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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

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Empoleon: B- > B

I'm not particularly sure about this, but I'm leaning towards yes. Empoleon definitely has a solid typing, and decent bulk, and quite a bit of versatility, from setting up rocks, defogging, phazing, and Scald is such a highly distributed and annoying move that can be considered a point above Heatran, since the only type immune to burns is weak to it. The decline of Magnezone doesn't hurt either, putting less pressure on it. Its bulk may seem rather mediocre, further worsened by no reliable recovery, but it definitely can stomach it's fair share of hits.

Skarmory: B+ > A-

I agree on this as well, in a sense that applies to defensive sets and Custap sets as well. Along with Empoleon, Skarmory benefits from the decline of Magnezone, meaning that Shed Shell is no longer as needed, and it can run items such as Leftovers and Rocky Helmet to help. The recent release of the Custap helps as well, allowing it to fit on playstyles such as HO as a lead that can often set up Stealth Rocks and an layer of Spikes as well as having access to Taunt to keep hazards off its side of the field. However, it's not exactly impossible to play around Custap and limit the layer of hazards to one, which is somewhat of a byproduct of not having a low level Skarmory with Berry Juice, but at the same time, it can actually hit targets and deal damage.

M-Medicham: C+ to B-/B

Yes. While I always believed that Mega Gallade was superior to Mega Medicham from the start of ORAS, I never really thought that it should have been all the way down in the C ranks. STAB Pure Power HJK still hits like a truck, and to put its power into perspective, it has over an eighty percent chance to OHKO Mega Metagross after rocks. Zen Headbutt can hit a few Fighting resists neutrally, and while it does not offer great coverage, it still hits things hard. Personally, I don't really find Bullet Punch all that useful over coverage, but it definitely has its place in a moveslot. Baton Pass is another interesting factor, as dry passing does essentially function as a non-damaging U-turn that escapes Pursuit, which can help it gain momentum provided the opponent does have a counter to Medicham. While Mega Gallade may outclass it in almost every way, MMedi's immediate power is a bigger pro than I think other were making it out to be at early ORAS.

Starmie: A to A+

I nominated Starmie last time to go up to A, but I don't agree with it going up to A+. Defensive sets are quite passive with an uninvested and unboosted base 100 SpA, and have to choose between Reflect Type and Psyshock. Offensive sets tend to be easily worn down and are quite frail as well, so Starmie will get less chances to fire off an Analytic boosted attack, and even then, it often finds itself spinning on a predicted switch.

Tyrantrum: C+ to B-

I personally have not used Tyrantrum at all, but I have faced it and I know how powerful its Head Smash is. Fortunately for me, I happened to carry a Chesnaught at the time, but it still pulled its weight. The only real drawback that it has is the possibility of Head Smash missing, which definitely sucks. It's also a bit more on the versatile side, choice items being viable options, Dragon Dance and Rock Polish work for cleaning, and it gets a few vital resists too, most notably flying. It also possesses enough coverage to hit most things that can wall its STABs, such as Superpower, which makes it even harder to switch into. Definitely deserves B- IMO.

Alakazam: C to C+

I agree with this as well. Its bulk may be paper thin, and it might be rather dependent on the ever unreliable Focus Blast, but it has some other positive traits, such as an excellent ability, a sweet speed tier, and usable power (Which becomes more then a little threatening if its LO). Focus Sash also allows for it to be a safety switch regardless of hazards, thanks to its excellent ability again, which allows it to paralyze or eliminate set-up sweepers. It may have more than its fair share of flaws, but I believe it fits with the likes of Bronzong, Thundurus-T, Magneton, and vanilla Heracross.
 
Only one nomination here I feel like I know well to weigh in on.

Tyrantrum: C+ to B-

This is a nomination that my experience leads me to support whole heartedly. I posted about it another time, but Tyrantrum is a very effective Wallbreaker, just because his absurd power makes him capable of removing almost any 1-2 threats per match, so he can very well support many sweepers by breaking a member of a defensive core. While not too impressive on the defensive, Rock is an extremely good offensive typing, coupled with 150 BP STAB and Tyrantrum's decent 121 Base Attack, often backed by an Adamant nature because of its okay but not great speed (though outspeeding the Base 70 tier is nice for Bisharp).

