The issue is that EVERY mon suffers from this "weakness". You can't say that Aegislash alone is crippled by paralysis hax because that's a weakness that everything bar electric types suffer from. That's even worse than saying that Mega Kangaskhan or Mega Mawile aren't broken because you can cripple them with burns; being weak to burns is a trait held by every physical attacker in the game. If something is so slow that the speed drop from paralysis hardly matters, there's no point in bringing it up because it should be common knowledge can ruin any mon's sweep, even Arceus.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]
- Thread starter McMeghan
- Start date
- Status
Aegislash is completely unable to switch into status. Last thing aegi wants, is to go for sub, switch to blade, or KS and get parahax right on the spot forcing him to take a hit. Burn puts him on a timer making KS+sub wasted turns and physical variations become dead weight. The only status he doesn't care for, is toxic, obviously.. and sleep speaks for itself.
To above^ the difference with aegislash and mega mawile/kanga is aegislash is meant to be used as a pivot in practice, it's purpose is to switch in, sponge hits, hit something, scout, get the fuck out. Even in the case of aegislash bothering slowbro or jirachi, there is still that risk for him to switch in and get statused.. whereas no body in the right mind would switch kanga or mawile into offensive or defensive pokemon unless they knew they were choice locked in a move it can handle.
In summary, aegislash doesn't have that mindless, can take anything on ability in the metagame flooded with scald, and t-wave users. Every pokemon in the metagame has a way to deal with aegislash, hax reliant or not, aegislash cannot risk these odds.
Aegislash will never be in a 1v1 situation, this is a game with 6 pokemon on each side. Anything aegislash scares will be forced out yes, but nothing out of the norm from double switching and sticking latios with bisharp in a 1v1 scenario. However the majority of the time he will be switching into these threats and taking chip damage.
Also to those saying "aegislash will be on every team!" I find that extremely biased theorymoning.. like pretty much everything else, aegislash will eventually peak at usage when teams are prepared for it.. then lose usage until the metagame cools down a bit, similar to how during the giratina-O test diggersby was everywhere being able to lure giratina into foul play, then players started using their brains when it became a thing and diggersby was no where to be seen. Now teams that are not prepared for him may have issues when he's not worth preparing for.. however you can say that about pretty much anything, and the preparing/teambuilding is more impossible in the metagame as is, which aegislash alone isn't a culprit for, and if it becomes one, again, what's the difference.
To above^ the difference with aegislash and mega mawile/kanga is aegislash is meant to be used as a pivot in practice, it's purpose is to switch in, sponge hits, hit something, scout, get the fuck out. Even in the case of aegislash bothering slowbro or jirachi, there is still that risk for him to switch in and get statused.. whereas no body in the right mind would switch kanga or mawile into offensive or defensive pokemon unless they knew they were choice locked in a move it can handle.
In summary, aegislash doesn't have that mindless, can take anything on ability in the metagame flooded with scald, and t-wave users. Every pokemon in the metagame has a way to deal with aegislash, hax reliant or not, aegislash cannot risk these odds.
Aegislash will never be in a 1v1 situation, this is a game with 6 pokemon on each side. Anything aegislash scares will be forced out yes, but nothing out of the norm from double switching and sticking latios with bisharp in a 1v1 scenario. However the majority of the time he will be switching into these threats and taking chip damage.
Also to those saying "aegislash will be on every team!" I find that extremely biased theorymoning.. like pretty much everything else, aegislash will eventually peak at usage when teams are prepared for it.. then lose usage until the metagame cools down a bit, similar to how during the giratina-O test diggersby was everywhere being able to lure giratina into foul play, then players started using their brains when it became a thing and diggersby was no where to be seen. Now teams that are not prepared for him may have issues when he's not worth preparing for.. however you can say that about pretty much anything, and the preparing/teambuilding is more impossible in the metagame as is, which aegislash alone isn't a culprit for, and if it becomes one, again, what's the difference.
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Does Smeargle run King's Shield enough for this collateral damage to be significant?
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Well, I've been looking into things, and my thoughts are that this suspect will result in either of two of the following metagames: the one with a plethora of threats, which we had seen before the suspect test, and the current one, which revolves around Aegislash and a few other threats, the latter not as threatening as Aegislash. Both metagames have their flaws, and from the looks of this thread, it is obvious that this suspect test will result in very close votes.
