Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]

Snaquaza

KACAW
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Well, I'll post my thoughts on Arena Trap. I'm currently actually not sure whether I want it banned or not, but I'd love to see a suspect, since it's definitely threatening.

Anyway, to start of. I actually think Final Gambit on high HP Pokemon is the most threatening. It doesn't have as much options as running an actual set, but it's great at removing a certain Pokemon. The problem is obviously the high opportunity cost here, since you basically run one Pokemon which you can't use besides removing one Pokemon. I admit that other Arena Trappers are a threat, with Earthquake, Stone Edge and Sucker Punch, but they are usually flawed in some way. They may be really annoying for some teams, but they've still been fairly mediocre to me, but that's not the point.

As Lcass4919 and others said, the problem is that Blissey (or whatever Pokemon you want, really) can easily destroy any Pokemon you want, as long as it's not a Ghost type / Flying type / Levitate Pokemon. This means that it can remove nearly all Pokemon. It's true that quick Pokemon can stop them. This can be a huge problem for stall and balance, though it's not as good against offensive since they have a lot of priority and very quick Pokemon. And even if they lose a Pokemon, they'll probably have more Pokemon that can at least prepare a sweep. For balance and stall it is more annoying, since they may rely on a certain Pokemon to fulfill a certain role and wall something of the opponent, which is something opposing teams with Blissey can easily take advantage of.

Don't be fooled though. A team should never be swept solely because one Pokemon was removed. Sure, it might be way harder to defend since a critical support Pokemon or wall was removed, but it should not lead to an immediate miss. The opponent will have a way easier time wearing you down probably, and eventually beating you, but it should not be the case that he can switch in a Pokemon and you have no way to beat it. Otherwise you will be beat by any lure, not only by Final Gambit Blissey. (By this, I'm not saying Lures are the same as FG Blissey, but they have the potential to surprise KO something as well. The main difference is that you need to predict and everything for a lure, and just switch in and KO with Blissey.) But if your team is outright swept if a certain Pokemon is KO'd, you'll never win if they either managed to wear that one down, or lured it in and KO'd it. This means you should always have a soft check left. (Something that can't switch in, but can one on one.)

I also want to say that comparing it to Gothitelle is not helping. I don't think Gothitelle is OP, even though it gets tools to break Stall. It's not really strong and is weak to all forms of damage. Stall is not even passive here, and as Adrian Marin has said multiple times. You should not have a passive Stall team here, or it'll just fodder to one of the many strong sets in the metagame. With the insane offensive threats we have, it's a must to have a somewhat threatening team so Offense can't just keep firing strong hits at it. Gothitelle can trick you a Scarf, and while this may cripple a Pokemon, it shouldn't outright make it unusable, since it's still able to use its moves. (Unless it used a status move on Gothitelle which is a bad idea.) This means that the problem must be the Pokemon that inherit Arena Trap, which have, as previously stated, sparse movepools. The best tool Pokemon can use to be actually "uncompetitive" would be Final Gambit, and the others are annoying, but usually able to be handled. I'm not sure whether they're OP, as I've personally not seen Arena Trap destroy things per se, but I can imagine Final Gambit being annoying, while normal Trapping has been kinda mediocre to me. It'd be good if anyone posts some replays that actually proof a point. This does not include Gothitelle tricking a Scarf onto something which had Shed Shell so WAS able to switch out. It'd also be good to see someone using it, and him giving his opinion on the matter. Arena Trap beating you once, isn't as much as an argument as someone who uses it saying it's too easy to beat common Inheritance threats with this ability.

What's needed to convince me is just whether Arena Trap is so good that it can dismantle cores in teams well enough for other Pokemon in the team and that it's not a waste of a moveslot most of the time, or that you'd be better off running something else. For normal Arena Trap sets, you have to convince me how they actually beat common sets, without being dead weight most of the games. I do agree that they don't have to work against all teams, but they shouldn't be near gimmicks. As I've heard many people say Final Gambit was a gimmick and was not worth it. The fact that I don't want to ban too much means that I'll try to be conservative, but if it's really an issue, I won't hesitate to ban it!
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
You realize none of these pokemon are staying on those hits? Do you even know how stall plays?
are you fucking kidding me. do you even realize the main argument. how can one switch into something when all their counters die to arena trap?

Also I'm sorry but your teambuilding argument is flat-out retarded. Offense has cores too and is often based played around the idea you sac a sweeper in order to sweep with the other, meaning that its less damaged by having a single mon removed, unlike stall.

