I would like to nominate Eevee for B-. It has an incredibly powerful Return thanks to its good attack stat, Adaptability, and a great unboosted speed tier of 16 with Jolly Nature. Additionally, to hit faster threats it can use Adaptability-boosted Quick Attack. To hit ghosts it also can use Bite, though it's not the most powerful of moves. The primary problem with Eevee is that it gets completely walled by Pawniard, likely the second most common pokemon in the metagame, as well as many other Steel types, such as Magnemite, Shieldon, and Aron. Additionally, it cannot use Swords Dance or Bulk Up, and its best boosting move is Work Up, with the vague possibility of Curse Quick Attack.
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Resource LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Corporal Levi
- Start date
- Status
Bunnelby is not walled by any of these Pokemon you mentioned while actually having a stronger Return coming off 26 Attack compared to Eevee's 16 Attack along with Adaptability. Bunnelby is also faster and has Quick Attack, meaning it outclasses Eevee as a Normal-type attacker. I think this alone should prevent Eevee from moving up, as it does not really have a stand-alone niche in LC, perhaps aside from Fake Out or Baton Pass.
Eevee has only one reason for its use over Bunnelby in the form of greater bulk, but other than that is outclassed entirely. Bunnelby is significantly stronger, even without adaptability, and has better offensive options than Eevee with Earthquake, Thief, Iron Head, Stone Edge, U-turn, and Wild Charge. Even in the absence of Bunnelby, Eevee doesn't hit hard enough and isn't fast enough to use over other options, like Aipom, Teddiursa, or Doduo. Its attack is only decent, hitting 15 with a neutral nature, and its speed is good, but misses out on the 17 speed tier which might give it some sort of nice. As it stands, Eevee is well deserving of its Smog Frog rank.
If you plan to use Eevee over Bunnelby simply because of its greater bulk, be aware that Eevee misses out on many kills Bunnelby gets, forcing Eevee to take more hits and wearing it down more quickly. Although Eevee has the ability to run Wish, this impacts its coverage significantly, especially if you run Protect as well (which is almost mandatory) since you lose two of Bite, Iron Tail, Return, and Quick Attack.
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
236+ Atk Adaptability Eevee Return vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 10-14 (37 - 51.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Adaptability Eevee Return vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 10-14 (38.4 - 53.8%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
I've already outlined why Stunky doesn't deserve to go up, so I'm not going to post that all again. That's on page 73, so look there if you want to see.
Slowpoke suffers a lot in this metagame with the Knock Off buff now giving the Fighters it used to wall an option to beat it, or at least to not be walled by it any more. Slowpoke's Fighting resist and general physical bulkiness is the reason to use it, and now that Mienfoo can just Knock Off + U-turn on it and Timburr can beat it with a boost, it lost the first part. The physical bulkiness is also kinda less relevant since the number of special sweepers is higher than physical sweepers this gen. Gone are Murkrow and SD LO Drilbur in sand, and in their place has risen Bellsprout, Omanyte, LO Gastly, and LO Elekid as powerful special attackers that it can not wall. Fletchling came up and Slowpoke can definitely take a few Acrobatics, but a +2 U-turn stings. And of course, we have VoltTurn. It's weak to both of the two moves and is faster than nothing that can use them, so it's always taking the hit and having a check or counter switched in on it. Slowpoke as part of a Regenerator core with Foongus can be very annoying, but you're kinda forced to do that when using Slowpoke as without Foongus as a partner Slowpoke is much worse off.
Also, can we talk about moving Trubbish down to C+? It had its time in the spotlight, but now, it's pretty bad. Everyone knows that it has Drain Punch now, so it's much less effective as a Pawniard lure. It's weak and not very bulky unless it's in against a Fighting-type, and even then, Pancham has Mold Breaker Knock Off and Timburr absolutely loves setting up right in Trubbish's face. Fast Spikes are cool, but that Speed sacrifices a lot of the bulk it needs to be effective. It's hard to fit Trubbish on a team because it's too weak for offense, too frail for stall, and is too much of a set-up sweeper risk for balanced teams. Trubbish is simply trash now.