My thoughts about Aegislash itself are these: The previous suspect test had already proved Aegislash was broken, and this was further supported by the resulting, more enjoyable metagame. Of course, when Game Freak decided to remake the two worst games of the franchise, the metagame took a huge blow right to the groin. New threats were all over the place, and the community could mostly agree that more suspect tests could heal the metagame. However, the idea of unbanning a broken Pokemon to bandage the metagame came up. In order to not go too in depth here, I'll go straight to the point: The combination of King's Shield and Aegislash is broken as proven by the previous suspect test. That being said, what we really should be doing is determining whether Aegislash without King's Shield is broken or not. Without King's Shield, the uncompetitive coin flips are no longer a problem. All there is to deal with is its unique Steel/Ghost typing that has proven to be a nuisance as well. King's Shield should be banned from the current metagame in order to determine its impact. It will be interesting to see new sets show up, like LO 4 Attacks, Choice sets, or even something like Quiet AV.
I will look into the suspect ladder, though I'll likely not get reqs since League of Ledgers has taken my interest recently.
This is just my early impressions on Aegislash because I only laddered a bit. I'll come back to this thread later when I have more experience. That said, Aegislash needs to stay Uber. This thing was incredibly good. It overcenteralized the metagame a lot and forced mons into the backburner just because of it's presence. In addition, this thing was the perfect glue mon. It fits perfectly on nearly every team and it limited teambuilding because you would have to run 4-5 different Pokemon just to eliminate this thing. It could execute a variety of sets making it extremely unpredictable. You never have any idea what he's running without sacrificing a Pokemon or two. Sure, Aegi would be a nice check to ridiculous 'mons like Mega Metagross and Mega Altaria but I don't believe bringing an overpowered mon to check another overpowered mon is a good idea. It also can be checked situationally. Bisharp is a good example of this. It can beat Aegislash without Sacred Sword. However, this goes back to it's unpredictability. Nearly every C/C this thing has dies to another set or is situational. Mega Lopunny can check Aegi situationally due to scrappy but King's Shield exists so it's 50/50.
All in all, this thing is just too good for OU to be a healthy addition to the metagame.
My (raw) conclusion is ban
All in all, this thing is just too good for OU to be a healthy addition to the metagame.
My (raw) conclusion is ban
But being vulnerable to status moves and potential hax is a weakness that belongs to every mon in the game. Nothing likes being haxed by paralysis. No physical attacker likes to be burned. Almost nothing likes to be put to sleep. How is "Aegislash is balanced because it can be haxed by paralysis" a valid argument? It's a bad, vacuous argument that can be applied to literally any mon in the game from Magikarp to Mega Rayquaza. It shouldn't be considered a factor when determining whether or not Aegislash is balanced.
You understood absolutely nothing.
Look at what aegislash checks:
-Gardevoir
-Jirachi
-Slowbro
-Chansey
-starmie
Can aegislash reliably switch in? Not at all..
-Gardevoir - Will-o, Shadow ball, SpD drop from SB
-Jirachi - Parahax sticking it in blade form later in the match, preventing KS, giving setup oppertunity, fire punch, fire punch potential burn making KS and sub waste.
-Slowbro - Scald burn, Again, crippled throughout the match without support, cannot sub or KS, physical sets become dead weight.
-Chansey - See jirachi parahax (note aegi still wins 1v1 anyway since chansey is passive, but nobody is staying in with chansey anyway)
-Starmie - 2HKO's aegi with hydro pump as he switches in, potential scald burn.
How can aegislash be considered a reliable answer to any of these mons with so many different outcomes are possible in the opponent's favor?
You're switching aegislash in to check these pokemon, you're not switching mawile, kanga, rayquaza, magikarp, or anything else because out of everything, only aegislash is a pivot. His job is to switch into these pokemon, and there is still a risk factor to that. The others are only sweepers or wallbreakers that usually come in on a choice locked move or when momentum is in their favor. Other defensive answers usually don't mind the status as they have recovery. Aegislash on the other hand is being used for this element of checking these pokemon and being able to switch into them the majority of the time, which isn't always in aegislash's favor.
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"You understood absolutely nothing"? Oh boy, are you a hypocrite.
Most common sets don't run Will-O-Wisp, and the same with Shadow Ball.
What if Parahax doesn't happen? Even if Jirachi DOES get off Fire Punch and kills it, chances are it's likely dented.
