The point is, Poliwrath would have to anticipate zebstrika sswitch in, and if course you have your handy dandy pivots. And focus blast is really innacurate.
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Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Anty
- Start date
The point is, that's not the definition of a counter. A counter has to switch into all common sets. Zebstrika gets bopped by focus blast, hydro pump, focus punch, scald, ice beam, and can be hit next turn if it switches in on a rain dance or substitute. It checks Poliwrath, but counter is a major overstatement. Unless you're a lord like TONE114 that is.
Genuinely laughed out loud at this one
Jilian Michaels (Machoke) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
Nominating Machoke for E because this thing makes me generally uncomfortable, what with it prancing around in a speedo on a show meant for kids. The speedo is just too tight. :-(
not april fools,ok people
Marowak is a wonderful pokemon with thick club and a moveset that includes low kick, EQ/Bonemerang(acc vs hitting through subs/sashes), knock off and rock slide/stone edge
its atk is 80,but doubled it becomes a threat
and its def,110 is very useful
you can also run rock head with double edge
marowak is a god wallbreaker so maro from B+ to A would be right for that incredible wallbreaker whose only weaknesses are burn and knockoff
Marowak is a wonderful pokemon with thick club and a moveset that includes low kick, EQ/Bonemerang(acc vs hitting through subs/sashes), knock off and rock slide/stone edge
its atk is 80,but doubled it becomes a threat
and its def,110 is very useful
you can also run rock head with double edge
marowak is a god wallbreaker so maro from B+ to A would be right for that incredible wallbreaker whose only weaknesses are burn and knockoff
Nominating Grumpig for A rank.
With a set of Psychic / Focus Blast / Taunt / Thunder Wave it covers many roles and fits nicely on both offensive and bulkier teams.
Grumpig is a very underrated threat in the current meta, easily handling both S rank mons (Poliwrath and Ninetales) and many other things high up like Roselia, Simipour, Rotom, Rapidash, Regice and more. Also the great utility Taunt+T wave gives you allows you to beat mons trying to set up hazards, boosts, or status.
With a set of Psychic / Focus Blast / Taunt / Thunder Wave it covers many roles and fits nicely on both offensive and bulkier teams.
Grumpig is a very underrated threat in the current meta, easily handling both S rank mons (Poliwrath and Ninetales) and many other things high up like Roselia, Simipour, Rotom, Rapidash, Regice and more. Also the great utility Taunt+T wave gives you allows you to beat mons trying to set up hazards, boosts, or status.
I love Grumpig but...I'm opposing to this one. Grumpig is great and all but first of all it doesn't properly handle Ninetales, as now that Throh is gone, most of them run Dark Pulse to screw Grumpig, which doesn't have enough fire power and speed to stop Ninetales from setting up, as it also has a decent Special Defense, so you'll have to rely on Thunder Wave to at least cripple it but you'll still lose a Pokemon most of the time. With a defensive set, Grumpig's limited coverage due to its moveset being focused on utility and its lack of recovery outside of Leftovers keep it from being an excellent Pokemon and a reliable check to many things, as lacking a decent recovery makes it also struggle against entry hazards and residual damage especially from status moves such as Toxic, which will force Grumpig to run Heal Bell and waste a turn. All of that make Grumpig underwhelming sometime and not worthy of an A rank, but still decent as a dedicated wall of meat that gives a lot of utility to a team.
Okay I need something clarified and I feel this is the best place to do it.
Why is Golem A Rank while Gigalith is trapped down in D?
The positives I can see to using Golem are its higher speed, access to Fire Punch, Thunder Punch, and Sucker Punch, and its STAB Earthquake, which Gigalith lacks the boost on. That base 45 speed isn't saying much though. We're talking 207 speed tops at max speed with a positive nature.
Gigalith, however, is overall bulkier (5 more base HP, equal defense, and 15 more base special defense), and hits harder (135 base attack against Golem's base 120). Although it loses out on a resistance to Rock, an immunity to Electric, and a double resistance to Poison, Gigalith also isn't weak to Ice nor does it cower from Grass and Water type moves (in a tier with Poliwrath, Roselia, Leafeon, Jumpluff, Carracosta, Simipour and Tangela as some of the top threats). So I ask...