I'll say it again. If you choose to play with a matchup based team archetype like stall you don't get to complain about losing by matchup, that's in addition to the fact that stall actually has ways to teambuild around trappers destroying the team from the team builder.
again, ill ask...are you fucking kidding me? did you even read my post? i never said offence couldn't have synergy, offensive synergy is when they are able to tackle on eachothers counters and checks. and clearly, running gothitelle basically says Fuck synergy, and literally you can just run it on any random team and almost always guarentee victory. i was saying, a good stall team wins because it managed to be able to stop each of the oppoents offensive pokemon. so clearly the other teams offensive synergy is lacking if they are all walled by the same fucking pokemon and you keep making obvious plays. i'm sorry for my harsh tone, but now your just nitpicking the tiny details without even trying to understand my point.
Also, 1 final note:
Are you running Choice Band Arena Trap Terrakion or Choice Scarf Blissey/Wailord on your team? Do you run both? By putting even 1 of these on your team you give up MUCH valued team slot that could easily be used to something else. Also isn't using something obscure like Scarf Blissey in order to beat stall doesn't make it just as "limiting and unhealthy" as you claim Arena Trap to be?
again. im not even going to say it. did i clearly say "run both on the same goddamn team" NO. what point are you even making right now. okay. let me educate you on a "core" and what happens when you break it: you lose serious momentum, basically wailord is a "corebreaker" as if it outspeeds it, and isnt ghost type. it dies. what does choice banded terrakion have to do with a seperate point entirely? and its not like im saying "wailord is pro stall breaker 4/20YOLOROFL" im saying that wailord allthough costs a 1 for 1 situation, can EASILY break a vital core on the opponents team, or take down a massive offensive threat that might be scary to your team. all which...losing a pokemon meant to be lost. losing wailord doesnt affect YOUR momentum in any way, however, its a CRITICAL loss to the opponents, sure, one could run a different poke, and probably could sound better on paper, but a 5/5 battle with their Massive threat to your team insta dead, is 100x better then 6v6 with the opponent walling all 6 of your pokemon.
 
I feel like this turning into a war. If a person makes a very retarded argument, it's best for everyone and for the thread's sake to just ignore him. There's no need to trash talk and prove who's who.

If you've made a convincing argument, it'll be heard. No need to repost it every now and then.

On the current topic, I certainly feel that Arena Trap should be suspected. There's not enough evidence to warrant a ban. But that's exactly why a suspect happens in the first place.

And someone should archive the best sets as some very good ones are being lost amidst the overwhelming posts of random/lacklustre sets.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Shout outs to Adrian, the 1000th post in this thread

If you build a stall team that wins on turn 0 by matchup you don't get to complain when you might lose to trapping by matchup. What could you have done else? 1. Learn from team preview what gothitelle is obviously supposed to do and at least try do double switch accordinally (which you've done, but too late). 2. Actually prepare your team in the teambuilder for this matchup.


Your Lando wasn't even scarfed, had that actually been Breloom Terrakion he would just spore you and 2-3ko. The only thing that replays actually shows is how Mold Breaker can setup on Unaware.



252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 165-196 (40.8 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 174-205 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
The 2 common Unaware walls (aka the threats to offense), good luck killing these. Also take note that this is LO adamant that will lose against any faster offensive mon.


How does lando revenge anything without a scarf or reliable priority is beyond me, better abuse that 89 base HP for the slow Final Gambit though. Also good mention of Choice Scarf Final Gambit Blissey the totally not useless mon against anything other than stall.

Arena Trap isn't broken. If you can't teambuild your precious stall around it you deserve to lose just like you deserve to lose to stall if you can't get around it on offense. Yes, it allows you to revenge kill effectively but you're probably giving your opponent a free turn in the process. Yes, it allows you to succesfully remove a stall mon but being deadweight at the same time against everything else. It's not broken, there isn't any "unhealthiness".
Adrian basically said everything I want to say. It didn't matter, I didn't have a switch in to Terrakion either way lol.

Your argument is really flawed

1. I can't double when I have NO idea what's going to have Arena trap
2. There is NO way around it, once you're trapped you're dead
3. Shed shell isn't an argument, as it would make Arena trap centralising which also would make it bannable
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I feel like this turning into a war. If a person makes a very retarded argument, it's best for everyone and for the thread's sake to just ignore him. There's no need to trash talk and prove who's who.

If you've made a convincing argument, it'll be heard. No need to repost it every now and then.

On the current topic, I certainly feel that Arena Trap should be suspected. There's not enough evidence to warrant a ban. But that's exactly why a suspect happens in the first place.

And someone should archive the best sets as some very good ones are being lost amidst the overwhelming posts of random/lacklustre sets.
i agree, a suspect of that, and possibly something else that im going to talk about in the council chat.
 
Let's stop being abrasive and turning this into "DO YOU EVEN BRO?" ad hominem shit. The point of discussion is arena traps effect on the metagame, not any individual's intelligent/playstyle/playskill. Also Rhayader if you dislike stall that's fine but don't bring a bias in here. Matchups exist and can't really be eliminated, but no game is really won on turn 0.

Now for my argument:
Arena trap is really strong in this meta (potentially too much so) because UNLIKE OTHER TIERS YOU CAN'T PICK OUT THE TRAPPER. In OU etc, you only have goth and wobb and the arena trappers dugtrio and trapinch. In this metagame ANY POKEMON MAY INHERIT ARENA TRAP. The biggest problem is you don't know if they even have a trapper until you get the unfortunate message that says you can't switch.

Also: please don't use the 1 for 1 logical fallacy. Trappers in general basically trade themselves for a specific thing on the opponents team. Only thing stopping your fakespeeder from winning the game is their rhyperior? Consider it gone. Now it doesn't matter that it's 5v5, you have 1 mon that they can no longer stop.

