NOC Fallout New Vegas NOC [GAME OVER - Wastelanders Win]

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Fatecrashers said:
so far all you've said is 'that's jalmont being jalmont', and all he's said is i don't wanna talk about it unless i'm up for lynching, neither of which is satisfactory from my point of view and i don't want this to get dropped
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You missed the post where I, admittedly passive-aggressively, explained this further.

Let's break down what has you confused.

Jalmont says that he is for no lynching.
He later says that this was to see who might agree with him, because anyone who would be for not lynching is mafia.

Clearly this scheme is poorly thought out and usually would just get that villager lynched. Therefore you don't buy this explanation.

But what you don't realize is that THIS KIND OF SHIT is exactly why I don't let Jalmont play my games. And I'm not going to play into his game by lynching him.
 
um... @Fatecrashers...
Jalmont said:
Ok. Yeah I was kidding about no lynch. We should definitely lynch someone lol. I thought we could get a discussion going based off that which sort of worked ??? But I think we have moved past that stage where there are more pertinent things to be talking about.

I am intrigued by the von/moi discussion but I want to reread it so I can understand exactly where both sides are at. That being said, my initial impression was that it seems like both are arguing for the sake of argument; I feel like there's not really much to both sides, and yet they are making something out of nothing. How likely is that to be true?? Probably not hugely likely, but I think it's interesting to note that this argument has basically taken up the majority of the focus of the day, which I'm not sure I'm a fan of. Like I'm going to come back to that a little later once I get some food/do some work before I make any hasty judgements.

I just wanted to get both of those things off my chest before I come back and talk about other stuff that's been happening in the game that I feel are fairly easy to lose track of given the moi/von thing.
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Jalmont said:
Idk man :/ I wanted to be semi-believable so I had to put some effort into it ? I'm not really sure what you guys mean by it reads "odd."

i mean, if I'm mafia there's no need to do something like that to bring attention to me right ? I could easily just not do something that puts me in danger ? I actually wish people had put more pressure on me but oh well :/
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Jalmont said:
bzzzt incorrect, but i reckon that's par for the course for you then eh? (wait don't get mad it's just a joke !!!)

Just so it's clear I've never been a proponent of no lynching ever. It would be fairly easy for me to bring up every single post I've ever made detailing what that's the case but I don't think that's quite useful in any case. My hope was that I would get pushed a little harder on that, but I wasn't. Oh well. And since that's not really a focal point right now, I see no need in really defending myself re: no lynch any further.

I find that Celever's sentiment of "you can't make big posts on iPad" a pretty poor argument considering that one does not need to make big posts at all to be successful. Large posts clutter the thread causing actually pertinent discussions to stagnate over dumb "he said she said" type arguments that usually end up being meaningless. On the plus side, they look cool so it's fairly easy for mafia type up a whole bunch of nothing. Viewing thread --> not replying is also a weak reason to vote someone but eh.
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whether or not you LIKE what he's said is irrelevant since he's said SOMETHING unless you're talking about after you asked him to elaborate more in which case you should be more specific because I spent an entire minute finding these quotes
 
Eh, i meant that haunted is not the type to speak a lot. Was that the wrong expression? Sorry about that, English sometimes is so hard.

For lightwolf, please refer to topic

For spiffy and fate:You know, the way they would like each other's posts and stuff like that. But as I said, it is not reliable tell. Spiffy did stated that he joined this game to solely interact with fate, and all.
 
1) yeah, I think it was the wrong expression. I could be wrong though. No idea.
2) ah, figured it out.
3) yeah, doubt that's a tell, i generally like posts that I completely agree with or find funny, i'd assume that's what other people do too.
 
hey rssp1 i appreciate you finding those quotes, i went through them earlier as well and unless you see something relevant that i missed, here's what i see

