I mean it is a fair comparison i wouldn't exactly disagree with u, but I think that Kyruem B remained in OU because of those flaws. Giratina has a lot of things going for it outside of that. On top of that, Kyruem B can hold items, so there's that too.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghosts [Giratina-O remains in Ubers - check the OP]
- Thread starter haunter
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LOL this is epic
btw i legit think this wont be a 100% ban. i mean, giratina-o is weaker than stuff like latios and garchomp, can only use a single item, has middling speed and common weakness. maybe having aura sphere to punish ttar is gonna push it over, but who knows? i don't think this is a clearly broken mon, if anything kyurem-b is not even a top 10 OU mon.
btw i legit think this wont be a 100% ban. i mean, giratina-o is weaker than stuff like latios and garchomp, can only use a single item, has middling speed and common weakness. maybe having aura sphere to punish ttar is gonna push it over, but who knows? i don't think this is a clearly broken mon, if anything kyurem-b is not even a top 10 OU mon.
I'm extremely confused by this suspect test and the precedent it sets for the metagame. I liked what Doughboy said about reversing the broken mentality but the fact Giratina-O is coming up before things like Aegislash is ridiculous.
This thing is noticeably bulkier than Aegi, with phenomenal mixed attacking stats and some fantastic utility moves like Defog and wisp. I reject the notion that it's healthy for the tier; it's worrying that influential players are suggesting Giratina-O should drop to prevent the ban of mons like Lando-I. It's a dressed up broken checking broken, and if Aegislash is too centralising for the current metagame then under no circumstances is Giratina-O going to fit in without becoming a ridiculous dominant force.
It can be EVd to do whatever role is necessary and I can see plenty of checks being completely dominated by other sets. It can't be compared to Kyurem-B because Kyurem-B has an abysmal typing and a stealth rock weakness. The fact that it doesn't even take full damage from knock off is just a bonus. Sure, Giratina-O would be a fantastic glue that solves the matchup problem but it's going to do far more harm than good and I will be laddering to ensure it stays where it belongs.
This thing is noticeably bulkier than Aegi, with phenomenal mixed attacking stats and some fantastic utility moves like Defog and wisp. I reject the notion that it's healthy for the tier; it's worrying that influential players are suggesting Giratina-O should drop to prevent the ban of mons like Lando-I. It's a dressed up broken checking broken, and if Aegislash is too centralising for the current metagame then under no circumstances is Giratina-O going to fit in without becoming a ridiculous dominant force.
It can be EVd to do whatever role is necessary and I can see plenty of checks being completely dominated by other sets. It can't be compared to Kyurem-B because Kyurem-B has an abysmal typing and a stealth rock weakness. The fact that it doesn't even take full damage from knock off is just a bonus. Sure, Giratina-O would be a fantastic glue that solves the matchup problem but it's going to do far more harm than good and I will be laddering to ensure it stays where it belongs.
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I am really surprised by the decision of bringing Giratina-O back down into OU.
On a serious note, however, as said in the OP, it is stated that the meta right now is abundant of defensively oriented teams and I would like to point out some things that I realize will further aggravate this issue instead of improving it.
Firstly, with the recent rise of Starmie from UU to OU as a premier rapid spinner that helps to deal with common hazard setters such as Garchomp, Heatran and Hippowdon, Starmie found a spot in a lot of teams as a Rapid Spinner to get rid of entry hazards set up by the opponent while still being a relatively good counter to common OU threats such as Keldeo as it resists both STABs and can retaliate with a STAB Psyshock. However with the presence of Giratina-O being in OU, it will provide defensive oriented teams that relies on hazards to wear down the opponent with a reliable spin-blocker. Currently the only spin blocker in the tier is Mega Sableye which takes up a mega slot, instead, with Giratina-O it provides spin blocking capability, similar bulk to Mega Sableye and most importantly a check to Mega Charizard Y and Landorus-I which is a major issue to teams from across the spectrum. It's a check as said because it can be worn down due to the lack of recovery from item/moves unless it runs Rest.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina-O in Sun: 113-133 (22.4 - 26.3%) -- 16.4% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina-O: 121-143 (24 - 28.3%) -- 95.6% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 117-140 (23.2 - 27.7%) -- 79% chance to 4HKO
Secondly, with access to Will-O-Wisp and Defog, Giratina-O is one that can help defensive oriented teams to Defog without fearing of opposing teams seizing the opportunity to get a defiant boost as they may fear being burnt. Apart from Will-O-Wisp, Giratina also have a great move pool with moves like Earthquake/Earth power and Aura Sphere that helps to deal with such threats if necessary.
Lastly, with its already crazy defensive stats, Giratina-O is able to further boost its SpDef and already crazy 120SpAtk to greater heights with access to Calm Mind and diverse move pool. Giratina-O presents itself as a great win-condition to most unprepared.
With all this attributes, Giratina-O will provide bulky offensive or defensive oriented teams a great asset that I might deem as a little over powering.