Lastly: This is by no means a call for a ban on my part. I haven't decided whether or not I would support a ban, but I do support a suspect and I do welcome discussion. Just keep it civil, keep it on topic, and keep it logical. No ad hominem, no logical fallacies.

Discuss!
 
This isn't really relevant, but Gothitelle stall actually exists.



Did you just say offense revolves around sacrificing Pokemon to sweep with another? That statement makes absolutely no sense. Offense is all about overpowering the opposition with offensive pressure. Offensive pressure is generated through momentum, pivots, wallbreakers, etc. Sacking a team member is simply a compromise all playstyles rely on. However, I don't see how sacking a Pokemon means having to sweep with another. You can't just simply magically sweep the opposition after sacrificing a team member. Your Pokemon isn't using blood magic or something to get stronger! In short, after sacking a team member, the best course of action is highly circumstantial.



You see, unlike you, we lack the third eye to foresee hidden trappers! If you have a solution, I beg of you to share your divine wisdom.

Hope you recognize my user name because I'm a fan of your work in BH and have been for over a year now. You're a great pleasure to watch in that tier. I know you're skilled in tiers other than BH but thats where I know you best from. Accordingly, the OM room is likely your home. With that said, I'm not sure your willful ignorance is the best way to respond to Rhay although to an extent you both have valid points in my opinion.

Think of the dual dragon cores of the past and "one dragon smashes half the team and dies, the other dagon smashes the rest and wins". Using a sweeper to 'punch holes so another mon can sweep' is one of the oldest tricks in the books. You may prefer "Wallbreaker makes room for sweeper", but offense makes room for offense. That's how HO works. Hope you both can agree on that.

More importantly, this thing about trappers has two good sides to the argument. "The inability to discern which mon is the trapper in inheritance" vs "Trapping itself is not broken nor problematic" As is the tone of this post, I agree to an extent with both sides. The inability to discern the trapper gives the offensive player a lot of leeway and room to manuever in stealth and take an unsuspecting kill the opposition won't even think to double switch out o fbecause they don't know who the trapper is until the work is done. Trapping itself usually requires a choice item usually to have the mon be effective which limits the mon to an extent and grants the opposition a lot of room to work with if the trapper killed.

So where do we meet in the middle? Considering trappers usually revenge, their identity will be given up in a scenario whereby a) the trapper is revealed, and b) the opposition who lost a mon to it is able to set up an advantage.

So, I think it's fine. Would you prefer a notification before turn 1 "Gengar is the trapper" or remove trapping in order to remove a full dimension of the game and remove playstyles from an OM? I say keep trapping because its already been removed from other parts of our game or minimalized simply because we dislike it in our official tiers. It makes inheritence unique and it's not gamebreaking unless you're unprepared or don't know the game very well.

Cheers.
 
Mr155551, the trash talk has hopefully stopped. But the discussion hasn't, and it shouldn't. We have something that deserves a suspect, let's suspect it.
Right. We "suspect" it by playing with the said strategy and posting replays. Or at least use it enough to help people understand. Banning something that 'might' be broken isn't sound.

By the way, the other day, I was amazed by how effective Stall was in the meta. And by stall, I mean "bores you to death" stall. Kl4ng used it against me in a tournament. Literally all his mons had Scald/Recovery + Heal Bell/Hazard/Phazing and of course they were bulky. Unless your team has at least 2 Wall breakers and your Physical wall breaker didn't get burned, it'd too hard to beat this strategy.

Then again, it takes a long time to pull off just one win. So I guess it's best used in friendlies and tourneys. Laddering with it would be hell, I'd imagine.
 

Snaquaza

KACAW
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
guys Dinaisha is right remember what happened to aaa once monte was in charge and how did he close it we don't want to close this thread over stupid arguments that and inheritance is actually really good even though it just became omotm so please stop it.

alternatevly talk about something else like kecleon for example
Now you mention Kecleon. I think I found something which counters (Very shaky, but still) Protean, from both Kecleon and Greninja. Adrian Marin told me that Diancie and Manaphy can counter it, and I've spent a while theorymonning on possible things that could stop it, but they could usually only stop one of the Protean Pokemon. Stuff like Zapdos with Thick Fat can do decently against them, but there are few Pokemon which full out counter, instead of Hard Checking / Soft Checking. But I believe one of these Pokemon is Prankster Porygon2!