Ok. Yeah I was kidding about no lynch. We should definitely lynch someone lol. I thought we could get a discussion going based off that which sort of worked ??? But I think we have moved past that stage where there are more pertinent things to be talking about.
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i mean, if I'm mafia there's no need to do something like that to bring attention to me right ? I could easily just not do something that puts me in danger ? I actually wish people had put more pressure on me but oh well :/
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Just so it's clear I've never been a proponent of no lynching ever. It would be fairly easy for me to bring up every single post I've ever made detailing what that's the case but I don't think that's quite useful in any case. My hope was that I would get pushed a little harder on that, but I wasn't. Oh well. And since that's not really a focal point right now, I see no need in really defending myself re: no lynch any further.
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basically it boils down to 'my plan was gonna be good if only you guys tried to lynch me but oh well that time has passed'
this sounds messed up to me and i can't decide if this is some elementary reverse psychology bullshit, von raises an interesting point which i want to see jalmont respond to

also cancerous the reason i mocked you earlier is because people like spiffy and jalmont jumped on you for posting a summary for amianki, which looked to them like scummy busywork, so your response was 'hey no i have been contributing as well, look at the pointless busywork i'm getting amianki to do'
 
Personally I am confused about Jalmont's endgame strategy with it. Pretty much he said he did it to get information. Which is wonderful. But I don't get his throwing it out there to catch people in a game that was marketed as more beginner friendly. The question was already posed by me as to what is best way to go about handling a lynch with absolutely no information. I don't get why he would say it. No one gets what he would say it. No one gets why he would chose to consciously put in an opinion then defend the opinion then change his opinion for no reason at all.

It just doesn't make any logical sense. And I'm confused. And I don't get why faking an opinion which was already brought up to create more discussion and to put pressure on himself is any kind of strategy. Only reason he wants pressure on himself is to take it off other people. And that's WEIRD.

Von's post about this is the kind of dumb shit he does and it ruins games makes me want to change my mind and go after a real target. It would suck to try to hunt for info for 12+ pages and just end up lynching a power village role. But at the same time, I don't see him as contributing greater strategy to us as a unit in the future. Nor am I sure Von isn't covering for Jalmont because he's possibly pissed he got stuck on a team with him knowing he'll screw it up.

We have got no solid info. We've had a lot of good dialogue but no one but him looks suspicious. Makes me think that the mafia are more experienced players. I feel we are in a weird kind of dead end. Best we can do is get people to keep talking for more info later to check plans to words/actions.

But honestly, only people I see comfortable lynching right now are Ullar and Jalmont just because I feel like everyone is trying to in some way work with the group and they are kind of out in their own stream of consciousness. And cancerous because I feel like the best mafia "tell" people argued was that he wrote the summary. But that's so weak and I was about to do it that I still think it's arguing nothing.
 
That's one part of it, but I also see this:
I thought we could get a discussion going based off that which sort of worked ???
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i mean, if I'm mafia there's no need to do something like that to bring attention to me right ? I could easily just not do something that puts me in danger ?
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Just so it's clear I've never been a proponent of no lynching ever. It would be fairly easy for me to bring up every single post I've ever made detailing what that's the case but I don't think that's quite useful in any case.
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which is the idk how to properly word it but "primary" part of his plan? To start discussion (not sure if it was actually his post that sparked discussion since correlation=/=causation but discussion did definitely pick up around that time. Also idk why Jalmont would post that knowing that others would think it was scummy if he was mafia unless he's mindgaming us all in which case i'll be annoyed
I do understand your viewpoint though, so i'll also just wait to see what jalmont says.
 
ButteredToast I can verify that Jalmont can do random shit that makes no logical sense because he did that in the only game i've played with him... by claiming mafia to a "third party" that was actually town trying to get scum.
 
sorry for triplepost
ButteredToast the argument is that he had contributed almost nothing before and then randomly appeared out of the blue to welcome a newbie, not that he simply welcomed the newbie and wrote the summary. I don't doubt that the reaction would have been slightly if not completely different if you had done it.
 
vonFiedler said:
You missed the post where I, admittedly passive-aggressively, explained this further.

Let's break down what has you confused.

Jalmont says that he is for no lynching.
He later says that this was to see who might agree with him, because anyone who would be for not lynching is mafia.

Clearly this scheme is poorly thought out and usually would just get that villager lynched. Therefore you don't buy this explanation.

But what you don't realize is that THIS KIND OF SHIT is exactly why I don't let Jalmont play my games. And I'm not going to play into his game by lynching him.
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No it wouldn't. It wasn't poorly thought out at all because there isn't that much to fucking think about. No one in the world would ever get lynched for proposing to no lynch on day 1 because that would be plain silly. It completely served its purpose in that it at least generated something to talk about (moreso than your stupid diatribe with moi). I don't give a shit if you don't like me, but why don't you keep shit relevant to the game instead of being an asshole for no reason? Or is it that you can't control yourself being a douche?
 