If it was Slowbro vs Aegislash, it's likely that Slowbro alone would win. But a good chunk of teams are ready to take on Slowbro as well.
See Jirachi for Chansey.
9 times out of 10, Aegi will be running Shadow Sneak, which is a priority move. A +2 Atk Aegi with max Attack EVs and an Attack boosting nature will OHKO Starmie.
One more thing, for a good chunk of your arguments, you are relying on LUCK, and usually low chances. 9 times out of 10, those said chances won't be in the person fighting against Aegislash's favor.
Also, Aegislash is a pivot? What the heck did I just read?
EDIT: Like firehusky said, your scenarios are either worst-case scenario (for the Aegislash user), or super biased. Aegislash isn't going to switch into every possible move, nor does it need to.
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If Gardevoir runs will o wisp, it can't run shadow ball. Obviously you can't counter anything if every possible secondary effect happens to you. Aegislash is by text book definition a check to all of those mons as the definition for check is "pokemon a can check pokemon b if given a free switch excluding hax". Even in realistic situations, yeah aegi is going to get worn down a bit but it still checks them. I mean scald only has 30% chance to burn and you're kind of acting like it's burning every time you use it. Yeah obviously there's a risk factor involved but that can be pretty much said for every pivot that tries to switch in on a move with a crippling secondary effect.
edit: ok so the idea that I get from reading your post again is that aegi can't switch in on them reliably because it'll get haxed. I mean in your own post you said "look at what aegislash checks", and your scenarios are like super biased and remember that aegi is a check as you said so it doesn't need to switch in on every possible move.
edit: ok so the idea that I get from reading your post again is that aegi can't switch in on them reliably because it'll get haxed. I mean in your own post you said "look at what aegislash checks", and your scenarios are like super biased and remember that aegi is a check as you said so it doesn't need to switch in on every possible move.
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/me epically facepalms
Gardevoir: You do realize there's such a thing as SPECIAL AEGI SETS. You also realize that the Gardevoir player won't always use Shadow Ball predicting an Aegi switch in. Beware the prediction argument- it goes both ways. Moreover, Shadow Ball and WoW are not used together on the same set.
Jirachi: Yeah, have fun relying on hax to cripple Aegi. Chances are, if the mon requires hax to beat another mon, it's a shaky check at best.
Slowbro: Same as Gardy and Jirachi- special sets exist, and Aegi checks reliant on hax are not even checks.
Chansey: Not all Chansey run T-Wave either- most prefer Toxic, and they never run both on the same set.
Starmie: Are you forgetting that Aegi gets a free turn to KS and gain Leftovers recovery? If it does that then Starmie needs max rolls both times to 2HKO Aegi, while Aegi KOs comfortably with Shadow Ball.
I'm probably going to be ninja'd as fuck when I click reply, but the point stands. Losing to hax does not make a Pokemon bad, and you seriously need to brush up on your knowledge of OU's sets. Shadow Ball + WoW Gardevoir does not exist; neither does T-Wave + Toxic Chansey or Hydro Pump + Scald Starmie.
Sanger Zonvolt still has a solid point in that no Pokémon likes being statused, aside from obvious exceptions like Poison Heal Gliscor. While Aegislash has no means of recovery and, as such, burn is a nuisance to it, that doesn't stop it from blasting shit with Shadow Ball. I'd also like to add that Aegislash still reverts to Shield Forme even when fully paralyzed on a turn, so it can at least switch to its 150/150 defenses to take an incoming hit. Looking at the Pokémon you listed:
Jirachi isn't doing shit to Aegi and there is still a chance for the sword to successfully execute King's Shield, nerfing Jirachi's Attack if it were to spam Iron Head or use Fire Punch, since p much any physical move Jirachi learns makes contact. Either that or it could just Shadow Ball Jirachi's ass from the get-go and leave the Wish Pokémon crippled.
Gardevoir can deter Aegislash with Shadow Ball, but that sacrifices coverage or utility and leaves it easily checked by Aegislash's teammates if Aegi itself cannot deal with it. Again, getting burned doesn't stop it from blasting Mega Gardevoir with its own Shadow Ball and then follow up with Shadow Sneak, were it to run that.
Slowbro's Scald, once again, can leave Aegislash burned, but there's still a 70% chance of that not happening. Meanwhile, it's OHKOed by Shadow Ball after SR damage. Checkmate.