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 180-213 (45.6 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Never get tired of seeing this one)

The power is obscene enough to 2HKO even many resists w/ some hazards

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 135-159 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 144-169 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (Not the bulkiest, but that's still a 4x resistance)

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 170-201 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Swampert: 176-207 (51.6 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 200-236 (56.9 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Tyrantrum is one of the few wallbreakers I've seen that can boast that nothing in OU avoids a 2HKO. Two of his bulkiest resistors, Chesnaught and Hippowdon, can be 2HKO'd by Outrage

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Outrage vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 214-253 (50.9 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 193-228 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Having resistances to both Fire and Flying attacks make Tyrantrum pretty much a hard answer to any Talonflame set, assuming the bird is the main thing you need to eliminate. Even burned, Tyrantrum isn't losing unless Talonflame has a ridiculous amount of Bulk up Boosts because of that rock weakness.
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. +4 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 338-402 (94.1 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

So many teams, be they Stall, Balance, or Offense appreciate the elimination of Talonflame that that could very well be the ONLY work he needs to put in to help secure a win. Tyrantrum also can take some physical priority pretty well, able to survive bulky Mega Scizor's BP even after rocks and resisting Aqua Jet (important for Azumarill, since Tyrantrum is actually faster)

96+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 186-222 (60.7 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 103-123 (33.6 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 384-453 (111.9 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And this is all just the Choice Band set. Though I haven't played them, people have found success with DD sets or Rock Polish cleaners as well. Tyrantrum reminds me a lot of some of the "Post Aegislash" Mega Wallbreakers like Gardevoir and Medicham: they don't have the easiest time getting in, but if they do, all you have to do is click the right move (usually a STAB) and something WILL die. That inability to be effectively walled in so few moves (compared to most other wallbreakers sometimes needing to at least consider coverage for a few things) seems like enough to push Tyrantrum up to the B- ranks.

He seems at least as effective in that role as Mega Garchomp or Toxicroak would be in theirs, compared to more niche C+ mons like Thundurus-T (usually relegated to select Rain Teams), Staraptor (with Bird Spam declining), or Magneton (who I'm not sure has a worthwhile niche over Magnezone for their Scarf sets with Greninja gone)
 
I have a nom: Vanilla Gardevoir for D rank.

After seeing it in mid ladder a couple of times, I thought it did pretty well. It has a decent movepool, good STAB and typing, usable S.Atk and is able to take special hits decently. It is able to check Keldeo and M.Alt too, which is quite useful. So, my points in short:

- Good typing, both offensively and defensively
- Good base 125 S.Atk and 115 S.Def allow it to do some damage and take the occasional hit if it misses a 2HKO
- Has good support options in Healing Wish, Trick and Memento
- Checks some relevant threats such as Keldeo and MAlt
- Can trace Swift Swim off Kingdra or M.Swampert and proceed to trash a rain team
- Has a niche in it's scarf set

I know it's physical bulk is pitiful, and it's poor HP cuts the usefulness of it's good S.Def, but unranked is just wrong, it needs to be in D.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 174-205 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 237-280 (85.2 - 100.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 160-189 (57.5 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 117-138 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO / 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 330-390 (102.1 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gardevoir can switch into any move of specs Keldeo bar hydro pump and KO back, and can revenge scarf Keldeo, but can't take 2 hits if rocks are up, unless it's secret sword or HP Whatever.

252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 166-196 (59.7 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 104-123 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Altaria Draco Meteor vs. Gardevoir: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 301-355 (108.2 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 152-179 (54.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 121-144 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 290-344 (99.6 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 290-344 (81.9 - 97.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Gardevoir can check offensive MAlt, switching into any move of special M.Alt once and OHKOing back. It can switch into any move bar return on offensive DD M.Alt and KO. It can beat Bulky MAlt, but falls short of a OHKO, so needs chip to switch in + win.

