'm correct, it does 20% to chansey on switchin, it gets the drop, it will now do 40%, chansey is forced to soft boiled, giving you a chance to get another drop or even a crit! Or momentum by switching out to something to take it on.
Sure, it may be somewhat slow (albeit for a wall breaker it doesn't need to be super quick) and not have an amazing typing but does it really deserve to be unranked?
The fact it can get a drop at any moment with seed flare makes it incredibly good as a specs user in my opinion. If I'm correct, it does 20% to chansey on switchin, it gets the drop, it will now do 40%, chansey is forced to soft boiled, giving you a chance to get another drop or even a crit! Or momentum by switching out to something to take it on.
Sure, it may be somewhat slow (albeit for a wall breaker it doesn't need to be super quick) and not have an amazing typing but does it really deserve to be unranked?
B is too much of a stretch imo, judging as Shaymin is... pretty bad. If you nominate it, it should be around D, and you should provide replays as well.
You could use Serperior instead, which boasts a much appreciated higher base alongside a 130 BP move that always puts you at +2, Seed Flare is only good if the opponent doesn't change and is dependant on luck to begin with, also with Megagross,M-Altaria,both Char, Heatran, Talonflame and some other means being locked into a Grass move may be not the best option, since you will become setup bait or lose a lot of momentum.
Shaymin is completely outclassed tbh.
Shaymin has Earth Power, something Serperior would kill for, as well as being a status absorber thanks to Natural Cure, and the ability to heal off LO damage (which I personally think is better than Specs) with either Rest or Synthesis. I could see Shaymin getting at least C rank. I know I've seen a few people using it in the past.
I would most certainly question what Shaymin's advantages over Celebi are; they seem to only be Seed Flare and not being dark-weak. Still, Celebi outclassing Shaymin at basically everything aside from maybe a Seed Flare-based wallbreaker makes it very non-versatile, and competing with a ton of other wallbreakers - which OU certainly has no shortage of - makes it hard for me to see it in C.
I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying. You just named two pretty huge advantages Shaymin has over Celebi and then said they didn't matter. Seed Flare is a move with a 40% chance to lower SAtk by two stages (that's more than Scald!), and not being Dark weak is huge in a metagame where Scarf Ttar is one of the most popular Pokemon, and teams are way over-saturated with Psychics (Lati@s, Starmie, Jirachi, Celebi, Slowbro, etc.). I consider these to be big enough advantages over Celebi that the comparison is weak. The comparison to Serperior is, in my opinion, much more valid, but like I said, having Earth Power to lure Heatran is reason enough for me to use Shaymin over it.
I could see Shaymin in D TBH, it has a decent movepool both offensively and support wise, good stats and a cool move in Seed Flare, which basically forces switches. It has a niche on hazard stacking semistall due to it. It should never go higher than D, but it's more viable than stuff like M.Glalie and Gorebyss, who are in D rank. Halcyon. already posted the reasons it has some viablility on other teams.
Honestly I think M.Glalie can just get the boot of the list, it's pretty useless and if I wanted a suicide ice type I'd use sash D-Bond Froslass, who can actually do something without risk of being KOed immediately due to sash and doesn't take the mega slot. If it's only real niche is killing itself, then I don't think it should be ranked, regardless of the power of it's explosion.
I also agree Victini, Weavile and Dragalge should move up.
Honestly I think M.Glalie can just get the boot of the list, it's pretty useless and if I wanted a suicide ice type I'd use sash D-Bond Froslass, who can actually do something without risk of being KOed immediately due to sash and doesn't take the mega slot. If it's only real niche is killing itself, then I don't think it should be ranked, regardless of the power of it's explosion.
I also agree Victini, Weavile and Dragalge should move up.
