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Suicune really isnt A+ material in my opinion. There are no stall mons in A+ other than suicune, and Suicune really isnt as good as chansey or cressila. A more offensive QD suicune is still much easier to take care of than other A+ threats like Pinsir.
Also,
B------B+
Mamoswine is REALLY powerful with refridgerate. It's an amazing wallbreaker, with very strong dual-stabs with return and EQ. WIth how common lando-T is, I feel Mamoswine is a step ahead of its "collegues" in B, such as celibi and mega pidgeot.
Here are my two cents on Arena Trap. Trapping abilities are extremely powerful in any meta. Some people consider trapping abilities (barring Magnet Pull which only works on Steel types) to be uncompetitive because they remove one of the biggest stratedies (switching) in competitive Pokemon. For this reason, UU and tiers below it have banned Shadow Tag entirely, even on Gothita. Ubers even considered banning Shadow Tag altogether. Arena Trap is almost as good as Shadow Tag except that it cannot trap flying types and levitators. The main reason why Arena Trap has never been seriously considered for banning in any standard tier is because Dugtrio and Trapinch are horrible. Dugtrio has a bad movepool, a low attack, and no bulk. Trapinch also has a bad movepool to go along with no bulk and no speed. Obviously, Arena Trap is banned in BH and AAA because you have the freedom to use the abilities on any Pokemon and can have good movepools to go along with it.
Inheritance is halfway between AAA and standard play in that you have the freedom to put Arena Trap on any Pokemon, but are forced to use the movepool of Dugtrio / Trapinch. The problem with Arena Trap in Inheritance is that you can still put Arena Trap on good Pokemon to make them good trappers. Landorus-T is perfectly content to take Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Sucker Punch from Dugtrio since it has the power to kill anything that isn't a physical wall. Defensive trappers may be a possibility too. Chansey might be able to use Arena Trap to Toxic stall a special attacker and Rest might be the only recovery it needs since it is so hard to break from that side. Moves like Charm (from Dugtrio), Confide, Struggle Bug (from Trapinch), and Sand Attack / Mud Slap (if you really want to be a dick) could be viable since we're talking about trappers here. There is also Scarf + Final Gambit Blissey which is suicidal but usually allows you to take out an opponent's Pokemon of your choosing. I haven't seen any broken Arena Trap strategies yet, but they could appear given the ability to put Arena Trap on Pokemon with the offensive and defensive presence to take advantage of the movepools of Trapinch and Dugtrio which are shallow but possibly good enough to abuse.
Small nitpick, you should state that Raikou really shouldn't even attemt to switch into bird spam and should't be your only check. BB from Landorus does 68-80. Salamence only has a slight damage drop off. Mega Pinsir has a tiny chance to 2HKO after rocks with Espeed. Why wouldn't you want to inherit from Primal Ogre though?
Yes, that is why I said Raikou is a check. If it switched in and walled those threats then it would be called a counter. I chose not to use Primal Ogre Raikou on this set b/c isn't immune to water type attacks, so it would no longer serve as a check to other Primordial Sea users. It also doesn't have access to Volt Switch. Don't get me wrong, Primordial Seas Raikou with Thunder is very good, it just doesn't fill the role that I set out for it with the set I gave.
Additional question to anyone who knows the answer, is there a RMT section for other metas or no?
I completely understand what everyone is saying about Arena Trap, but personally, I'd like to see it in action. Maybe I've just had bad match ups, but I've never seen anyone using Arena Trap in such a way that I felt that it was broken/should be banned. Basically, I'd like to see a replay of it being used in such a way as to merit a ban.
I completely understand what everyone is saying about Arena Trap, but personally, I'd like to see it in action. Maybe I've just had bad match ups, but I've never seen anyone using Arena Trap in such a way that I felt that it was broken/should be banned. Basically, I'd like to see a replay of it being used in such a way as to merit a ban.
First of all, you didn't provide a replay, and secondly, if it didn't matter then how does that mean it warrants a ban? He was asking for proof it needs to go, and this comment seems to be irrelevant as it pertains to his post.