It can also lure the following (and more but I too lazy for more calcing):

252 SpA Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 242-286 (74.9 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 186-220 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 194-230 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Edit: Got some replays (they suck but w/e):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-222687771 - Garde helps me beat a Milotic with alot less effort than I would have needed without the scarf trick.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-222701047 - a show of unsuspecting bulk due to a multiscale trace to finish a victory.
 
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s0me1 b0red said:
I have a nom: Vanilla Gardevoir for D rank.

After seeing it in mid ladder a couple of times, I thought it did pretty well. It has a decent movepool, good STAB and typing, usable S.Atk and is able to take special hits decently. It is able to check Keldeo and M.Alt too, which is quite useful. So, my points in short:

- Good typing, both offensively and defensively
- Good base 125 S.Atk and 115 S.Def allow it to do some damage and take the occasional hit if it misses a 2HKO
- Has good support options in Healing Wish, Trick and Memento
- Checks some relevant threats such as Keldeo and MAlt
- Can trace Swift Swim off Kingdra or M.Swampert and proceed to trash a rain team
- Has a niche in it's scarf set

I know it's physical bulk is pitiful, and it's poor HP cuts the usefulness of it's good S.Def, but unranked is just wrong, it needs to be in D.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 174-205 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 237-280 (85.2 - 100.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 160-189 (57.5 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 117-138 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO / 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 330-390 (102.1 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gardevoir can switch into any move of specs Keldeo bar hydro pump and KO back, and can revenge scarf Keldeo, but can't take 2 hits if rocks are up, unless it's secret sword or HP Whatever.

252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 166-196 (59.7 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 104-123 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Altaria Draco Meteor vs. Gardevoir: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 301-355 (108.2 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 152-179 (54.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 121-144 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 290-344 (99.6 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 290-344 (81.9 - 97.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Gardevoir can check offensive MAlt, switching into any move of special M.Alt once and OHKOing back. It can switch into any move bar return on offensive DD M.Alt and KO. It can beat Bulky MAlt, but falls short of a OHKO, so needs chip to switch in + win.

It can also lure the following (and more but I too lazy for more calcing):

252 SpA Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 242-286 (74.9 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 186-220 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 194-230 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I don't have any good replays right now, but I will get some later (I've gtg now).
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Yeah, I'd have to agree with this. There's a lot of better scarfers out there, but Gardevoir is still pretty decent in the role, and she's one of the few good Fairy type scarfers that I know of. She has quite a few flaws, but I still don't think D-rank is too much of a stretch for her.
 
I agree with Gardevoir for D rank. It's a passable scarfer that can revenge kill a good amount of pokemon in the metagame (lati twins, keldeo, altaria, sableye), while also having some really cool support options such as destiny bond, memento, trick will o wisp (sucky move to be locked into but I guess it can still be used as a last minute answer to some physical attackers), and healing wish. It has trouble switching in on stuff because of its bad physical bulk but it's still a decent scarfer that has solid utility options so I think it's deserving of D.
 
Gardevoir is more deserving of D than some of the current ones, chiefly Rotom-H. Trace is super useful especially with Sand being more prominent, and Rain is as dangerous as it always has been. It has M-Garde's coverage and can be annoying for weather teams to remove. I frequently play sand and rain, and Garde is hard to get rid of, more so for rain than sand (TTar can trap it). I know Karxrida wanted it ranked a while back, and I still think it is deserving of it.
 
I only got a few opinions on these mons being discussed so this wont be a long one ;]

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Alakazam to C+: Zam has been seeing a lot of usage recently and for good reason. The LO set which is probably the best set atm is a very potent wallbreaker against a lot of these balance teams running around because of its incredible coverage options like hp ice/fire dazzling gleam etc and with a nice damage output to back it up. Zam's speed tier is also a very nice base 120 allowing it to out speed the ass load of base 110s along with the 115 like starmie, raikou, and Mega mane which allows zam to be a pretty sweet revenge killer along with providing the potential to clean late game. While the sash sets seem to feel more underwhelming as you have to rely on your coverage to provide your damage output they do have a nice niche of taking on offense better because it's basically 2 free attacks or a free twave to stop a threat or revenge something trying to sweep you up. Overall alakazam looks a lot more useful then the C rank mons and should be moved up to C+ where it looks like it fits in better imo.