What makes Golem so much better than Gigalith?
Why is Golem A Rank while Gigalith is trapped down in D?
The positives I can see to using Golem are its higher speed, access to Fire Punch, Thunder Punch, and Sucker Punch, and its STAB Earthquake, which Gigalith lacks the boost on. That base 45 speed isn't saying much though. We're talking 207 speed tops at max speed with a positive nature.
Gigalith, however, is overall bulkier (5 more base HP, equal defense, and 15 more base special defense), and hits harder (135 base attack against Golem's base 120). Although it loses out on a resistance to Rock, an immunity to Electric, and a double resistance to Poison, Gigalith also isn't weak to Ice nor does it cower from Grass and Water type moves (in a tier with Poliwrath, Roselia, Leafeon, Jumpluff, Carracosta, Simipour and Tangela as some of the top threats). So I ask...
What makes Golem so much better than Gigalith?
Golem has STAB Earthquake (as you noted) as well as access to priority in Sucker Punch. This grants it EdgeQuake coverage (nearly unresisted) as well as the ability to have priority right off the bat. Honestly both of these 'mons use a lead set in order to set up SR and deal damage to opposing leads; their defensive utility is not what they are used for at all. Therefore Gigalith's increased defensive stats don't matter and Golem's access to STAB EQ easily mitigates its lower Attack stats. Also, all the threats you listed still beat Gigalith 1v1 (some with Sturdy broken) so that point is irrelevant.
EDIT- Also it does have higher Speed. Gigalith should never be used over Golem.
The Speed may not seem that relevant, but it actually is really relevant for outspeeding defensive Pokemon such as Pelipper and Gourgeist-XL, not to mention all of the other things that have been pointed out. The lack of 4x weaknesses doesn't really matter since Gigalith still loses to every Water and Grass type in the tier, and the slight increase in base stats helps very little, especially once you consider all of Gigalith's disadvantages. If Golem weren't in the tier Gigalith would be B rank or so, but as it stands there's zero reason to use it.
Also, for future reference, I'd prefer if you'd ask simple questions regarding viability like this in the Simple Questions thread or just by VMing me, as asking here clutters up the the thread a bit.
Also, the next update will be sometime this weekend (probably Saturday).
Also, for future reference, I'd prefer if you'd ask simple questions regarding viability like this in the Simple Questions thread or just by VMing me, as asking here clutters up the the thread a bit.
Also, the next update will be sometime this weekend (probably Saturday).
Le update:
Carracosta from A+ to S
Pawniard from A to A+
Zebstrika from A to A+
Avalugg from A- to B+
Rapidash from A- to A
Heatmor from B+ to B
Grumpig from B to B+
Purugly from B to B-
Simisage from B to B-
Arbok from B- to B
Kricketune from B- to C+
Seviper from B- to C+
Swoobat from B- to C+
Vigoroth from B- to B
Gabite from C+ to C
Girafarig from C+ to C
Politoed from C+ to C
Rampardos from C+ to B-
Machoke from C- to B
Krokorok from Unlisted to C-
Also I'd like discussion on:
Lickilicky from A- to B+
Mightyena from B+ to A-
Gogoat from B- to C+
Whirlipede / Venipede from B- to B
Munchlax from C+ to C
Carracosta from A+ to S
Pawniard from A to A+
Zebstrika from A to A+
Avalugg from A- to B+
Rapidash from A- to A
Heatmor from B+ to B
Grumpig from B to B+
Purugly from B to B-
Simisage from B to B-
Arbok from B- to B
Kricketune from B- to C+
Seviper from B- to C+
Swoobat from B- to C+
Vigoroth from B- to B
Gabite from C+ to C
Girafarig from C+ to C
Politoed from C+ to C
Rampardos from C+ to B-
Machoke from C- to B
Krokorok from Unlisted to C-
Also I'd like discussion on:
Lickilicky from A- to B+
Mightyena from B+ to A-
Gogoat from B- to C+
Whirlipede / Venipede from B- to B
Munchlax from C+ to C
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Well in regards to Gogoat, 2xTheTap and myself were testing it out and came up with the following set:
Gogoat @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 80 HP / 172 Atk / 184 SpD / 72 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Milk Drink
- Horn Leech
- Earthquake
The EVs are a bit spread out, but for good reason. Initially I only ran 32 Speed to outspeed Jolly Carracosta, but Tap ran 72 Speed for Adamant Golem and Marowak which ended up being the best thing for Gogoat. 172 Attack EVs guarentee a OHKO on Ninetales after Stealth Rock damage with Earthquake. The rest of the EVs are split between HP and Special Defense with a Careful Nature to better handle Water-types that carry Ice type coverage such as Poliwrath, Simipour, and Golduck. It's not much to go on from an initial standpoint, but I still feel Gogoat is a solid mon that's generally overlooked by Leafeon and Jumpluff but can still hold its own in its own right which is why I feel it should stay B- imo.