Porygon2 can't usually counter because Superpower does a bunch when it has max EV's and a Life Orb.
Code:
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Azelf Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 257-304 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Luckily, with Prankster (from Murkrow), it can Roost off the damage before it hits you again, and Sucker Punch won't work since you used a status attack. You're immune to Shadow Sneak, so Kecleon Azelf can't KO you. Greninja Azelf doesn't get Superpower, so you don't have to worry about that either. After you Roosted, you'll be at minimally 31.2% health, or 43.7% if you account for Stealth Rock. When it hits you again, it'll have -1 Attack, so won't be able to KO you.
Code:
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Azelf Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 172-203 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 40.6% chance to 2HKO
After this, you'll minimally be at 1.1% health, which isn't a lot, but you survive. If this really is your only check, you can just not switch it in until its needed. (If you need it to check other stuff as well and other Mons on your team can't, your team has a problem) To switch in safely you have to be at high health, but it does counter Azelf. In addition to that, it needs extremely high rolls to even get there, plus Stealth Rock and right prediction. Afterwards Superpower will do less than 50%, so you can recover and eventually hit it with Thunder Wave or Foul Play, or use Perish Song to force it out. It's not useless against other things either as it has insane bulk, and Thunder Wave is immensely useful against offensive teams, as is Foul Play. Perish Song is also really annoying to things which try to set up on you. Other options you could use are Haze, Toxic, Whirlwind and Return I guess?

I have to admit I've never used this myself, but it might be useful to stall players!

Edit: I forgot Knock Off nerves its defenses! So I guess you have to play around that! Anyway, even if it uses Knock Off when you switch in, you can Thunder Wave so it gets more handlable at least? Good check at least heh.
 
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Hope you recognize my user name because I'm a fan of your work in BH and have been for over a year now. You're a great pleasure to watch in that tier. I know you're skilled in tiers other than BH but thats where I know you best from. Accordingly, the OM room is likely your home. With that said, I'm not sure your willful ignorance is the best way to respond to Rhay although to an extent you both have valid points in my opinion.
Thanks a lot for the kind words. Your name is also too difficult to forget lol.

Think of the dual dragon cores of the past and "one dragon smashes half the team and dies, the other dagon smashes the rest and wins". Using a sweeper to 'punch holes so another mon can sweep' is one of the oldest tricks in the books. You may prefer "Wallbreaker makes room for sweeper", but offense makes room for offense. That's how HO works. Hope you both can agree on that.


From what I understood, he said that it is the most important aspect of offense. I know that it is extremely important and defining for the playstyle; it's just not the foundation of it like he seems to interpret offense.

I think this post should be highlighted, as it explains both sides without any bias continuing to delude everyone's perception of this dilemma, like a cycle of mindless arguments.
 
I would like to re-iterate: when is Assist going to be banned, or at least suspected? I am currently collecting replays to marshal a real argument for Arena Trap, but I really really really really think Assist is much more obviously busted and needs attention first.
 

Snaquaza

KACAW
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I would like to re-iterate: when is Assist going to be banned, or at least suspected? I am currently collecting replays to marshal a real argument for Arena Trap, but I really really really really think Assist is much more obviously busted and needs attention first.
It's being discussed by the council. We're not going to have an official suspect for it, since I feel it's something that's either a gimmick, or broken. It's not worth discussing whether its broken since it's just viewing whether it's uncompetitive or not. The council should have a decision on it soon, and whether it gets "quickbanned" or not.
 
Not with a fancy and super clever name like AAA ;)
>.>

On a more serious note, I think that Arena Trap really needs to be banned, because there really isn't much opportunity cost in using it, particularly scarf final gambit blissey. While it's primary function is beating stall, it is still capable of outspeeding and OHKO powerful threats, and with Blissey's bulk it can even take priority hits and still net the ohko. Only two types can actually escape it: Ghost (But what threats are Ghosts....) and Flying. Shed shell isn't very reliable considering knock off is one of the best moves in the meta.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
The difference is that most lures exist to beat one pokemon while arena trap can beat any pokemon that can't kill you first.
But as a teambuilder, you know what your excadrill needs to get rid of in order to beat the opponent's stall team. Therefore you set your single lure to that single mon you need eliminated. If Exca had 5 counters but stall usually only ran 1, thats one thing, but exca has many specific counters that are all beaten with the right coverage move.
Instead of trying to theory ban Arena Trap, people should try to get replays showing how Arena Trap is bad for the meta or try to build some Arena Trap sets and abuse them. Right now, Arena Trap just doesn't see enough use (at least from my experience) to definitively say that it should be banned.
There is a reason for this, and its that the opportunity cost for using arena trap, especially on a mon like blissey, is very high for any team. It costs an entire teamslot, and you have to beat offense with basically 5 mons.
Moving away from Arena Trap for a moment, as our arguments seem to be just going in circles atm with no one actually providing much other than theorymonning, here are a couple sets which have worked really well for me on the ladder.

Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off
- Circle Throw
- Parting Shot

I can't remember where I saw this but it has proved to be a great check to bird spam and V-Create teams, while just being a fantastic pivot in general. With max defense and the SpD boost from Sand Storm in mega form, Tyranitar is able to take hits from either side of the spectrum like a champion. The utility from Knock Off, Circle Throw and Parting shot is fantastic. The slow Parting Shot in particular makes it exceedingly easy to bring in set up sweepers or trappers. Stone Edge is just a great Rock STAB that hits all the Fire and Flying types running around. This obviously is inheriting from Pangoro, I use Scrappy pre-mega just in case I have to phase a ghost or something, extremely situational but I pretty much always just wanna mega evolve asap.


