np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

[dramadrama]

i dont get how you can say aegislash would destroy teambuilding while playing in landorus-i meta. lol aegi has many checks, like torn-t or sp talon yes it can break them with a lure move, still there are things like gliscor. team match up is one of the big cons of oras meta, id much rather have it fixed by adding sth possibly overcentralizing.
ps. to all idiots: landorus-i won't get better because it can ko one more viable mon its because it could formulate a pretty good core
pps. spinblocking is not a thing since gen V get over it

 

[DuhEternalFury24]

Personally I would love to see aegi back in OU for the simple nd obvious fact that it is a counter/check to the top tier pokes nd tbh aegi is not really that had to defend against anyway so idk why people are saying he is to broken there are ways to get around him you jus have to make the right plays nd predictions at the right time that goes for any threat

 

[BlueLobster]

i dont get how you can say aegislash would destroy teambuilding while playing in landorus-i meta. lol aegi has many checks, like torn-t or sp talon yes it can break them with a lure move, still there are things like gliscor. team match up is one of the big cons of oras meta, id much rather have it fixed by adding sth possibly overcentralizing.

Aegi doesn't change the team matchup element though. All it does is force a load of mons who are good right now in the meta to use weird coverage moves so they are not Aegi weak. Hawlucha, MMedicham, MGallade, Starmie, Jirachi etc become basically unusable unless you start using strange sets to get around Aegi. There is still a matchup element, and all Aegi does is remove a few mons, mainly psychics, from the meta.
Aegi is simply too overcentrilising for the meta. The amount of pokes that became viable purely because of Aegi's banning proves that Aegi does nothing but make the meta stale. I prefer a matchup based meta to a stale one any day.

E at below: It is simply impossible to remove matchup unless everyone runs the same 6 pokemon and sets. Since you can't remove it, there is no point removing as much as possible until you get a boring, no fun to play meta.

 

[dramadrama]

Aegi doesn't change the team matchup element though. All it does is force a load of mons who are good right now in the meta to use weird coverage moves so they are not Aegi weak. Hawlucha, MMedicham, MGallade, Starmie, Jirachi etc become basically unusable unless you start using strange sets to get around Aegi. There is still a matchup element, and all Aegi does is remove a few mons, mainly psychics, from the meta.
Aegi is simply too overcentrilising for the meta. The amount of pokes that became viable purely because of Aegi's banning proves that Aegi does nothing but make the meta stale. I prefer a matchup based meta to a stale one any day.

if we are serious about this game we should try to remove luck based elements of games like the match up. if you have one mon that covers so many mons you will have easier job covering the rest

 

[SketchUp]

if we are serious about this game we should try to remove luck based elements of games like the match up. if you have one mon that covers so many mons you will have easier job covering the rest

Having a good matchup is a reward of a well built team. Of course there are some occasions where you have a bad matchup even if you have a well built team, but the best built teams have these situations the least. Having a pokemon that covers so many pokemon at once is nice of course but it also has disadvantages. In a Aegislash metagame, pokemon like Jirachi aren't as splashable as before, so the amount of viable pokemon you have for the other team slots are significantly lower, which doesn't necessarily make teambuilding easier.

 

[Alfalfa]

if we are serious about this game we should try to remove luck based elements of games like the match up. if you have one mon that covers so many mons you will have easier job covering the rest

But the issue is the fact that Aegislash covers so much that it renders a lot of Pokemon unviable simply of itss presence. All of the bulky Psychics in the tier, such as Celebi, Jirachi, and Slowbro suddenly get a lot worse just because Aegislash exists. Other Pokemon, such as Hawlucha, become a lot worse if they are unable to adapt to Aegislash alone.

 

[AM]

Boy I'm just waiting for people to finally realize that Aegislash got Magnet Rise come ORAS.