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Skarmory to A-: I'm gonna agree to move skarm up as well. Being one of the few reliable Mmeta counters(outside of hammer arm shenanigans) and a nice stop to a lot of the physical threats and fairies in the meta makes skarm a pretty cool mon to have on some of these balance teams that are running all over the place. The spdef set is also pretty useful too as it counter Mdiancie(takes max 49 from hp fire) and also take on the latis and other dragons and fairies in the meta as well. The most notable change to skarm that warrants a rise has to be the prevalence of the custap set. Almost a guaranteed stealth rock and 1 layer of spikes while taunting opposing hazard setters is a very valuable trait to have for HO these days especially since this set uses iron head to bop diancie which a lot of the other HO leads cannot do(hp steel diancie tho;] ) So to me nothing has changed in the meta to make skarmory worse and it gained a whole new set so that should be enough to warrant a rise to the land of A-.
 
firehusky said:
I agree with Gardevoir for D rank. It's a passable scarfer that can revenge kill a good amount of pokemon in the metagame (lati twins, keldeo, altaria, sableye), while also having some really cool support options such as destiny bond, memento, trick will o wisp (sucky move to be locked into but I guess it can still be used as a last minute answer to some physical attackers), and healing wish. It has trouble switching in on stuff because of its bad physical bulk but it's still a decent scarfer that has solid utility options so I think it's deserving of D.
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I agree with Gardevoir being at least listed for D-Rank. I've used it once, when I first made an OU team. Like, ever.
Like, this was when ScarfChomp was on every team. Ever. But hey, in the one time I ever used it... it was pretty good.
It could easily break down walls with Trick, Encore is nice with a Scarf because you'll be faster than a lot of things, and its new Fairy typing does it a lot of favors. Yep.

Gardevoir for D-Rank!
 
I've thrown in my support for vanilla Gardevoir to D before, and I might as well throw it in again. Garde doesn't have much competition for its role - a Scarfer that supports its team as well as revenge kill, thanks to its endless movepool including all of Trick, Destiny Bond, Memento and Healing Wish - with the only viable one off the top of my head being Jirachi, which has much more physical bulk, U-Turn and Serene Grace Iron Head but also has a Dark weakness and lacks the almighty Trace.

Considering the garbage that gets added to D, why not a Pokemon that genuinely deserves it?

Also, I agree with Hippowdon rising to A+, although I'll admit that I'm biased and won't mind if it stays where it is. Either way, the bulky bastard's been my main 'Mon since its introduction and it's never let me down, and it's an absolute crime that it's only UU by usage. Use Hippowdon more, people!
 
I would like to second vanilla Gardevoir for D rank, primarily for the versatility and utility that its scarf set has to offer. It's been nominated before, and it definitely still deserves a place on the viability rankings. With the ever so prominent and solid Fairy STAB, decent secondary STAB that can also help stop a Sub CM Keldeo, and a massive pool of support options, although most of the more viable ones have been mentioned, they contribute to its unpredictability. Trace is situational, but it's anything but amongst the worst abilities. You can pull of stuff like what was mentioned in the nomination post, or Trace cool stuff like Multiscale, No Guard for your Focus Blasts, Prankster for the last slot's support move, and Magic Bounce.
 