Throh @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab / Fake Out
- U-Turn

This thing inherits from Mienshao. Having the best mixed defenses out of all the fighting types, Throh makes a terrific offensive pivot. With Assault Vest and Regenerator Throh can continually come in and tank hits from special attackers all game. Drain Punch is a great STAB providing Pseudo Recovery, and Knock Off gives great utility. Again, the slow U-turn is amazing for bringing in sweepers safely and scouting the opponent. Poison Jab is my preferred option for hitting fairies but Fake Out is also solid for getting chip damage.

I've actually seen a surprising amount of Throh's running around and having never seen the same set twice. Being the bulkiest fighting type there is, Throh has many options for tanking. This set I'm using has been one of my most valuable pokemon, I've also seen Scrafty and other Intimidate users used, and well other pokemon with reliable forms of recovery. Throh is actually a really strong and versatile inheritor and tbh I'd like to see it ranked. Though I wouldn't put it higher than B- as it is really held back by the birds.
That T-Tar is one of the best users of parting shot around. Scrappy Circle Throw is cool and all, but I think Mold Breaker could come in handy for breaking multiscales, sturdy, etc. It looks like a great set, however.

Throh is still in C atm, and at first I didn't want to move it up, however I am going to gather some sets and place it at B-. One of its best sets is the PH set, which is actually quite disgusting because it just DOESN'T DIE. Spreads spores, leech seeds, drain punches shit, its just amazing everything that it does. I am tempted to put it above B-, but I will hold off for reasons you stated.
Yeah no more Arena Trap argument.

Another thing that I find it good is Protean Marowak. Kecleon gives it almost all kinds of priority, so it performs kinda good at revenge killing despite being slow. Though maybe people could argue Adaptability Ursaring is better.
I have been using adaptability ursaring on my newest team and its really, REALLY good. It literally 6-0s offense without an -ate mega. The problem is that is most of them, so I think I might use something else. If only melo-p was usable...Tauros and staraptor are options, but nothing packs the raw power of ursaring.

Here's a set I think deserves recognition:



->

Ampharos @ Ampharosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Filler

Ampharos inherits from Latias/Latios, allowing it to avoid ground-type moves and great coverage. I typically use Ampharos as a lead, using its wonderful new ability.

This set should be self-explanatory, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt provide excellent coverage, and Draco Meteor hits hard when you decide to Mega-Evolve. Ampharos fares well against Flying-types, notably, Landorus-T and Pinsir-Mega. Ice Beam does a solid OHKO on Landorus-T while Thunderbolt does the same to Mega Pinsir (Note: this is before Mega Evolution). Taking out those two Pokemon mainly rests on the surprise factor of Levitate, however, Ampharos is also able to tank the standard attacks run on Lando-T and Mega Pinsir.
As for the Filler move, Toxic/Psyshock will suffice in the event that the opponent switches to a tank (eg. Chansey), but I will leave it for the player to decide.

Here are some Damage Calcs:
Defensive (to prove you can stay in):
252+ Atk Landorus-T Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 178-210 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 178-210 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 187-221 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

Offensive:
252+ SpA Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 324-384 (119.5 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (for reference)
Since your using a bulky attacking set, and the damage calcs are actually decent, why not use roost in the 4th slot? It has great bulk, but its main problem is it gets worn down easily; this is its problem in standards as well. Roost gives you reliable recovery it desperately wants, and if you find time to get off a roost you can check lando-t multiple times, which is a godsend to offensive teams.
That's the problem, it's already over once you determine the set.


No, I do not thing they are unpredictable in the same way. Trapping cannot be compared to luring. Luring can easily be played around with through predicting and offensive presence, while trapping can't. Without knowledge of the opponent's Arena Trap Pokemon, there is NO WAY to play around Arena Trap.


I don't know if you were literal in this case or not, but this is not true. Arena Trap Pokemon have other solid ways of defeating walls.

Arena Trap often simply handpicks what it wants to kill, while a lure usually only beats one or two threats with its coverage move(s). I wouldn't compare trapping to luring or even say Arena Trap is a downgrade at all.

Additionally, I do not think we need data of its unhealthiness to even suspect Arena Trap. History has taught us that trapping will always be unhealthy in some way. The fact that Arena Trap users are versatile and concealed is what really bothers me.
Most of this meta is concealed for one, but they really aren't very versatile. They can take on many formes, but they don't do that much. That lure azelf is killing your diancie 10/10, just like that arena trap lando-t is killing your diancie 10/10. Not only this, but now my protean azelf can do tons of work against your team with its counter gone. Thats using one moveslot. You say that arena trap can just handpick what it wants to kill, and it sure can, but so do lures. When I go into the teambuilder and am building to beat stall teams quickly and efficiently, I am thinking: What does x mon need eliminated off of stall teams and how do I lure that mon? If I lure in and kill that mon, I win, regardless of the trapping or not. Why? Because I know what my mons need eliminated, and in inheritance, YOU DON'T.