On a serious note, however, as said in the OP, it is stated that the meta right now is abundant of defensively oriented teams and I would like to point out some things that I realize will further aggravate this issue instead of improving it.
Firstly, with the recent rise of Starmie from UU to OU as a premier rapid spinner that helps to deal with common hazard setters such as Garchomp, Heatran and Hippowdon, Starmie found a spot in a lot of teams as a Rapid Spinner to get rid of entry hazards set up by the opponent while still being a relatively good counter to common OU threats such as Keldeo as it resists both STABs and can retaliate with a STAB Psyshock. However with the presence of Giratina-O being in OU, it will provide defensive oriented teams that relies on hazards to wear down the opponent with a reliable spin-blocker. Currently the only spin blocker in the tier is Mega Sableye which takes up a mega slot, instead, with Giratina-O it provides spin blocking capability, similar bulk to Mega Sableye and most importantly a check to Mega Charizard Y and Landorus-I which is a major issue to teams from across the spectrum. It's a check as said because it can be worn down due to the lack of recovery from item/moves unless it runs Rest.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina-O in Sun: 113-133 (22.4 - 26.3%) -- 16.4% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina-O: 121-143 (24 - 28.3%) -- 95.6% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 117-140 (23.2 - 27.7%) -- 79% chance to 4HKO
Secondly, with access to Will-O-Wisp and Defog, Giratina-O is one that can help defensive oriented teams to Defog without fearing of opposing teams seizing the opportunity to get a defiant boost as they may fear being burnt. Apart from Will-O-Wisp, Giratina also have a great move pool with moves like Earthquake/Earth power and Aura Sphere that helps to deal with such threats if necessary.
Lastly, with its already crazy defensive stats, Giratina-O is able to further boost its SpDef and already crazy 120SpAtk to greater heights with access to Calm Mind and diverse move pool. Giratina-O presents itself as a great win-condition to most unprepared.
With all this attributes, Giratina-O will provide bulky offensive or defensive oriented teams a great asset that I might deem as a little over powering.
If ubers is a technically considered a tier and not a ban list anymore, if Giritina-O is "ubers" by usage, aren't we not allowed to just let it back into OU through a suspect.
And no Im not just complaining, I posted my 2 cents about Tina earlier in the thread.
And no Im not just complaining, I posted my 2 cents about Tina earlier in the thread.
Unpopular opinion but I don't think it should be allowed. It's basically Kyurem black (90 speed tier, bulk, unwallable coverage, checks so much things thanks to it's typing) but the thing is, it doesn't have a nearly useless physical attack. Most of the moves Kyurem uses standardly are special. But instead of having 170 attack, Giratina basically has those BS's in bulk. Basically pushing it to the point where it's bulk and typing makes things near unviable.
i love how we're all praising gira as our lord and saviour that will balance out this "shithole" of an ou tier we play, but honestly, unbanning this thing is not a good idea. it blanket checks 2/3 of the meta. it has insane offensive and defensive presence, and it is already an immediately centralizing pokemon in the metagame. ill go back to the first thing i brought up: blanket checking half the meta. Srn brought up a good point a few pages ago and listed a crapton of mons that giratina can switch into. the list is pretty fucking huge. keldeo and lando i are two that come up to me off the top of my head, two s rank pokemon. now add in a good majority of the a+, a, and a- ranks. gira checks / counters all that shit. ring a bell? yeah, it does. aegislash. its the same thing. it blanket checks half the meta, is overcentralizing as fuck, and has literally zero downsides to it being used. its speed isnt even that bad either; base 90 is somewhat decent and even if you run a 0 hp full offensive spread, you outpace whats needed and live a shiton of hits due to your sheer natural bulk (252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 360-426 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO <- rofl mega diancie cant even ohko 0 hp variants). this thing also has like a million different sets so theres no telling exactly what youre facing untill you actually face it.
its great that having giratina on your team relieves a lot of pressure from a building standpoint, but at what cost? having the entire tier revolve around you? sorry peeps, but thats not something i want to deal with. id much rather deal with the 20+ wallbreakers and sweepers in ou than have one mon do it for me while simultaneously being the center of the universe. gira might seem great in theory but it is not what ou needs. if i decide to get off my lazy ass and get reqs ill definitely vote to keep it in ubers.
sorry this post was all over the place. tl;dr: read the fucking post. its not an essay like a majority of my other posts.
its great that having giratina on your team relieves a lot of pressure from a building standpoint, but at what cost? having the entire tier revolve around you? sorry peeps, but thats not something i want to deal with. id much rather deal with the 20+ wallbreakers and sweepers in ou than have one mon do it for me while simultaneously being the center of the universe. gira might seem great in theory but it is not what ou needs. if i decide to get off my lazy ass and get reqs ill definitely vote to keep it in ubers.
sorry this post was all over the place. tl;dr: read the fucking post. its not an essay like a majority of my other posts.
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Well... i certainly did not see that one coming. While it might fix some problems with the current Meta it could aswell make it worse...