dramadrama said:
hey i cant see a point of posting 5 lines about pokemon, like 'i dont know, but i think it deserves a rise, it has good typing and coverage'. pls if you have no oppinion just dont post it
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Not sure if this is directed at me, but it could have been, and this post really upset me, so I want to respond. As someone who is new to posting here, I may be way outta line/in the minority opinion, but here goes. There are two reasons I don't like this post.
1. What exactly does it try to accomplish? Make the thread less cluttered? Well, when dozens (hundreds?) of people post their opinions in a fairly open forum, it's going to become cluttered anyway. At an average of around 30 posts/day with two pages of discussion about stuff like Forretress and crap nominations like Tauros and Pachirisu, you can't tell me that the thread isn't already cluttered. I would actually say that the thread being cluttered is a side effect of an open public forum, and ultimately, that's a good thing.
2. I'm not trying to speak for the ranking team, but I would posit that players saying they have no opinion still gives the team some information about the metagame, even if those statements are coming from low/mid level players. No opinion is still an opinion of sorts.

Anyway, rant over. Some thoughts on other noms:
Vanilla Gardevoir was D-rank, but I believe it was removed in the last low rank clean-up. That being said, I would support its placement in D. It definitely has a niche in OU as a weather offense check and the only viable scarfed fairy. Its speed tier is okay for a scarfer, and it has a free moveslot to cripple its would be checks/counters with Destiny Bond, Will-O-Wisp, Trick, etc.
I actually hadn't used Hippo much before my last post, but I've made a few teams with him on them, and I've got to say that I'm impressed with his capabilities when I used him on the ladder. He can be a nice defensive check to such a large portion of the meta and reliable recovery and SR resistance are huge boons. Hippo's versatility is also really nice too, especially with SR and Whirlwind. It doesn't have 4MSS because it can be effective with only four moves, but having to make that choice between utility and checking/countering other mons with its last couple moveslots keeps it in A for me. I see it being on par with Ferrothorn and Rotom-W, though they all do different things.
 
theurbandear said:
Not sure if this is directed at me, but it could have been, and this post really upset me, so I want to respond. As someone who is new to posting here, I may be way outta line/in the minority opinion, but here goes. There are two reasons I don't like this post.
1. What exactly does it try to accomplish? Make the thread less cluttered? Well, when dozens (hundreds?) of people post their opinions in a fairly open forum, it's going to become cluttered anyway. At an average of around 30 posts/day with two pages of discussion about stuff like Forretress and crap nominations like Tauros and Pachirisu, you can't tell me that the thread isn't already cluttered. I would actually say that the thread being cluttered is a side effect of an open public forum, and ultimately, that's a good thing.
2. I'm not trying to speak for the ranking team, but I would posit that players saying they have no opinion still gives the team some information about the metagame, even if those statements are coming from low/mid level players. No opinion is still an opinion of sorts.

Anyway, rant over. Some thoughts on other noms:
Vanilla Gardevoir was D-rank, but I believe it was removed in the last low rank clean-up. That being said, I would support its placement in D. It definitely has a niche in OU as a weather offense check and the only viable scarfed fairy. Its speed tier is okay for a scarfer, and it has a free moveslot to cripple its would be checks/counters with Destiny Bond, Will-O-Wisp, Trick, etc.
I actually hadn't used Hippo much before my last post, but I've made a few teams with him on them, and I've got to say that I'm impressed with his capabilities when I used him on the ladder. He can be a nice defensive check to such a large portion of the meta and reliable recovery and SR resistance are huge boons. Hippo's versatility is also really nice too, especially with SR and Whirlwind. It doesn't have 4MSS because it can be effective with only four moves, but having to make that choice between utility and checking/countering other mons with its last couple moveslots keeps it in A for me. I see it being on par with Ferrothorn and Rotom-W, though they all do different things.
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I'm pretty sure it was directed at me. I was a lot more uncertain with my nominations barring Mega Medicham, and to an extent, Skarmory.
 
