Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

Hi so I somehow didn't see this thread for about 4 days, but I'm going to do something I don't usually do and post about some of the nominations other people have made.

Firstly, I'm very inclined to keep Venipede and Whirlipede in the same rank (as each other, not always being in the tank they're in now). The differences between them are very minimal in practice, and I'd rather treat them as pretty much the same thing than be picky about which one is better than the other. If one of them was clearly better I would feel differently, but as for now they're almost the exact same thing so they probably belong in the same rank.

I also think that Jumpluff should stay where it is. It's held back from S rank because it's pretty weak and decently easy to wear down, but otherwise this Pokemon is an amazingly anti-offense threat. Sleep that's faster than the entire tier bar Zebstrika is really amazing, and tons of threats like Ninetales get 2HKOed by Acrobatics if they try to switch in. Most offensive teams only have 1-2 things that can switch in without being 2HKOed or 3HKOed by Acrobatics, but they just end up as sleep fodder. Jumpluff ends up being a force in almost every match it's in, which leads to my next point: Jumpluff is a huge force in the current metagame. It's on so many teams right now, and it's hugely responsible for the huge rise of Zebstrika over Raichu. Not quite good enough for S, but it's still a huge force in the metagame that's easily A+ worthy.

Other things I particularly agree with:

Mightyena to A-
Pawniard to A+
Zebstrika to A+

Finally, I don't know which way I am on this but would like to bring up Carracosta to S as some food for thought and a point for discussion.
 
I am supporting Carracosta's rise, because I feel like the Shell Smash set is actually very threatening to every playstyle, especially hyper offense and teams that don't have enough power to bring it down before it manages to set up, which most likely happens most of the games thanks to its high Defense. Carracosta forces teams to run at least a fast Pokemon to revengekill it or a strong check such as Poliwrath, therefore it is actually something you can't skip on when building, as it has access to decent coverage moves, such as Zen Headbutt to lure its checks and Knock Off to cripple bulky Eviolite users such as Tangela and Quilladin. Carracosta also has the possibility to run different sets, as it has access to utility moves such as Toxic and Stealth Rock, and pairs well with common defensive and offensive Pokemon such as Roselia and Simipour to mention some.
 
holy fucking shit carracosta is so difficult to counter. [insert random cursewords here because lmao this thing is incredibly difficult to deal with]. Its bulk, typing, and offensive STAB combo allows it to literally decimate teams without Poliwrath. I'm honestly stumped as to what can switch into a +2 Adamant Carracosta, survive with reasonable health and KO back easily. I'm not even going to regard the possible Zen Headbutt or Ice Beam (albeit the latter has become highly unnecessary in the current meta) and just a simple set of ss/waterfall/aqua jet/stone edge is incredibly difficult for most offensive teams to counter (you can only put so much offensive pressure and Carracosta easily takes hits from the likes of Rapidash). I mean, the only things not OHKOed at +2 by this set in the A+ and S ranks are Poliwrath and defensive Carracosta (which takes upwards of 70% from +2 LO Ada Stone Edge and we all know that it's quite common to see it in that range). Revenge killers such as Zebstrika (outspeeds even Jolly +2 Costa which is nice) have to be at full health or so if they want to survive +2 LO Aqua Jet.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 239-282 (82.1 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 308-363 (133.3 - 157.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (scarf haunter)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 265-313 (101.5 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-F: 153-183 (63.4 - 75.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (scarf rotomf)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Carracosta Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 234-277 (105.8 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (scarf mime)
It literally OHKOes most of the tier at +2 and isn't incredibly hard to setup on 'mons like Rapidash, Rotom-F locked into ice move, Stoutland locked into normal move (not uncommon b/c it keeps spamming scrappy return), Armaldo, Pawniard, Mightyena, and so on 1v1 (it's often just sac mon -> go to costa and sweep vs. many offensive teams ._.) and keep in mind that it also survives a lot of super effective attacks such as 252+ Piloswine's Earthquake (dies to like 4 LO recoil rounds after but w/e) and Jumpluff's Seed Bomb without the Defense drops. It's an incredibly hard 'mon to truly counter and with its checks/counters taking even slight damage, it straight up destroys them at +2 except for Poli.

also, Poliwrath is very easy to lure/bait with moves such as explosion from Golem so you can break it thusly. tangela honestly isn't really very splashable and a lot of teams would rather have roselia. Supporting a rise to S because damn that thing is powerful.

