Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Yeah no more Arena Trap argument.

Another thing that I find it good is Protean Marowak. Kecleon gives it almost all kinds of priority, so it performs kinda good at revenge killing despite being slow. Though maybe people could argue Adaptability Ursaring is better.

 

[Throbulator36]

Yeah no more Arena Trap argument.

Another thing that I find it good is Protean Marowak. Kecleon gives it almost all kinds of priority, so it performs kinda good at revenge killing despite being slow. Though maybe people could argue Adaptability Ursaring is better.

Actually rampardos is completely better than it hitting harder with a life orb than maro does with a thick club.

 

[ChucklePackage]

Here's a set I think deserves recognition:

->

Ampharos @ Ampharosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Filler

Ampharos inherits from Latias/Latios, allowing it to avoid ground-type moves and great coverage. I typically use Ampharos as a lead, using its wonderful new ability.

This set should be self-explanatory, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt provide excellent coverage, and Draco Meteor hits hard when you decide to Mega-Evolve. Ampharos fares well against Flying-types, notably, Landorus-T and Pinsir-Mega. Ice Beam does a solid OHKO on Landorus-T while Thunderbolt does the same to Mega Pinsir (Note: this is before Mega Evolution). Taking out those two Pokemon mainly rests on the surprise factor of Levitate, however, Ampharos is also able to tank the standard attacks run on Lando-T and Mega Pinsir.
As for the Filler move, Toxic/Psyshock will suffice in the event that the opponent switches to a tank (eg. Chansey), but I will leave it for the player to decide.

Here are some Damage Calcs:
Defensive (to prove you can stay in):
252+ Atk Landorus-T Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 178-210 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 178-210 (46.4 - 54.8%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ampharos: 187-221 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

Offensive:
252+ SpA Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 324-384 (119.5 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (for reference)

 

[Dratios]

Wow. Somehow, I happened not to see that Keldeo was banned in the OP. phoenixlegend, thank you for correcting me.

In addition, here's a possible Mega Pidgeot set, inherited from Regice:

Pidgeot @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Clear Body --> No Guard
Naive Nature
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Zap Cannon
- Focus Blast
- Dynamic Punch
- Blizzard

This set aims to take the most advantage of No Guard possible, with BoltBeam coverage in Zap Cannon and Blizzard, and Focus Blast serves as secondary coverage. Dynamic Punch is nice for the 100% confuse chance, but note that you can run Psycho Boost from Deoxys for a powerful coverage move or Volt Switch from Ampharos to get out of a tough situation.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Actually rampardos is completely better than it hitting harder with a life orb than maro does with a thick club.

252+ Atk Life Orb Rampardos Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 121-144 (37.9 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 112-133 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not that much different. I'd choose Marowak because its bulkier (doesn't really matter though) and it doesn't have Life Orb recoil, which kinda hinders it.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Instead of trying to theory ban Arena Trap, people should try to get replays showing how Arena Trap is bad for the meta or try to build some Arena Trap sets and abuse them. Right now, Arena Trap just doesn't see enough use (at least from my experience) to definitively say that it should be banned.

Dugtrio (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Memento

dugtrio (Blissey) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Final Gambit
- Memento
- Toxic
- Rest

Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Atk / 188 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Hone Claws
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch

Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Memento
- Substitute

Pinsir @ Pinsirite (Can use Altaria and Glalie for this as well)
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Quick Attack
- Earthquake
- Return
- Substitute

I put 10 minutes into this, it's not that hard to pick something out.

 

[Isa Simple]

Dugtrio (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Memento

dugtrio (Blissey) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Final Gambit
- Memento
- Toxic
- Rest

Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Atk / 188 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Hone Claws
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch

Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Memento
- Substitute

Pinsir @ Pinsirite (Can use Altaria and Glalie for this as well)
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Quick Attack
- Earthquake
- Return
- Substitute

I put 10 minutes into this, it's not that hard to pick something out.

However a few of those sets do look really scary, what everyone is saying is that you need to provide replays of Arena Trap in action to show case how broken and defining it is.
Also however they do look really strong, I think the main issue people are having is with Final Gambit + Arena Trap, in which case could it perhaps be a better option to just ban inheriting from Dugtrio? Or the combination of Arena Trap and Final Gambit. Because Trapinch or Dugtrio without final gambit still seem like really strong pokemon but not broken or guaranteed to kill a pokemon.

Also I noticed that standard Gyarados isn't on the viability rankings. I haven't used it my self but I thought that Gyarados inheriting from something like Mega Salamence would be a pretty darn scary threat.