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theurbandear said:
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Tyrantrum: C+ to B-
I haven't used Tyrantrum at all, but from what I've seen its banded set alone warrants a rise. Banded STAB 150 BP move with no drawbacks? Yeah, this thing is a nuke.
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there you have an perfect example. my msg wasnt directed to only you, posts giving oppinion on every discussed mon became more popular, we dont vote here, by posting sth 'dumb' you dont help anybody, you just waste space and your own time. everyone has the right to give their oppinions but i just ask you to think twice before posting it.
ps. its not a right place to discuss this, lets end this
 
dramadrama said:
there you have an perfect example. my msg wasnt directed to only you, posts giving oppinion on every discussed mon became more popular, we dont vote here, by posting sth 'dumb' you dont help anybody, you just waste space and your own time. everyone has the right to give their oppinions but i just ask you to think twice before posting it.
ps. its not a right place to discuss this, lets end this
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You're right that this isn't the place, and I won't post about it again. But I just want you to consider if reading a few extra sentences here and there is really that much of a burden.
 
Calm down dramadrama. The people are just trying to talk about whats been outlined as the current slate, and theres absolutely nothing wrong with saying "I havent used this so I dont have any personal experience but from what ive seen it's pretty good" because theyre simply just making sure theyve covered everything weve been asked to. Its bad enough that a lot of new users get harshly flamed for doing the wrong thing but when users are actually following the rules and end up getting flamed it kinda shows why people feel smogon is such a hostile place for new users. I find it especially dumb to see that you, a fairly new user yourself, is the one talking shit. Just keep this in mind this in future.
 
Flamer said:
Calm down dramadrama. The people are just trying to talk about whats been outlined as the current slate, and theres absolutely nothing wrong with saying "I havent used this so I dont have any personal experience but from what ive seen it's pretty good" because theyre simply just making sure theyve covered everything weve been asked to. Its bad enough that a lot of new users get harshly flamed for doing the wrong thing but when users are actually following the rules and end up getting flamed it kinda shows why people feel smogon is such a hostile place for new users. I find it especially dumb to see that you, a fairly new user yourself, is the one talking shit. Just keep this in mind this in future.
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I'm a new user myself and actually i was scared of posting about things i don't know much of.

Now the actual reply.

I support vanilla gardevoir for D rank because of the little versitality it has. It could also run synchronize instead of trace (altough trace is the best option) for a surprise factor or helping in wall/stallbreaking where she has a little niche in. She also has some support moves in wish (altough there are better wish supporters), healing wish, destiny bond, taunt, pain split (a bit useful with the low base HP), memento, encore, heal bell and even trick (wich has a great niche in the sets gardevoir usually runs)! Any of these moves are really viable support alongside 3 attacking moves.
 
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-> B/B-

Suicune is not really good in the current metagame and suffers from the competiton of others bulky Water-types.
As a defensive Water-type, he's mostly outclassed by Slowbro, who has a generally better typing, a far better movepool and access to reliable recovery.
Offensively, he's outclassed by Manaphy who has better movepool (can pass his checks with the right move), Tail Glow (makes him a very dangerous threat in one turn) and a form of reliable recovery with RD+Rest.
Finally, Mega Slowbro mostly outclasses Suicune on everything he does. Ok Suicune is faster and doesn't take a mega slot, but speed is not really useful on Suicune and Megabro has so many advantages over Suicune : reliable recovery, monstruous defense, immunity to crits, Psyshock, powerful even without boost.

Suicune has some niches over Manaphy (high defense) and Slowbros (not weak to Dark and Bug, speed) but he's still mostly outclassed and is very luck reliant with Sleep Talk (basically 33% chance to pick the right move and 33% chance to wast your turn).
 
i gotta say i want to make a shaky ass nom that will probably get me hate but w/e

Mr. Hothead edit: replaced with less obnoxious image:

450.png


Hippo A ----> A+

I mean, this guy is like a staple to balance. The reason why bulky Landorus Therian is seeing less usage is because of this guy. The reason why Birdspam is seeing less usage is mainly this guys doing. With nearly unmatchable bulk and a single typing with recovery, this thing isnt easy to whittle down.

