Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Alright, I'm not gonna respond to all of this, cause I've dealt with a lot of this in prior posts. However, there's a few mistakes I keep seeing popping up that I want to deal with.
First off, Giratina is not weak to Knock Off. Or rather, not as weak as other mons. A lot of people seem to think that Knock Off always gets its damage bonus on every hit because Griseous Orb can never get knocked off (not necessarily saying that's true in your case, robofiend). That's not how Knock Off works. Since Griseous Orb can never be knocked off, Knock Off never gets bonus damage, just like with Mega Stones.
Your calcs actually prove the point I've been trying to make. There's plenty of stuff that can counter a given Giratina set, but very VERY few things can counter all of them.
And finally, where did you get the idea that there's no offensive ground, water, and fire resists in the tier? Keldeo resists Fire and Water, while Lando-I is immune to ground. Mega Altaria can also be used offensively and it resists Fire and Water, and is immune to Ground before Mega Evolving. So, three out of the four S-ranks, all three of which see play on offensive teams, resist or are immune to AT LEAST one of those.
I mean.. very few things counter every MegaGross set, very few things counter every Mega/Gyarados set, very few things counter every M-Gardevoir set, very few things counter every Tyranitar set, and so on. No pokemon counters every Gengar set due to its sheer versatility, but I don't think anyone's going to start suggesting its Uber because of that (barring M-Gengar, ofc). Lots of pokemon in the OU meta can run diverse enough sets so that they beat out specific checks/counters, it's only a big problem if scouting the set turns into sacking something for the team.
To clarify; Keldeo is a good Fire/Water resist but is scared of strong physical attacks. Lando is immune to ground, but can't take strong hits from any of the other types, especially due to its low speed. Altaria is generally good for stopping Fire/Water/Ground/Fighting, forgot about it. What I meant by this is that Gira-O is cool because it absorbs these types without being invincible and can provide more diverse damage output than other Keldeo/Lando counters like Sylveon or Skarmory, respectively.
I'm not as convinced Gira-O is balanced after that Griseous Orb point, but I suppose we'll see with time whether it's totally dominant or not.
Why would that be something that is a plus for Giratina? Sableye rarely if ever switches in on scalds or lava plumes and Giratina doesn't carry either of these moves. Hex calcs on Sableye are pointless.
No mention of an April Fools day joke yet O.o On a more serious note, I've been playing on the suspect ladder on an alt, nothing serious enough to get reqs because I don't have that kind of time these days, but the suspect ladder is actually surprisingly fun for me. I'm not seeing the same mons that I've been accustomed to seeing in OU lately, but the ladder will probably get even more stale than it was before because having 2 or 3 decent Giratina answers is basically manditory to every team now. Aside from that, I really don't have anything to say.
As for the point of your post more broadly, particularly this line:
I mean.. very few things counter every MegaGross set, very few things counter every Mega/Gyarados set, very few things counter every M-Gardevoir set, very few things counter every Tyranitar set, and so on. No pokemon counters every Gengar set due to its sheer versatility, but I don't think anyone's going to start suggesting its Uber because of that (barring M-Gengar, ofc). Lots of pokemon in the OU meta can run diverse enough sets so that they beat out specific checks/counters, it's only a big problem if scouting the set turns into sacking something for the team.
Although you are right in the fact that many pokes in OU can run several sets, Giratina can lead to a simple misprediction of what set it's running, and that could very well make you lose the game immediately by, say, letting it set up a calm mind/sub or killing the one potential check/counter on a team. Giratina can simply run an incredible amount of sets, more than any other OU poke, and they're all respectfully different, and it can run many completely different roles, from a hard wall to a set up sweeper. As much as i hate to bring this up, as i think it's still a very flawed comparison, it's hard to say that that doesn't sound like a pro-ban Aegislash argument.
All in all, Giratina is a terrifying force that can't be dealt with consistently enough to be in OU.
Even mandibuzz can't counter all its sets; let's not forget that Gira learns Tbolt too. It's a guaranteed 2hko after rocks. A counter can comfortably switch in on any of its moves and ko it. Mandi is def a check, not a counter.