Chansey is walled by Aegislash despite being able to paralyze the sword. If it already has a Substitute up, it's literally not doing a single thing to Aegislash while Aegi itself just stalls the shit out of Chansey.
Starmie can 2HKO with Hydro Pump, but it's an inaccurate move and you clearly didn't mention its low accuracy, potentially giving Aegislash a free switch. I've gone over burns too much by this point, it won't prevent Aegislash from sniping Starmie with Shadow Ball.
The points made by Viridi and firehusky before me definitely hold true as well. You're regarding the situation with tunnel vision, only taking into account the chances that Aegislash will be haxxed and will suffer from its effects, without taking into account any situation where the hax won't apply.
On a final note, for the love of Primal Groudon, stop acting like a little smartass and show some mature behavior in a proper conversation. Telling others they 'understand nothing' while bringing up mostly completely invalid points is disgustingly hypocritical.
I wasn't trying to be a smartass, but my point which I was bringing up the OP was not quite understanding at all. You're completely right about the idea of hax still not applying, however my argument was how he was comparing aegislash to mawile, kanga, and the like.. nobody could bring up they weren't ban worthy due to variability to status, because the situation of them being brought in on something that influences status was very uncommon or never. Aegislash on the other hand, he has to switch into these threats with the potential to get screwed over, that's how he is played.. switch into the pokemon, and blanket check it. When aegislash is brought it (which it will for the most part be switching in to sponge hits) there is always another factor to include which may go wrong. It's not as mindless and easy as others make it sound when it comes to bringing aegislash on the field without momentum shifted to their favor.
Dude... the guy you first quoted was referring to every Pokemon, not just the ones you mentioned. Yes, those two may be quite broken, but like he said, saying Aegislash is balanced because it can be status'd/haxed is like saying a team with P-Kyogre, P-Groudon, M-Ray, Xerneas, Arceus, and Darkrai in OU is balanced because they can all be haxed/status'd.
Even if it does get crippled, Aegislash is still able to blanket check a crapload of Pokémon in OU by virtue of its inherent traits. Its typing lets gives it three immunities and nine resistances, as well as one double resistance. Besides the ones you've listed, there's at least 15 to 20 more Pokémon that it can effectively deal with; some may be able to deal with Aegi, but they're forced to run lesser coverage moves just to beat Aegislash, which just shows how great an influence Aegislash has on the OU tier as a whole. Aegislash may go down faster when burned, but it's not all that hard to pair it with a cleric to receive Wishes and have its status removed - I could say this for every Pokémon, but Aegislash pairs so easily with common clerics and deals with their checks/counters quite handily, which means that cleric + SR support is literally all Aegislash needs to blanket check half the metagame and even blanket counter a few Pokémon. Switching in is always risky in competitive Pokémon, but isn't that practically a given in any strategy-based game? Every move brings a new risk, which requires players to think one step ahead and imagine every possible scenario. Compared to many Pokémon, Aegislash doesn't face nearly as much pressure switching in and out.
You all don't get it. The point is that Aegislash is supposed to check/counter and switch into these things. Of course any pokemon that gets status isn't going to like it except for those that benefit or just deal with it. If there's a Sableye out you wouldn't switch in a physical attacking pokemon because they will get burned. You'd switch in a heatran or something like that. No one is just going to switch in something if they know it will get haxed and crippled from a burn. So Aegislash doesn't completely check/counter the pokemon that it's SUPPOSED to check/counter when it runs the risk of getting haxed. Use your brains people.
Honestly, you have to have SO many checks to aegislash in any format to not be destroyed by it.
Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria, Mega Lopunny, Mega Sableye, and Landorus T (The ones everyone complains about) are all decently checked by a lot of pokemon common in the tier, scarfed mamo taking out 3 of these guys right away, as well as weavile, talonflame, azumarill, and others. They are not as bad as everyone makes them out to be. Aegislash is a threat. He cannot be hit hard enough, is not threatened by any hazard but spikes, as well as putting on way too much offensive pressure to make the battle fair at all. I would hate to see him back in the format. He's bad enough in VGC, don't add him back here.