"Its already over once you determine the set."
Once my azelf uses iron tail on your diancie, after a strategic switch-out the first time diancie comes in, its already over. I fail to see how this is radically different from slow u-turning into your arena trap mon.
In Inheritance, there is no way to play around your opponents lures without knowledge of their movesets, and all it takes is a couple of strategic plays to render many counters useless against the onslaught.
Arena trap pokemon have other ways of defeating walls? Unless its banded lan-t, they really don't. I mean sure, they could toxic you, but how are they going to heal damage your doing? Your stall teams certainly aren't passive.

Really, I see very little difference in Arena Trap and Shadow Tag, except levitating and Flying type Pokemon can't be trapped. I see no reason for Arena Trap to stay while Shadow Tag is banned.
You can't trick a scarf onto a wall and calm mind your way to +6 with arena trap. You can do that with shadow tag. Shadow tag has a pretty large movepool when compared to that of arena trap.
Well, I'll post my thoughts on Arena Trap. I'm currently actually not sure whether I want it banned or not, but I'd love to see a suspect, since it's definitely threatening.

Anyway, to start of. I actually think Final Gambit on high HP Pokemon is the most threatening. It doesn't have as much options as running an actual set, but it's great at removing a certain Pokemon. The problem is obviously the high opportunity cost here, since you basically run one Pokemon which you can't use besides removing one Pokemon. I admit that other Arena Trappers are a threat, with Earthquake, Stone Edge and Sucker Punch, but they are usually flawed in some way. They may be really annoying for some teams, but they've still been fairly mediocre to me, but that's not the point.

As Lcass4919 and others said, the problem is that Blissey (or whatever Pokemon you want, really) can easily destroy any Pokemon you want, as long as it's not a Ghost type / Flying type / Levitate Pokemon. This means that it can remove nearly all Pokemon. It's true that quick Pokemon can stop them. This can be a huge problem for stall and balance, though it's not as good against offensive since they have a lot of priority and very quick Pokemon. And even if they lose a Pokemon, they'll probably have more Pokemon that can at least prepare a sweep. For balance and stall it is more annoying, since they may rely on a certain Pokemon to fulfill a certain role and wall something of the opponent, which is something opposing teams with Blissey can easily take advantage of.

Don't be fooled though. A team should never be swept solely because one Pokemon was removed. Sure, it might be way harder to defend since a critical support Pokemon or wall was removed, but it should not lead to an immediate miss. The opponent will have a way easier time wearing you down probably, and eventually beating you, but it should not be the case that he can switch in a Pokemon and you have no way to beat it. Otherwise you will be beat by any lure, not only by Final Gambit Blissey. (By this, I'm not saying Lures are the same as FG Blissey, but they have the potential to surprise KO something as well. The main difference is that you need to predict and everything for a lure, and just switch in and KO with Blissey.) But if your team is outright swept if a certain Pokemon is KO'd, you'll never win if they either managed to wear that one down, or lured it in and KO'd it. This means you should always have a soft check left. (Something that can't switch in, but can one on one.)

I also want to say that comparing it to Gothitelle is not helping. I don't think Gothitelle is OP, even though it gets tools to break Stall. It's not really strong and is weak to all forms of damage. Stall is not even passive here, and as Adrian Marin has said multiple times. You should not have a passive Stall team here, or it'll just fodder to one of the many strong sets in the metagame. With the insane offensive threats we have, it's a must to have a somewhat threatening team so Offense can't just keep firing strong hits at it. Gothitelle can trick you a Scarf, and while this may cripple a Pokemon, it shouldn't outright make it unusable, since it's still able to use its moves. (Unless it used a status move on Gothitelle which is a bad idea.) This means that the problem must be the Pokemon that inherit Arena Trap, which have, as previously stated, sparse movepools. The best tool Pokemon can use to be actually "uncompetitive" would be Final Gambit, and the others are annoying, but usually able to be handled. I'm not sure whether they're OP, as I've personally not seen Arena Trap destroy things per se, but I can imagine Final Gambit being annoying, while normal Trapping has been kinda mediocre to me. It'd be good if anyone posts some replays that actually proof a point. This does not include Gothitelle tricking a Scarf onto something which had Shed Shell so WAS able to switch out. It'd also be good to see someone using it, and him giving his opinion on the matter. Arena Trap beating you once, isn't as much as an argument as someone who uses it saying it's too easy to beat common Inheritance threats with this ability.

What's needed to convince me is just whether Arena Trap is so good that it can dismantle cores in teams well enough for other Pokemon in the team and that it's not a waste of a moveslot most of the time, or that you'd be better off running something else. For normal Arena Trap sets, you have to convince me how they actually beat common sets, without being dead weight most of the games. I do agree that they don't have to work against all teams, but they shouldn't be near gimmicks. As I've heard many people say Final Gambit was a gimmick and was not worth it. The fact that I don't want to ban too much means that I'll try to be conservative, but if it's really an issue, I won't hesitate to ban it!
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. If we gave lando-t arena trap and dugtrio's movepool (-Final Gambit), and made it so only 5% of variants are arena trap, what would we have? Well, It probably wouldn't be broken with that shitty movepool. It doesn't outclass gothitelle in that set tbh, since goth can trick a scarf and calm mind / do heavy damage / etc. Sure, it hits pretty hard, but if those kills alone obliterate your stall team, you probably aren't building well based on previous evidence; no other metagames with limitations on trapping abilities has this problem - just look at OU.
>.>