Maybe we could just sit down for a moment and laugh at people you encounter at low ladder: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223323510
Unlike you, this guy didn't like the fact I just trapped and took out his precious Darmanitan LOL. I guess he votes for banning Arena Trap. Btw look at that lvl 25 Gengar he switches in just before he forfeited.
Maybe we could just sit down for a moment and laugh at people you encounter at low ladder: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223323510
Unlike you, this guy didn't like the fact I just trapped and took out his precious Darmanitan LOL. I guess he votes for banning Arena Trap. Btw look at that lvl 25 Gengar he switches in just before he forfeited.
While Suicune is incredibly versatile, none of its roles really stand out as A+ worthy to me. I find Unaware Cressila to be better than Unaware Suicune, and with Poison Heal, it loses reliable water STAB. Quiverpass is its best set in my opinion, and even then I don't find it A+ worthy. Stall can obletarte suicune with taunt/unaware, and offensive teams have priority spam that deals massive damage to suicune. Too much pressure can constantly be applied for its quiverpass set to be A+. I think that A is a better fit for it.
I know many will probably disagree with me, but hear me out.
Arena Trap may not be the most useful ability, but it appears to be quite unhealthy. As someone stated earlier, Arena Trap users are capable of disposing of walls with ease. While this alone isn't a good argument, let's remember the sheer variety and unexpectedness of this metagame. Arena Trap performs ideally against stall and balanced; as such, Arena Trap's apparent unhealthiness is rather unexplored. One may even choose to use a Grass-type such as Shaymin or Roserade to use Arena Trap in conjunction with Giga Drain (inheriting from Trapinch) to defeat walls such as Suicune, Rhyperior, and Diancie. Let's compare Gothitelle to Arena Trap: Gothitelle rose to OU with just Shadow Tag alone, and while many may find Gothitelle to not be centralising enough to warrant a ban, it's very different in Arena Trap's case; let's just call this Gothitelle's legacy, as trap abilities seem to be viable everywhere. Arena Trap's variety, unpredictability, and capability of dispatching walls with ease justifies a suspect in my opinion.
But thats the problem. You say that Gothitelle rose to OU, but it is now NOT centralizing enough to warrant a ban. Meanwhile, Arena trap has a very small movepool and it is even more predictable once you determine the set, and its even worse. Therefore, the only factor we have to justify a ban is the unpredictability of when it could happen. Thats it. The capability of it to dispatch walls can be comparable to running iron tail on your azelf*; except that Iron tail on Azelf costs one moveslot; arena trap costs a teamslot. This is inheritance. There are all kinds of mons we can ban if we can call them "too hard to predict viably." This is the one thing that makes inheritance stall balanced and not overly powerful, and is also keeping the metagame balanced right now. The current metagame's unpredictability troubles all teams, and makes it that much more difficult to be truly successful.
Allow me to disagree; While Arena Trap's presence on a mon could be unexpected, the movepools of both trappers are hideously shallow, being entirely physical with some very insignifcant exceptions (Trapinch gets Giga Drain, Signal Beam and Gust while Dugtrio gets Sludge Bomb+Wave and Tri Attack, great coverage moves just putting this here), and Dugtrio having a relatively small niche in Final Gambit, which can be barely be run on offensive mons, you're saccing and it has to switch in safely unless you want to risk it even further. I don't really think there's "unhealthiness to explore", its just another threat you have to account for, and guess what, if you're running stall in the first place that's a big threat for you just like an Unaware wall is a threat to offense.
Exactly my point. Its a big threat, and the versatility when using mons such as azelf and excadrill mean they can be called uncompetitive for their versatility themselves. Exca can use blaze kick to beat MB skarm and Levi Doublade. Awesome. Well its unpredictable, lets suspect it. While that seems facetious and inaccurate, it holds truth -- they are both unpredictable in the same way. What this means is that Final Gambit Arena Trap is a glorified lure; although it comes in on stallmons instead of stallmons coming in on it, it serves the same purpose: Lure out a mon's counter and kill it with x move. Arena Trap doesn't even enhance this; if I have iron tail on my azelf that diancie isn't switching out anyways.