Every time you personally attack someone, an adorable dog cries.
Don't make dogs cry. Refrain from personal attacks.

In all seriousness, Jalmont, you said you'd propose viable lynch options (or something similar to that) at about this time (this was said by you earlier in the day). What exactly were you thinking of?
 
I don't think it's ok to treat other users like shit just because you think they are "retarded." Fine, tell that to me in a non-game related setting. When you have to bring it up in a game setting with no point but to be rude to another user then I will call you out. You don't get a free pass because just because it's passive aggressive. Leave personal shit outside of the game. If I can manage to do it, everyone else can too.
 
ok ok fine

in all honesty I do want to hear who you think is a viable lynch target, so please do that when you can (and possibly respond to anything relevant regarding you, I don't doubt there's been something in the posts that have been said since you've been gone).
 
ButteredToast said:
Personally I am confused about Jalmont's endgame strategy with it. Pretty much he said he did it to get information. Which is wonderful. But I don't get his throwing it out there to catch people in a game that was marketed as more beginner friendly. The question was already posed by me as to what is best way to go about handling a lynch with absolutely no information. I don't get why he would say it. No one gets what he would say it. No one gets why he would chose to consciously put in an opinion then defend the opinion then change his opinion for no reason at all.

It just doesn't make any logical sense. And I'm confused. And I don't get why faking an opinion which was already brought up to create more discussion and to put pressure on himself is any kind of strategy. Only reason he wants pressure on himself is to take it off other people. And that's WEIRD.
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There is no endgame strategy. It was a simple ruse used to generate discussion which is really important on day since a lot of the time discussion becomes stagnant over nothing. It's good that you are bringing this up. This is the sort of response I would have liked. Push me on it. Challenge me. My opinion changed because no lynch is a bad choice on day 1. It leaves you with no information. Mathematically, you have 0% chance of lynching a mafia if you no lynch. Those odds go up if you lynch. The only you can win is if you lynch mafia. Thus, we need to lynch for a chance to win the game. I've argued this better elsewhere, so maybe if I have time I'll go find it.


But honestly, only people I see comfortable lynching right now are Ullar and Jalmont just because I feel like everyone is trying to in some way work with the group and they are kind of out in their own stream of consciousness. And cancerous because I feel like the best mafia "tell" people argued was that he wrote the summary. But that's so weak and I was about to do it that I still think it's arguing nothing.
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Working within the group is what the mafia try to do. No mafia purposefully puts themselves in a position of danger for fear that they will be lynched. As a mafia, who willingly does something like that? Maybe a really fucking good player, but that's not me right 8)


Outside mafia doesn't really have a lot to do with actual mafia, if you'd like to see how I truly play, you'd be better off reading NOCs that I've played in. I still have some time before I go to bed where I'm going to detail my list of reads.
 
So what the hell is the appropriate response to dealing with a possible uncooperative town member who has a 4 in 14 shot to be anti-town? (15 players - me)

I feel like if we keep him he will do more dumb stuff to distract us. I don't know if he is trustworthy enough to use a roll to help the town even if he is something important. Feels like a lost cause and I have reason to suspect he might be based on his actions and the words of both Von and rssp1.

If we vote him out and he is town, we lose trying to "reform" him and get the village on track. If he's a power roll, then we literally screw ourselves. However, that's the case with anybody we decide upon. No matter who we vote we run the risk of voting out a power roll in town. And we have already agreed a lynch is a best practice. And then again there is that 29% chance he's anti-village just by random chance.

I honestly feel like if we keep him we can't trust him and it would require added time to keep him and then deal with him. And that can be better spent going after other people. I feel like he is just going to be a drain on resources and it's best to knock him out and see what we got now than waste any more time on this case.

That's my stance and thoughts. Anyone who has a differing opinion or a comment on my thoughts or something I am missing, please respond to me. Like I said, I'm not just trying to win the game but to also get more information on how to play the game the best way. And I feel that leaving a wildcard in him poses no additional risk in knocking out a power roll and lets us know what we got up front to save valuable time later on.
 
Jalmont for your last part, a counterargument to that could be a point brought up by... someone (I forget who) who stated that mafia who know how mafia have traditionally played will try to do something different, meaning that a mafia can put themselves in a position of danger from which they can remove themselves (like your situation, although i'm not at all saying that makes you scummy); they may also do this, as you said, if they are "a really fucking good player."