Slowpoke suffers a lot in this metagame with the Knock Off buff now giving the Fighters it used to wall an option to beat it, or at least to not be walled by it any more. Slowpoke's Fighting resist and general physical bulkiness is the reason to use it, and now that Mienfoo can just Knock Off + U-turn on it and Timburr can beat it with a boost, it lost the first part. The physical bulkiness is also kinda less relevant since the number of special sweepers is higher than physical sweepers this gen. Gone are Murkrow and SD LO Drilbur in sand, and in their place has risen Bellsprout, Omanyte, LO Gastly, and LO Elekid as powerful special attackers that it can not wall. Fletchling came up and Slowpoke can definitely take a few Acrobatics, but a +2 U-turn stings. And of course, we have VoltTurn. It's weak to both of the two moves and is faster than nothing that can use them, so it's always taking the hit and having a check or counter switched in on it. Slowpoke as part of a Regenerator core with Foongus can be very annoying, but you're kinda forced to do that when using Slowpoke as without Foongus as a partner Slowpoke is much worse off.
Also, can we talk about moving Trubbish down to C+? It had its time in the spotlight, but now, it's pretty bad. Everyone knows that it has Drain Punch now, so it's much less effective as a Pawniard lure. It's weak and not very bulky unless it's in against a Fighting-type, and even then, Pancham has Mold Breaker Knock Off and Timburr absolutely loves setting up right in Trubbish's face. Fast Spikes are cool, but that Speed sacrifices a lot of the bulk it needs to be effective. It's hard to fit Trubbish on a team because it's too weak for offense, too frail for stall, and is too much of a set-up sweeper risk for balanced teams. Trubbish is simply trash now.
Aight what Hawk said. Trubbish is booty and Slowpoke is just too threatened by a good chunk of the meta.
Anyways I'm just chilling. Looking at the thread and HOLY BALLSACK WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE A- RANK WHAT IS THIS MONSTROSITY.
"Low"
-Carvanha
What. The. Heck.
Move Carvanha up to A rank.
This fish hits so FREAKING hard it's stupid. Between it's two STABs very little can avoid a 2HKO, and Zen Headbutt bops Croagunk on the switch. Honestly you don't even need protect in this meta if you bring it in on weakened mons or use hazard offense. When you get one speed boost up you're pretty much outspeeding everything, and at +2 you outspeed Bellsprout in sun and bop it. It's also really underrated against most standard teams as we can see here.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-220108446
Look at this standard team. Hazard setter that loses to Fish. Fighting deterrent that loses to Fish. Hazard remover that loses to Fish. Trapper that loses to Fish. Fighting type that loses to Fish. Idk what Tenta was supposed to do, but it lost to Fish lmao. It's really good at sweeping late game and can punch holes once or twice early game if needed and it's a real crime that it's ranked so low.
Also I expect some people to obviously fight back to this but please don't tell me about how it can't take a hit. I get that it's frail and not supposed to live hits but you shouldn't use it if super effective priority is still alive.
Anyways I'm just chilling. Looking at the thread and HOLY BALLSACK WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE A- RANK WHAT IS THIS MONSTROSITY.
"Low"
-Carvanha
What. The. Heck.
Move Carvanha up to A rank.
This fish hits so FREAKING hard it's stupid. Between it's two STABs very little can avoid a 2HKO, and Zen Headbutt bops Croagunk on the switch. Honestly you don't even need protect in this meta if you bring it in on weakened mons or use hazard offense. When you get one speed boost up you're pretty much outspeeding everything, and at +2 you outspeed Bellsprout in sun and bop it. It's also really underrated against most standard teams as we can see here.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-220108446
Look at this standard team. Hazard setter that loses to Fish. Fighting deterrent that loses to Fish. Hazard remover that loses to Fish. Trapper that loses to Fish. Fighting type that loses to Fish. Idk what Tenta was supposed to do, but it lost to Fish lmao. It's really good at sweeping late game and can punch holes once or twice early game if needed and it's a real crime that it's ranked so low.
Also I expect some people to obviously fight back to this but please don't tell me about how it can't take a hit. I get that it's frail and not supposed to live hits but you shouldn't use it if super effective priority is still alive.
