Have you considered that even well built teams have problems,because there are a few things that slip through the net? Aegislash makes that much less likely. And you say that team matchup isn't a problem? Say that to the guy who brings Slowbro,Hippowdon,and Ferrothorn and still loses to Mega Metagross soleley on the set. Team matchup is a legitimate problem :/,stall instaloses to Manaphy+Gothielle. So team matchup has been and will continue to be a problem in the context of the ORAS metagame.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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After laddering for a while (2467 and no plan on voting) I have come to the conclusion that people are gonna bitch about matchup being a component of Pokemonshowdown either way. Even with Aegislash the meta is still diverse as ever. I still see Jirachi, Celebi, and especially Starmie in high numbers which tells me that these mons have teammates that don't mind the average Aegi. Sure I don't see Slowbro (mega or otherwise) anymore but that was an uncommon mon anyway. The main archtypes are still present (although I do notice a lack of stall). So not only do we still have niche mons running around we also have to deal with Aegi's many sets. This is even harder to prepare for than individual mons because most of the time it's hidden information. So overall this suspect might just add another S rank mon to prepare for which is fine by me.
So you ban Aegi then go on to test and ban Lando. Great! The various mons in B- to S rank are still going to be as viable as ever with some even getting a boost due to lack of competition. The gripe is that you have to prepare for too many things but all these mons will still see use with Lando gone. The matchup issue will still remain and the meta will still be as diverse if not more than before.
Short of banning everything in S and A+ rank or introducing a ridiculous but narrow uber (Zekrom, Resheram, or Plakia come to mind as these all only have a few sets to prepare for but please don't do this :P) you're still going see high mon and archtype diversity. This is only going to get "worse" as new gens get added. As such I don't care whether Aegi ends up banned or not because a) it won't do what it was introduced to do and b) I don't use it and I don't feel like it makes my teams any better than they currently are despite the hype. I recommend that those that are clinging to the old gens of pokemon stop now, stop bitching, and start adapting. There was an excellent post a few pages back suggesting that you use underplayed but threatening mons to surprise your opponent and get an edge. It's called metagaming and is a skill in many more games as well as pokemon. Yes, teambuilding is an important component of this game now more than ever but I couldn't be happier. Many of you will see this as a "get gud" post but not many people have offered actual solutions just problems. Have fun and good luck :)
So you ban Aegi then go on to test and ban Lando. Great! The various mons in B- to S rank are still going to be as viable as ever with some even getting a boost due to lack of competition. The gripe is that you have to prepare for too many things but all these mons will still see use with Lando gone. The matchup issue will still remain and the meta will still be as diverse if not more than before.
Short of banning everything in S and A+ rank or introducing a ridiculous but narrow uber (Zekrom, Resheram, or Plakia come to mind as these all only have a few sets to prepare for but please don't do this :P) you're still going see high mon and archtype diversity. This is only going to get "worse" as new gens get added. As such I don't care whether Aegi ends up banned or not because a) it won't do what it was introduced to do and b) I don't use it and I don't feel like it makes my teams any better than they currently are despite the hype. I recommend that those that are clinging to the old gens of pokemon stop now, stop bitching, and start adapting. There was an excellent post a few pages back suggesting that you use underplayed but threatening mons to surprise your opponent and get an edge. It's called metagaming and is a skill in many more games as well as pokemon. Yes, teambuilding is an important component of this game now more than ever but I couldn't be happier. Many of you will see this as a "get gud" post but not many people have offered actual solutions just problems. Have fun and good luck :)
In all sincerity, would anyone mind posting a handful of replays where "Aegislash beats its checks easily"? Because as far as I could tell over the course of ~100 games or whatever, this just isn't really the case.