Mega Metagross, Mega Altaria, Mega Lopunny, Mega Sableye, and Landorus T (The ones everyone complains about) are all decently checked by a lot of pokemon common in the tier, scarfed mamo taking out 3 of these guys right away, as well as weavile, talonflame, azumarill, and others. They are not as bad as everyone makes them out to be. Aegislash is a threat. He cannot be hit hard enough, is not threatened by any hazard but spikes, as well as putting on way too much offensive pressure to make the battle fair at all. I would hate to see him back in the format. He's bad enough in VGC, don't add him back here.
This was said in the Giratina-O suspect thread and represents Aegislash quite well. Aegislash by itself is not broken as stated by everyone, but does form rather strong cores with some S Rankers, also stated by everyone (Lando-I and Keldeo). Lando-I was already broken before this suspect even happened, Aegislash just makes him better, but Aegislash is looked as the broken one due to its supporting capabilities for Lando-I, the one that will potentially be sweeping.
And the mention of King's Shield, a King Shieldless Aegislash would remove the pressure off physical attackers without worrying the -2 King's Shield gives, would be prone to Pursuit if trying to switch out. Aegislash will still be good without KS, let alone the sets it could run w/o KS, but these little things help make it a healthier Pokemon. It would be much easier to revenge kill once it's chipped down, which will be easier to do if KS goes. Just a few Pokemon I can think of atm that would be happy of KS being gone: Mega-Gallade, Talonflame, Mega-Heracross (if it chooses to run Knock Off to hit Gengar as well), Mega Lopunny without the "50/50" plays. Though I understand the arguments with a KS ban since it's technically a complex ban and if it didn't apply to Greninja with Protean then the same should apply here, but I do not buy the Smeargle argument because KS Smeargle is literally pointless besides in doubles, and this is for singles.
It's not a matter of whether it's significant, but that bans are supposed to cause minimal collateral damage if it can be avoided. If we cause less collateral damage by banning Aegislash rather than banning King's Shield (assuming the combination of Aegislash + King's Shield is what is broken), then the proper choice should be to ban Aegislash.
Finally got reqs! My thoughts are that Aegi is not that broken, but the suspect test was not that good of a true test in many ways.
One thing to consider is that Bisharp is probably the best pokemon in OU with the suspect allowed, and you may not wish to have both on your team since they stack ground and fire weaknesses. Aegi is one more pokemon for lando to OHKO as well. What does annoy me about it is that many cool 'mons like mega zam, mega skep, and mega aerodactyl take a big hit from this thing existing. In fact pretty much every mega except the charizards and gyara took a hit (but since MGyara is my favourite mega, thats pretty nice).
It's hard to gauge Aegi because most players didn't spend much time teambuilding. Everyone on suspect pretty much copy and pasted the following team: lopunny, aegi, fat chomp, lati, keld, thund/lando or something pretty similar
One thing to consider is that Bisharp is probably the best pokemon in OU with the suspect allowed, and you may not wish to have both on your team since they stack ground and fire weaknesses. Aegi is one more pokemon for lando to OHKO as well. What does annoy me about it is that many cool 'mons like mega zam, mega skep, and mega aerodactyl take a big hit from this thing existing. In fact pretty much every mega except the charizards and gyara took a hit (but since MGyara is my favourite mega, thats pretty nice).
It's hard to gauge Aegi because most players didn't spend much time teambuilding. Everyone on suspect pretty much copy and pasted the following team: lopunny, aegi, fat chomp, lati, keld, thund/lando or something pretty similar
Quite the interesting suspect test we have here and I plan on making this suspect test to be first one that I will participate in. I've noticed in making teams that Mega Lopunny in particular could synergize well with Aegislash and both can team up very well with strong and prevalent OU Pokemon like Rotom-Wash and Landorus-Therian. Mega Lopunny helps out Aegislash by resisting and immune to pesky Dark and Ghost Types and Aegislash assists Mega Lopunny by making short work out of Fairies, Fighting, Psychic and Flying types. In my OU (suspect test) battles, Aegislash comes through with amazing stall either finishing off the second-two-last Pokemon or getting that King-Shield up from a Physical Pokemon so Lopunny can safely switch in. To be honest, I'd like to see Aegislash come back to the wonderful land of OU. However, I can predict that their would be a meteoric rise of OU Dark types and powerful Pokemon that can take advantage of earthquake. In particular;
- Mandibuzz - lol foul play
- Bisharp - defiant fun times
- Landorus-T - welp, CB earthquake
- Diggersby - Swords Dance Earthquake, gl hf
But if you're forced to use cress, which is b rank, to beat kube, then isnt that centralizing? also gliscor and lando outspeed so you need to force a switch, meaning they still easily check you.