This thing is like a Slowbro with supportive capabilities. It can set up rocks to do residual damage to switchins. Sand is a perfect way to help out your own team and give residual damage to the other team. It can Toxic pokemon such as Slowbro on switchin and other stuff. It also has access to Roar, which means it also has ways to stop DDancers such as Char X. Even more, if it doesnt want to run Sand Stream because its team will have no benefit for it, it can use Sand Force to stop sand teams very well. Excadrill has a chance to OHKO its Mixed set at +2 at most, so that shows how bulky it is.

Speaking of Bulk, lets check a few calcs, shall we?

Physical Wall Set Calcs:

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 114-135 (27.1 - 32.1%) -- 45.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 320-384 (76.1 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 151-178 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 210-248 (50 - 59%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 230-280 (54.7 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318-375 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+4 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 330-388 (78.5 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mixed Set Calcs:

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Hippowdon in Sun: 331-391 (78.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Hippowdon: 154-182 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Hippowdon: 272-324 (64.7 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 335-395 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Hippowdon: 265-313 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Dont wanna flood you guys with calcs, but that proves my point pretty well.

With its ability to check almost every Electric in the game, a lot of offensive mons like Talonflame and Landorus T, and force switch outs AND have a great supportive role, this is deserving for A+. Its 108/118/72 bulk is amazing and it can take on a lot of high ranked mons. I also think its on the same level as Heatran, Lando T, Lop, TFlame, etc. in terms of viability.

Before i stop, lets look at the shit it stops:

S:

MMeta
MAlt

A+:

Bisharp
MZard X
Mega Diancie
Heatran
Lando T
Mega Lopunny
Talonflame
Thundurus (to an extent)

A:

Mega Zard Y (not really)
Excadrill
Garchomp
Itself
Mega Manectric
Tyranitar

A-:

Mega Aero
Mega Gallade
Rachi
Klefki
Mega Pinsir
Raikou
Volcarona

All in all, with all its abilities to be a wall, a supportive threat, a wall with recovery (very few good mons have that attribute), and a sand abuser, this mon is worth a rank that resides with mons like Gliscor and Heatran live, both are pretty big balance users.

Probably gonna get some agrees and disagrees, but thats all part of our opinions. Thanks for reading.

A+.

edit: 1 like and no quotes... no1 likes me ;(
 
Last edited:
On the topic of vanilla gardevoir it's been something brought up earlier on in this thread but I support ranking it. It's a passable scarfer that can revenge kill a good chunk of the tier and it revenges weather sweepers with trace and those are really threatening,also it has a lot of support options to aid it's team.

It's not the best thing ever nor is it something I'd use on every team but it's certainly viable and worthy enough of a rank to be listed.
 
Ptyra said:
245.png
-> B/B-

Suicune is not really good in the current metagame and suffers from the competiton of others bulky Water-types.
As a defensive Water-type, he's mostly outclassed by Slowbro, who has a generally better typing, a far better movepool and access to reliable recovery.
Offensively, he's outclassed by Manaphy who has better movepool (can pass his checks with the right move), Tail Glow (makes him a very dangerous threat in one turn) and a form of reliable recovery with RD+Rest.
Finally, Mega Slowbro mostly outclasses Suicune on everything he does. Ok Suicune is faster and doesn't take a mega slot, but speed is not really useful on Suicune and Megabro has so many advantages over Suicune : reliable recovery, monstruous defense, immunity to crits, Psyshock, powerful even without boost.

Suicune has some niches over Manaphy (high defense) and Slowbros (not weak to Dark and Bug, speed) but he's still mostly outclassed and is very luck reliant with Sleep Talk (basically 33% chance to pick the right move and 33% chance to wast your turn).
Click to expand...
Yeah this nom doesn't make much sense other than using arbitrary comparisons and missing out on some important details. Like Suicune isn't dark weak which makes it not as prone to stuff like Ttar, pursuit, Crawdaunt, general Dark Spam. Also the whole outclass argument just falls flat in its face when you realize that Manaphy is sitting 2 subranks higher than it and is already established what is the more useful water type, same deal with Slowbros although nitpicking very transparent similarities. Lol Mega Slowbro is a mega it's not even as easily implemented as Suicune would be if we're talking about water options and the way Suicune is used allows it to mitigate the hazard stacking teams by virtue of its most popular set. If you're gonna make a legitimate argument talk about stuff that pre-occupies the sub-rank you're advocating it for. Throwing out the words "outclassed" doesn't strengthen your case.
 