I made the argument in the Serperior suspect test in UU, and think it's applicable here as well. Whenever a mon is suspected, there is a bizarre tendency to assume that the user utilizing the mon in suspect is some sort of god-tier player able to be running whatever necessary set, as well as make all the necessary predictions. It's a bit weird, and frankly I think not grounded in reality, but it's an argument "style" that comes up quite often. Frankly, from what I saw (and while it wasn't a tournament setting, I was near the top of the ladder for a very large amount of my games) was that Aegi typically acted... as you would expect it to. There was no HP Ice-ing on a Gliscor switchin, very few sub-Toxics to beat Mandibuzz, etc.
So as I said above, if anyone could just link like a few replays where Aegi does act in this manner I would genuinely consider changing my opinion.
I made the argument in the Serperior suspect test in UU, and think it's applicable here as well. Whenever a mon is suspected, there is a bizarre tendency to assume that the user utilizing the mon in suspect is some sort of god-tier player able to be running whatever necessary set, as well as make all the necessary predictions. It's a bit weird, and frankly I think not grounded in reality, but it's an argument "style" that comes up quite often. Frankly, from what I saw (and while it wasn't a tournament setting, I was near the top of the ladder for a very large amount of my games) was that Aegi typically acted... as you would expect it to. There was no HP Ice-ing on a Gliscor switchin, very few sub-Toxics to beat Mandibuzz, etc.
So as I said above, if anyone could just link like a few replays where Aegi does act in this manner I would genuinely consider changing my opinion.
Usually I'm not too big on gen 6 and/or tiering in general, but I do have quite alot thoughts about Aegislash that I might as well share here. I know we hit page 40 already and it's not like there will be anything hugely groundbreaking anymore, but here we go:
When playing in suspects I usually think about whether or not the metagame is more enjoyable, rather if it's "objectively" better. I do this because it's incredibly hard to even think of factors that define a good metagame. Objectivity is completely impossible in this instance when you look at it, Pokemon at this point is a way too complex game with way too many elements that it could somehow create a balance in it, not only is it not possible to draw a line anymore between "great" and "too good", factoring the sheer influence of matchup it isn't even remotely possible to cover all the bases in pre-game preparations, thus making it impossible to even have a balanced metagame. That being said, take everything i write here with a grain of salt, making comments about a metagame always comes from my own standpoint and i am nowhere near capable of having an objective overview of the game.
Aegislash just has this variety of sets it can run, that make it incredibly obnoxious to play against it. And the real problem with it is that you will barely ever be able to tell what kind of aegislash you are facing. When facing a charizard for example you will be able to tell if it's x or y based on the team in like 8 out of 10 cases. This is not the case for aegislash at all, because aegislash's different sets cover similar defensive utilities for teams, have incredibly different checks and counters though. It's almost impossible to play defensively vs an aegislash without being in a major disadvantage from the get-go. If you guess wrong you will get your, say Mandibuzz head smashed, get set up an sd on your incoming heatran, etc. You get the idea. The meta is really lacking mixed walls that can reliably check a big variety of aegislash sets without being worn down, without losing to any common aegislash set.
Aegis is just so incredibly easily splashable on every team it's not even funny. I know it's a suspect test and everyone is going to use the aegislash because using it is the point of the suspect after all, etc. But looking back at my teams from xy where aegis wasn't banned yet, I used it on at least 90% of my teams. Not because I exceptionally like it or anything, it's just so versatile, there is barely any reason to not use it. It adds so much defensively to any team, especially heavy offense, it has this stupid ability to play a pivot for itself via stance change (i will adress this later), it's an incredible wallbreaker, it can function as a lure, it can function as a setupsweeper, it can reliably provide pursuit support, it can toxic, etc. Odds are you will need several of these rolls in your team and what's nicer than having so many possibilities in one mon so you can cover other bases with the rest of your team. This is where the whole story gets kinda iffy, is that a good thing or a bad thing? One could argue it's great to have a check for many of the centralizing megas and other threats, but at the other hand it is just centralizing by itself. Usually i'm not really good with predicting how a metagame would look like in the future, but it's pretty obvious that aegis will hit ou like a truck in both usage and viability. I already talked about it before, but aegislash might be one of the best lures ever, simply because of the variety of sets it can run, making it so incredibly easy to build cores around it. Also a thing i'd argue to be terrible for a metagame, it's just not possible to prepare for common aegislash + x combinations.