On a more serious note, I think that Arena Trap really needs to be banned, because there really isn't much opportunity cost in using it, particularly scarf final gambit blissey. While it's primary function is beating stall, it is still capable of outspeeding and OHKO powerful threats, and with Blissey's bulk it can even take priority hits and still net the ohko. Only two types can actually escape it: Ghost (But what threats are Ghosts....) and Flying. Shed shell isn't very reliable considering knock off is one of the best moves in the meta.
Not that much opportunity cost. No thanks. It takes up an entire teamslot to threaten to kamikaze a stallmon. Scarf Blissey isn't even close; offense that loses to it isn't strong enough tbh. Trust me, I would know. I've played offense since the beginning and logged hundreds of battles.
I used arena trap back in the very beginning when stall teams first started showing up, but I felt that too often I was playing 5v6. It was just not good enough at times.


Going to be blunt here: Nobody respond to this post. Yall can ban arena trap or not, but I don't really care anymore. I don't want to use arena trap, its too gimmicky for me and the opportunity cost is too high for offense to be used effectively; offense is hard to build. I'll take my lures any day over any arena trap abuser for breaking stall, its a lot easier to threorymon how to decimate stall teams with moveslots than dedicate 2 teamslots to it. I prefer lures so do whatever you want, I really don't care.
 
Not that much opportunity cost. No thanks. It takes up an entire teamslot to threaten to kamikaze a stallmon. Scarf Blissey isn't even close; offense that loses to it isn't strong enough tbh. Trust me, I would know. I've played offense since the beginning and logged hundreds of battles.
I used arena trap back in the very beginning when stall teams first started showing up, but I felt that too often I was playing 5v6. It was just not good enough at times.
Agree with this. I was a heavy Arena Trap user when people didn't complain for it, but stopped using it because it can't break most walls other than using Scarf Blissey, which costs an entire member. Instead of using things like Scarf Blissey, why not just use Gothitelle. Its far more reliable at breaking Stall teams and you don't have to lose a member for it.

I don't care if the council will ban Arena Trap or not. But for others who need Arena Trap to break Stall, remember that there is Gothitelle which is far more superior at breaking Stall than using Final Gambit gimmicks like that. I suggest using it over Arena Trap.
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways

The second mon for the CLC core is COMPLETELY unexplored, and many of its sets have powerful merits over their typical counterparts. Its great mixed attacking stats of 135/110/100 and good offensive typing (in flying) allow it to run a multitude of sets to great effect. Let me go down a list of viable sets I will be using.

Salamence @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Aerilate
Evs: 252 Atk / 4 Spa / 252 Spe
Naive / Hasty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Return
- Earthquake
- Defog / Fire Blast / Hydro Pump

One of the few viable HO style defoggers looks you in the face. This salamence has amazing utility for HO against balanced teams. It hits extremely hard on both sides of the spectrum while maintaining the ability to defog away rocks if you want it to. Its a great wallbreaker against balanced however, because its sheer power is tremendous. Running hydro pump in the last slot is great if you don't want/need defog, since hydro pump hits a very common switchin: Rhypherior. Return boosted by aerilate hits tremendously hard, and draco meteor is the few-resisted nuke we all love. The cons of it being as a defogger is that it is often suicidal against other offensive teams; it surrenders momentum and often has to die to do its job. The good news is that it usually kills something in the process. While 100 speed is a hindrance, as well as its lack of bulk, it has the ability to come in on several threats and get its job done. Overall something I am looking forward to testing in the near future.

Salamence @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
Evs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Will-o-wisp
- Flare Blitz / Tailwind / Roost

So I'm sure you are asking yourself: Isn't this set outclassed by landorus-t? Well there are two reasons this is not true. The first reason: Its almost as powerful, and it isn't lant, so therefore it can be used alongside for dual gale wings power. There are two other reasons its good, however. The first is the surprise factor -- many people do not expect salamence to gale wings brave bird them in the face, and that is very important for inheritance; those free kills are amazing. The second reason is the fact that it OUTSPEEDS LAN-T. By running 184 speed evs, I outspeed all non-jolly landorus variants, which allows me to kill them reliably. This is amazing for a mon like this.

If you are running dual gale wings, choice scarf is actually a viable option; revenge killers that trouble offense like weavile and azelf don't enjoy that scarf forcing brave birds down their throats. Those mons are huge to eliminate, and the surprise factor can net more than a few kills.


Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Evs and Moves: Pick your poison.

This set is fun because of how great its base 135 attack stat is. Its very good on both ends of the spectrum, and although its slow, it has the ability to surprise a lot of mons. It has a lot of power, and plays like any other protean set, which is great, especially since very few people see it coming. Protean is self explanitory.


So, here are a few example sets. What can you guys come up with?
 