Gogoat @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 80 HP / 172 Atk / 184 SpD / 72 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Milk Drink
- Horn Leech
- Earthquake
The EVs are a bit spread out, but for good reason. Initially I only ran 32 Speed to outspeed Jolly Carracosta, but Tap ran 72 Speed for Adamant Golem and Marowak which ended up being the best thing for Gogoat. 172 Attack EVs guarentee a OHKO on Ninetales after Stealth Rock damage with Earthquake. The rest of the EVs are split between HP and Special Defense with a Careful Nature to better handle Water-types that carry Ice type coverage such as Poliwrath, Simipour, and Golduck. It's not much to go on from an initial standpoint, but I still feel Gogoat is a solid mon that's generally overlooked by Leafeon and Jumpluff but can still hold its own in its own right which is why I feel it should stay B- imo.
Would Rock Slide be good for the above or no? Because atm I'm pretty sure the set loses to Leafeon and Jumpluff, which you don't really wanna be giving free switches to TONE114
Also yeah Mightyena should really move up, it's not really at the same level as Dodrio, Basculin, and Avalugg imo. Requoting my previous post because that said a lot of what I had to say:
Gogoat from B- to C+: Can see where this nom is coming from, with Jumpluff being more prominent in the meta and it being a Grass-type that cannot check Carracosta at all (+2 Stone Edge easily OHKOes), as well as Ninetales being a common 'mon that can do good damage to it. It's not really on par with the B- rank 'mons imo and C+ would probably be a better fit.
Whirlipede / Venipede from B- to B: Agree, hazards are very important and these guys are the only options for tspikes aside from roselia, which almost never fits it on it set, as well as setting up spikes for HO and not losing momentum.
Munchlax from C+ to C : Honestly you have a Ninetales counter in lax but...what does it do? It's outclassed for the most part by Licki, who has more overall bulk as well as reliable recovery in WISH as well as much better speed so it isn't taken advantage of very easily. Most of the S and A+ ranks destroy it anyway.
Also yeah Mightyena should really move up, it's not really at the same level as Dodrio, Basculin, and Avalugg imo. Requoting my previous post because that said a lot of what I had to say:
Lickilicky from A- to B+: Agree, it's really fallen off the map and can't maintain momentum while mixed Simipour and setup sweepers are still annoying for it. Many Haunter that it checks carry Trick or Destiny Bond almost always, making them annoying to play around. It can't really do much to Carracosta which hits it hard w/ LO Stone Edge aside from Body Slam paralysis or phazing. Poliwrath, the commonest mon in the tier, gives it some trouble. Also, its lack of instantaneous recovery means that the obvious Protect after a Wish gives the opponent a free turn to do anything. Pawniard is another 'mon that gives Licki trouble.
Gogoat from B- to C+: Can see where this nom is coming from, with Jumpluff being more prominent in the meta and it being a Grass-type that cannot check Carracosta at all (+2 Stone Edge easily OHKOes), as well as Ninetales being a common 'mon that can do good damage to it. It's not really on par with the B- rank 'mons imo and C+ would probably be a better fit.
Whirlipede / Venipede from B- to B: Agree, hazards are very important and these guys are the only options for tspikes aside from roselia, which almost never fits it on it set, as well as setting up spikes for HO and not losing momentum.