Additionally, as I'm sure we're all aware of at this point (cough cough, snovanha), Carvanha can run an equally potent Special Attacking set to take advantage of physically defensive mons. Obviously, Vanha has a tough time taking hits. However, its immense offensive pressure outweighs its frailty in most cases.
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I'd like to suggest 1 particular change.
Meowth C -> B-
Meowth is a pokemon that has seen increased usage latelly with it's Technician niche that allows him to revenge kill quite some offensive threats with fake out+feint, along with the good coverage like knock off, aerial ace, seed bomb, u-turn and other moves that allow him to kill even bulky fighting types like mienfoo after a fake out, can carry taunt or even 90BP hidden power fighting with which it can KO things like pawniard that usually like to switch on him. His utility in the current meta, clearly outshines his frailty and makes him a valuable pokemon that can most certainly assure a revenge killing of some set ups and weakened pokemons like Zigzagoon, fletchling or abra, and assure at least a key knock off on other mon before it switches out/faints, as well as being able to cover some of it's checks/counters. It's durability and thus limited ammount of turns that is active is certainly a notable flaw, but his utility have been clearly outshining his flaws by making him a safe bet on revenge killing without losing momentum.
I feel he certainly deserves to see his niche as valuable as the wall breaking skills of Aipom, and is certainly a pokemon that feels just on the level of B- rank pokemon, which are notable pokemon with particular niches that aren't exactly outperformed by any other pokemon, but still have notable flaws that prevent them for being better ranks.
Meowth C -> B-
Meowth is a pokemon that has seen increased usage latelly with it's Technician niche that allows him to revenge kill quite some offensive threats with fake out+feint, along with the good coverage like knock off, aerial ace, seed bomb, u-turn and other moves that allow him to kill even bulky fighting types like mienfoo after a fake out, can carry taunt or even 90BP hidden power fighting with which it can KO things like pawniard that usually like to switch on him. His utility in the current meta, clearly outshines his frailty and makes him a valuable pokemon that can most certainly assure a revenge killing of some set ups and weakened pokemons like Zigzagoon, fletchling or abra, and assure at least a key knock off on other mon before it switches out/faints, as well as being able to cover some of it's checks/counters. It's durability and thus limited ammount of turns that is active is certainly a notable flaw, but his utility have been clearly outshining his flaws by making him a safe bet on revenge killing without losing momentum.
I feel he certainly deserves to see his niche as valuable as the wall breaking skills of Aipom, and is certainly a pokemon that feels just on the level of B- rank pokemon, which are notable pokemon with particular niches that aren't exactly outperformed by any other pokemon, but still have notable flaws that prevent them for being better ranks.
My problem with that is that I think Aipom gets about 90% of those moves and the same ability with better offensive stats save for the 5 BST total in speed. Meowth does sit at the really good speed tier of 19 but it doesn't have enough punch force to back it up with a pitiful attacking stat of 14 with a neutral nature and 15 if a boosting nature, I don't have calcs atm but this is just some general views on it compared to the other Normal type that possesses a similar movepool and the same ability. (Along with Skill Link as an alternative.)
Edit: Nvm, thought Aipom was in the 18 speed tier.
Edit 2: Well I'm pretty fucking stupid, I thought of Ambipom. Scratch this whole post rofl. Although tbf Aipom does still have more punch force behind its moves with SKill Link.
Additionally, as I'm sure we're all aware of at this point, Carvanha can run an equally potent Special Attacking set to take advantage of physically defensive mons. Obviously, Vanha has a tough time taking hits. However, its immense offensive pressure outweighs its frailty in most cases.
Carvanha A- --> A
Oh I forgot uhm SNOVANHA PEOPLE?
Honestly you guys remember when you came back with a bad report card for the 2nd time after your dad told you not to and he slapped you so hard he straightened that snaggle tooth you had? That's kinda how hard Fishy hits.
I agree that the rabid fish should go up in ranking, but you should describe some of the weaknesses it has (problem I have to sort out, sorry for being a hypocrite) before just praising it completely and saying all of its strong suits, you said it was frail and dies to priority, but go more in depth imo. I don't have enough time to write up a whole analysis for the rabid fish, so... sorry.