 

[PIXIESPRITE]

PIXIESPRITE sorry bro, i cant take a guy srs who says goth is op D:
Your arguments at all are showing me you havent played sth other than ladder in oras yn

Ps: Shots fired

goth is a do-nothing-mon a lot of the time but it+sableye is part of the reason why altaria/lopunny is on every team. whatevs. i guess it's more annoying than op, but my point is that stall gained a lot in oras compared to everything else.

p.s. who are ya? (shots fired lol)

 

[dramadrama]

the fact that team match up in oras is not fair is a fact and if you dont get it you maybe should try playing rather than talking lol.
its not like aegi makes things unviable, just because it can wall them. you can either run coverage moves to beat it, or run checks that will wear it down. thats how this game works. aegi has low speed, lacks recovery which do not make it the most staple wall. somehow lopunny is concidered one of the better ou megas while beiing totaly walled by slowbro. sry thats how this game works

 

[AM]

the fact that team match up in oras is not fair is a fact and if you dont get it you maybe should try playing rather than talking lol.
its not like aegi makes things unviable, just because it can wall them. you can either run coverage moves to beat it, or run checks that will wear it down. thats how this game works. aegi has low speed, lacks recovery which do not make it the most staple wall. somehow lopunny is concidered one of the better ou megas while beiing totaly walled by slowbro. sry thats how this game works

Yeah matchup is there not to that extent that you're making it out to be though. If you're gonna use matchup to justify every single loss that you get it's time to take a step back and re-think your game plan. We still have plenty of good players regardless of these "matchup" issues that do just fine. Yes Aegislash definitely makes things unviable to a very strong degree this is a fact if you actually took the time to analyze the difference in viability between what was used in XY Aegi meta and what was used after its removal from the metagame you would see this. Aegislash has great offensive and defensive prowess, King's shield, and a plethora of options that mitigates this speed issue and the speed factor never stopped it from being effective in the first place. If you're gonna just try and lie to everyone that it wasn't an effective wall and ignore the Subtoxic set that was a fantastic set then chances are you're not exactly inclined to talk about what defines an effective wall. Lopunny is considered one of the better megas, and you know? It's even better with Aegislash cause everything that checks Lopunny reliably with the exception of Hippowdon, although debatable considering Magnet Rise now, loses to Aegislash. Suspects work in the context of the metagame as a whole not the mon by itself. Sorry that's how this game works.

 

[firehusky]

Aegislash literally blanket checks half the meta. You can literally slap on an aegislash on your team and cover up your weaknesses to mega metagross, mega diancie, mega gardevoir, and mega heracross. There is like zero opportunity cost involved with using aegislash. It doesn't take up your mega slot, and offers defensive utility and offensive wallbreaking power at the same time. By putting aegislash on your team, you literally make it 60% better. Speed and a lack of recovery isn't even that bad for aegislash. It's speed never stopped it from being effective during the XY meta and it's bulky enough to take a hit and retaliate back. Aegislash is a great wall. It has a solid defensive typing and is super bulky. The SubToxic set is pretty hard to break through and many of its checks and counters such as mandibuzz and hippowdon are just completely neutered by toxic.

edit: kind of ninjad

 

[yoloburn]

the fact that team match up in oras is not fair is a fact and if you dont get it you maybe should try playing rather than talking lol.
its not like aegi makes things unviable, just because it can wall them. you can either run coverage moves to beat it, or run checks that will wear it down. thats how this game works. aegi has low speed, lacks recovery which do not make it the most staple wall. somehow lopunny is concidered one of the better ou megas while beiing totaly walled by slowbro. sry thats how this game works

which are these unfair team matchups I keep reading about?

and please don't tell me it's Lando-I, that's a separate issue.

 

[Enki]

Also:
For those advocating Aegislash OU, so that it centralizes the metagame and hopefully helps the matchup problem by making a bunch of specific 'mons more useable while at the same time nerfing a bunch of stuff, are you sure it does? I remember back then that the 1825 stats had Aegislash first with a "low" 20% usage stat, compared to the 35% peak Landorus Therian had in late XY or Garchomp this last month (27%).

 

[SketchUp]

which are these unfair team matchups I keep reading about?

and please don't tell me it's Lando-I, that's a separate issue.