Kings shield and stance change are a terrible concept to begin with, it's just way too good. I could talk more about that, but there is barely any point to, it has been covered way too much at that point anyways.
When playing in suspects I usually think about whether or not the metagame is more enjoyable, rather if it's "objectively" better. I do this because it's incredibly hard to even think of factors that define a good metagame. Objectivity is completely impossible in this instance when you look at it, Pokemon at this point is a way too complex game with way too many elements that it could somehow create a balance in it, not only is it not possible to draw a line anymore between "great" and "too good", factoring the sheer influence of matchup it isn't even remotely possible to cover all the bases in pre-game preparations, thus making it impossible to even have a balanced metagame. That being said, take everything i write here with a grain of salt, making comments about a metagame always comes from my own standpoint and i am nowhere near capable of having an objective overview of the game.
Aegislash just has this variety of sets it can run, that make it incredibly obnoxious to play against it. And the real problem with it is that you will barely ever be able to tell what kind of aegislash you are facing. When facing a charizard for example you will be able to tell if it's x or y based on the team in like 8 out of 10 cases. This is not the case for aegislash at all, because aegislash's different sets cover similar defensive utilities for teams, have incredibly different checks and counters though. It's almost impossible to play defensively vs an aegislash without being in a major disadvantage from the get-go. If you guess wrong you will get your, say Mandibuzz head smashed, get set up an sd on your incoming heatran, etc. You get the idea. The meta is really lacking mixed walls that can reliably check a big variety of aegislash sets without being worn down, without losing to any common aegislash set.
Aegis is just so incredibly easily splashable on every team it's not even funny. I know it's a suspect test and everyone is going to use the aegislash because using it is the point of the suspect after all, etc. But looking back at my teams from xy where aegis wasn't banned yet, I used it on at least 90% of my teams. Not because I exceptionally like it or anything, it's just so versatile, there is barely any reason to not use it. It adds so much defensively to any team, especially heavy offense, it has this stupid ability to play a pivot for itself via stance change (i will adress this later), it's an incredible wallbreaker, it can function as a lure, it can function as a setupsweeper, it can reliably provide pursuit support, it can toxic, etc. Odds are you will need several of these rolls in your team and what's nicer than having so many possibilities in one mon so you can cover other bases with the rest of your team. This is where the whole story gets kinda iffy, is that a good thing or a bad thing? One could argue it's great to have a check for many of the centralizing megas and other threats, but at the other hand it is just centralizing by itself. Usually i'm not really good with predicting how a metagame would look like in the future, but it's pretty obvious that aegis will hit ou like a truck in both usage and viability. I already talked about it before, but aegislash might be one of the best lures ever, simply because of the variety of sets it can run, making it so incredibly easy to build cores around it. Also a thing i'd argue to be terrible for a metagame, it's just not possible to prepare for common aegislash + x combinations.
Kings shield and stance change are a terrible concept to begin with, it's just way too good. I could talk more about that, but there is barely any point to, it has been covered way too much at that point anyways.
Haven't we already gone over like 1000 times that ladder != viability ?_? Like maybe I'm missing your point but saying "well I never run into it" isn't really an argument. Yes hp ice is rare, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist and is impossible. You might have not seen sub/toxic, that doesn't make it a bad set. About being a god tier player, again, we're assuming tournament level play, not just ladder level. Was Greninja not broken if people played it poorly? Yes, but we still banned it. Nobody is assuming Aegislash predicts perfectly either, but is the person without Aegislash going to predict correctly? Somebody has to win. And if you're going to make the argument "ladder players can't vote for tournament players", there can be varied Aegislash and good games on ladder. Plus you could go watch smogon tour.
tldr just because you haven't seen people using it doesn't make it not a thing and therefore not banworthy
People do use this stuff, with the exception of hp ice I've ran into everything
Edit teal6 below why would replays make any difference? Does that mean that you just don't believe these sets are used and need to see proof of them in action? I mean, there was an rmt peak #1 posted with sub/toxic Aegislash if that's good enough
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Which is quite specifically why I am asking for replays.
edit As for the comment in your edit, I think theorymonning and practice are always radically different. Situations are ideal in theory, and there is never and psychology involved which is, at least from what I've noticed, the absolute basis of the competitive game. However, I fully admit that I could be wrong, and am opened to being swayed by seeing in action something different, but that hasn't really been provided.