I highly disagree with this. Rapid Spin is needed on teams that needs their hazards up on the opponent's side, but not theirs, especially on teams with Pokemon that need Stealth Rock to get specific 2HKOs or on Sticky Web / Spikes teams. And there are very viable Spinners in Inheritance that are difficult to spinblock. For example:
Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Rapid Spin
- Aura Sphere
Inheriting from Blastoise, this Greninja set beats spinblockers with ease thanks to STAB Mega Launcher Dark Pulse. Greninja's speed and ability to force switches also allow it spin pretty much whenever it gets in.
Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure / Analytic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
Slowbro is a more bulky approach on spinning for balanced teams. With reliable recovery, it can stick around throughout the match to spin hazards away while checking physical attackers. It doesn't have many specific anti-spinblocking tools, but its Psyshock will beat Gengar on the switch and other Ghosts must be wary of Scald burns.
Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast / Stone Edge
- Knock Off
Inheriting from Armaldo, this T-tar set provides a mix of bulk and power while giving both Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock support. STAB Knock Off beats any spinblocker not named Mega Sableye (which doesn't seem that good in this metagame anyway) and is both a useful utility move and strong attack.
The Drapion set inherited from Cryogonal from last page was pretty good too.
I never meant to suggest spinners are bad, but that offensive spinners are mediocre in this metagame, especially compared to the defoggers. For example, out of the sets you listed, Greninja lacks power without life orb and cant switch into basically anything; Slowbro is on the passive side (unless analytic) and is status weak if it doesn't run NC, and it also doesn't really deter spinblocking since ghosts hit it super effectively (and specially); and T-Tar is just too slow in this metagame. TBH T-tar I have been finding just too slow to be efficient, it surrenders too much momentum on offensive teams and can leave your teams out-offensed as a HO player. This isn't me saying those mons are BAD, but it is to say that they have substantial flaws, enough so that most teams will prefer a defogger rather than a spinner. The reliability of defog also makes hazards much less common in this metagame, adding on from the fact that many stealth rockers are lacking as well.
first off: who cares if it doesnt have taunt, trick, or whatever else. just because it doesnt have a rainbow of options, doesnt mean its suddenly "terrible", it basically "forces"a pokemon of your opponents choice to lose. all trapinch needs is EQ, Superpower, crunch, and rock slide(dont think it gets stone edge) and you have a wallbreaker that shits on stall. sure say "run shed shell" all you want, but then why not unban shadow tag for the same reason? why dont we give everything access to wonder guard, and just tell people "run phasing+leech seed" yeah. because that suddenly makes it okay.
I never said it was terrible, and I never said run shed shell. The reason arena trap isn't that good is because against stall, it really only can final gambit anyways.
now, for final gambit, do you know how convenient it is to eliminate an offensive players checks? for example, i have landorus therian with gale wings, and on your offensive team, you run idk..diance as a check. i send lando in, and you switch into diance as i u-turn into wailord with final gambit. bam, you lose. horrid example, but it has happened to me many times with my wailord team. and run protect...yeah..."its not OP, running ---- stops it!" protect is a horrible "filler move" to put on offensive teams. also lets not forget running protect on 6 mons is pretty counter intuitive for stall. since you know...they have control over what dies and all...
Eliminate an offensive players checks? Thats called a lure. You have your lan-t with gale wings and you try to check it with diancie, right? Oh wait, its actually packing bullet punch / random ass steel move. Its harder with Lant because levitate Diancie is such a good check, but it really is just a glorified lure since it can't and won't set up. If you run blaze kick on your exca while I switch in my skarmory, then get my skarmory killed so x other mon can sweep, that does the same thing you describe. If you u-turn out on the skarms switch-in and send out your arena trap user, there is a negative difference in 2 ways. The first; You lose a mon. That lure is still alive, and in fact it just slapped something and is still at full health to wreak havoc. In the case of the arena trap user; you kill something in exchange for yourself. Not only that, but it takes an entire teamslot to trapkill that skarmory for x mon, but it takes your excadrill one moveslot. The opportunity cost for using arena trap is HIGHER than just using a lure for what you need, while they both get the same job done.
and lastly, assist isn't broken! just run taunt/flash fire! and it only has access to assist! not banworthy! god. before you counter argue, think about what your saying. assist falls into your categories just as easily. "not many options?" check. "one simple way to stop it" check. "horribly gimmicky" check. yep you sure convinced us to not ban it.