But, that's it! Those are the only downsides to using Fish! It has prio, speed, good power, a damn sweet typing, everything an offensive mon wants in this meta
I guess fighting types are pretty lame tho
._. Sorry for the shitty one liner but wow rofl. Although tbf I don't think a fighting type wants to switch in on even a crunch then get ganked by Aqua jet, esp Mienfoo without Fake Out, although Mienfoo doesn't have prio (besides fake out).
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It has feint but it's not gonna run both. Also ZHB is a clean OHKO after crunch. There's no need to go into how frail it is bc EVERYONE KNOWS how frail it is. That's basically his only downside. His one hard check dies to his best coverage move so there's that. Carv neeeeeds to go up.
After seeing Abra in the roomintro and then discovering it was A+, I decided to make this post.
¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿Why??????????????
Abra can run two sets. Focus sash and Life Orb. Life Orb is good as a wall breaker which can sometimes bluff sash, if the opponent hasn't figured out by damage rolls that the Abra is actually LO, but, like, big whoop, that's it???? It still has the same downfall of regular Abra while also losing its niche as a 1-time stop to most set up sweepers. It cannot come into play unless on a slow volt turn or on something's fainting. This means it already requires quite a bit of support, certainly not something an A+ mon should need.
Secondly, in addition to too much support being required for Abra, it has limited use. Focus Sash doesn't have enough power to be able to kill important things like Timburr, Foongus, slow bulky Mienfoo (even though that's not really as common this meta as it was in Misdreavus it's still a thing), BJuice Archen, and Fletchling (good spreads, at least). Those are the things in the S and A ranks that Abra is supposed to really threaten immediately, yet, if it's holding a Focus Sash, it can't even fulfill its own role. Nice fucking job, Abra. Additionally, Focus Sash Abra is generally viewed as a safety net, right? If you're playing it like that then you're literally playing 5-6 because it's giving no team support minus sitting there waiting for something like Omanyte to set up so it can Energy Ball it, because if Abra comes into play earlier, you can bet your ass any good Omanyte team will bring a Stunky/Pawniard/any other pursuit mon up to fuck Abra's ass so bad it can't even do its one job anymore.
As for LO Abra, well, its only use is pretending to be sash. Except, when it actually nets the kills that it's supposed to (hahahh nice try SASHbra!!!), then it's a dead giveaway that you're not sash and now you're playing with something as frail as a sheet of thin ice that no longer functions in its other role of checking set up sweepers. So, it's a trade off between two options: acting as a shitty glass cannon or acting as a crappy answer to set up sweepers.
All in all, I'm obviously over-exaggerating Abra's shortcomings. It's a good 'mon for sure, that's why it's up in the A ranks, but I just honestly think it needs to be brought down to A, maybe even A-, as it just often times can't pull its already light weight on teams that have no time to slow down.
¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿Why??????????????
Abra can run two sets. Focus sash and Life Orb. Life Orb is good as a wall breaker which can sometimes bluff sash, if the opponent hasn't figured out by damage rolls that the Abra is actually LO, but, like, big whoop, that's it???? It still has the same downfall of regular Abra while also losing its niche as a 1-time stop to most set up sweepers. It cannot come into play unless on a slow volt turn or on something's fainting. This means it already requires quite a bit of support, certainly not something an A+ mon should need.
Secondly, in addition to too much support being required for Abra, it has limited use. Focus Sash doesn't have enough power to be able to kill important things like Timburr, Foongus, slow bulky Mienfoo (even though that's not really as common this meta as it was in Misdreavus it's still a thing), BJuice Archen, and Fletchling (good spreads, at least). Those are the things in the S and A ranks that Abra is supposed to really threaten immediately, yet, if it's holding a Focus Sash, it can't even fulfill its own role. Nice fucking job, Abra. Additionally, Focus Sash Abra is generally viewed as a safety net, right? If you're playing it like that then you're literally playing 5-6 because it's giving no team support minus sitting there waiting for something like Omanyte to set up so it can Energy Ball it, because if Abra comes into play earlier, you can bet your ass any good Omanyte team will bring a Stunky/Pawniard/any other pursuit mon up to fuck Abra's ass so bad it can't even do its one job anymore.