Some rules/patterns of outside mafia do apply to actual mafia, and vice-versa (unless we're thinking of different "outside mafia"s, in which case whoops).
 
ButteredToast it might be worth noting that the game I was talking about was OC - I have no idea how Jalmont plays in NOC games, and if he does differently than he does in OC (I know I do, but as I said before, personal examples aren't the best representative of everything).
I also don't think policy lynching is a good idea - it's generally done when there's literally nothing else that can be done and/or when the player in question is either scum or someone who has proven that they aren't willing to help town.

IMO Jalmont's play in the game will be based on whether or not he wants to play it 100% seriously, which based on his recent responses seem to be the case.

Also do you know that it's 4 scum or are you just assuming that based off of predictions by other players?
 
ButteredToast said:
So what the hell is the appropriate response to dealing with a possible uncooperative town member who has a 4 in 14 shot to be anti-town? (15 players - me)
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You tell me. I doubt I'm really being that uncooperative but it's not my place to tell you how you should feel (or react for that matter).

I feel like if we keep him he will do more dumb stuff to distract us. I don't know if he is trustworthy enough to use a roll to help the town even if he is something important. Feels like a lost cause and I have reason to suspect he might be based on his actions and the words of both Von and rssp1.
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I'm sorry you feel that way but I think that if you move past that and look at my actual content you might be surprised to find that I'm actually providing good "content" in comparison to others.

If we vote him out and he is town, we lose trying to "reform" him and get the village on track. If he's a power roll, then we literally screw ourselves. However, that's the case with anybody we decide upon. No matter who we vote we run the risk of voting out a power roll in town. And we have already agreed a lynch is a best practice. And then again there is that 29% chance he's anti-village just by random chance.
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You aren't going to reform me, so if that's stopping you, don't let it.

I honestly feel like if we keep him we can't trust him and it would require added time to keep him and then deal with him. And that can be better spent going after other people. I feel like he is just going to be a drain on resources and it's best to knock him out and see what we got now than waste any more time on this case.
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Fair enough, but you learn more from dissenting opinions than if everyone just agrees with each other.

That's my stance and thoughts. Anyone who has a differing opinion or a comment on my thoughts or something I am missing, please respond to me. Like I said, I'm not just trying to win the game but to also get more information on how to play the game the best way. And I feel that leaving a wildcard in him poses no additional risk in knocking out a power roll and lets us know what we got up front to save valuable time later on.
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Good. You are doing a fantastic job for a beginner play. Don't stop.

rssp1 said:
Jalmont for your last part, a counterargument to that could be a point brought up by... someone (I forget who) who stated that mafia who know how mafia have traditionally played will try to do something different, meaning that a mafia can put themselves in a position of danger from which they can remove themselves (like your situation, although i'm not at all saying that makes you scummy); they may also do this, as you said, if they are "a really fucking good player."
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People like to make that case but I would be willing to bet that the actual odds of people doing that are very low. I mean, even I try to fit in as a mafia? I guess that doesn't mean much, but you have to be really ballsy to do something completely different for the sake that fucking up puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the mafia; not so much for the villager.

I think Serious Bananas is the only player who could qualify as "a really fucking good player" in this game if I'm honest but that's for another discussion.

Some rules/patterns of outside mafia do apply to actual mafia, and vice-versa (unless we're thinking of different "outside mafia"s, in which case whoops).
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For sure, but since in NOC people have to post it's easier to gather a sense of what their playstyle is like on how they posted in past games (which is a lot harder to do in outside mafia).
 
Jalmont said:
I don't think it's ok to treat other users like shit just because you think they are "retarded." Fine, tell that to me in a non-game related setting. When you have to bring it up in a game setting with no point but to be rude to another user then I will call you out. You don't get a free pass because just because it's passive aggressive. Leave personal shit outside of the game. If I can manage to do it, everyone else can too.
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I'm trying to keep you from getting mislynched. And this is the reaction.

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not saying this is what jalmont's doing, but i think that putting yourself in a difficult situation and then extracting yourself from it would be a good way to 'clean' yourself as the mafia in a NOC game, even if you become the prime target for an inspection, it would be difficult for the inspector to out you without also outing himself, so you sort of provide an advantage to the mafia either way

i'm also curious as to how butteredtoast arrived at this 4 in 15 are mafia number, did the hosts say something that i missed or are you basing this on some other source
 
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