God I hope you are joking. First off; taunt dosen't shut down assist unless its prankster and outspeeds the opposing prankster for one; and flash fire doesn't shut down assist AT ALL. That much has been gone over a multitude of times, and I'm not going to go through it again. Only has access to assist? No, they have access to more than enough moves to crush opposing teams, there was a team I saw several times in the pre-ladder days that absolutely shit on EVERYTHING. Falls into our categories? My categories have nothing to do with that. Assist is so unbelievably efficient that you have to over prepare for it, and I mean OVER-over prepare. One check isn't enough; pinsir + Flash Fire Aegislash isn't enough, hell, I saw assist run through a stall team consisting of FF Doublade, Intimidate suicune, and defensive gyarados. Lcass, before you respond, please bring back experience against GOOD assist battlers. I'm warning you, there are a lot of bad ones, but the good ones plow over almost everybody with ease. The point I'm making is this: It was proven earlier by a user of assist and several others earlier in the thread that assist teams have the ability to plow over all of your supposed checks.
Suicune really isnt A+ material in my opinion. There are no stall mons in A+ other than suicune, and Suicune really isnt as good as chansey or cressila. A more offensive QD suicune is still much easier to take care of than other A+ threats like Pinsir.
Also,
B------B+
Mamoswine is REALLY powerful with refridgerate. It's an amazing wallbreaker, with very strong dual-stabs with return and EQ. WIth how common lando-T is, I feel Mamoswine is a step ahead of its "collegues" in B, such as celibi and mega pidgeot.
Mamoswine has one main problem for me, and its a question that I have to ask myself: Is it outclassed to some extent by weavile; and if so, is that notable enough for it to warrant a significantly lower rank, or do its differences give it a niche seperate enough that we can rate it for what it is?
- Mamoswine is significantly more bulky than weavile, and has a marginally better dual stab combination, but can struggle against offense (despite revenging lant which is huge). Mamo is SLOW, and that is a huge problem. The power drop from mamo to Weavile isn't too noticeable either. Crunch provides great super effective coverage for weavile as well, while earthquake isn't ideal with all the levitaters around. Weavile also DESTROYS unprepared offensive teams. Mamoswine does not do so. it destroys balance, but so does weavile. It does well against stall, but so does Weavile. While certainly not outclassed, I fail to see the factors that would make mamoswine influential enough, and how the checks it has are less than that of Weavile despite the lower speed and therefore higher opportunity cost.
Idk if I feel comfortable moving it beyond B+. I see it moving up to B+ as a possibility, but beyond that seems unfitting from how Weavile is notably better. Ultimately, I may support this nomination, but future ones I really don't know about.
While Suicune is incredibly versatile, none of its roles really stand out as A+ worthy to me. I find Unaware Cressila to be better than Unaware Suicune, and with Poison Heal, it loses reliable water STAB. Quiverpass is its best set in my opinion, and even then I don't find it A+ worthy. Stall can obletarte suicune with taunt/unaware, and offensive teams have priority spam that deals massive damage to suicune. Too much pressure can constantly be applied for its quiverpass set to be A+. I think that A is a better fit for it.
Suicune is WAYY too versatile and checks such a large portion of the metagame that it really can't go anywhere but A+. Adrian and a few others pushed for this and I fully supported it. Suicune is so good because it has the tools to check so much of the physical metagame, and it is a must have on stall teams at this point. If you look at the viability rankings, it serves as a check or counter to 90% of the mons threatening to stall atm, and is also a great blanket check for the myriad of weird sets we all know are possible here in inheritance.