Sorry, I didn't mean my post to sound that way -- seed flare and neutrality to dark are of course big advantages; hence why I'm listing them at all. If not I'd just throw them by the wayside with "not as weak to bug lol". The intention of my post, while admittedly the execution came across wrong, was simply to state that Celebi does outclass it in other possible roles such as a cleric or defensive glue which limits the possible versatility it can have. In addition, as you said, the Serperior comparison is much more valid - as I stated, it faces competition as a wallbreaker especially with Serperior. I'm not denying it has a niche in OU; that'd be pretty stupid when I haven't used it myself. I just don't think it has enough to go to the C rankings, D seeming more appropriate from what I can see. Still, the unwritten rule of this thread seems to be if you want something ranked show some replays -- I'd love to see it in action because it does sound pretty fun.
If we're moving Shaymin to D, I'd say that Mega Abomasnow definitely is worthy of some mention for at least D rank. It's an amazing mixed Trick Room attacker with priority to use outside of TR and being able to wall things like Ferrothorn and OHKO so much of the meta if a TR is up. I'd post a replay or two but I'm busy atm, i will later if people want me to. The only things in OU that really wall it are Scizor and Chansey (depending on if you run Wood Hammer or Energy Ball. 140 Atk Mega Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 243-286 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage) if you run EQ which is the best set imo. 100% accurate blizzards and being able to outslow almost everything in the game that matters (0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (36 BP) vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 72-86 (20.5 - 24.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO) other than Mega Camerupt which is almost irrelevant anyway. If we look at D rank description: Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. Mega Abomasnow has a unique STAB coverage, mixed coverage as well without having to go negative SpDef, amazing power with 100% accurate Blizzards, residual Hail damage, STAB priority which is Ice type as well which is better than ever in this meta, slower than almost everything in TR, and the bulk to live most hits, including super effective hits like:
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 270-318 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and extremely powerful neutral hits like:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 256-303 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I know these are only 2 examples but as i said before, I'm really busy atm.
Obviously, Abomasnow has a lot of weaknesses, absolutely awful speed if you're not in TR, and damages most teammates with hail, but that's a D rank mon for you. It's not the best Pokemon around, but I'd argue that it's viable enough to justify its use on select teams, as is required for a D rank Pokemon. To be honest, i could make an argument for C-, but I will leave that for later.
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 270-318 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and extremely powerful neutral hits like:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 256-303 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I know these are only 2 examples but as i said before, I'm really busy atm.
Obviously, Abomasnow has a lot of weaknesses, absolutely awful speed if you're not in TR, and damages most teammates with hail, but that's a D rank mon for you. It's not the best Pokemon around, but I'd argue that it's viable enough to justify its use on select teams, as is required for a D rank Pokemon. To be honest, i could make an argument for C-, but I will leave that for later.
Shaymin has never really worked as a Heatran "lure" in practice though, because Earth Power is a well-known standard coverage move for it. Being able to run Earth Power and HP Fire on the one set to bypass pretty much all common steel types is certainly nice, but unless it's going all-out attacking LO (move 4 is usually a utility move like Rest or Healing Wish), it still misses out on a lot of stuff like the Lati's, Zard-Y, Talon, Venu, Altaria, Dragonite, Mandibuzz, and so on. So it's pretty much always going to have a roadblock which needs to be removed before it can do much. That said, I'm surprised it isn't on the list at all, it deserves at least D for now because although there are other similar mons like Serperior and Celebi who give it competition, it can't be denied that Shaymin does have some ok points to differentiate itself from those, and 100 base stats with a decent enough movepool does tend to lend itself to being viable by default.
Js but CM restalk Mega Slowbro is one of the easiest matchup for Suicune, thanks to Pressure which means it will always come on top of the stall war. If Slowbro runs Psyshock things get tougher but it can beat it with a Scald burn, as well as Pressure still really helping. It also easily beats CM Mega Sableye through Pressure and Scald burns.
AM what's your oppinion on suicune and why i did move up?
Why wouldn't it? It's still one of the hardest Pokémon to break through, with amazing bulk and being able to weaken a lot of teams with Scald burns and etc. It's not outclassed by stuff like Manaphy either, because unlike Manaphy it can sponge a ton of hits and Rest up if needed. I'd say it depends on the team really, but in any case Suicune is still a great Pokémon specially in such a bulky metagame like the current one. The spot it's ranked on sounds fine to me.
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