Gyarados @ Life Orb
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Aqua Tail
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake / Roost

 

[Adrian Marin]

But thats the problem. You say that Gothitelle rose to OU, but it is now NOT centralizing enough to warrant a ban. Meanwhile, Arena trap has a very small movepool and it is even more predictable once you determine the set, and its even worse.

That's the problem, it's already over once you determine the set.

Therefore, the only factor we have to justify a ban is the unpredictability of when it could happen. Thats it. The capability of it to dispatch walls can be comparable to running iron tail on your azelf*; except that Iron tail on Azelf costs one moveslot; arena trap costs a teamslot. This is inheritance. There are all kinds of mons we can ban if we can call them "too hard to predict viably." This is the one thing that makes inheritance stall balanced and not overly powerful, and is also keeping the metagame balanced right now. The current metagame's unpredictability troubles all teams, and makes it that much more difficult to be truly successful.

Exactly my point. Its a big threat, and the versatility when using mons such as azelf and excadrill mean they can be called uncompetitive for their versatility themselves. Exca can use blaze kick to beat MB skarm and Levi Doublade. Awesome. Well its unpredictable, lets suspect it. While that seems facetious and inaccurate, it holds truth -- they are both unpredictable in the same way. What this means is that Final Gambit Arena Trap is a glorified lure; although it comes in on stallmons instead of stallmons coming in on it, it serves the same purpose: Lure out a mon's counter and kill it with x move. Arena Trap doesn't even enhance this; if I have iron tail on my azelf that diancie isn't switching out anyways.

No, I do not thing they are unpredictable in the same way. Trapping cannot be compared to luring. Luring can easily be played around with through predicting and offensive presence, while trapping can't. Without knowledge of the opponent's Arena Trap Pokemon, there is NO WAY to play around Arena Trap.

I never said it was terrible, and I never said run shed shell. The reason arena trap isn't that good is because against stall, it really only can final gambit anyways.

I don't know if you were literal in this case or not, but this is not true. Arena Trap Pokemon have other solid ways of defeating walls.

Eliminate an offensive players checks? Thats called a lure. You have your lan-t with gale wings and you try to check it with diancie, right? Oh wait, its actually packing bullet punch / random ass steel move. Its harder with Lant because levitate Diancie is such a good check, but it really is just a glorified lure since it can't and won't set up. If you run blaze kick on your exca while I switch in my skarmory, then get my skarmory killed so x other mon can sweep, that does the same thing you describe. If you u-turn out on the skarms switch-in and send out your arena trap user, there is a negative difference in 2 ways. The first; You lose a mon. That lure is still alive, and in fact it just slapped something and is still at full health to wreak havoc. In the case of the arena trap user; you kill something in exchange for yourself. Not only that, but it takes an entire teamslot to trapkill that skarmory for x mon, but it takes your excadrill one moveslot. The opportunity cost for using arena trap is HIGHER than just using a lure for what you need, while they both get the same job done.

Arena Trap often simply handpicks what it wants to kill, while a lure usually only beats one or two threats with its coverage move(s). I wouldn't compare trapping to luring or even say Arena Trap is a downgrade at all.


Additionally, I do not think we need data of its unhealthiness to even suspect Arena Trap. History has taught us that trapping will always be unhealthy in some way. The fact that Arena Trap users are versatile and concealed is what really bothers me.

 

[Mr155551]

So i'm seeing a lot of people recommending kecleon to inhert and i want to understand why is it because of protean and massive movepool

 

[skies]

So i'm seeing a lot of people recommending kecleon to inhert and i want to understand why is it because of protean and massive movepool

Yes. Kecleon is like the "physical" Protean while Greninja is like the "special" Protean.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Both can be Physical or Special. Kecleon got Boltbeam, Fire Blast, Grass Knot and Shadow Ball for Special moves, while Greninja got Water Shuriken, Gunk Shot, Low Kick and U-turn as Physical moves.

 

[Froggyboy]

Kecleon can also work as a special Protean Pokemon. It gets Nasty Plot, Thunderbolt, Fire Blast/Flamethrower, while Greninja gets Hydro Pump/Scald, Dark Pulse(though it acts basically like Shadow Ball, except with more resists and the ability to hit Normal types), and Toxic Spikes.
Overall, unless your team needs Water coverage and Toxic Spikes in your Protean mon, I would prefer to inherit from Kecleon.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

That's the problem, it's already over once you determine the set.