*I apologize for ever suggesting iron tail azelf is even good at all in my anti-ban argument for arena trap. Its not, and don't use it. I used it to illustrate a point.
Maybe we could just sit down for a moment and laugh at people you encounter at low ladder: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223323510
Unlike you, this guy didn't like the fact I just trapped and took out his precious Darmanitan LOL. I guess he votes for banning Arena Trap. Btw look at that lvl 25 Gengar he switches in just before he forfeited.
Though I can't put out a replay and you'll just have to take my word. The guy I battled wasn't joking around, he was had somewhere around 1200-1300 points on the ladder, Final Gambit Blissey. If he had used it better he might've been able to handle my team better
Has anyone tried using pangoro's moveset yet? I am curious about possible movesets that could utilize parting shot as well as something like scrappy with swords dance.
I never said it was terrible, and I never said run shed shell. The reason arena trap isn't that good is because against stall, it really only can final gambit anyways.
that was not pointed at you jownage :P however, dont forget that trapinch gives 4 moves that every fighting, rock, ground, AND dark type can easily fit in their moveset for perfect coverage. it makes a choice banded set more then viable to pick off the nessisary pokemon to opt for anothers sweep. like demolishing diancie and chansey so primal seas greninja can wallbreak with ease. sure one could argue goth...but unlike arena trap, goth/wobb can easily be seen on team preview, meanwhile a arena trap user has the element of suprise on its side.
I never meant to suggest spinners are bad, but that offensive spinners are mediocre in this metagame, especially compared to the defoggers. For example, out of the sets you listed, Greninja lacks power without life orb and cant switch into basically anything; Slowbro is on the passive side (unless analytic) and is status weak if it doesn't run NC, and it also doesn't really deter spinblocking since ghosts hit it super effectively (and specially); and T-Tar is just too slow in this metagame. TBH T-tar I have been finding just too slow to be efficient, it surrenders too much momentum on offensive teams and can leave your teams out-offensed as a HO player. This isn't me saying those mons are BAD, but it is to say that they have substantial flaws, enough so that most teams will prefer a defogger rather than a spinner. The reliability of defog also makes hazards much less common in this metagame, adding on from the fact that many stealth rockers are lacking as well.
Greninja should always have its Life Orb unless it's forced to be an emergency switch-in to a Knock Off or something. It beats every spinblocker imaginable, doesn't lose much momentum when spinning, can switch into predicted resisted hits if it needs to and its Hydro Pump and Mega Launcher Dark Pulse are very strong. Let's take a look at how it fares against top threats:
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 261-308 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Just to show the power. Lando would never switch into Greninja and Hydro Pump does more anyway.)
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 125-147 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO (Showing how much it does to a faster threat that resists it)
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 235-278 (86.7 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (Same for Lando minus the Hydro Pump part)
+2 252 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 221-261 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Glalie: 348-411 (115.6 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Glalie: 261-308 (86.7 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
(Revenge kills +2 Mega Glalie)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 437-515 (135.2 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 317-374 (98.1 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 231-273 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 136-161 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Launcher Greninja Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 178-210 (53.7 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 577-681 (198.2 - 234%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Azelf: 265-313 (91 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 192-227 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 346-408 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 265-312 (59.6 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Aura Sphere vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 208-247 (41.8 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Snorlax: 265-315 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
(Loses to Lax if Lax has SpD investment)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Ice Beam vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 208-247 (67.7 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 438-516 (153.6 - 181%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Gets rekt :/)
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 148-177 (23 - 27.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
(Loses like nearly all special attackers do)
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 259-305 (90.8 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 398-471 (132.2 - 156.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 289-343 (75 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 377-447 (116.7 - 138.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 261-308 (87.2 - 103%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 315-374 (97.8 - 116.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Easily beats the highest-ranked spinblocker)
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 385-458 (95.5 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar: 398-468 (98.7 - 116.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Mega Launcher Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 549-647 (211.9 - 249.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 251-296 (96.9 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Not lacking in power by any means. It always gets the job done for me and is still an activate team member when it doesn't need to spin.