Munchlax from C+ to C : Honestly you have a Ninetales counter in lax but...what does it do? It's outclassed for the most part by Licki, who has more overall bulk as well as reliable recovery in WISH as well as much better speed so it isn't taken advantage of very easily. Most of the S and A+ ranks destroy it anyway.
Rock Slide is also an option as well over Milk Drink or EQ tbh, you just lose out on OHKOing Ninetales with Rock Slide while still hitting Missy and Haunter plus hitting Ice-types are nice as well. I just forgot to add the slashes as it is mainly personal preference. Plus unlike Leafeon and Jumpluff, Gogoat can switch in on Zebstrika as it isn't OHKO'd by Overheat and can OHKO with Earthquake with the given EV spread I gave (even if it's only a 6.3% chance with no hazards and an 81.3% with rocks).
I'll now post my thoughts on possible major changes I'm most interested in
Lickilicky from A- to B+
I'm on the fence on this one actually...I mean Lickilicky is one of the key Pokemon on stall and it's stats are very well rounded for the tier, which makes for an unpredictable Pokemon (we saw in The Best Next Thing how many different sets popped up, from defensive variants to offensive ones). The actual problem about Lickilicky, as Kingler already said, is the problem every stall team has: it can't handle pressure from common offensive threats such as Mixed Simipour and Poliwrath, and the list doesn't end there as there are plenty of offensive Pokemon in the tier that could trouble it. Another thing is that its only reliable recover stands in Wish, but that's not really reliable at all as some people already said, bc it makes Lickilicky waste a turn, fundamental for opponents to set up or switch to a more favorable matchup, which is lethal for stall teams, and waste a moveslot too.
Mightyena from B+ to A-
I totally approve this from the moment Throh and Sneasel got banned, as Mightyena really is a premier choice for Dark-spam teams now(before it was also considered most of the times but now it gained even more usage), and from what I've seen and tried, it's just unstoppable against slow paced teams, as it can just steamroll a game thanks to Moxie, still being hard to revengekill from more fast teams thanks to Sucker Punch. Also wanna note its access to elemental fangs such as Ice and Fire Fang, Iron Tail and Play Rough, which make it a even more difficult Pokemon to especially counter.
Whirlipede / Venipede from B- to B:
I don't even know why these guys weren't B already LOL. Of course I approve this, also being an avid user of entry hazard stacking, Whirlipede and Venipede are the only fitting choices for Hyper Offense teams that want Spikes and Toxic Spikes support, being the fastest entry hazard setters thanks to Speed Boost, therefore able to place at least one layer spikes / toxic spikes more fast than any other option such as Roselia, still being sorta threatening with Endeavor. They're kept from being really good because they lose to some stealth rock leads, as the ones that carry Rock Blast totally obliterate them, other than being set up fodder for a lot of things into PU at the moment, especially now that the tier is filled with offensive powerhouses, which could be lethal for HO teams that count over not letting dangerous threats set up. STILL B RANK WORTH.
Lickilicky from A- to B+
I'm on the fence on this one actually...I mean Lickilicky is one of the key Pokemon on stall and it's stats are very well rounded for the tier, which makes for an unpredictable Pokemon (we saw in The Best Next Thing how many different sets popped up, from defensive variants to offensive ones). The actual problem about Lickilicky, as Kingler already said, is the problem every stall team has: it can't handle pressure from common offensive threats such as Mixed Simipour and Poliwrath, and the list doesn't end there as there are plenty of offensive Pokemon in the tier that could trouble it. Another thing is that its only reliable recover stands in Wish, but that's not really reliable at all as some people already said, bc it makes Lickilicky waste a turn, fundamental for opponents to set up or switch to a more favorable matchup, which is lethal for stall teams, and waste a moveslot too.
Mightyena from B+ to A-
I totally approve this from the moment Throh and Sneasel got banned, as Mightyena really is a premier choice for Dark-spam teams now(before it was also considered most of the times but now it gained even more usage), and from what I've seen and tried, it's just unstoppable against slow paced teams, as it can just steamroll a game thanks to Moxie, still being hard to revengekill from more fast teams thanks to Sucker Punch. Also wanna note its access to elemental fangs such as Ice and Fire Fang, Iron Tail and Play Rough, which make it a even more difficult Pokemon to especially counter.