TO quote a guy who quoted a guy who said something brilliant that people are ignoring that makes my current opinion of no ban essentially set in stone regardless of my ladder experience (just when i was starting to lean ban lol):
I think we're all forgetting what the point of a suspect test is. It's not build the perfect meta, it's is this mon broken or not? and for aegi/, the answer is a resounding NO.
ITP: Aegi can't check stuff becuase it can get haxed or predicted with an extremely rare set.
My god, Aegi is a darned check, no one said it's switching into every move a poke can pack. Using your logic, Mew has no checks cause it can run basically any relevant move. A check needs to switch into one darned move, the more moves, the better the check. It can switch into every move Chansey can ever run bar T-Wave, of course it's a fucking check. I don't care if the rare weird sets screw my check, if it kills Chansey it's done it's job. Sacred Sword Aegi will always kill Chansey before it is killed.
If the best you can do it T-Wave a slow poke, you are countered, as Aegi is immune to every damaging move/status Chansey will ever use out of low ladder (and they do sod all SE, hence why no one uses them, let alone are they harming Aegi). Name a mon who doesn't normally beat Aegi who wins if it's para'd, without factoring in hax, cause I can't think of one.
I think you need to learn what a check is.
Referring to the quote you post that bolded part, although I don't understand why people keep bolding to prove a point when it doesn't make arguments any stronger. Being over centralizing and creating a dynamic where strong threats are basically even more powerful in the meta Aegi creates would be enough in my eyes if I haven't already explained it to keep it away from OU. While I'm here I'll address it piece by piece from that quote. An unfair expectation is the entire premise of why this suspect is taking place in how it's to balance out the metagame due to these centralizing threats in the first place when anyone who was around for the Aegislash meta and suspect know that there are numerous subjective aspects as to why it was banned and under the circumstances it was able to hit that Uber benchmark. Ever since that suspect test you were not allowed to take back your vote so from a policy standpoint so to speak this is one reason why it's being suspected again. If we're gonna have a suspect test on Aegislash let it be for the right reasons but don't tell me it's to balance out the meta, that's just silly and both anti-ban and pro-ban camps who were around know this to be true assuming the circumstances that took place during that time.
Lando-I is already ridiculous and has been for months however that's not really the subject at hand. Everyone keeps bringing up Landorus as to what Aegislash helps in the meta when I'm pretty positive it's been stated a good 50+ times already that its support traits from both an offensive threat and the typing it has for defensive utility benefits way more than just Landorus and does so in such a mindless manner. We've been saying multiple times Aegislashes traits benefit already strong stuff that is borderline unhealthy and turns them into obvious unhealthy aspects in the meta. That is my concern.
It's obvious broken is a subjective aspect because you have someone like myself who will considering broken to not directly correlate to the Pokemon individually but as to what surrounds that Pokemon and the metagames associated with it and then you'll have people who are simply focused on the Pokemon alone and nothing else. I think Aegislash is ubers for creating an unhealthy meta-game an more or less broken for the ease at which it can be implemented on to teams with just about no opportunity cost while warping the meta-game. Lol he shouldn't be brought down to fix things we should be fixing the stuff that has been considered the justification for this test to happen. This test by all means was warranted but the timing was just completely off when there are a handful of stuff wrong with this meta that is fixed by subtraction not addition. So this has nothing to do with that bolded statement because I believe he should stay ubers for making the meta even more garbage and find it's a massive waste of time. Realistically that's how some will vote so there's my point of view if I even bother getting reqs.
I've already pointed out before that Talonflame in no way is on par to Aegislash if we're talking about centralization and effectiveness so I'm not going to elaborate on that and I would think there shouldn't be a need to honestly. Not sure where the idea Head Smash was bad when the whole purpose of a lure which Aegislash has a bunch of is designed to remove the issues your team-mate has. Aegislash does this with ease and already puts this constraint to play a bunch of guessing games as to what it's holding in the end so if we want to go ahead and bring out the term "competitive" then yes it's sort of uncompetitive in how you can be lazy as hell, put Aegislash on a team, and call it a day while potentially cheesing through King Shield or matchup.