I already explained the Slowbro situation. It at least threatens two of the Ghosts on the viability rankings. Doublade never runs a Ghost move and loses handily to Slowbro, Gengar can't switch in to Psyshock and Aegislash beats it, but does not appreciate a Scald burn on the switch. Slowbro's main perk is that it lasts a long time and can easily spin if an Aegislash (or Gourgiest/Trevenant/Jellicent) isn't on the team.
No comment on T-tar. I haven't used it as a spinner yet.
From my experience, I don't agree with what you're saying about hazards and spinning yet. You've probably played this more than me though, so I'll hold off.
Has anyone tried using pangoro's moveset yet? I am curious about possible movesets that could utilize parting shot as well as something like scrappy with swords dance.
I haven't but I've used Pangoro itself with Bisharp's moveset and ability. It's a nice anti-Defog/Intimidate and very strong.
Pangoro @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Brick Break / Low Kick
- Poison Jab / Iron Head
that was not pointed at you jownage :P however, dont forget that trapinch gives 4 moves that every fighting, rock, ground, AND dark type can easily fit in their moveset for perfect coverage. it makes a choice banded set more then viable to pick off the nessisary pokemon to opt for anothers sweep. like demolishing diancie and chansey so primal seas greninja can wallbreak with ease. sure one could argue goth...but unlike arena trap, goth/wobb can easily be seen on team preview, meanwhile a arena trap user has the element of suprise on its side.
Wigglytuff also seems like a good donor, and allows you to beat Intimidate Suicune with ease. With access to Competitive (basically a SpA boosting Defiant), and a wide special movepool it seems like a good donor for a multitude of Pokemon, especially when you realize it gets BoltBeam, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Grass Knot, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Dazzling Gleam, and Hyper Voice for coverage. Some good Receivers seem like Infernape, Gengar (loses Poison STAB but is one of the fastest/strongest special attackers), Meloetta, and Chandelure, although I'm sure there are others. Might be a cool thing to try out to discourage Defog/Intimidate and grant yourself boosts. Plus, Intimidate lowering your attack one stage so you only end up at +1 after Defiant is ignored here so you don't care that your attack is lowered as you are a special attacker.
the problem is, even with a lure, a lure works once. and if you accidentally reveal the lure, (for example, protean lando with knock off, drain punch, suckerpunch and hp fighting, trying to knock off doublade, only for him to switch out for some reason like a overpredict or having the balls to stay in with greninja and ohko your landorus t) or having a check to the other set (say hes the one person that runs both skarm and doublade) then hes obviously not going to fall for it again, as for arena trap, your forced into the scenario whether you like it or not. sure, he knows diance hard stops landorus, but if that ttar comes in, its GG, so your forced to either not keep it in and get swept...or send it in....and get swept. and this scenario is 10x worse when you have NO idea what the set is. its literally a lure in itself.
tbh, as a primarily offensive player, i actually dislike the concept of trapping. its not very skill based, and generally any player, bad or good, can beat defensive teams all because of an ability that basically stops you from switching or otherwise horrendously restricts teambuilding. i very rarely resort to trapping strats, and when i do, its mostly to be a dick to people, and otherwise id rather lose knowing someones team was better, then winning because i controlled what my opponent could do. and i get people will disagree, i'm just saying that's how i feel about it.
*shrugs* ive stated my opinion on it, so now im just going to drop the subject. no point arguing with people with different opinions because it will never end. so yeah. lmao
It's probably not best to run Synthesis/Leech Seed with a Choice Scarf equipped. I would recommend HP Ground/Fire and Giga Drain, or better yet, change the item to Life Orb to let that set reach its maximum potential.
The reason Life Orb is a bad idea because it suffers from lack of speed and needs some to be used usefully. I was going to argue for Synthesis to help bulk but then I realized Giga Drain can provide that as well. Your suggestions seem to fixed a problem with the set.