Whirlipede / Venipede from B- to B:
I don't even know why these guys weren't B already LOL. Of course I approve this, also being an avid user of entry hazard stacking, Whirlipede and Venipede are the only fitting choices for Hyper Offense teams that want Spikes and Toxic Spikes support, being the fastest entry hazard setters thanks to Speed Boost, therefore able to place at least one layer spikes / toxic spikes more fast than any other option such as Roselia, still being sorta threatening with Endeavor. They're kept from being really good because they lose to some stealth rock leads, as the ones that carry Rock Blast totally obliterate them, other than being set up fodder for a lot of things into PU at the moment, especially now that the tier is filled with offensive powerhouses, which could be lethal for HO teams that count over not letting dangerous threats set up. STILL B RANK WORTH.
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Am I the only one who thinks Muchlax fits fine in C+? It's not going higher due to Lickilicky and Vigoroth having solid places over it, but it's also a counter to Aurorus and Ninetales in one mon, and beats pretty much every special attacker not named low kick simipour (which pretty much nothing walls anyway) and low kick heatmor (GasQuake make a post on this already). Oh, and I guess taunt misdreavus/haunter. Being able to counter Ninetales, Aurorus, Zebstrika and Rotom-F as well as beating a whole bunch of lesser threats like Seviper on its own gives it a solid place on balance and bulkier stall teams. While Crolax is underwhelming, a simple 252/252+ spdef set with rest/talk/whirlwind/body slam works fine, and can beat the ice types in the tier (as well as focus blast raichu) unlike Zweilous. I don't even think it has to compete with Lickilicky for a slot on stall, throh being gone means that running both is a definite possibility and Munchlax still has a solid niche over it. Hell, even wish leafeon isn't as bad as everybody thinks. Munchlax shouldn't go up, but it's fine at C+, and definitely better than a few things like Metang and Simisear.
Vullaby from C+ to B-
It's a defogger that isn't water, which automatically gives it more utility than most people realize, as it is actually one of the most reliable Jumpluff counters in the tier. It's immune to sleep powder and takes pitiful damage from acrobatics, while foul play is an easy 2hko after rocks. While it doesn't like losing its eviolite, it's also capable of walling Pawniard and Leafeon nicely, and can beat rapidash and stoutland in a 1v1, which is rare on defensive pokemon. It doesn't hurt that it also has a solid 60 speed and taunt, plus access to foul play, knock off, brave bird, heat wave (lures pawniard? havent tested this but it seems solid), whirlwind, toxic, and even a slow u-turn. Oh, and tailwind+u-turn, Nasty Plot and snatch for a few more unorthodox options (and even a specially defensive set seems passable). Vullaby deserves more love than it gets right now. Tagging 2xTheTap because he's played with it a lot and probably knows something else I missed.
252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 61-73 (17.7 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO nice counter
edit: I agree with what Raizae and Tone114 said about the nominations we were supposed to be discussing. Gogoat is cool and Lickilicky can drop, spikes HO is great right now and I wouldn't even be against mightyena for A if it came up, although A- is fine for now.
Vullaby from C+ to B-
It's a defogger that isn't water, which automatically gives it more utility than most people realize, as it is actually one of the most reliable Jumpluff counters in the tier. It's immune to sleep powder and takes pitiful damage from acrobatics, while foul play is an easy 2hko after rocks. While it doesn't like losing its eviolite, it's also capable of walling Pawniard and Leafeon nicely, and can beat rapidash and stoutland in a 1v1, which is rare on defensive pokemon. It doesn't hurt that it also has a solid 60 speed and taunt, plus access to foul play, knock off, brave bird, heat wave (lures pawniard? havent tested this but it seems solid), whirlwind, toxic, and even a slow u-turn. Oh, and tailwind+u-turn, Nasty Plot and snatch for a few more unorthodox options (and even a specially defensive set seems passable). Vullaby deserves more love than it gets right now. Tagging 2xTheTap because he's played with it a lot and probably knows something else I missed.
252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 61-73 (17.7 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO nice counter
edit: I agree with what Raizae and Tone114 said about the nominations we were supposed to be discussing. Gogoat is cool and Lickilicky can drop, spikes HO is great right now and I wouldn't even be against mightyena for A if it came up, although A- is fine for now.