The matchup problem is the fact that there are so many threats walking around in the OU tier that it is impossible to be prepared for everything. I might have a team that can defeat all S and A+ rank pokemon bar Bulky SD Mega Scizor, so if I face that Mega Scizor once in a while I have a disadvantage over my opponent. If you introduce a pokemon that can wall many pokemon (like Aegislash does) you have 5 teamslots left to prepare for the other threats, so you have more room to prepare for the Mega Scizor you were previously weak to.

 

[Freeroamer]

I think people, especially those who are new, need to give this ladder a chance to stabilise and benefit from actual experience on the ladder. Just because you've played 3 games at <1100 against people using stuff like Choice Scarf Piloswine doesn't give you the necessary education to make solid arguments which will actually benefit this thread and influence people's opinions on the suspect. Throwing out hypotheticals is all good and well, but in reality they're pretty meaningless because things are different in practice compared to on paper and I've no doubt there will be shifts on the ladder to compensate for metagame trends.

Just an opinion on the actual thing being suspected, I think Lando-i should have been put up first but I'm glad to see potential changes to the tier, I think it's been quite boring for a while now.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

I think aegis will be way fun to play in this meta. W/ the newly increased accessibility of knock off, including to some mons which it "counters" now that it has magnet rise, like pinsir. In my oppinion, we should remember how broken people expected things like Kyub to be before they were permitted to join our midst. And, while aegislash has a fxnal 720 BST in the hands of a good player, Kyub actually has a 700 BST, even in the hands of a trash player. I think it's funny how much more anti the meta has become since it left towards this thing. The majority didn't even consider it broken at the time, it was just crazy over-centralizing. New threats have since arisen to threaten it, such as Sableye, as I know many have mentioned, which just lols at aegis, who can't block its status w/ kings shield, and can't hardly be scratched by it. Frankly, I want stall to become more viable, not cause I play it- that's just gross- I just really like breaking it... >:]

Tl;dr, I think aegis deserves a shot. People are blowing it way out of proportion. It's good, but also totally manageable. Also, lando t is just as centralizing, even now, after its peak usage has seemed to pass. It's also received many new checks in the new meta, many of which are held back currently.

 

[dramadrama]

Yeah matchup is there not to that extent that you're making it out to be though. If you're gonna use matchup to justify every single loss that you get it's time to take a step back and re-think your game plan. We still have plenty of good players regardless of these "matchup" issues that do just fine. Yes Aegislash definitely makes things unviable to a very strong degree this is a fact if you actually took the time to analyze the difference in viability between what was used in XY Aegi meta and what was used after its removal from the metagame you would see this. Aegislash has great offensive and defensive prowess, King's shield, and a plethora of options that mitigates this speed issue and the speed factor never stopped it from being effective in the first place. If you're gonna just try and lie to everyone that it wasn't an effective wall and ignore the Subtoxic set that was a fantastic set then chances are you're not exactly inclined to talk about what defines an effective wall. Lopunny is considered one of the better megas, and you know? It's even better with Aegislash cause everything that checks Lopunny reliably with the exception of Hippowdon, although debatable considering Magnet Rise now, loses to Aegislash. Suspects work in the context of the metagame as a whole not the mon by itself. Sorry that's how this game works.

lol if you are talking about taking time to analyze the diffrence between the metas you might want to try it yourself. in oras mons like medicham, heracross or hawlucha got much worse, the impact of aegi would be that big as it was in xy. yes aegislash if a very good defensive mon, but it faces some problems. if you look at whirlwind hippodon its a great wall, but when it has to check both bisharp and talonflame it fails most of the time, since it cant recover between dealing with these two. aegi with limited recovery has similar thing going for it. i never said team match up factors all the games, i just see it is a big problem for many players (even the biggest names, like pdc), everyone knows that its a problem and that it needs to be fixed, you shouldn't counter with bullshit like 'you should plan your game plan better'
ps. thanks for random lopunny core, these are always nice additions to suspect discussion

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Uh, in case you're not aware, Starmie was UU the whole time while Aegislash was around, and while Aegislash wasn't the sole perpetrator behind this (since it took until Greninja was banned for Starmie to regain its full usefulness), it was certainly one of the big things that kept Starmie down. Now, if I remember correctly, that is really the only time it has dropped below OU for a significant length of time in the entire history of the franchise. And it'll do just fine if Aegislash comes back into the meta. Right.