As for LO Abra, well, its only use is pretending to be sash. Except, when it actually nets the kills that it's supposed to (hahahh nice try SASHbra!!!), then it's a dead giveaway that you're not sash and now you're playing with something as frail as a sheet of thin ice that no longer functions in its other role of checking set up sweepers. So, it's a trade off between two options: acting as a shitty glass cannon or acting as a crappy answer to set up sweepers.
All in all, I'm obviously over-exaggerating Abra's shortcomings. It's a good 'mon for sure, that's why it's up in the A ranks, but I just honestly think it needs to be brought down to A, maybe even A-, as it just often times can't pull its already light weight on teams that have no time to slow down.
I can't tell if you're trolling for not, anyone whos actually played vs abra understands its one of the worst things to face late game, and the lack of realization of how battles work is astounding. The 5 mons you mentioned are all incredibly easy to wear down or get their eviolite removed, as for mons like timburr, its their purpose to check the strongest knock off user in the game, abra isn't supposed to be a wallbreaker with the sash set, nor will it be out that early in the game most of the time, it being there is pressure enough. Its role is a check to set up sweepers and a strong 19 speeder... not to mention a lot of mons can be considering impossible to bring it such as gastly and teddiursa. Any good team should have answers to stunky/pursuit antics since abra only really should come in for the set up sweeper in that scenario.
LO abra is amazing, and the fact it can bluff sashbra by getting KOs on mons sashbra would is not deniable. It also wallbreaks stuff like porygon/spritzee that like sashbra wouldn't be able to leading to a huge hole in the opps team. also sub on a sack and clean the opposing team sometimes.
Yes I have a complete and utter lack of understanding of how battles work. Please inform me with your oh-so-abundant knowledge, km. I do so much appreciate your superiority complex that you've shown me sooo many times :)). Yes, those mons can be worn down, but what can fs Abra do about it besides sit back and watch unless it wants to risk its sash? And I never claimed that fs Abra was a wall breaker, I was just claiming that it can't even instantly deal with what it wants to threaten. Is that not one of the reasons why Fletchling was moved down? Also, cool, a wall breaker can clean once a team is sufficiently weakened. Better move cran or darumaka up to A+ too then! I mean, they're just as threatening damage-wise. Cranidos can actually switch in on stuff too like Fletchling's acrobatics! Woah Crani for S rank man!!!! As for your other point about Gastly/Teddiursa not being able to switch in, Gastly has an immunity to fighting type moves, so if you predict one, then it can get in scotch free. And, y'know, comparing Abra to Teddiursa just kinda seals the deal that Abra is overranked, don't you think, km?
I'm not opposed to Abra dropping, but I really think putting it in A- is just understating Abra's positives. As far as the Sash set goes, it really doesn't need to be preserved until something sets up. Given its high speed, Abra can capitalize on any weakened threat that lacks priority by forcing the opponent to sac it or have something else take the hit, which happens more than you'd think. Not every team is going to have a pursuit user either. I really wouldn't want to run Stunky/Houndour (Pawniard is too unreliable with Pursuit unless it has scarf, but then it can't switch in) on every team that includes a setup sweeper, and I don't think you would want to either. And those mons that you mentioned do get worn down easily enough, especially through Knock Off, that it isn't much of a concern to an Abra user.
ok sure attack me to make yourself feel better ok. It threatens what it needs to, set up sweepers, and it holds the coveted 19 speed tier and one of the highest spas in the game, you cannot compare that to crandios and darumaka and I'm not even wasting my time telling you obvious stuff. Lastly fletchling had a million viable answers to it and is still amazing, just not S rank, stop bringing up mons I've tried to raise/drop to try to mess with me because its just flawed logic, gastly can't KO fighters without shitty dazzling gleam so its risking a KO from knock off. Comparing it to teddiursa shows how very few mons even have comparisons to it and shows how unique it is, on top of everything it already is.
Pick a fight with me when you actually wanna make points and not sling shots at me.