Not that much opportunity cost. No thanks. It takes up an entire teamslot to threaten to kamikaze a stallmon. Scarf Blissey isn't even close; offense that loses to it isn't strong enough tbh. Trust me, I would know. I've played offense since the beginning and logged hundreds of battles.
I used arena trap back in the very beginning when stall teams first started showing up, but I felt that too often I was playing 5v6. It was just not good enough at times.
something you forgot to mention is that there isn't a single pokemon that would rather use arena trap than something else and the closest thing to that is garchomp who would still rather run itself or multiscale.
 
Still gathering replays and working on making my demonstration team as stupid as possible, but I would like to respond to the (bizarre) assumption that Arena Trap is specifically about stallbreaking.

It isn't. While Scarf Final Gambit Arena Trap Blissey is an excellent way to explode Poison Heal Suicune or whatever, Arena Trap can force anything that isn't Flying, Levitating, or a Ghost type to stay in on something it doesn't want to stay in on and die, regardless of whether it's stall or offense. While that might seems like a fairly generous range of options, it really isn't -a Pursuit/Sucker Punch Dark type can pseudo-trap/force a kill on many offensive Ghost types that laugh at true trapping, while Flying types can be handled with the right team support. (I've got a Magnet Puller specifically for Skarmory, which is one of the more problematic Flying types. As a bonus, many Levitators are Steel types!) This leaves Levitate, and even aside from a Mold Breaker teammate as a catch-all answer a team is just not going to run six Levitators or something ridiculous like that.

Not only that, but multiple Arena Trappers can be complimentary to each other. The enemy double switches on a non-trapper, and you switch in the wrong trapper, and that's fine -you just switch over to whichever trapper is better suited to dealing with what just switched in, and they can't switch out.

In my own play thus far -using a dumb gimmick team, keep in mind- I've found the main weakness of Arena Trap inheriting is a lack of recovery from the donors.

This can be compensated for with Wish support if you really care. Not only that, but Final Gambit off of Chansey is ridiculously lethal even at very low health -at less than 50% health I've seen it remove 80% off a bulky base 100 HP Pokemon. This minimizes the risk involved in using Chansey or Blissey as a Final Gambit trapper nuke -even offensive pressure is not a for-sure protection against losing a Pokemon outright, and in fact they can use Final Gambit after they've set Stealth Rock or something else useful and still net a KO, simply by switching in on a Special attacker, which is of course trapped.
 
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By the way, what potential does Weavile inheriting Pangoro have as a stall breaker? Mold Breaker taunt with insane speed, parting shot for momentum, and still gets knock off, which also is problematic for stall...

EDIT: It also gets Ice Punch ^^
 
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By the way, what potential does Weavile inheriting Pangoro have as a stall breaker? Mold Breaker taunt with insane speed, parting shot for momentum, and still gets knock off, which also is problematic for stall...

EDIT: It also gets Ice Punch ^^
Weavile lacks the firepower to threaten stall without Refrigerate and is easily killed even by defensively oriented Pokemon. Mold Breaker Taunt can be useful for breaking stall, but not on something as frail as Weavile.
 
By the way, what potential does Weavile inheriting Pangoro have as a stall breaker? Mold Breaker taunt with insane speed, parting shot for momentum, and still gets knock off, which also is problematic for stall...

EDIT: It also gets Ice Punch ^^
You use Knock Off. They lose their lefties, but you get burned instead. As mentioned, Weavile is just too frail.

I'm not sure if Barbaracle gets Ice Punch, but it gets Shell Smash and Contact Knock Off. If you really want to use Weavile, better use that. Or you can just run Band Contact Knock Off to punish stall.
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
Weavile lacks the firepower to threaten stall without Refrigerate and is easily killed even by defensively oriented Pokemon. Mold Breaker Taunt can be useful for breaking stall, but not on something as frail as Weavile.
Mold Breaker Garchomp inheriting from Haxorus has been working out for me when it's time to stall break. Mold Breaker is a pretty good ability to inherit that ignores Unaware, Levitate, Magic Bounce, etc..
 
Ok, here is an Arena Trap set I've been using which shows why Arena Trap may be unhealthy for Inheritance.

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Struggle Bug
- Rest
- Toxic
- Mud-Slap

The idea here is simple. Come in on a special attacker or stall Pokemon which can't do much to Chansey, bombard it with Struggle Bug and Mud Slap until it is hitting you 33% of the time with an extremely weak attack, and either Toxic stall or PP stall it to death using Rest to recover when needed. I hope spending possibly 50 turns helplessly trapped by Chansey sounds like fun to you. Unlike Final Gambit Blissey, this thing isn't suicidal and can possibly claim multiple targets. The point I'm trying to get at is that even though Dugtrio and Trapinch have shitty movepools, you can still get creative and make sets which abuse Arena Trap besides Final Gambit and Landorus-T.

Here are some replays (they are not the greatest, but they give you a glimpse of what Arena Trap Chansey can do).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223502288
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223594628 (not sure why this person was using Transform Shuckle, but even a Chansey would have died here)

Edit: And someone needs to fix that Diance glitch. It never died, but Roar failed on Chestnaught. I just noticed that.

You could also try the set with a physical wall with Charm from Dugtrio, so take a close look at the movepools of Trapinch and Dugtrio and you may be able to find other sets which take advantage of Arena Trap.
 
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