Currently too many threats are roaming the meta, including Lando, Mega Gross and some fairies. While it certainly checks a lot of common and powerfull threats, it itself is a powerfull mon.
Dual boosted stab which is more or less unressisted together with a bulk that makes Mega Gross look squishy... maybe not the best idea to let that thing back to OU. Oh and its immune to entry hazards AND doesn't loose its item after Knock Off.
Small overview off the movepool
physical:
D-claw
D-tail
Eq
Outrage
Shadow Force
Shadow Sneak
Stone Edge
Iron Head
special:
Aurasphere
Draco Meteor
Earthpower
Shadowball
Thunder/Thunderbolt
psychic
dark pulse
Icy Wind
misc:
defog
twave
toxic
whisp
sub
magic coat
Some of those are a gimmick, sure, but even after removing those it has a vast movepool considering its well balanced stats.
Its safe to say that there is no safe switchin against this monster as it can choose its own counters and checks at will. If only its speed would not be so terrible low for OU standards (base 90) I would certainly disagree with an unban and laugh hard at everyone trying to tell me otherwise. Base 90 can be revenged and there are certainly quite a few of OU Mons who can do so.
If I have the time I will play on the test ladder and see for myself how strong its influence is on the meta (which I believe can't get much worse).
@ Swegmastergeneral
Kyu-B has a horrible second type...can't say that about Gira.
Currently too many threats are roaming the meta, including Lando, Mega Gross and some fairies. While it certainly checks a lot of common and powerfull threats, it itself is a powerfull mon.
Dual boosted stab which is more or less unressisted together with a bulk that makes Mega Gross look squishy... maybe not the best idea to let that thing back to OU. Oh and its immune to entry hazards AND doesn't loose its item after Knock Off.
Small overview off the movepool
physical:
D-claw
D-tail
Eq
Outrage
Shadow Force
Shadow Sneak
Stone Edge
Iron Head
special:
Aurasphere
Draco Meteor
Earthpower
Shadowball
Thunder/Thunderbolt
psychic
dark pulse
Icy Wind
misc:
defog
twave
toxic
whisp
sub
magic coat
Some of those are a gimmick, sure, but even after removing those it has a vast movepool considering its well balanced stats.
Its safe to say that there is no safe switchin against this monster as it can choose its own counters and checks at will. If only its speed would not be so terrible low for OU standards (base 90) I would certainly disagree with an unban and laugh hard at everyone trying to tell me otherwise. Base 90 can be revenged and there are certainly quite a few of OU Mons who can do so.
If I have the time I will play on the test ladder and see for myself how strong its influence is on the meta (which I believe can't get much worse).
@ Swegmastergeneral
Kyu-B has a horrible second type...can't say that about Gira.
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I Really can't see Giratina-O balanced at ORAS OU metagame
A Real combination from 150/100/100 + Ghost Type + Levitate can tank almost everything. With the combination of Calm Mind + Will-o-Wisp it makes it Impossible to Kill. And he is not Limitaded in his Bulk Dragon + Ghost is a real offensive Threat, Like Lati-Twins, his Draco Meteor is a real Nuke and Shadow Ball can Hit hard at Fairy Types, Making ''Chekers'' Like gengar or Azumarill not Safe-Switches. If he really Becomes OU, I Cannot see a balanced Team Builder (You need at least 2 or 3 pokemons to Check all his Movesets, Like Greninja) Do not make it OU pleaese
EDIT: Do not bring Brokenmons to check other Brokenmons
A Real combination from 150/100/100 + Ghost Type + Levitate can tank almost everything. With the combination of Calm Mind + Will-o-Wisp it makes it Impossible to Kill. And he is not Limitaded in his Bulk Dragon + Ghost is a real offensive Threat, Like Lati-Twins, his Draco Meteor is a real Nuke and Shadow Ball can Hit hard at Fairy Types, Making ''Chekers'' Like gengar or Azumarill not Safe-Switches. If he really Becomes OU, I Cannot see a balanced Team Builder (You need at least 2 or 3 pokemons to Check all his Movesets, Like Greninja) Do not make it OU pleaese
EDIT: Do not bring Brokenmons to check other Brokenmons
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Ubers is not a tier dictated by usage, it's simply a tier that allows for the use of any pokemon that isn't Mega Rayquaza that is legally available in the games. If usage was used Lati@s would most likely be banned from OU too, just to cite one example.
For my initial thoughts on Giratina-O, it's a fantastic glue for a lot of teams, but after using it I was kind of underwhelmed. It checks so many things in theory, but the absolute lack of recovery, I use the term absolute because not being able to hold Leftovers is huge, mean that realistically, it can't continuously check these threats throughout the game without some form of Wish support. It can only come in on a Lando-i Psychic with rocks up so many times for example. Expanding on why lacking Leftovers is so huge is pretty simple, not being able to offset residual damage in any way really chews Gira's lifespan, for example, on paper on threat you could use it to answer is Keldeo, huge bulk, immune to one STAB and resistant to the other, sounds great right up until you get burnt by Scald and are losing 1/8th of your health to burn and another 1/8th to rocks when you come in to check it, not to mention you're slower than it which means you have to eat 2 hits. I honestly think this mon is even more a victim of the afflictions that plague typical blanket checks in the metagame (Lando-T, Rotom-W etc.) in that it gets worn down incredibly quickly which results in it not actually being able to check the threats it's supposed to as well as it does on paper.