Oh boo hoo, UU might get the star that they've been crying about due to the shit hazard removal the tier already has. I'm sure many will be upset about starmie, and personally, I've been using it on the suspect ladder perfectly fine. Aegi cannot switch into scald, and starmie was just simply outclassed by the latis back then anyway, now in oras the speed tier is just more important with keldeo, lando, and metagross on the rise. I've been using, and seeing starmies all over the suspect ladder so far, and they are performing pretty well with everybody testing out their new toy aegislash.

A lot of people are not necessarily giving this suspect test a chance even. A suspect ladder is always going to centralize around the pokemon it's for, and to be honest, the overcentralization isn't as bad as many dramatize. Oh no serp is useless! Serp still glares the shit out of everything and aegislash doesn't want to risk losing air balloon or getting a SpD increase with shadow ball/flash cannon. Celebi main niche was nasty passing, and it can still do it just as well as when aegi wasn't around. Jirachi loses viability, yes, but it pretty much does exactly what aegislash does in the tier, checks metagross and fairies.. except aegislash isn't stupid with skillhax with serene grace. Anything in BL or lower, (heracross, staraptor, pinsir, beedrill, hawlucha, medicham, soon to be gallade) I wouldn't even consider relevant as effected by aegislash since they're already below average.

I've just been running a regular OU team that I've been using before this suspect test even went live, and it's doing perfectly fine with aegislash's presence. There are multiple checks to it and they were not purposely slapped on.

I just feel like there is a lot of personal bias with the aegislash metagame, they're searching for any excuse to keep the metagame as it is, and just simply don't want a change at all. Even during the Giratina-O suspect test, regardless as a joke, there was more discussion of bringing him down and the benefits than even aegislash.. and aegislash doesn't even bother half the things giratina does! I honestly would've liked to have seen that suspect test to it's end just to see the outcome as a lot people seemed really interested in a giratina-O centralized metagame. (which I wasn't) An aegislash one only seems a little less centralized.

TD;LR, give the suspect test a try and stop theorymoning about how awful it is or is going to be or about the overcentralization, the ladder is for aegislash, and naturally, everybody is going to be preparing and using aegislash up the ass rather than in a stable metagame where the hype will die down.

 

[mohit senapaty]

After playing a lot of games in the suspect ladder, both with aegi and without it here are my conclusions.

The thing that makes a lot of mons loose viability is it's ghost typing. We have very few ghost pokemon and the one that exist (gengar) is pretty weak defensively (against psychic) to begin with. And ghost is super effective against psychic and it's secondary typing i.e steel gives it resistance to the psychic types. So psychic types are bound to suffer and dark types will be favored more. Before, we did not have too many dark/ghost type pokemon without being significantly weak to secondary typing of the oft mentioned mons like jirachi, starmie, slowbrow, celebi etc. As the number of psychics went down, keldeo got a big buff. (As a check to fire/ground/dark) that check aegi. If you are carrying a threat against ghost type, more or less you are also carrying a threat against psychics.

Psychic just like ghost typing provides a relatively neutral coverage and most psychic have a secondary typing that make them viable in other ways making them a potent threat. So, introduction of aegislash has mostly affected the psychic types and a few fighting types may be.

There are viable teams without Aegislash, but it involves using a different set of pokemon that we have not been using for a while. (zard y, zard x, infernape (infernape was OU during XY i believe and dropped post Aegi ban)). The question is it good to have a few really strong mons and dedicated checks to most of their sets or a wide range of mons and not being able to check all of their sets at the same time. Unfortunately there is no middling ground here. As of now I am leaning towards allowing it in OU and giving it a bit of time (like a month or so.) Suspect ladder for 2 weeks may not give enough time to judge the metagame.