No, I do not thing they are unpredictable in the same way. Trapping cannot be compared to luring. Luring can easily be played around with through predicting and offensive presence, while trapping can't. Without knowledge of the opponent's Arena Trap Pokemon, there is NO WAY to play around Arena Trap.




I don't know if you were literal in this case or not, but this is not true. Arena Trap Pokemon have other solid ways of defeating walls.



Arena Trap often simply handpicks what it wants to kill, while a lure usually only beats one or two threats with its coverage move(s). I wouldn't compare trapping to luring or even say Arena Trap is a downgrade at all.


Additionally, I do not think we need data of its unhealthiness to even suspect Arena Trap. History has taught us that trapping will always be unhealthy in some way. The fact that Arena Trap users are versatile and concealed is what really bothers me.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223398760

Hey, can someone help me out how I could've predicted better in this match? It's obviously just what I have to do, right?

 

[Froggyboy]

Really, I see very little difference in Arena Trap and Shadow Tag, except levitating and Flying type Pokemon can't be trapped. I see no reason for Arena Trap to stay while Shadow Tag is banned.

 

[MAMP]

Really, I see very little difference in Arena Trap and Shadow Tag, except levitating and Flying type Pokemon can't be trapped. I see no reason for Arena Trap to stay while Shadow Tag is banned.

The difference is that all the Pokemon that can get Arena Trap have fairly limited movepools, limiting the range of Pokemon that can be taken out by Arena Trap. On the other hand, Pokemon inheriting Shadow Tag from Gothitelle or Mega Gengar have access to incredible offensive and supporting movepools, making them much more versatile and much more efficient trappers.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

The difference is that all the Pokemon that can get Arena Trap have fairly limited movepools, limiting the range of Pokemon that can be taken out by Arena Trap. On the other hand, Pokemon inheriting Shadow Tag from Gothitelle or Mega Gengar have access to incredible offensive and supporting movepools, making them much more versatile and much more efficient trappers.

They have fairly limited move pools, but they don't have bad move pools. Landorus T can use Sucker punch, Equake, SEdge and Stealth rock/Memento (Final Gambit) while Blissey can use Final gambit. Landorus-t is a threat to offense while Blissey is a threat to stall. I posted multiple sets and I'm trying to make a good offensive team w/ arena trap

Here's one

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223433655
I removed his Terrakion early on so I wouldn't be hit by priority, almost got swept by the Landorus-T

 

[Isa Simple]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223398760

Hey, can someone help me out how I could've predicted better in this match? It's obviously just what I have to do, right?

Wow, one of the best Stall Breakers in the game gave your stall team trouble. How does this have any relevancy to Arena Trap? Gothitelle's access to gems such as Taunt, Trick, Heal Block, Calm Mind, and a large special move pool are what make it great.
Dugtrio's niche is Final Gambit. Other than that it is fairly restricted mainly towards ground type physical attackers.

The other replay above hardly makes Arena Trap ban worthy, as it couldn't even stop a Lead From setting up rocks, and there is no certainty at all that the Terrakion had priority.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Wow, one of the best Stall Breakers in the game gave your stall team trouble. How does this have any relevancy to Arena Trap? Gothitelle's access to gems such as Taunt, Trick, Heal Block, Calm Mind, and a large special move pool are what make it great.
Dugtrio's niche is Final Gambit. Other than that it is fairly restricted mainly towards ground type physical attackers.

The other replay above hardly makes Arena Trap ban worthy, as it couldn't even stop a Lead From setting up rocks, and there is no certainty at all that the Terrakion had priority.

Terrakion often inherits from Breloom, I couldn't take that chance. The point was you saw how easily his trapped killed one of my pokemon, leaving my defenseless. If he had used a Blissey it would've been the same result. No difference

 

[Lcass4919]

The difference is that all the Pokemon that can get Arena Trap have fairly limited movepools, limiting the range of Pokemon that can be taken out by Arena Trap. On the other hand, Pokemon inheriting Shadow Tag from Gothitelle or Mega Gengar have access to incredible offensive and supporting movepools, making them much more versatile and much more efficient trappers.

just want to throw it out there that this statement is actually false. it has a limited movepool...but depending on the pokemon used, due to the perfect coverage trapinch gives in those four moves(even with abilities factored in), it can take out almost anything. the only real problem is the lack of trick/taunt. which isn't a huge deal when potential trappers have 130+ attack. really, just means it can only break massive holes in teams(Taking out at the LEAST 2 pokemon in a stall team, aka beating it lmao), rather then the entire team itself.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Perfect coverage won't do much to Stall teams, because the pokes are just too bulky for that. Imo what I see Arena Trap now is more threatening to Offensive teams than Stall. The fact that you can revenge kill a poke without fail (and you don't die, unlike Final Gambit) is what Offensive teams worry more than Stall.