The main question will be whether this mon becomes overcentralising in that it's strictly dictating what is viable and what is not, however this isn't really a question anyone can answer just a few hours after the test has been announced, we need to see a more settled ladder to even be able to begin to answer this question. For now I'm just going to have fun trying out a completely shaken up metagame.
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I've been trying out this set with scolipede on the ladder:
Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Sleep Talk
- Shadow Ball
- Rest
- Calm Mind
Basicly the crocune of OU. If you lack phazing it's extremely difficult to stop. If scolipede fails to baton pass, giratina itself can handle things on it's own.
I don't have too many good replays since most of the opponents I got matched up with had teams consisting of UU pokemon.. -_- but I do have this one replay.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-221660123
Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Sleep Talk
- Shadow Ball
- Rest
- Calm Mind
Basicly the crocune of OU. If you lack phazing it's extremely difficult to stop. If scolipede fails to baton pass, giratina itself can handle things on it's own.
I don't have too many good replays since most of the opponents I got matched up with had teams consisting of UU pokemon.. -_- but I do have this one replay.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-221660123
First things first they're DPP characteristics, so rather outdated.
I'm yet to see it sweep what I'd class a well made team, it's done work offensively sure but I'd say well built teams will have ways to prevent it effortlessly sweeping. The most likely characteristic for it to fall into though.
How is it walling and stalling out significant portions of the metagame with no recovery and a pretty subpar base Speed which means it has to eat 2 hits every time it comes in vs a threat? Maybe with Wish support but at that point it needs support to do so and doesn't fit the characteristic anyway.
I'm not even sure how you can think it fits here, the most team support it generally offers that I've seen so far is spreading burns and defogging, which frankly is nothing new for the metagame.
Don't have time to ladder for this, so I guess I'll state my opinion here. While I admire the decision of the council to try something new, I don't think this is the right step for the meta. Will Giratina help solve the team matchup issue? Maybe, but due to its insane bulk and movepool, this thing is going to be more splashable than Landorus-T in early ORAS. Levitate is only the icing on the cake, making it unable to be worn down with Spikes + Toxic Spikes. It is a blanket check to 60% of the meta and doesn't take up a mega slot. This thing may be more centralizing than Aegislash simply because of it's checking abilities. Please people, make the right decision here.
Alright here's why I think Giratina-O will be just fine in OU:
BST-wise, I cannot agree more that Giratina-O is a VERY intimidating pokemon with 150 / 100 / 100 defenses, and workable 120 / 120 offenses.
However: he's actually much more fragile than he appears at first sight.
Defensively, Giratina-O has several incredibly debilitating weaknesses (ICE / DARK / FAIRY / DRAGON / GHOST) that allow him to be 2HKO'd by several pokemon, including Bisharp, Mamoswine, Azumarill, Garchomp, Mega Gardevoir, Gengar, Mega Altaria, and Tyranitar (all without setup or choice items) which means he isn't going to be switching in and out all willy-nilly during battle. He's also OHKO'd by Latios and Kyurem-B and helplessly walled by Chansey, Clefable, and Skarmory. He's also forced to hold a Griseous Orb, which deprives him of any form of passive recovery. Not to mention, he doesn't even have a reliable recovery move, save pain-split, which is not even close to viable on a pokemon with Base 150 HP.
Offensively, for powerful STABS he relies on Draco Meteor and Phantom Force which can both be worked around with ease since the former halves his Sp. Atk. and the ladder is a 2-turn attack. Not only that, his offensive stats aren't exactly scary; let's put him into perspective: a Hydreigon (125 Sp Atk) is more powerful than Giratina-O (120 Sp Atk). To add insult to injury, he doesn't even get fire blast or flamethrower to round out his dragon-fire coverage combo... tragic.
Despite all aforementioned weaknesses, Giratina-O can fit into OU well and deserves to be there: he makes quite the utility pokemon, or can even act as a tank that can hit back with some real muscle. He has two major qualities going for him: he'll be the bulkiest Will-O-Wisp user and the bulkiest Defog user out there. He has access to Dragon Tail / Roar and all three status inducing moves: Toxic, Thunder Wave, and WOW, which means he can spread status with ease. Apart from that, he can hit respectably hard (especially when his STABS are boosted by Griseous Orb). He can also run a Calm Mind set, having access to Dragon Pulse, Shadow Ball, Earth Power, Energy Ball, Thunderbolt, Dark Pulse, and Aura Sphere. Another notable quality is access to priority in Shadow Sneak. Lastly, he acts as a great check to the a-little-too-common Landorus-T, throws all psychic types (like Slowbro) for a loop, and can serve as a good fighting check since a Knock Off used on Giratina doesn't get boosted by the Griseous Orb.