SS carracosta also is pretty great vs balance/bulky offense/stall as it still rips through a lot of defensive Pokemon and not much on stall OHKOes in return

I forgot entirely to talk about its defensive set, which is a great lead and isn't OHKOed by most common leads, managing to spread Scald burns and Knock Off and set up Stealth Rock reliably. It's a pretty great choice as an SRer for stall/bulky offense. Solid Rock allows it to sponge super effective hits like Golem's Earthquake extremely easily.
 
Piloswine from A+ to S

Now that Sneasel is gone, it is easy to say that Piloswine should take his place. Not only is he the best ice type in the tier, he is also the best bulky stealth rocker. He has always found his way onto one of my teams, using the same set, Stealth Rock/Earthquake/Ice Shard/Icicle Spear, and he has never ceased to preform up to my expectations. There were talks about doing this before Sneasel got banned so it seemed logical to do it now
 
FallenSword912 said:
Piloswine from A+ to S

Now that Sneasel is gone, it is easy to say that Piloswine should take his place. Not only is he the best ice type in the tier, he is also the best bulky stealth rocker. He has always found his way onto one of my teams, using the same set, Stealth Rock/Earthquake/Ice Shard/Icicle Spear, and he has never ceased to preform up to my expectations. There were talks about doing this before Sneasel got banned so it seemed logical to do it now
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I am opposing to this one, Piloswine could be the best ice-type at the moment yes, but count there are really few of them in the tier, and with the release of Snow Warning Aurorus, it will get some more competition. Piloswine is a bulky stealth rock setter, but I wouldn't say the best, as its defences are not that excellent and Eviolite dependant, apart from HP which is actually really good. Thick Fat is a great ability, and makes up for it a bit but Piloswine is still weak to common types such as Grass, Water, and Fighting, and without a recovery, this means it can get worn down really quickly even if it has a decent bulk. Unwillingly, you also cited another drawback, which consists in Piloswine being predictable, as its main and only set can only run few variants in moves such as Toxic, therefore making Piloswine walled by common Pokemon such as Poliwrath and Pelipper and often targeted by Taunt as its speed is mediocre. Don't get me wrong, Piloswine is still a great Pokemon and worthy for a A+ rank for the things it provides such as its ground-type glue, but some drawbacks keep it from being as an S Tier Pokemon, which remember is the excellence of the tier.
 
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I love pilo cause its bulky af but I don't think it's S rank, and I really fail to see how sneasel leaving buffs pilo. Yeah they were both ice types but that's the only similarity, sneasel is a offensive cleaner and pilo is a tank, and pilo functions more like a ground type then an ice type. Pilo was a check to life orb sneasel since it could switch in on a resisted ice move and ko with eq (very shaky check cause knock off but w/e). If theres any reason to move pilo up its the banning of throh and the rising popularity of zebstrika over raichu, but pilo isn't s rank material cause it has no recovery, reliance on eviolite, inability to hurt iceberg dude outside of toxic, water weak, etc.
 
avalugg has really fallen from where it was but i agree with the above sentiments; pilo may be a great glue and electric/flying check as well as isn't a slouch offensively and can dent most offensive teams p well, but it's honestly crippled a lot by Knock off, taken advantage of by the commonest mon in the tier, has no recovery, is worn down a lot by hazard stacking and is hit super effectively by common types thus making it relatively easy to break through.
 
I have a bunch of nominations that are just stuff gradually getting better or worse as the metagame develops that get glossed over because they happen so slowly.