Aegislash is not the strongest pokemon and may never be, but it defines what pokemon will be the strongest.

 

[Alfalfa]

Oh boo hoo, UU might get the star that they've been crying about due to the shit hazard removal the tier already has. I'm sure many will be upset about starmie, and personally, I've been using it on the suspect ladder perfectly fine. Aegi cannot switch into scald, and starmie was just simply outclassed by the latis back then anyway, now in oras the speed tier is just more important with keldeo, lando, and metagross on the rise. I've been using, and seeing starmies all over the suspect ladder so far, and they are performing pretty well with everybody testing out their new toy aegislash.

A lot of people are not necessarily giving this suspect test a chance even. A suspect ladder is always going to centralize around the pokemon it's for, and to be honest, the overcentralization isn't as bad as many dramatize. Oh no serp is useless! Serp still glares the shit out of everything and aegislash doesn't want to risk losing air balloon or getting a SpD increase with shadow ball/flash cannon. Celebi main niche was nasty passing, and it can still do it just as well as when aegi wasn't around. Jirachi loses viability, yes, but it pretty much does exactly what aegislash does in the tier, checks metagross and fairies.. except aegislash isn't stupid with skillhax with serene grace. Anything in BL or lower, (heracross, staraptor, pinsir, beedrill, hawlucha, medicham, soon to be gallade) I wouldn't even consider relevant as effected by aegislash since they're already below average.

I've just been running a regular OU team that I've been using before this suspect test even went live, and it's doing perfectly fine with aegislash's presence. There are multiple checks to it and they were not purposely slapped on.

I just feel like there is a lot of personal bias with the aegislash metagame, they're searching for any excuse to keep the metagame as it is, and just simply don't want a change at all. Even during the Giratina-O suspect test, regardless as a joke, there was more discussion of bringing him down and the benefits than even aegislash.. and aegislash doesn't even bother half the things giratina does! I honestly would've liked to have seen that suspect test to it's end just to see the outcome as a lot people seemed really interested in a giratina-O centralized metagame. (which I wasn't) An aegislash one only seems a little less centralized.

TD;LR, give the suspect test a try and stop theorymoning about how awful it is or is going to be or about the overcentralization, the ladder is for aegislash, and naturally, everybody is going to be preparing and using aegislash up the ass rather than in a stable metagame where the hype will die down.

Celebi's niche during Aegislash XY was not Nasty Passing; it had a niche of being a good Aegislash lure with Nasty Plot + Earth Power, which enabled it to lure in and OHKO Aegislash.

Pokemon in BL or lower that would be affected by Aegislash are not exactly below average; many of these Pokemon are good, but suffer from lower viability due to current metagame trends not being in their favor. For example, Hawlucha favors a fast, frail metagame rather than a slower, bulkier one similar to the current metagame. Mega Pinsir is only suffering in terms of viability because the metagame is less favorable to it in ORAS with new checks like Mega Diancie and Mega Metagross. Even with these new checks, Mega Pinsir is still a very dangerous Pokemon to face, so calling it "below average" is not exactly an accurate description.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Celebi's niche during Aegislash XY was not Nasty Passing; it had a niche of being a good Aegislash lure with Nasty Plot + Earth Power, which enabled it to lure in and OHKO Aegislash.

Pokemon in BL or lower that would be affected by Aegislash are not exactly below average; many of these Pokemon are good, but suffer from lower viability due to current metagame trends not being in their favor. For example, Hawlucha favors a fast, frail metagame rather than a slower, bulkier one similar to the current metagame. Mega Pinsir is only suffering in terms of viability because the metagame is less favorable to it in ORAS with new checks like Mega Diancie and Mega Metagross. Even with these new checks, Mega Pinsir is still a very dangerous Pokemon to face, so calling it "below average" is not exactly an accurate description.