Anyways, that's my rant: I really believe this lil' guy will be good for the metagame and we should let him in!
BST-wise, I cannot agree more that Giratina-O is a VERY intimidating pokemon with 150 / 100 / 100 defenses, and workable 120 / 120 offenses.
However: he's actually much more fragile than he appears at first sight.
Defensively, Giratina-O has several incredibly debilitating weaknesses (ICE / DARK / FAIRY / DRAGON / GHOST) that allow him to be 2HKO'd by several pokemon, including Bisharp, Mamoswine, Azumarill, Garchomp, Mega Gardevoir, Gengar, Mega Altaria, and Tyranitar (all without setup or choice items) which means he isn't going to be switching in and out all willy-nilly during battle. He's also OHKO'd by Latios and Kyurem-B and helplessly walled by Chansey, Clefable, and Skarmory. He's also forced to hold a Griseous Orb, which deprives him of any form of passive recovery. Not to mention, he doesn't even have a reliable recovery move, save pain-split, which is not even close to viable on a pokemon with Base 150 HP.
Offensively, for powerful STABS he relies on Draco Meteor and Phantom Force which can both be worked around with ease since the former halves his Sp. Atk. and the ladder is a 2-turn attack. Not only that, his offensive stats aren't exactly scary; let's put him into perspective: a Hydreigon (125 Sp Atk) is more powerful than Giratina-O (120 Sp Atk). To add insult to injury, he doesn't even get fire blast or flamethrower to round out his dragon-fire coverage combo... tragic.
Despite all aforementioned weaknesses, Giratina-O can fit into OU well and deserves to be there: he makes quite the utility pokemon, or can even act as a tank that can hit back with some real muscle. He has two major qualities going for him: he'll be the bulkiest Will-O-Wisp user and the bulkiest Defog user out there. He has access to Dragon Tail / Roar and all three status inducing moves: Toxic, Thunder Wave, and WOW, which means he can spread status with ease. Apart from that, he can hit respectably hard (especially when his STABS are boosted by Griseous Orb). He can also run a Calm Mind set, having access to Dragon Pulse, Shadow Ball, Earth Power, Energy Ball, Thunderbolt, Dark Pulse, and Aura Sphere. Another notable quality is access to priority in Shadow Sneak. Lastly, he acts as a great check to the a-little-too-common Landorus-T, throws all psychic types (like Slowbro) for a loop, and can serve as a good fighting check since a Knock Off used on Giratina doesn't get boosted by the Griseous Orb.
Anyways, that's my rant: I really believe this lil' guy will be good for the metagame and we should let him in!
The OP of this thread says that the council thinks that the current meta is stale (I agree with this) and that unbanning Giratina-O will make it less stale (I don't agree with this). As others have stated, Giratina-O is a blanket check to most of the meta, and blanket checks usually make the meta more stale. We don't need more "easy buttons" for people to be able to slap on their teams; we should focus on removing existing easy buttons if we want to make the meta more interesting and bring a focus back to creative team building. Also, I don't know where the claim that defensive teams are dominating the meta came from. Landorus, Mega Metagross, Keldeo, Bisharp, Mega Charizard X and Y, Mega Diancie, Thunderus, and Mega Gardevoir are still in OU, so I don't think offensive teams lack options to deal with defensive teams. As a stall player, I think Giratina-O would be a nice check to some of these offensive threats, but again I don't just want to run some easy blanket check to stop offensive threats. I'd rather look for a creative combination involving some underrated defensive threats than just run a bunch of blanket checks on my team. Introducing Giratina-O to OU to check all of the stupidly powerful threats that run around is like using rabies to stop cancer.
Edit: I just realized this, but Griseous Orb gives Giratina-O's STABs a 1.2x boost, so I don't know why people keep talking about only 120 special attack. It is almost like a Life Orb with no recoil.
Edit: I just realized this, but Griseous Orb gives Giratina-O's STABs a 1.2x boost, so I don't know why people keep talking about only 120 special attack. It is almost like a Life Orb with no recoil.