For what it's worth, SubToxic is one of the threats that I listed in an earlier post as viable. What gets silly to me though is the amount of oddly idealized scenarios for any individual Aegi user in the theory posts - frankly, everything seems to work out for the idealized user whenever things like this are discussed, which is why I'd like to see actual examples before coming to a conclusion.
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The difference between Aegi centralisation and the rest of S rank centralisation is that the others aren't completely as splashable. In addition to this, the rest of S rank have at least a little opportunity cost to using (two are megas, all of them are unable to fit on some playstyles (and as such will never make certain teams better), two of them are prediction-heavy when switching in on some of the stuff they check - duplicate positions included). Aegislash has literally zero opportunity cost to using, usually improves the teams that it is on (but never makes them worse unlike putting, say, M-Metagross on defense/stall due to it wasting your mega slot on an offensive pokémon) and flat out ruins the viability of about a third of what is currently viable (either by pushing them into niche/gimmick tiers. As for the "other stuff moves up to replace those which fell" argument I can safely say that it is complete bullsh*t as literally the only thing which took a major hit in viability was Mandibuzz: and even it hasn't fallen into the realm of niche pokemon. Sure some stuff dropped one or two sub-ranks without it, but the fact is that nothing changed down in viability to the same scale as the 'mons that rose in viability when Aegi left. Before I get any "but this isn't XY" bullcrap the fact of the matter is that Aegislash benefits literally none of the new 'mons/tutor stuff, meaning that it isn't going to be making some major threat suddenly rise into major viability. Aegislash certainly does not make the viability of stuff rise to the extent of people even trying to compare it to the number that take a huge hit in viability with it there. The whole "oh aegislash doesn't suddenly make psychic/hjk bad" is absolute horsecrap because it is on virtually every competent team, making it a big liability to be stuff like Celebi, Jirachi, Mega Medicham or Mienshao (yes I'm going into the realms of mentioning a d rank to find a second HJK user not called lopunny, but it doesn't change the fact that it is still a liability to have HJK) as it is giving the monster a free switch every time they come in. For the HJK things, I know there will be people saying "then use Drain Punch" to which I say that Drain Punch's massive drop in power really isn't worth it as it basically stops a glass canon from nuking like it should. Drain Punch M-Medi is not viable no matter how much people promote it as Medicham is a nuke: not something which craves accuracy>power.
Aegislash doesn't automatically improve every team it's on. On stall it compounds the Knock Off weakness and it's a pokemon without recovery, something stall teams don't like. On HO it's a slow pokemon that can't switch into TWave/WoW/Scald and gets checked by things that already give HO trouble like Bisharp and Scarf Lando-T.
Balance is the only playstyle where Aegislash is always welcome, so in that regard it's not different from the other S rank mons working exceptionally well on a single playstyle and decently on the others.
Balance is the only playstyle where Aegislash is always welcome, so in that regard it's not different from the other S rank mons working exceptionally well on a single playstyle and decently on the others.