Lickilicky from A- to B+
Avalugg from A- to B+
Purugly from B to B-
Simisage from B to B-
Gogoat from B- to C+
Kricketune from B- to C+
Seviper from B- to C+
Swoobat from B- to C+
Girafarig from C+ to C
Gabite from C+ to C
Munchlax from C+ to C
Politoed from C+ to C


I'm not posting individual reasoning for each of these since basically all of them are "no one uses this anymore, it's not as good as the rest of the Pokemon in its current rank". If you've used one of these and want to dispute/support it then please post about it, this is mostly just theorymon-type stuff since I haven't used most of these so more input would be helpful
 
One thing. Zebstrika should be moved up to at least A+, firstly because it is basically the fastest Pokemon in the meta game, but also because sap sipper zebstrika stops Poliwrath, Jumpluff, and most flying types in the metagame.

Edit: Also, as of now, zebstrika can hit every A plus rank or s rank Pokemon bar ninetails super effectively.
 
Heatmor from B+ to B

I have nothing aganist Heatmor, but it's basically become a forgotten mon in PU and it isn't Heatmor's fault. It is still a great wallbreaker with great coverage moves and priority in Sucker Punch, but the meta has sped up as of recently and with Ninetales and Rapidash being used more, Heatmor just can't keep up despite the options it has at its disposal.

Arbok from B- to B

I've used Arbok quite a bit over the past few days, and I have to say I like what it can do. With access to Intimidate to handle physical attackers allowing Arbok to set up Coil easier, solid coverage options to go alongside Gunk Shot, and priority with Sucker Punch, Arbok is a solid mon in the current meta and should go up imo.

Machoke from C- to B/B-

I know Megazard Z brought this up earlier, but Machoke is a really solid mon. It's by no means a replacement for Throh, but can still be a bulky attacker as well as a status absorber for your team if you need one. This combined with the additional bulk Machoke gets from Eviolite makes it a very potent bulky attacker. The only reason why I didn't nominate Machoke to be higher is because it relies on Eviolite for most of its bulk, stopping it from being a Dark Check or a Knock Off absorber for a team. It still deserves a rise in viability nonetheless.
 
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Megazard Z said:
Unfezant gets steel wing, which allows it to hit golem unlike dodrio, so I guess that's something too.
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Dodrio also gets Steel Wing, not disagreeing with the raise, just pointing out.
Unfezant though also gets reliable recovery in both Roost and Morning Sun, something Dodrio doesn't have.
 
Froggyboy said:
Dodrio also gets Steel Wing, not disagreeing with the raise, just pointing out.
Unfezant though also gets reliable recovery in both Roost and Morning Sun, something Dodrio doesn't have.
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Dodrio learns roost

Magnemite said:
I have a bunch of nominations that are just stuff gradually getting better or worse as the metagame develops that get glossed over because they happen so slowly.

Lickilicky from A- to B+
Avalugg from A- to B+
Purugly from B to B-
Simisage from B to B-
Gogoat from B- to C+
Kricketune from B- to C+
Seviper from B- to C+
Swoobat from B- to C+
Girafarig from C+ to C
Gabite from C+ to C
Munchlax from C+ to C
Politoed from C+ to C


I'm not posting individual reasoning for each of these since basically all of them are "no one uses this anymore, it's not as good as the rest of the Pokemon in its current rank". If you've used one of these and want to dispute/support it then please post about it, this is mostly just theorymon-type stuff since I haven't used most of these so more input would be helpful
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Keep Lickilicky at A-. Lickilicky actually improved since Throh left since Throh was one of its easiest switch-ins. It also walls more than half the pokemon in the tier through sheer bulk.
I think people are underwhelmed by this thing because they are using the subpar mono-knock off set.

Gogoat to B. This thing doesn't get a lot of usage, but is and always has been good. The bulk up set gets a lot of set-up opportunities against common special attackers like Poliwrath and Mr.Mime.

Keep Swoobat at B-. It's quite simple (lol Pun), Swoobat improved a lot with Sneasel's ban.
 
While I haven't tested Munchlax, Vigoroth is quite nice right now and I don't see why we'd drop munchlax. Similar to Vigoroth, we just removed two things that gave it a lot of trouble, and it's a nice wincon/phazer for stall that can beat Ninetales (Zweilous can't curse). It's also capable of stopping Simipour, which is incredibly hard to switch into, and just blanket walls most random mons like Roselia or Swanna. I could see it rising if anything.
 