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This is going to fun, if this an April fools joke fuck you guys. I have been battling against giratina and I think that its not overpowered like everyone thinks. It has no recovery moves making it cautious to use (excluding Rest). The good thing about it is that it balances the meta, Keldeo can't touch it really, Lando-I can't touch it also as Giratina has Levitate and its other attacks can't do much, and Metagross is walled by it. Mega Altaria is still the only S-Rank mon that can do much. Lando-T can't do much either after having huge usage spike. Its really bulky with the base stat of 100 defense and Special Defense! With 120 attack and special attack! Giratina has 5 weakness making not very scary, and they are Dark, Ghost, Ice, Dragon, Fairy which are all commonly used types. Giratina is more frail than you think. The one thing about it is that you can use it on any team which makes it about the same usage like Lando-T. Also Giratina doesn't have the best movepool out there making it not so OP like you think. :]
Agreeing with Freeroamer that the lack of Leftovers recovery is a huge issue. From my experience, Giratina-O's ability to check these numerous threats in OU is limited by its ability to switch in multiple times + being worn down by residual damage unless it runs restalk or has a partner with Wish / Healing Wish. This is a huge disadvantage that Aegislash did not have, as the amount of switches it forced + King's shield often prevented it from being worn down incredibly quickly thanks Leftovers recovery. Giratina's lack of passive recovery from leftovers (and its inability to hold an item in general) prevents it from reliably checking important Pokemon in the metagame nearly as well as Aegislash could.
Perhaps I'm missing something but how exactly is this thing balanced in OU? Yes, I admit it checks the top threats in OU such as Mega Metagross, Keldeo, Landorus-I and Thundurus but people forgot to mention that it also checks almost everything else in the meta with it's typing, bulk and above average offenses. Seriously, this thing has so many switch-ins opportunity and it's ridiculous. Even Pokemon that can check it (think Bisharp, Clefable, Mega Diancie, Mega Gardevoir, Tyranitar) have to play around it carefully less they get crippled by Aura Sphere (one shots Bisharp and Ttar), Will-O-Wisp (Azumarill, Ttar, Bisharp), Shadow Ball (strong neutral move to spam), Draco Meteor (still good even when uninvested due to 120 SpA). I have a feeling that Giratina-O will be even more centralizing than Aegislash and we banned that because we don't want overcentralization, which Gira-O will undoubtedly bring. Remember, Giratina-O wins against more than half the Pokemon in the metagame by itself and there is zero reasons to not use it so the meta will be dominated by Fairies + Giratina-O (like how it was EQ-spam and Fire-moves spam during the Aegislash era)
This is my fault for those things I said in that one Smogcast discussing Mega Metagross isn't it?
I can see why people could see Giratina-O balanced in OU, as it has very common weaknesses, is item locked, and has no good recovery options (Pain Split is shit with Base 150 HP). However, it's still stupidly bulky for it offensive prowess, not predictable at all with possible coverage options/ability to go mixed, Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave, and even Tailwind. Oh and it gets Defog too, so it blanket checks everything while removing Hazards at the same time. I'll admit that I'm still not sure how to feel about this overall, but I can't see this thing staying OU.
I can see why people could see Giratina-O balanced in OU, as it has very common weaknesses, is item locked, and has no good recovery options (Pain Split is shit with Base 150 HP). However, it's still stupidly bulky for it offensive prowess, not predictable at all with possible coverage options/ability to go mixed, Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave, and even Tailwind. Oh and it gets Defog too, so it blanket checks everything while removing Hazards at the same time. I'll admit that I'm still not sure how to feel about this overall, but I can't see this thing staying OU.
Giratina-O is definitely an interesting case. Having this thing in OU is going to bring many pros and cons. Right now, the number one threat in demand is Landorus-I. Landorus-I is constantly being ridiculed for being one of the hardest Pokemon in all of Pokemon to counter. Giratina-O counters it, and both formes at that. OU in general has a shitton of wallbreakers; we're dealing with the omnipresent Landorus-I, Mega Charizard Y, Specs Keldeo, Mega Metagross, and to an extent even SD Feraligatr. Giratina-O at minimum checks all of these. Now, this argument is going to sound a bit silly, as the more things a Pokemon checks the more overpowered it appears, but I feel that this puts the metagame in a balanced state.
What I mean by this is that suspecting Giratina-O is the perfect chance for us to finally make the metagame less offensively based and having extremely hard threats to counter such as Landorus-I flying around. It will completely revamp the metagame to being a lot more bulky offensive / defensively based, and it's going to also negate the common times where people just can't win due to shit matchup against teams with wallbreakers i.e. any Landorus or Zard Y team.
Now here are my concerns: Giratina is bulky enough to take on the many wallbreakers in the tier, but I'm worried it's just going to be too bulky. It has an ass defensive typing for sure, being weak to the omnipresent Ice, Fairy, and Ghost types in the tier. But otherwise it's pretty fucking bulky, no way around it. Hell, as said earlier with 0 investment it's only 2HKOed by fucking Mega Diancie's Moonblast. The CroMind set already seems to be very beastly and will be a solid win condition, and coupled with solid offensive stats backed with two very powerful STABs backed with an item, and I'm not sure if it may be a bit too much for the meta. Just some thoughts.
I'll try to get reqs, I've been a bit busy but I want to see how the metagame will be with Giratina-O.
What I mean by this is that suspecting Giratina-O is the perfect chance for us to finally make the metagame less offensively based and having extremely hard threats to counter such as Landorus-I flying around. It will completely revamp the metagame to being a lot more bulky offensive / defensively based, and it's going to also negate the common times where people just can't win due to shit matchup against teams with wallbreakers i.e. any Landorus or Zard Y team.