Shortly, I think actual Abra rank is right and suitable. With its 19 speed, it can outspeed all unboosted metagame unless Diglett and Elekid (Voltorb is extremely rare). And it's not trivial, it's a important feature in LC.
It has two set. Right, this is true. But they are both lethal. LO Abra (with Substitute to preserve it from Sucker Punch) is a threat to opponent mons. With Focus Sash (with its Magic Guard) Abra cannot be OHKOed. Psychic is perfect against common Fighting opponent; Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball and Hidden Power Fighting can hit hard with a good coverage. Because its SpA is 20, so good enough to be destructive, above all against weak opponent in later game.
It has two set. Right, this is true. But they are both lethal. LO Abra (with Substitute to preserve it from Sucker Punch) is a threat to opponent mons. With Focus Sash (with its Magic Guard) Abra cannot be OHKOed. Psychic is perfect against common Fighting opponent; Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball and Hidden Power Fighting can hit hard with a good coverage. Because its SpA is 20, so good enough to be destructive, above all against weak opponent in later game.
By the strict criteria, Abra is A+. It needs no support to be used, runs super fast and hits quite hard, has a niche occupied exclusively by itself in stopping sweepers without skill. That's the criteria for A-rank; when i look at A+, i'm thinking about a mon's influence on a game consistently, and Abra certainly has that. It can make the dreaded concept of "playing well" nearly irrelevant vs setup sweepers, oh and good luck outrunning it twice to KO lategame. It's a shitty influence on the meta and just cancerous in general, but in terms of sheer utility it's A+.
As extremely fucking obnoxious as KM's superiority complex is, he's absolutely correct in that Abra earns its place. It is an immediate answer to countless sweepers and other win conditions, operating almost without fail. Its niche as an insurance policy is universally useful for virtually any team, and the fact that it doesn't need support allows it to fit on virtually every team.
So tell me: does Cranidos compare?
I think if there's anything that can be questioned in the A-Rank, it would be Tirtouga
"Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits."
Let's zoom in on the second sentence there. I believe that Tirt's flaws are not easily overlooked, as their weaknesses are just exposed in the current metagame. Most people know that I don't like unreliable and volatile strategies, and prefer safer mons cuz I don't have that much swag. Anyway, let's go into Tirt's flaws, and why they are easily exploitable in the metagame.
ALRIGHT TIRT
Next would have to be that it is reliant on its item. If you run the defensive set, Knocking off its BJ makes it really fkin hard to setup, since it could get wrecked by priority (unless you're a mindgame god with Aqua Jet, like TUO) Berry Juice is also easily nullified most of the time after Rocks are setup, since its Sturdy will not be usable. It's Eviolite set has problems as well. When it's evio gets knocked off, it is much worse at taking hits, and all Tirt(defensive) really contributes outside of Rocks for a team is 70% chance of burning the opponent with Scald. While the 70% chance is nice, Eviolite tirt gets easily worn down by hazards, status, and just repeated attacks at it due to its lack of recovery, minimal offensive presence (at least with evio ver.) and its typing. This is even more relevant when it gets Knocked off, which is shitty. Tirt really hates Knock off.
Metagame trends like Pumpkaboo and RestTalk Skrelp make it really hard for Tirt to do shit, especially when Pumpkaboo can make sure hazards stay on the field. Tirtouga definitely finds its place on a team, and belongs in that A area, but I believe it is in the lower area of A-rank, which is well, A-.
I know it has been discussed a bit, but I just wanted to put in my opinion I guess
EDIT:
I have proof that i'm not a biased (BAN ME PLEASE) vs Tirtouga
I would also like to nominate my formatting skills to S
"Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits."
Let's zoom in on the second sentence there. I believe that Tirt's flaws are not easily overlooked, as their weaknesses are just exposed in the current metagame. Most people know that I don't like unreliable and volatile strategies, and prefer safer mons cuz I don't have that much swag. Anyway, let's go into Tirt's flaws, and why they are easily exploitable in the metagame.