I know someone is going to reply to this with some "well this check can do that, or this check can do this" and tbh if we're gonna just play a match with words in how you've established yourself to be the messiah of OU battling in how you beat Aegislash by all means save it for someone else. Also not sure why at this point in the meta we're talking about semantics of what a check is like if you seriously have to wrap your head around that and don't know this you probably shouldn't be trying to make an argument in the first place. secondbest this wasn't addressed to you the post sort of just ended up speaking to others haha.
Just interjecting to say that Gastrodon, of all things, is a beast in this meta. It walls pretty much all of the even-more-hyped ground-types except land-i and just shits on common rock setters with toxic and scald. It can even run clear-smog over earthquake to stop stuff from setting up on it. Gastro also beats lefties/balloon aegi 1v1 by outslowing, tanking a hit, and retaliating with scald or earthquake.
[quote="thesecondbest, post: 6178571, member: 238142"]But if you're forced to use cress, which is b rank, to beat kube, then isnt that centralizing? also gliscor and lando outspeed so you need to force a switch, meaning they still easily check you.
TO quote a guy who quoted a guy who said something brilliant that people are ignoring that makes my current opinion of no ban essentially set in stone regardless of my ladder experience (just when i was starting to lean ban lol):
I think we're all forgetting what the point of a suspect test is. It's not build the perfect meta, it's is this mon broken or not? and for aegi/, the answer is a resounding NO.[/quote]
You are treating Cresselia as though it is bad, when it is not. If you need a catch-all wall to check the threats like Zard Y, Talonflame, Keldeo, Kyurem-B, etc., then Cresselia is good for what you need it for. Just because something is B Rank does not mean it is bad.
Being broken is not only the only reason to ban a Pokemon from OU. Having a particularly negative or over-centralizing presence, despite not fitting the exact definition of broken, is also another reason to warrant a ban. Do not think that we only consider suspecting things on the premise that they are broken.
TO quote a guy who quoted a guy who said something brilliant that people are ignoring that makes my current opinion of no ban essentially set in stone regardless of my ladder experience (just when i was starting to lean ban lol):
I think we're all forgetting what the point of a suspect test is. It's not build the perfect meta, it's is this mon broken or not? and for aegi/, the answer is a resounding NO.[/quote]
You are treating Cresselia as though it is bad, when it is not. If you need a catch-all wall to check the threats like Zard Y, Talonflame, Keldeo, Kyurem-B, etc., then Cresselia is good for what you need it for. Just because something is B Rank does not mean it is bad.
Being broken is not only the only reason to ban a Pokemon from OU. Having a particularly negative or over-centralizing presence, despite not fitting the exact definition of broken, is also another reason to warrant a ban. Do not think that we only consider suspecting things on the premise that they are broken.
In X and Y u could make a case that aegislash is broken, however RN Im not sure if u can really make that case
Aegislash has fit right into this broken A@@ meta tbh and thats not really a good thing. There's so much over centralizing in the meta ATM that aegislash in a wired way almost balances it out. To all of you who say thats it will hurt the meta think to yourself, can it get any worse, idk about how much it can improve the meta but from a centralizing, "brokenness" standpoint it fits right in with all the other Op mons in the meta atm and while thats not a good thing
its the truth
As AM said if we're going to test aegi dont be to balance out the meta, YOU DO THIS BY BANNING THINGS NOT ADDING
Ive seen ALOT of people doing what they did in x and y with replacing a random poke on their team with aegi and the results are no where near as successful as the test in x and y which was decided by a mere 2 votes
From my experiences Im voting to bring aegi to ou unless someone can change my mind, im open minded about this
Aegislash has fit right into this broken A@@ meta tbh and thats not really a good thing. There's so much over centralizing in the meta ATM that aegislash in a wired way almost balances it out. To all of you who say thats it will hurt the meta think to yourself, can it get any worse, idk about how much it can improve the meta but from a centralizing, "brokenness" standpoint it fits right in with all the other Op mons in the meta atm and while thats not a good thing
its the truth
As AM said if we're going to test aegi dont be to balance out the meta, YOU DO THIS BY BANNING THINGS NOT ADDING
Ive seen ALOT of people doing what they did in x and y with replacing a random poke on their team with aegi and the results are no where near as successful as the test in x and y which was decided by a mere 2 votes
From my experiences Im voting to bring aegi to ou unless someone can change my mind, im open minded about this
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