Now here are my concerns: Giratina is bulky enough to take on the many wallbreakers in the tier, but I'm worried it's just going to be too bulky. It has an ass defensive typing for sure, being weak to the omnipresent Ice, Fairy, and Ghost types in the tier. But otherwise it's pretty fucking bulky, no way around it. Hell, as said earlier with 0 investment it's only 2HKOed by fucking Mega Diancie's Moonblast. The CroMind set already seems to be very beastly and will be a solid win condition, and coupled with solid offensive stats backed with two very powerful STABs backed with an item, and I'm not sure if it may be a bit too much for the meta. Just some thoughts.
I'll try to get reqs, I've been a bit busy but I want to see how the metagame will be with Giratina-O.
While I find it nice to have a mon that checks Mega Metagross, Landorus-I, and Keldeo at the same time, I don't think that Giratina-O is going to be friendly to the OU metagame. Unlike Kyurem-Black, Giratina has an abundant movepool it can use with its base 120 attacking stats. It has the standard Draco Meteor & Shadow Ball that it can use to be its main STABs, but it can Aura Sphere to bust Bisharp, Earthquake to get around specially defensive Heatran, Shadow Sneak to get past a Mega Gallade that has set up or pick off a weakened Pokemon, Thunder(bolt) to mess with Rain teams, or if you're really cheeky, Iron Head/Tail to cripple fairies. It also packs support moves like Will-O-Wisp to cripple physical attackers, Defog for hazard removal, and Dragon Tail to phaze out set up sweepers.
The only checks Giratina-O has are Mandibuzz, Clefable, Sylveon, Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Heatran if it lacks Earthquake (and Rest I guess; thanks Ox The Fox. And Heatran can't do much back outside Toxic), Chansey (who can't do much back except Toxic and Giratina isn't running the SubCM set), Latios who can't switch in, Specs Raikou who also can't switch in, offensive Garchomp (also can't switch in), Kyurem-B (can't switch in), Mega Charizard X (again, can't switch in) and Gengar (can't switch in and fears Shadow Sneak).
Giratina-O would be such a boon on a lot of teams and I fear it would be pretty overcentralizing for the meta. In my opinion, I say keep that monster in Ubers.
The only checks Giratina-O has are Mandibuzz, Clefable, Sylveon, Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Heatran if it lacks Earthquake (and Rest I guess; thanks Ox The Fox. And Heatran can't do much back outside Toxic), Chansey (who can't do much back except Toxic and Giratina isn't running the SubCM set), Latios who can't switch in, Specs Raikou who also can't switch in, offensive Garchomp (also can't switch in), Kyurem-B (can't switch in), Mega Charizard X (again, can't switch in) and Gengar (can't switch in and fears Shadow Sneak).
Giratina-O would be such a boon on a lot of teams and I fear it would be pretty overcentralizing for the meta. In my opinion, I say keep that monster in Ubers.
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Oh good God, I go out for six hours and I come back to this?!
Okay, well, as interesting as it'll be to see how Giratina plays out in the suspect ladder, I'm not buying into the argument that this is going to shake things up and balance the meta away from defense oriented teams. In fact, I think it's gonna do the exact opposite. Sure, it has five relatively common weaknesses, and it can't run Lefties, but it has fairly insane bulk at 150/100/100, access to a slew of status moves, the ability to run SubCM and RestTalk sets, Knock Off only hits it with base 65 power...I'm sorry, but this thing is gonna be getting a metric sh*tload of play on defensive teams. Not to mention that its 120/120 offensive stats are quite good as well, especially since it's got a great movepool, a 20% boosting item to its STAB attacks that can't get Knocked Off, a priority move, and a ridiculous amount of bulk for an offensive Pokemon, and again, it can run CM to set up. Even though its base speed is only 90, that is fairly tolerable given its positive attributes. I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is going to change the tier in any positive way. With Giratina-O introduced, the tier is still gonna be overrun with Balanced and Bulky Offense teams. The only positive thing this might lead to is a better check for MegaGross, as with full SAtk investment, Shadow Ball is pretty much guaranteed to OHKO MegaGross, while Jolly MegaGross' Ice Punch can only get a guaranteed 2HKO in return. I suppose it could also be another check for Lando-I and Keldeo, but the fact of the matter is, I have a very strong suspicion that Giratina's going to become the centralizing force in the metagame if it goes down to OU. I'd be very surprised if it didn't go straight to A+ or S rank on the viability thread. Sorry, I agree that this metagame needs something new and exciting in it, but I don't think this is what's called for. Keep Giratina banned.