Even mandibuzz can't counter all its sets; let's not forget that Gira learns Tbolt too. It's a guaranteed 2hko after rocks. A counter can comfortably switch in on any of its moves and ko it. Mandi is def a check, not a counter.
That's true, I'd forgotten that. If enough people try to use Mandibuzz to take on Giratina, I could definitely see that becoming a major coverage move on some of its special attacking sets.
I think giratina naturally balances itself out because of its speed tier. Compared to a pokemon like mega metagross (who is also extremely strong offensively as well as extremely bulky), there is a MUCH wider pool of revenge mons to choose from that can outspeed and ohko giratina. If you want to outspeed and ohko metagross you're awfully limited to pokemon like houndoom, manetric, scarf lando, and scarf tran. With giratina VERY few sets go timid/jolly, so anything 80+ is faster and there are options like garchomp, kyu-b, hydreigon, latis, gardevoir, altaria, salamence, and dragonite to outspeed and ohko.
I just wanted to reply to this as there a few issues with what you are saying. The pool of mons that can outspeed and OHKO Giratina is extremely limited to its incredible bulk:
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 343-406 (77.7 - 92%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 463-549 (104.9 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With investment:
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 463-549 (91.8 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Latios obviously KO's non-Shadow Sneak variants, but has to be at full health to avoid SS:
252 Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 180-212 (59.8 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 276-326 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 330-393 (74.8 - 89.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Draco kills, but has chance of missing)
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 270-318 (61.2 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
Mega Gyara:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 326-386 (73.9 - 87.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 492-578 (111.5 - 131%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It can take a hit, dragon dance, and KO, but if it took rocks damage, Draco then Shadow Sneak polishes it off.
Gardevoir:
252 Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Gardevoir: 204-242 (73.6 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Adamant has a reasonable chance of the KO:
252+ Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Gardevoir: 224-266 (80.8 - 96%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Garchomp has to lock itself into Outrage, and Salamence is not viable.
Finally, the likelihood of Altaria, Dragonite, and other base 80's running Jolly/Timid is just as likely as Giratina running the same (especially 'nite); however they do KO if so. Altaria takes a chunk from Shadow Ball, so it has to be healthy:
252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 144-169 (49.3 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Bloody hell, if Altaria takes rocks damage in its un-mega-evolved form, it gets 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball and un-invested Shadow Sneak depending on rolls:
0 Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 57-67 (19.5 - 22.9%) -- 7.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
Aside from Altaria, +Speed Kyurem B is actually the best check/revenge killer as it out speeds every time, and takes minimal damage (less than 30%) from Shadow Sneak.
Another option is Mega Sceptile:
252 SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 302-356 (68.4 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
A team is not inherently better by choosing giratina. A lot of people here seem to think that you should just choose a mega, choose a giratina set, and you immediately have 1/3 of your team. The thing is, giratina only offers resistances in the FWG triad and does absolutely nothing in the dragon/fairy/steel motif.
The problem is that it really IS inherently better by choosing Giratina due to the number of roles it can compress into one, its power, and it's ridiculous bulk, as I stated in a previous post. It's typing is easy to synergize around, and it can do so much that if your team hasn't got Giratina in it, it's more likely that you had to go to more effort to keep it out than put it in.
A team with giratina is almost certainly weak to azumarill or kyu-b or altaria or diancie or gardevoir.
This I agree with to a point, but the number of fast fairies is very small, and both Gard and Diancie must have already Mega Evolved to stand a chance against faster versions.
Even with protect, Shadow Force versions ignore it or under-speed once you are evolved (shadow forcing on the protect turn) and this happens:
252 Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 205-243 (85 - 100.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Shadow sneak polishes it off.
Azu can be burned, leaving it unable to guarantee a 2HKO, and leaving it crippled for other threats.
252+ Atk Huge Power burned Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 178-211 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
At the minute, it's just a question of which set you run, leaving it open to different checks/counters. I just think the G-O's versatility on offence and defense does actually make any team inherently better, and puts more pressure on the metagame rather than lessening it: use G-O or be at a disadvantage, that simple.