 

[Rhayader]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223398760

Hey, can someone help me out how I could've predicted better in this match? It's obviously just what I have to do, right?

If you build a stall team that wins on turn 0 by matchup you don't get to complain when you might lose to trapping by matchup. What could you have done else? 1. Learn from team preview what gothitelle is obviously supposed to do and at least try do double switch accordinally (which you've done, but too late). 2. Actually prepare your team in the teambuilder for this matchup.

They have fairly limited move pools, but they don't have bad move pools. Landorus T can use Sucker punch, Equake, SEdge and Stealth rock/Memento (Final Gambit) while Blissey can use Final gambit. Landorus-t is a threat to offense while Blissey is a threat to stall. I posted multiple sets and I'm trying to make a good offensive team w/ arena trap

Here's one

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-223433655
I removed his Terrakion early on so I wouldn't be hit by priority, almost got swept by the Landorus-T

...

Terrakion often inherits from Breloom, I couldn't take that chance.

Your Lando wasn't even scarfed, had that actually been Breloom Terrakion he would just spore you and 2-3ko. The only thing that replays actually shows is how Mold Breaker can setup on Unaware.

just want to throw it out there that this statement is actually false. it has a limited movepool...but depending on the pokemon used, due to the perfect coverage trapinch gives in those four moves(even with abilities factored in), it can take out almost anything. the only real problem is the lack of trick/taunt. which isn't a huge deal when potential trappers have 130+ attack. really, just means it can only break massive holes in teams(Taking out at the LEAST 2 pokemon in a stall team, aka beating it lmao), rather then the entire team itself.

252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 165-196 (40.8 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 174-205 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
The 2 common Unaware walls (aka the threats to offense), good luck killing these. Also take note that this is LO adamant that will lose against any faster offensive mon.

That does not mean Arena trap is not broken. Baring Ghost types and Levitators/Flying types with the correct pokemon you can take out anything you want, that's insane. It's game breaking. There is no way to prepare for it, it effects offense as well as stall, and even Balance. You can use Landorus-T to revenge kill anything you want on offense, as it trades momentum (Which is useless) for priority in sucker punch and utility in SR, memento and Final gambit. Stall gets ripped apart by Choice Scarf Blissey while also not appreciating Landorus-T. Balance pretty much hates all types of Arena trap.

How does lando revenge anything without a scarf or reliable priority is beyond me, better abuse that 89 base HP for the slow Final Gambit though. Also good mention of Choice Scarf Final Gambit Blissey the totally not useless mon against anything other than stall.

Arena Trap isn't broken. If you can't teambuild your precious stall around it you deserve to lose just like you deserve to lose to stall if you can't get around it on offense. Yes, it allows you to revenge kill effectively but you're probably giving your opponent a free turn in the process. Yes, it allows you to succesfully remove a stall mon but being deadweight at the same time against everything else. It's not broken, there isn't any "unhealthiness".

 

[Lcass4919]

Perfect coverage won't do much to Stall teams, because the pokes are just too bulky for that. Imo what I see Arena Trap now is more threatening to Offensive teams than Stall. The fact that you can revenge kill a poke without fail (and you don't die, unlike Final Gambit) is what Offensive teams worry more than Stall.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 774-912 (120.5 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 228-270 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

thats all it needs to do.

252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 165-196 (40.8 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 174-205 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
The 2 common Unaware walls (aka the threats to offense), good luck killing these. Also take note that this is LO adamant that will lose against any faster offensive mon.

and suddenly...*Gasp*

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Heavy Rain: 372-438 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 440-518 (108.9 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 343-406 (84.9 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Latios Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 273-322 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
your other wallbreakers can...wait for it...wallbreak! without fearing pokemon like chansey and diance switching in. most offensive teams run 2-3 wall breakers along with 2 sweepers.

and choice scarf blissey basically nets a ko on anything not named priority/110 or up speed.(well wailord does, so use it lmao), destroying a defensive core, or eliminating the opponents offensive check to your main sweeper can be HUGE for both facing offense and stall.

also theres a vast difference between a well built stall team vs a bunch of offensive pokemon with no synergy whatsoever, and a stall team that is forced to lose to due being locked in and forced to lose.

did you even read that the problem is "picking what dies" rather then "killing everything"?