Vigoroth to B
So I kinda touched on this earlier, but, with the loss of Throh and Sneasel, Vigoroth has become very potent in this meta. Its excellent special defense and one weakness make it well suited to take on the majority of the special attackers in the tier and boost with bulk up or stall break with taunt/toxic. Out of the current S/A ranks, it can take on or at least sponge hits from Ninetales, Jumpluff (Vital Spirit is incredible), Piloswine, Roselia, Rotom-F, Carracosta (only if you taunt before smash/toxic), Kadabra, Misdreavus (if running toxic/not mono normal coverage), Haunter (if not mono normal), Probopass, Raichu, Simipour, Tangela, Zebstrika, Mr. Mime, Togetic, and some Torterra sets. It's just incredibly valuable for sponging hits and, despite no investment, 2HKOs most of those mons after rocks. It lacks the amazing wall breaking power of Stoutland/Dodrio or defensive prowess of Lickilicky, but in return it has good speed and is able to check/counter a large portion of the metagame. Most importantly, it can check (counter if it's not severely weakened) mixed Simipour, Ninetales, Jumpluff, Zebstrika, and even Rapidash to a degree, some of the most threatening fast offensive mons in the current meta. Oh, and it gets taunt to annoy Dwebble and Whirlipede leads which is cool. What's holding it off from being higher is mainly the prevalence of Poliwrath, Pawniard, and knock off users in general, plus ghosts have to be taken out if it's running mono fighting or if taunt/toxic vs Haunter. Still, Vigoroth has improved a lot with the bans, and is a really nice anti-meta mon right now.
 
Okay, update time!

Carracosta from A+ to A
Jumpluff from A+ to C
Piloswine from A+ to A-
Pawniard from A to A-
Zebstrika from A to C+
Heatmor from B+ to A-
Mightyena from B+ to B
Drifblim from B to B-
Arbok from B- to C+
Vigoroth from B- to E
Venipede from B- to C-
Whirlipede from B- to C-
Machoke from C- to D
Magcargo from D to C-
Unfezant from E to unlisted

I haven't been posting reasoning lately, but I feel like I should this time (note that I didn't include my nominations from my previous post as they haven't been up for very long)

Carracosta is moving down for multiple reasons. Its common weaknesses prevent it from setting up on much of anything, and its terrible base 32 Speed and Shell Smash defense drops mean that it is very easy to revenge kill. The defensive set is very easily worn due to its lack of a recovery move as well. Jumpluff and Zebstrika have been very overhyped lately and really need to go back to where they were before. The ban of Sneasel and Throh is pretty bad for Zebstrika and Jumpluff respectively, as beating them was one of their major niches, and they are both very weak. Zebstrika is also held back by its many common weaknesses. Pawniard is moving down because its stats are very bad all around. It's slow, has horrible defensive stats, isn't that strong, and has a 4x weakness to the STAB type of the best mon in the tier. Piloswine is dropping because I like that ending. Heatmor is rising because of the discovery of the amazing physical AV set that has been gaining a lot of popularity lately, for its great bulk and physical wallbreaking ability. Mightyena recently took a huge hit in the form of the ban of its best partner, Sneasel, which gave it invaluable Pursuit support that it really needed to sweep. Drifblim is moving down because kidnaps children, which isn't very nice, and we shouldn't be encouraging this kind of behavior here at the PU viability ranking thread. Arbok is just way too outclassed as a Coil sweeper by Serperior and Dunsparce, while its horrible typing leaves it with two incredibly common weaknesses and only 5 resistances. Whirlipede is dropping because it's very outclassed by Venipede, while Venipede is also dropping because it's incredibly outclassed by Whirlipede. Vigoroth is dropping to E because of its horrible ability, Slow Start, which is very limiting for it. Machoke may have benefitted from the ban of Throh, but it is really ugly and beat me because of confusion hax once so I'm moving it down to D rank as punishment. Magcargo is rising because of its fantastic Shell Smash set, which sets up on half the tier and has almost no counters. Finally, despite the fact that all fully evolved Pokemon have traditionally been listed in at least E rank, Unfezant is being taken off the list completely because it's even worse than other E ranks, particularly Luvdisc and Wobbuffet.
 