252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 480-566 (108.8 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Best check: Fast G-O.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry to single out your post, and certain points of it; the council's intention is right, but I just feel that G-O really is too powerful for the meta, and people need to stop underrating its bulk.
Okay, I think the time has come to reveal the joke. Yes, this suspect test wasn't serious. We aren't crazy, or at least not crazy enough to test something like Giratina-Origin for OU. To make the prank sound more beliveable, we chose to announce the test a few days before April 1st and to actually add a Suspect Ladder with Giratina-O unbanned.
If anything, during these 2 days of testing we've learnt a few things:
Giratina-O might not be as broken as some of us would have thought;
some people in this community are literally hysterical;
I'm honestly a genius for coming up with such brilliant idea (no, wait, we knew this already);
Major shoutouts to those who were able to identify the hidden phrase in the OP, PokefanAidan and Minority Suspect in particular. You guys forced me to stealth edit my post to keep the joke going.
Thanks to Smogon Senior Staff and to the OU staff team for playing along. This was definitely funny.
Haunter! What the hell is that crap? Are you seriously going to go all "haha I was joking on you guys you sure fell for my joke"? Are you seriously going to do this? Because your post makes me assume that is exactly what you are trying to pull off here, but let me tell you one thing: you have no fucking idea of jokes, you have no fucking idea of april fools. Everyone knew it was all just a facade, everyone knew you guys were joking, everyone fucking knew, and now you are going to play it off as if nothing happened? Everyone saw through your little "clever" ruse you thought you could pull, but no, you had to delete all those posts, you had to force your shitty not-thought-out april fools joke after literally EVERYONE knew it was a joke. I swear to god haunter the fact that you are seriously being like "look at ur dumb faces you all laddered for nothing xD". You are a fucking disgrace to everyone who knows what a good joke is, no to everyone who has SOME social skills. You forced your stupid ruse and now you want to play it off as a good ruse? Hah, don't even talk to me you gigantic moronic dipshit. It was a shit ruse to begin with and now you want yourself to look better, but not with me! You actually thought you could do this... you actually thought you could pull that shit on me, deleteing my post and go all serious and now you want yourself to look good in front of all those random kiddies? Hell no you made your bet without me you little smut. I know you are a bad jokester, you know you are a bad jokester, everyone fucking knows but you are still going to force that shit, aren't you? You just want that all your little friends give you some internet fellatio about how you made some dumb cunts think about some dumb pokemon on some dumb website and play some dumb games on some dumb simulator and now you are praising it as if you were the messiah of jokes. Let me tell you this and I will tell you one time, and one time only: NO you are not. You are not funny Haunter, you are not smart and you are not witty. All you are is a little failed troll. Yet you think you can put yourself over everyone else here, put yourself in a position of power where you can even push all the evidence that your joke was a shit joke under the carpet just to reveal that it was a shit joke a bit later when thinking your joke was the reincarnation of Christ. Epic. Simply Fucking Epic...
I'm fucking done with shit like this Haunter, I AM FUCKING DONE. Listen up Haunter. Your little troll is wrong. Your little troll is responsible for my family tearing apart. I am done with this world, I am done with this life. I do not want to live in a world where little shits like you think they can do whatever the fuck they want. I was meditating over this a very long time and I made a plan. A very special plan. I will leave my existance back, it's not worth anything, but the plan is. I got your IP adress, I will find you and if it takes everything I can give. I WILL FIND YOU HAUNTER. I swear to everything that is holy that I will find you and that I will slit your throat. You thought you could do a little suspect test on your little power tripping website, but I will do a little suspect test with your fucking life. Mark my words Haunter, you will regret doing this. YOU WILL REGRET THIS
Also, I can say with near certainty that this is not an April Fool's joke. It's just a case of horrifically bad timing. Besides, they would have waited until April 1st if it really was a joke.
Actually, Bedschibaer, I'm gonna tell you the truth. The real April Fools' joke was to make people believe that this Suspect Test was a joke. This is a case of reverse psychology! You'll see tomorrow, when the suspect ladder will be back up!