After achieving reqs, my personal opinion on Aegis is keep that shit banned. In the current suspect ladder, it's essentially dominated by HO teams that absolutely love Aegislash's presence and seem to compound the problem. Combined with its ridiculous level of unpredictability that disallows counters, an opportunity cost of almost nil, and blanket checking a large portion of the metagame, it doesn't exactly equal a healthy addition to the tier. The fact that it can fit on virtually any team archetype and always pulls its weight almost appears to put you at a disadvantage for not using it. Becoming such a force that seems to alleviate team matchup doesn't seem to be accurate, as was said in the thread that Aegislash simply redirects the problem as it might lower some threats but increases others, getting us nowhere. Furthermore, Aegis has ridiculous offenses coupled with STABs that have almost no reliable switchins, and those that can switch in can easily be bopped by an appropriate coverage move, or even worse an entirely different set than expected. KS doesn't really help either, besides allowing Aegislash to play 50/50s that are often (not always) in its favour when facing a physical attacker that's trying to dispatch it with a contact move. While it's not a strong argument (and not a real 50/50 as both players pick the move), it's still something to take into consideration. It simply seems too much for OU and dropping the viability of a large number of Psychics and Fairies and essentially making more great Pokemon even harder to handle such as Landorus and Mega Lopunny, I'll be voting to keep this thing out of the tier. Stats, movepool, typing....
It's dangerously close to hitting the broken and overcentralizing reasons for a ban in my opinion.
It's dangerously close to hitting the broken and overcentralizing reasons for a ban in my opinion.
Stall was already willing to use Doublade to cover powerful wallbreakers because it had Aegislash's same typing with much less utility.
Pokemon without recovery aren't exactly unheard of for Stall teams, if they offer the defensive utility to hold the core up until their particular opposing threat is gone. In Aegi's case, that means he only has to last longer than the shakily frail Mega Gardevoir or Mega Gallade or Mega Metagross etc. Heatran serves a similar purpose as a good defensive core member despite lacking recovery. Aegislash isn't expected to wall entire teams alone, just to serve as a blanket solution to a set of threats (maybe a dozen or two) that you see maybe 1-2 of per team, but that put in serious work against the Stall archetype. If Aegislash had recovery to wall the entire metagagme that easily, we wouldn't even bother trying to test it.
In what manner does Aegislash compound the Knock Off weakness? We've discussed how Aegislash makes Psychic types so much less viable: one reason is because he plays their role almost better in every relevant respect. Jirachi didn't just drop off because it lost to Aegislash, it dropped because Aegislash also did the things it was later brought in to do (pivot able to stop hard hitting Mega Wallbreakers). The only Knock Off weak mon off the top of my head would be Chansey: most other KO weak mons (Slowbro, Celebi, Jirachi) that might find their way onto Stall teams would fade out because there's little reason to run them instead of/alongside Aegislash.
HO doesn't inherently require the mon to have RIDICULOUS speed, and Hyper Offense is less concerned with checks than counters since the playstyle mostly revolves around beating on the opponent and making sacs to keep momentum. Considering Aegislash has high natural bulk, grabs momentum easily thanks to his typing, and still has the power to threaten his checks (lacking any particularly consistent counters), he fits the criteria for a generic HO mon pretty well. His ability to spin block and beat virtually every defogger bar Mandibuzz makes him a boon to hazard control, something HO appreciates since they depend on Suicide leads to lay the hazards and then try to maintain pressure to avoid a removal oppportunity. Hyper offense mons tend to primarily be fast because the majority of mons with the power to pressure the opponent like that don't have the bulky to stomach retaliation for very long the way Aegislash can.
More to the point, another mon that finds its way onto Hyper Offense is Lopunny because of her ridiculous speed. Aegislash gets past the bulky Psychic and Fairies that would check her, and also has ways to weaken priority users to the point Lopunny has no trouble pulverizing what's left of the cores Aegislash diced up.
People keep bringing up "it has ways around its checks" please, this is OU. Tell me one pokemon that's 100% countered by another, there isn't a lot.
Mvenusaur hard counters keldeo, chansey hard counters almost every special attacker, talonflame hard counters scizor, azumarill hard counters mega gyarados, mvenusaur hard counters mega altaria. There are probably others, but I don't have a lot of time. The difference is that other pokes need a coverage move or have to sacrifice something, or they just have no counters. Aegislash drifts further towards the no counters and even closer to the no checks portion of ou, which is non-existant. He can break through all of his checks with the right set, or just strong attacks, without running coverage sometimes. That's what sets him apart in my opinion.