Once you reveal the arena trap, the opponent knows you have arena trap, so its a similar deal. Either way, there is no reason to reveal iron tail on your azelf on the switchin to diancie, just wait until diancie stays in.
Can King's Rock+Skill Link be banned? Or King's Rock outright? (+Razor Fang) I just got haxed to death by a guy with a Durant inheriting from Mega Heracross, and a nearly 50% chance of doing nothing while taking fairly hefty damage is dumb.
Once you reveal the arena trap, the opponent knows you have arena trap, so its a similar deal. Either way, there is no reason to reveal iron tail on your azelf on the switchin to diancie, just wait until diancie stays in.
Instead of trying to theory ban Arena Trap, people should try to get replays showing how Arena Trap is bad for the meta or try to build some Arena Trap sets and abuse them. Right now, Arena Trap just doesn't see enough use (at least from my experience) to definitively say that it should be banned.
Sorry for being off-topic, but I was kinda mucking about and found a set that might work.
Blastoise @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Drizzle --> Mega Launcher
Bold Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Origin Pulse
I'm not even sure if a ResTalk set is viable in this extremely offense-based meta, but Mega Launcher-boosted Origin Pulse hits so obscenely hard that I thought it might be worth a try.
In addition, I may try making some sets based around inheriting from Octillery- that thing's movepool is huge. Perhaps something like Keldeo could benefit from Water Spout, Fire Blast, Gunk Shot, etc. Keldeo in particular, I think, can inherit from Mega Blastoise particularly well, getting Water Spout and Mega Launcher-boosted Aura Sphere to its movepool.
Sorry for being off-topic, but I was kinda mucking about and found a set that might work.
Blastoise @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Drizzle --> Mega Launcher
Bold Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Origin Pulse
I'm not even sure if a ResTalk set is viable in this extremely offense-based meta, but Mega Launcher-boosted Origin Pulse hits so obscenely hard that I thought it might be worth a try.
In addition, I may try making some sets based around inheriting from Octillery- that thing's movepool is huge. Perhaps something like Keldeo could benefit from Water Spout, Fire Blast, Gunk Shot, etc. Keldeo in particular, I think, can inherit from Mega Blastoise particularly well, getting Water Spout and Mega Launcher-boosted Aura Sphere to its movepool.
Moving away from Arena Trap for a moment, as our arguments seem to be just going in circles atm with no one actually providing much other than theorymonning, here are a couple sets which have worked really well for me on the ladder.
Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off
- Circle Throw
- Parting Shot
I can't remember where I saw this but it has proved to be a great check to bird spam and V-Create teams, while just being a fantastic pivot in general. With max defense and the SpD boost from Sand Storm in mega form, Tyranitar is able to take hits from either side of the spectrum like a champion. The utility from Knock Off, Circle Throw and Parting shot is fantastic. The slow Parting Shot in particular makes it exceedingly easy to bring in set up sweepers or trappers. Stone Edge is just a great Rock STAB that hits all the Fire and Flying types running around. This obviously is inheriting from Pangoro, I use Scrappy pre-mega just in case I have to phase a ghost or something, extremely situational but I pretty much always just wanna mega evolve asap.
Throh @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab / Fake Out
- U-Turn
This thing inherits from Mienshao. Having the best mixed defenses out of all the fighting types, Throh makes a terrific offensive pivot. With Assault Vest and Regenerator Throh can continually come in and tank hits from special attackers all game. Drain Punch is a great STAB providing Pseudo Recovery, and Knock Off gives great utility. Again, the slow U-turn is amazing for bringing in sweepers safely and scouting the opponent. Poison Jab is my preferred option for hitting fairies but Fake Out is also solid for getting chip damage.
I've actually seen a surprising amount of Throh's running around and having never seen the same set twice. Being the bulkiest fighting type there is, Throh has many options for tanking. This set I'm using has been one of my most valuable pokemon, I've also seen Scrafty and other Intimidate users used, and well other pokemon with reliable forms of recovery. Throh is actually a really strong and versatile inheritor and tbh I'd like to see it ranked. Though I wouldn't put it higher than B- as it is really held back by the birds.