Heatmor from B to B+
Heatmor has too much wall breaking power to be in the rank it is now. It has one solid thing stopping it being Ninetales and can even run priority to do well against even more offensive threats. It gets nasty coverage that makes it pressuring to switch in depending on its moves. It also gets a sweet ability being Flash Fire that means it can get free switchins on common Fire type attacks and have the ability to fire off a strong attacks on the opposition. With its coverage and its wallbreaking prowess with the ability to run very powerful moves like: Fire Blast, Giga Drain, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Superpower, and Low Kick it cant stay this low.
zard im done are you proud yet yn
Agreed, Simipour is just great. It's pretty fast, threatens all kind of teams & has a lot of wallbreaking power. Not to mention, losing one pokemon that outspeed & could do heavy dmg to Simipour is quite enjoyable. Simipour for A+
Golem for A-: Golem is pretty meh. I always felt like it was eh to begin with, WP is easy to play around, and the rise of some threats isn't helping him either. Idk honestly, i'd drop it even lower, as i'd prefer to run Dweeble, Barbaracle, Aurorus or even Rampardos as leads, i really think Golem became to redundant and easy to threaten, can't do anything aside from setting up rocks once. Maybe that's just me, but that's how i feel.
Approving, Simipour is just great at the moment. It's ability to make offensive and stall teams in shreds is a blessing for whoever uses it. I want to actually focus on the Mixed Attacker set, as it is the one I'm using the most recently, as I just feel like Simipour doesn't really a Nasty Plot boost to really succeed through the game, as a 110 BP STAB with a relatively high Special Attacking stat for the tier, along with Ice Beam to deal with most bulky Grass-types such as Gourgeist and Tangela, Grass Knot to completely screw Water-types such as Carracosta and Low Kick to give trouble to common special walls such as Lickilicky are well enough to carry a team to the victory, especially because most of the teams aren't really prepared to this thread, because the Nasty Plot set was the dominant one until little time ago. With this I'm not saying Nasty Plot is bad, instead, Simipour is also a great user of it indeed, and that makes it even more unpredictable for the opponent. Simipour still manages to pull off a lot of damage against the enemy team, especially with some support from the team, preferably offensive to keep up pressure to special walls and grass-types (entry hazard support is suggested here, especially by ts). Definitely worth an A+ Rank, as it is one of the better performing Pokemon in the tier at the moment.
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What puts Golem above most other leads at the moment is the fact that it can feasibily run Custap Berry (which means getting off a guaranteed hit after setting up unless you are against Torterra or Rampardos) while being a good offensive presence (and the damage an Earthquake or Explosion does can be more than what Spikes would do in some games especially if the opponent can Defog). Dwebble for example is clearly more effective at getting up multiple entry hazards but the freedom it gives to the opponent due to its shitty attack makes it quite a nuisance to offensive teams which are FORCED to run something like Kadabra or Ditto in order not to lose to random setup sweeper and thus limiting teambuilding. The other i would really consider for a reliable lead role is Barbaracle really because of its access to Taunt and the fact that it outspeeds Rampardos meaning it is a bit more reliable in getting up Stealth Rock himself and stopping the opponent is really nice but risks being pretty useless against balanced teams. Aurorus is similar to Barbaracle but trades the ability to Taunt with the ability to break Focus Sash/Sturdy w/ Hail Damage.
tldr pls dont drop Golem it is more useful in most matchups
Supporting Simipour to A+
Quick and late 1.5k posts shoutout
those i shoutout already + @ team italy (generale marco, slimmer, asuya, spippy, lase, bekins, dd, bomber, alex, mello, joe, mix, naci, atli, amber, livio, inflikted, fran, tricking etc.) + all the nice newer pu ppl like 2x, raiza, whoever
tldr pls dont drop Golem it is more useful in most matchups
Supporting Simipour to A+
Quick and late 1.5k posts shoutout
those i shoutout already + @ team italy (generale marco, slimmer, asuya, spippy, lase, bekins, dd, bomber, alex, mello, joe, mix, naci, atli, amber, livio, inflikted, fran, tricking etc.) + all the nice newer pu ppl like 2x, raiza, whoever