 

[Rhayader]

and suddenly...*Gasp*

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia in Heavy Rain: 372-438 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 440-518 (108.9 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 343-406 (84.9 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Latios Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 273-322 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
your other wallbreakers can...wait for it...wallbreak! without fearing pokemon like chansey and diance switching in. most offensive teams run 2-3 wall breakers along with 2 sweepers.

and choice scarf blissey basically nets a ko on anything not named priority/110 or up speed.(well wailord does, so use it lmao), destroying a defensive core, or eliminating the opponents offensive check to your main sweeper can be HUGE for both facing offense and stall.

also theres a vast difference between a well built stall team vs a bunch of offensive pokemon with no synergy whatsoever, and a stall team that is forced to lose to due being locked in and forced to lose.

did you even read that the problem is "picking what dies" rather then "killing everything"?

You realize none of these pokemon are staying on those hits? Do you even know how stall plays?

Also sure no pokemon on offense packs priority or more than 107 (which is the real speed tier scarf blissey hits) speed. Scarf Wailord is even worse as it has both of its defense stats low as shit, meaning it has to get in safely somehow (either sac something or momentum, and thats against a mon with no priority), or risk taking a relatively huge hit to his hp, lowering your final gambit damage which its literally all he's good for. Btw stall really has nothing to do about momentum+trapping even on regular tiers and ITS STILL NOT A BIG DEAL BECAUSE ITS STILL NOT THAT BAD.

Also I'm sorry but your teambuilding argument is flat-out retarded. Offense has cores too and is often based played around the idea you sac a sweeper in order to sweep with the other, meaning that its less damaged by having a single mon removed, unlike stall.

I'll say it again. If you choose to play with a matchup based team archetype like stall you don't get to complain about losing by matchup, that's in addition to the fact that stall actually has ways to teambuild around trappers destroying the team from the team builder.

Also, 1 final note:
Are you running Choice Band Arena Trap Terrakion or Choice Scarf Blissey/Wailord on your team? Do you run both? By putting even 1 of these on your team you give up MUCH valued team slot that could easily be used to something else. Also isn't using something obscure like Scarf Blissey in order to beat stall doesn't make it just as "limiting and unhealthy" as you claim Arena Trap to be?

 

[Adrian Marin]

Oh hello Mr. "Are you retarded blah blah blaaah *****," it's a pleasure to meet you! I do hope this was just an April Fools joke; I really found it amusing, frankly. If this wasn't an April Fools joke, then I'll come up with a retarded argument to counter your spectacular one.

Do you even know how stall plays?

Are you an imbecile? There, I did it! I am officially as intelligent as you for making a hollow insult to apparently bolster my argument!

Btw stall really has nothing to do about momentum+trapping even on regular tiers

This isn't really relevant, but Gothitelle stall actually exists.

Also I'm sorry but your teambuilding argument is flat-out retarded. Offense has cores too and is often based played around the idea you sac a sweeper in order to sweep with the other, meaning that its less damaged by having a single mon removed, unlike stall.

Did you just say offense revolves around sacrificing Pokemon to sweep with another? That statement makes absolutely no sense. Offense is all about overpowering the opposition with offensive pressure. Offensive pressure is generated through momentum, pivots, wallbreakers, etc. Sacking a team member is simply a compromise all playstyles rely on. However, I don't see how sacking a Pokemon means having to sweep with another. You can't just simply magically sweep the opposition after sacrificing a team member. Your Pokemon isn't using blood magic or something to get stronger! In short, after sacking a team member, the best course of action is highly circumstantial.

I'll say it again. If you choose to play with a matchup based team archetype like stall you don't get to complain about losing by matchup, that's in addition to the fact that stall actually has ways to teambuild around trappers destroying the team from the team builder.

You see, unlike you, we lack the third eye to foresee hidden trappers! If you have a solution, I beg of you to share your divine wisdom.

Also, 1 final note:
Are you running Choice Band Arena Trap Terrakion or Choice Scarf Blissey/Wailord on your team? Do you run both? By putting even 1 of these on your team you give up MUCH valued team slot that could easily be used to something else. Also isn't using something obscure like Scarf Blissey in order to beat stall doesn't make it just as "limiting and unhealthy" as you claim Arena Trap to be?

I don't see how obscure threats are mandatory to defeat stall. Hazards, wallbreakers, stallbreakers, status absorbers, and offensive pressure in general is enough to defeat stall.