ALRIGHT TIRT
- TIRT LOSES TO LOTS OF STUFF, THAT'S NOT EASY TO OVERLOOK
- TIRT IS EXTREMELY RELIANT ON HIS ITEM
- EVERYONE JUST SWEEPS BETTER THAN HIM
- HIS DEFENSIVE SET HAS NO RECOVERY
- PUMPKABOO
- LIKE SRSLY FUCK STATUS
Next would have to be that it is reliant on its item. If you run the defensive set, Knocking off its BJ makes it really fkin hard to setup, since it could get wrecked by priority (unless you're a mindgame god with Aqua Jet, like TUO) Berry Juice is also easily nullified most of the time after Rocks are setup, since its Sturdy will not be usable. It's Eviolite set has problems as well. When it's evio gets knocked off, it is much worse at taking hits, and all Tirt(defensive) really contributes outside of Rocks for a team is 70% chance of burning the opponent with Scald. While the 70% chance is nice, Eviolite tirt gets easily worn down by hazards, status, and just repeated attacks at it due to its lack of recovery, minimal offensive presence (at least with evio ver.) and its typing. This is even more relevant when it gets Knocked off, which is shitty. Tirt really hates Knock off.
Metagame trends like Pumpkaboo and RestTalk Skrelp make it really hard for Tirt to do shit, especially when Pumpkaboo can make sure hazards stay on the field. Tirtouga definitely finds its place on a team, and belongs in that A area, but I believe it is in the lower area of A-rank, which is well, A-.
I know it has been discussed a bit, but I just wanted to put in my opinion I guess
EDIT:
I have proof that i'm not a biased (BAN ME PLEASE) vs Tirtouga
I would also like to nominate my formatting skills to S
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Snivy can stay where it is. Even with Contrary Leaf Storm, it's really easy to wall since all the good Hidden Powers mean it can't run 17 Speed. Glare is great though.
Purrloin's already in C lol
I think Carv is fine in A-. its extreme frailty basically means it dies if it doesn't KO whatever it's up against, which means it eneds a pretty good amouint of team support to beat common threats like Ferrospritz, Timburr, etc.
I don't like Abra but it belongs in A+ regardless.
Hawkstar outlined everything pretty well about why Slowpoke and Stunky should stay where they are.
Archen should not drop. It's incredibly versatile, with offensive and bulkier sets being equally dangerous. It's also one of the best hazard control mons and Fletchling checks out there.
Anyway, I'd like to nominate Rhyhorn for C. A Rock Polish set is a scary cleaner thanks to how good STAB EdgeQuake, especially with Rock Blast and 18 Attack, is in LC. This essentially gives it a free 4th slot to work with. It can run a variety of things: Swords Dance for even more power, Fire Fang to break Ferro, or even Metal Burst, which works well in tandem with Rhyhorn's excellent 85/95 physical bulk to surprise things like Timburr. That being said, it still doesn't get a whole lot of setup opportunities due to its poor typing defensively and lackluster Special Defense, and consequently requires quite a bit of support to live up to its full potential, but the sheer power it brings to the table I believe warrants C rank.
Purrloin's already in C lol
I think Carv is fine in A-. its extreme frailty basically means it dies if it doesn't KO whatever it's up against, which means it eneds a pretty good amouint of team support to beat common threats like Ferrospritz, Timburr, etc.
I don't like Abra but it belongs in A+ regardless.
Hawkstar outlined everything pretty well about why Slowpoke and Stunky should stay where they are.
Archen should not drop. It's incredibly versatile, with offensive and bulkier sets being equally dangerous. It's also one of the best hazard control mons and Fletchling checks out there.
Anyway, I'd like to nominate Rhyhorn for C. A Rock Polish set is a scary cleaner thanks to how good STAB EdgeQuake, especially with Rock Blast and 18 Attack, is in LC. This essentially gives it a free 4th slot to work with. It can run a variety of things: Swords Dance for even more power, Fire Fang to break Ferro, or even Metal Burst, which works well in tandem with Rhyhorn's excellent 85/95 physical bulk to surprise things like Timburr. That being said, it still doesn't get a whole lot of setup opportunities due to its poor typing defensively and lackluster Special Defense, and consequently requires quite a bit of support to live up to its full potential, but the sheer power it brings to the table I believe warrants C rank.
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