AND iirc pinsir was at one point S-rank during the x/y aegislash metagame :O So where exactly does metagame trends have to do with this if pinsir was S-rank during it's worse metagame trend out there when now, during it's best time to shine with reduced bird spam, it's BL? You could say, "diancie and metagross" but back then birdspam was still a massive issue, mawile was around, and so was aegislash. BL is basicly a banlist for UU... anything in BL is practicely not even OU and therefore I find them irrelevant to shape the tier over. Would pinsir see a benefit from aegislash being reintroduced with a mega metagross check now present? It's theorymoning, but it's an interesting point.

Regardless I think celebi still had BP on that set. Since you brought up the fact celebi has an answer to aegislash on it's own as well as being able to baton pass, I don't see it's viability being hurt as badly as many say it will now.

 

[AM]

AND iirc pinsir was at one point S-rank during the x/y aegislash metagame :O So where exactly does metagame trends have to do with this if pinsir was S-rank during it's worse metagame trend out there when now, during it's best time to shine with reduced bird spam, it's BL? You could say, "diancie and metagross" but back then birdspam was still a massive issue, mawile was around, and so was aegislash. BL is basicly a banlist for UU... anything in BL is practicely not even OU and therefore I find them irrelevant to shape the tier over. Would pinsir see a benefit from aegislash being reintroduced with a mega metagross check now present? It's theorymoning, but it's an interesting point.

Regardless I think celebi still had BP on that set. Since you brought up the fact celebi has an answer to aegislash on it's own as well as being able to baton pass, I don't see it's viability being hurt as badly as many say it will now.

Torn-T and Klefki sit at BL right now and are defining pokemon in their own right. Not sure how you can say this and just miss aspects like this that should be pretty obvious :/

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Torn-T and Klefki sit at BL right now and are defining pokemon in their own right. Not sure how you can say this and just miss aspects like this that should be pretty obvious :/

In which case, is torn-t and klefki enough of a reason for something to remain out of OU? They are hardly viable other than for niche reasons.. one being a pivot and a difficult to switch into mon for rain teams, and the other a supporter that opens sweeping opportunities. Personally I'm shocked they sit in the UU banlist, and not higher in actual OU considering their usage on rain teams and balance teams alike. However in klefki's case.. if anything it'd just rise in viability with aegislash, considering behind screens lando+aegi core can be frightening. IIRC klefki wasn't BL in some of the old aegislash metas, but I could be wrong.

Scolipede is another one that comes to mind, but scolipede doesn't necessarily care what the metagame consist of, it still just baton passes anyway.

 

[Albacore]

Support Characteristic: A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
Uh does it really have support moves? I personally never see it supporting any poke since it usually performs on its own. Things like Greninja has some support move like Spikes, Toxic Spikes and U-turn to keep momentum. While I don't see it has those kind of moves.

You're completely misreading what something being broken under the support characteristic actually means. "A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep." - how does this not describe Aegislash perfectly? It provides a crazy amount of support for sweepers and wallbreakers like Keldeo, Landorus, YZard, Lopunny and more, whether it runs Pursuit or not. You don't need support moves to be broken under the support caracteristic, you just need to be able to easily create a situation which other Pokemon can thive off to an unhealty degree, and this is, above all else, what Aegislash is accused of doing here.

 

[urban]

In which case, is torn-t and klefki enough of a reason for something to remain out of OU? They are hardly viable other than for niche reasons.. one being a pivot and a difficult to switch into mon for rain teams, and the other a supporter that opens sweeping opportunities. Personally I'm shocked they sit in the UU banlist, and not higher in actual OU considering their usage on rain teams and balance teams alike. However in klefki's case.. if anything it'd just rise in viability with aegislash, considering behind screens lando+aegi core can be frightening. IIRC klefki wasn't BL in some of the old aegislash metas, but I could be wrong.

Scolipede is another one that comes to mind, but scolipede doesn't necessarily care what the metagame consist of, it still just baton passes anyway.

The problem with your argument is that it is pretty much based on the premise that usage = viability, which is flawed in and of itself. Pokemon are placed in BL based on how they operate in a separate tier, yes, but that doesn't mean they don't have an effect on the OU metagame. Serperior is currently in BL, though I believe that will change with the next update, but the point still stands that you're using poor logic if you don't prepare for a certain pokemon just because its BL.