Mr. Hothead said:
i gotta say i want to make a shaky ass nom that will probably get me hate but w/e

Mr. Hothead edit: replaced with less obnoxious image:

450.png


Hippo A ----> A+

I mean, this guy is like a staple to balance. The reason why bulky Landorus Therian is seeing less usage is because of this guy. The reason why Birdspam is seeing less usage is mainly this guys doing. With nearly unmatchable bulk and a single typing with recovery, this thing isnt easy to whittle down.

This thing is like a Slowbro with supportive capabilities. It can set up rocks to do residual damage to switchins. Sand is a perfect way to help out your own team and give residual damage to the other team. It can Toxic pokemon such as Slowbro on switchin and other stuff. It also has access to Roar, which means it also has ways to stop DDancers such as Char X. Even more, if it doesnt want to run Sand Stream because its team will have no benefit for it, it can use Sand Force to stop sand teams very well. Excadrill has a chance to OHKO its Mixed set at +2 at most, so that shows how bulky it is.

Speaking of Bulk, lets check a few calcs, shall we?

Physical Wall Set Calcs:

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 114-135 (27.1 - 32.1%) -- 45.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 320-384 (76.1 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 151-178 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 210-248 (50 - 59%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 230-280 (54.7 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318-375 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+4 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 330-388 (78.5 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mixed Set Calcs:

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Hippowdon in Sun: 331-391 (78.8 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Hippowdon: 154-182 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Hippowdon: 272-324 (64.7 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 335-395 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Hippowdon: 265-313 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Dont wanna flood you guys with calcs, but that proves my point pretty well.

With its ability to check almost every Electric in the game, a lot of offensive mons like Talonflame and Landorus T, and force switch outs AND have a great supportive role, this is deserving for A+. Its 108/118/72 bulk is amazing and it can take on a lot of high ranked mons. I also think its on the same level as Heatran, Lando T, Lop, TFlame, etc. in terms of viability.

Before i stop, lets look at the shit it stops:

S:

MMeta
MAlt

A+:

Bisharp
MZard X
Mega Diancie
Heatran
Lando T
Mega Lopunny
Talonflame
Thundurus (to an extent)

A:

Mega Zard Y (not really)
Excadrill
Garchomp
Itself
Mega Manectric
Tyranitar

A-:

Mega Aero
Mega Gallade
Rachi
Klefki
Mega Pinsir
Raikou
Volcarona

All in all, with all its abilities to be a wall, a supportive threat, a wall with recovery (very few good mons have that attribute), and a sand abuser, this mon is worth a rank that resides with mons like Gliscor and Heatran live, both are pretty big balance users.

Probably gonna get some agrees and disagrees, but thats all part of our opinions. Thanks for reading.

A+.

edit: 1 like and no quotes... no1 likes me ;(
Click to expand...

The problem with Hippo is its bad case of 4MSS. Slack Off and Earthquake are mandatory on every set, so depending on its other two moves it's going to be a huge sitting duck against something.
I think we can agree that besides the two move I mentioned, its 4 most useful ones are Toxic, Roar, Stealth Rock and Stone Edge.
It *needs* Stone Edge to be able to do anything against Taunt Talonflame, Gyarados and Air Balloon Heatran/Excadrill, it *needs* Stealth Rock so Skarmory is forced to Defog rather than use Hippo as Spikes bait, it *needs* Toxic to be able to do anything against Slowbro, it *needs* Roar to phaze Clefable. And let's not even get started on common threats such as Mega Sableye and Gliscor who just use Hippo as their bitch regardless.
Hippo is just too passive against several common offensive and defensive threats, which prevents it from being A+ material.
 
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