Okay, well, as interesting as it'll be to see how Giratina plays out in the suspect ladder, I'm not buying into the argument that this is going to shake things up and balance the meta away from defense oriented teams. In fact, I think it's gonna do the exact opposite. Sure, it has five relatively common weaknesses, and it can't run Lefties, but it has fairly insane bulk at 150/100/100, access to a slew of status moves, the ability to run SubCM and RestTalk sets, Knock Off only hits it with base 65 power...I'm sorry, but this thing is gonna be getting a metric sh*tload of play on defensive teams. Not to mention that its 120/120 offensive stats are quite good as well, especially since it's got a great movepool, a 20% boosting item to its STAB attacks that can't get Knocked Off, a priority move, and a ridiculous amount of bulk for an offensive Pokemon, and again, it can run CM to set up. Even though its base speed is only 90, that is fairly tolerable given its positive attributes. I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is going to change the tier in any positive way. With Giratina-O introduced, the tier is still gonna be overrun with Balanced and Bulky Offense teams. The only positive thing this might lead to is a better check for MegaGross, as with full SAtk investment, Shadow Ball is pretty much guaranteed to OHKO MegaGross, while Jolly MegaGross' Ice Punch can only get a guaranteed 2HKO in return. I suppose it could also be another check for Lando-I and Keldeo, but the fact of the matter is, I have a very strong suspicion that Giratina's going to become the centralizing force in the metagame if it goes down to OU. I'd be very surprised if it didn't go straight to A+ or S rank on the viability thread. Sorry, I agree that this metagame needs something new and exciting in it, but I don't think this is what's called for. Keep Giratina banned.
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Giratina still counters a great portion of the current meta (e.x lando-i, keldeo, zard y....), so I don't think you should say it won't switch in all the time.
I get how it is walled by clefable, but how does it get walled by chansey or skarmory? shadow ball kills skarmory and chansey cannot do anything to the Subcm set.
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Just tried it out for a little bit, and I have to say it's crazy. Admittedly, I'm lower in the ladder atm, but it has already proven how easily it can rip teams apart.
I think it compares to a mix of Mega-Meta to Kyurem B. It can take resisted and even neutral hits and easily KO or 2HKO back. Ghost and Dragon is awesome coverage, enabling it to easily dent most things. Not only this, but it can easily run mixed sets. Of course, it has that amazing move pool that's going to make it very hard to wall without figuring out its set. Subcm, Mixed attacker, the possibilities go on.
imo, we're including another Meta-Mega, but a mixed set this time. The only real downsides are his weaknesses. Mega-Meta + Giratina Core is going to be entertaining to mess around with.
I think it compares to a mix of Mega-Meta to Kyurem B. It can take resisted and even neutral hits and easily KO or 2HKO back. Ghost and Dragon is awesome coverage, enabling it to easily dent most things. Not only this, but it can easily run mixed sets. Of course, it has that amazing move pool that's going to make it very hard to wall without figuring out its set. Subcm, Mixed attacker, the possibilities go on.
imo, we're including another Meta-Mega, but a mixed set this time. The only real downsides are his weaknesses. Mega-Meta + Giratina Core is going to be entertaining to mess around with.
After playing around a little bit I've found I like it in OU. Defensively the lack of recovery means I can't just slap on in a core and wall the tier. It'll get worn down to Rocks and the hits it has to take. If you want recovery you have to either run rest, which puts you out of the game for two turns. Sleep talk which takes out a viable move slot, or pain split with its its gigantic HP doesn't help much. So assuming you wanna go defensive you have a choice of shadow sneak which uninvested is meh, dragon tail (probably the best option) shadow ball (bisharp says hi), shadow force which can be played around, or coverage which isn't STAB and doesn't get an Orb boost.
So that regulates it to a more bulky offensive role. Now I prefer Defog for some utility or else its base 120/120/90 is rather lack luster for an all out attack tbh. We've got things like Metagross running around with 145 and tough claws the meta has adapted. Plus Giratina's moves are mostly special which means Chansey can just wall it for days. That said its an amazing defogger in that it will punish anything trying to take advantage of defog. This in turn helps keep hazards off the field which helps balance. Offensive usually runs something like Latios so the whole its too bulky argument losses a lot of merit in my eyes. Then it can even help stall with rest talk and phasing. So to me its helping the meta in every play style while not being all that threatening.
Giratina-O is amazing but it ain't broken. If it goes defensive it's whittled too easily. If its offensive then not hitting hard enough to sweep. Wall break sure but no sweeping.
So that regulates it to a more bulky offensive role. Now I prefer Defog for some utility or else its base 120/120/90 is rather lack luster for an all out attack tbh. We've got things like Metagross running around with 145 and tough claws the meta has adapted. Plus Giratina's moves are mostly special which means Chansey can just wall it for days. That said its an amazing defogger in that it will punish anything trying to take advantage of defog. This in turn helps keep hazards off the field which helps balance. Offensive usually runs something like Latios so the whole its too bulky argument losses a lot of merit in my eyes. Then it can even help stall with rest talk and phasing. So to me its helping the meta in every play style while not being all that threatening.
Giratina-O is amazing but it ain't broken. If it goes defensive it's whittled too easily. If its offensive then not hitting hard enough to sweep. Wall break sure but no sweeping.
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