Magnemite said:
Okay, update time!

Carracosta from A+ to A
Jumpluff from A+ to C
Piloswine from A+ to A-
Pawniard from A to A-
Zebstrika from A to C+
Heatmor from B+ to A-
Mightyena from B+ to B
Drifblim from B to B-
Arbok from B- to C+
Vigoroth from B- to E
Venipede from B- to C-
Whirlipede from B- to C-
Machoke from C- to D
Magcargo from D to C-
Unfezant from E to unlisted

I haven't been posting reasoning lately, but I feel like I should this time (note that I didn't include my nominations from my previous post as they haven't been up for very long)

Carracosta is moving down for multiple reasons. Its common weaknesses prevent it from setting up on much of anything, and its terrible base 32 Speed and Shell Smash defense drops mean that it is very easy to revenge kill. The defensive set is very easily worn due to its lack of a recovery move as well. Jumpluff and Zebstrika have been very overhyped lately and really need to go back to where they were before. The ban of Sneasel and Throh is pretty bad for Zebstrika and Jumpluff respectively, as beating them was one of their major niches, and they are both very weak. Zebstrika is also held back by its many common weaknesses. Pawniard is moving down because its stats are very bad all around. It's slow, has horrible defensive stats, isn't that strong, and has a 4x weakness to the STAB type of the best mon in the tier. Piloswine is dropping because I like that ending. Heatmor is rising because of the discovery of the amazing physical AV set that has been gaining a lot of popularity lately, for its great bulk and physical wallbreaking ability. Mightyena recently took a huge hit in the form of the ban of its best partner, Sneasel, which gave it invaluable Pursuit support that it really needed to sweep. Drifblim is moving down because kidnaps children, which isn't very nice, and we shouldn't be encouraging this kind of behavior here at the PU viability ranking thread. Arbok is just way too outclassed as a Coil sweeper by Serperior and Dunsparce, while its horrible typing leaves it with two incredibly common weaknesses and only 5 resistances. Whirlipede is dropping because it's very outclassed by Venipede, while Venipede is also dropping because it's incredibly outclassed by Whirlipede. Machoke may have benefitted from the ban of Throh, but it is really ugly and beat me because of confusion hax once so I'm moving it down to D rank as punishment. Magcargo is rising because of its fantastic Shell Smash set, which sets up on half the tier and has almost no counters. Finally, despite the fact that all fully evolved Pokemon have traditionally been listed in at least E rank, Unfezant is being taken off the list completely because it's even worse than other E ranks, particularly Luvdisc and Wobbuffet.
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>left pollyrath as S rank
>it's weak to 5 types
seriously, this is why people like verlisify exist, smogon are the devil
 
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I guess Zebstrika should drop, as jumpluff and sneasel are gone, but c rank? Shouldn't zebstrika's speed make it more salvageable? It can counter poliwrath too after all.
 
Grimlock00 said:
I guess Zebstrika should drop, as jumpluff and sneasel are gone, but c rank? Shouldn't zebstrika's speed make it more salvageable? It can counter poliwrath too after all.
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252+ SpA Choice Specs Poliwrath Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zebstrika: 312-367 (107.2 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It can't even switch in
 
Grimlock00 said:
That's assuming focus blast hits:).....Sorry. But you can slow pivot in and volt switch out.
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Assuming hax I could counter specs Poliwrath with a Magikarp. You can't assume hax when factoring in whether or not a mon is a counter. Similarly, the fact that ice beam can freeze togetic doesn't stop it from countering a lefties special poliwrath
 
252+ SpA Choice Specs Poliwrath Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Zebstrika: 138-163 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

8 SpA Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 176-210 (47.4 - 56.6%) -- 82% chance to 2HKO

3OP5ME plz ban.
 
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