Keldeo can viably run HP flying
Name a soecific one?
Azumarill takes 50% from Earthquake, gyarados also doesn't need to mega evolve.
Scizor kills Talonflame w/ banded Knock off after rocks:
I think you're right about that last one, but it's not always that easy to counter anything in OU
We rely on checks for the most part
Thats true, but all the pokes I listed at least have solid checks, which aegislash doesn't, except spdef gliscor, but if that becomes popular, so will hp ice.
Actually, Auto LO or Auto-WP Aegis already ran HP Ice occasionally, so it's not even an actual counter...
What? No, for example. The SD set is 100% countered by Tankchomp. But HP ice beats Tankchomp.
If we know Aegislash is SD set we can run Tankchomp as a counter, but since we don't know that it's difficult.
If we know Keldeo doesn't have HP flying then Venusaur is a counter. But since we don't know we use Venusaur as a pivot or a check.
We shouldn't throw around counter so easily. Aegislash is hard to counter, but so is Cary-Y. It can lure in your chansey with Flare blitz ect but we still switch in Chansey without a worry in the world
If we know Aegislash is SD set we can run Tankchomp as a counter, but since we don't know that it's difficult.
If we know Keldeo doesn't have HP flying then Venusaur is a counter. But since we don't know we use Venusaur as a pivot or a check.
We shouldn't throw around counter so easily. Aegislash is hard to counter, but so is Cary-Y. It can lure in your chansey with Flare blitz ect but we still switch in Chansey without a worry in the world
Keldeo vs Venusaur
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 112-132 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- 67.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 284-336 (88.1 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Keldeo needs to hit Venusaur on the switch with HP Flying to get the 2HKO, and needs some kind of boost to do so (with hazards), ergo be at +1 on the CM set or holding Specs. The former is tricky to get to while Venusaur is still around, and the latter is exploitable locked into what is otherwise a specific coverage option. HP Flying also means Keldeo gave up his best tool vs Celebi. even Keldeo's best option against Venusaur gives him a shaky chance 1v1 and makes him exploitable in context of a team.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Celebi: 134-158 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
Azumarill vs Gyarados
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 216-255 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 216-255 (65.2 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 494-584 (149.2 - 176.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 164-194 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
Gyarados has to Mega for that chance, and without the boost he's depending on an incredibly unlikely damage roll. CB Azumarill meanwhile will 2HKO virtually every offensive Gyarados set with Play Rough, while BD can check Gyarados by setting up alongside it and having a good chance to survive +1 EQ with Sitrus Recovery.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 246-290 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 1322-1556 (399.3 - 470%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Talonflame vs Scizor
Scizor needs the Rocks to OHKO Talonflame with anything on the band set, while Talonflame outspeeds and OHKO's with Flare Blitz. On the other hand, without the band (to change to Bullet Punch for a 1-2), Scizor needs high rolls to get the 2HKO.
And the thing is, Aegislash doesn't have counters, which you could say of Zard-Y and Landorus-I. But Aegislash has very few consistent checks as well: He has a couple checks to different sets, but almost nothing that can be thrown on a team and say "I have Aegislash covered" as opposed to "I have SD and Crumbler Aegislash, but not SubToxic covered". Aegislash requires you to scout his set to play around him right, and sometimes you can find you weren't adequately prepared for the set you're facing because you had to patch a weakness to Lopunny, Landorus, or even another Aegislash set. This inability to adequately prepare for Aegislash's variety of sets without using several teamslots is a constraint on teambuilding, arguably similar to the problem we have with the huge number of threats. Aegislash's sets all share his benefit of really good defensive typing and stats, but the roles they can be made to play mean SD Aegislash and SubToxic Aegislash are about as distinct as Boosting Landorus-T and Gliscor are.
Can we stop this set of champions fallacy? Aegislash can only run 4 moves at a time you know. And based on the team archetype you should be able to figure out at least two of its moves. For example its almost a given that it runs King's Shield which gives it only 3 attacks, which means any of Shadow Ball/Sneak/Sacred Sword,etc. Toxic/Substitute Aegislash is also a thing though but thats not exactly gonna sweep you now is it? Point being that each of its sets has different checks, but there definately some sure fire counters in most cases i.e. Gliscor/Mandibuzz, now before you say they lose to HP:Ice/SD+Head Smash I just wanna say that those are overall inferior options outside of luring those specific mons.
On mobile, so can't do fancy quoting. First of all, king's shield is not a given. I feel like a lot of the points of this post come from that assumption. Second of all, you can't just tell what set it is from team preview because of how good they all are wth similar roles, it's nowhere close to Zard x vs y or something. Finally, head smash is definitely good enough to be considered a standard move considering the amount of work it puts in on physical sets, it's not a shitty lure. and hell, as a lure it certainly works and drawing in things like mandibuzz or tornadus t. Of course it and hp ice are bad outside of luring certain mons, that's what a lure is. Of course they're useless unless they have gliscor or something, you run it for gliscor.
sorry my fren but i must disagree.
edit : ninja'd by Megazard Z and im the 1000th post! O:
can you identify which 4 they are going to be at first glance?
this is silly simply for the fact that aegislash can consistently run any of it's main sets on any archetype. HO can easily fit on subTox and stall/balance can always run offensive aegi variants. they don't decrease the effectiveness of the team, but can overall boost the team synergy.
wrong. just because it has king's shield doesn't mean it's a must.
because that isn't the purpose of the set? it's meant to weaken teams to the point where other members can work through your opponent's team.
spdef gliscor is only the "sure fire check" in said scenario because subtox aegi shits on mandibuzz. i just want to say that the main reason why we think that aegi shouldn't come down is because of how consistent it is. it's consistency in a game is almost guaranteed (unless you play bad or your opponent has a full team of anti-aegi mons which would mean they ultimately lose to other threats) and it has sheer presence to aid it in it's work.
edit : ninja'd by Megazard Z and im the 1000th post! O:
And that's why I mentioned that King's shield is almost a given. And if it doesn't have king's shield than its not such a good pivot anymore is it? It just becomes pursuit bait, or easily forced out if you predict the correct attack. Head Smash as even you've said is kinda ehh in terms of coverage except for Tornadus-T and Mandibuzz, and HP:Ice is just terrible except for gliscor but that's all been said before :)
EDIT: But consistency master race ;;. I like checking MGross/MAlt/Pursuit trapping role compression D:. Also congraz on tiering contributor Zanbaku wd.
EDIT: But consistency master race ;;. I like checking MGross/MAlt/Pursuit trapping role compression D:. Also congraz on tiering contributor Zanbaku wd.
I always sigh when i see people saying that aegi is a pivot...
Also King's Shield is far from necessary on aegislash lol. It often appreciates the extra coverage more than it does King's Shield simply because King's Shield is a momentum killer and rather easy to play around. The move still forces EQ for coverage, but the fact that there is an Aegislash means that the King's Shield threat is there even when it is not carried. I love running 4 moves Aegi on its sets exc. SubToxic as it gives me so much freedom when compared to the KS variant. I do sometimes run it, but I will often forgo it, and if you think that all Aegi are going to be running KS it shows that you haven't faced Aegislash's issue to its fullest.
also...
>implying pursuit is on every team by saying that it suddenly loses its niche if it can't cause an attack drop. Reun is Pursuit weak, but it is still a damn good pivot; so is M-Latias. That point really doesn't cut it.
I really wouldn't call azu a counter to mega Gyarados, you can only switch in once.
In most relv calc rocks are up, so specs Keldeo w/ HP flying 2HKOs Venusaur.
Aegislash has NO counters. Fact
A specific Aegislash set is EASILY countered by a plethora of mons, but you don't know the set thus reducing most mons to mere checks
A plethora of mons? The few counters for the most common set alone is like 3-5 Pokemon from my knowledge, and even then it can be reduced further by as little as a move swap for KS, not an entire spread change or different goal swaps.
Name a set, and we'll see what counters it has
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