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Metagame LC OM Megathread!
- Thread starter tazz
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I'm gonna nominate Mudkip, Surskit, and Mantyke for GOD RANK on the LC Monotype viability rankings. Tbh, nobody should argue with this, since they are the monogods and are generally amazing. Surskit sets Sticky Webs, Monokip sets rain, and monotyke sweeps, simple as that. With support from other good Pokemon they are unbeatable.
Also, if there isn't a council/TL already determined for LC STABmons, I think Pagoose would be good since he is the frontier brain for LC STABmons lol (if he wants to/whoever has to approve it does).
Also, if there isn't a council/TL already determined for LC STABmons, I think Pagoose would be good since he is the frontier brain for LC STABmons lol (if he wants to/whoever has to approve it does).
The reasoning for the suspect test on Fletchling;
Fletchling at +2 OHKOs every Fighting type, most Bug and, most Grass types. This heavily limits the viability of these types. Fighting has to take it out before it can get to +2, Grass can utilize Lileep, and bug has a couple Rock/Bug types which can beat it.
Heavily limiting types is much more concerning in monotype as having a balanced and fair metagame where any type chosen can be viable.
Fletchling at +2 OHKOs every Fighting type, most Bug and, most Grass types. This heavily limits the viability of these types. Fighting has to take it out before it can get to +2, Grass can utilize Lileep, and bug has a couple Rock/Bug types which can beat it.
Heavily limiting types is much more concerning in monotype as having a balanced and fair metagame where any type chosen can be viable.
Missy's a ghost, why is it unbanned on monopsychic??
I was being an ass for the sake of it, i assumed he meant monoghost for missy.
that being said, does monofight get meditite or what?
also on the subject of future suspects for these OMs, will LC BH follow the BH bans or what? I could see Chatter being quite a pain.
-ates should be discussed at some point as well. I mean Aerialte was banned in AAA, iunno if it would hold the same distinction. Pixilate / Refrigerate prolly arent as bad but iunno, what are others thoughts?
In AAA you have to consider that Fairy/Ground is perfect neutral coverage in LC bar Levitate Bronzor and Zubat, since we lack Fire/Flying types or Steel/Flying types. That's damn good coverage, considering that Bronzor is generally a poor choice and Zubat's, well, Zubat.
On the other hand, abuse of these abilities is much harder compared to Aerilate. Our faires generally aren't as offensive or have better abilities to run, and ice types aren't really all that common. Refrigerate is a way to actually get good physical ice moves though. In general it's more of a coverage augmentation, which isn't bad, but isn't as overwhelming as Free Brave Bird for every flying type ever, and hell Flying's a better coverage type compared to either Fairy or Ice too. There's obviously the chance they turn out to be too strong, but they doesn't seem nearly as good as Aerilate.
On the other hand, abuse of these abilities is much harder compared to Aerilate. Our faires generally aren't as offensive or have better abilities to run, and ice types aren't really all that common. Refrigerate is a way to actually get good physical ice moves though. In general it's more of a coverage augmentation, which isn't bad, but isn't as overwhelming as Free Brave Bird for every flying type ever, and hell Flying's a better coverage type compared to either Fairy or Ice too. There's obviously the chance they turn out to be too strong, but they doesn't seem nearly as good as Aerilate.
While Pixilate Drilburr has its use, Refrigerate (as pointed out by apt-get) gets around mons that Drilbur had trouble beating in the first place.
I'd recommend that LC BH doesn't take BH's list as religiously as those OM users want. Stuff like Skill Link and more are going to be insane because of LC's mechanics, and Chatter will certainly be ridiculous.
So this has been dead for a while - I spoke to tazz a couple of weeks ago, we decided that this should be a resource for the LC OM tour.
Currently in the LC OM Tour, confirmed metagames are
STABmons
AAA
Balanced Hackmons
LC Ubers without Scyther
LCUU (has own thread)
PGL LC (has own thread in Battle spot)
ADV LC (has own thread in RoA)
The risk of the OM tour is that the metagames aren't actually that accessible, so I want this thread to solve that issue, so I need some volunteers to help. I also have some tiering-related things to say:
don't ban stuff unless it's really obviously too broken (e.g. archen in aaa), or there's precedent for the normal other meta (e.g. chatter in STABmons). Try to follow stuff that the normal OM does, this is so that it remains accessible to the OM crowd (so no unreleased moves in stabmons)
What is needed:
-a prettier OP? - more defined sections and stuff. also links to useful posts (for example in the stabmons section, a link to unfixable's useful moves would be good)
-Links to LCUU, ADV LC and PGL LC in the OP.
-threatlists in the OP (NOT necessarily viability rankings). Just main threats that would sit around the A-C+ tier. Viability rankings are fine, but probably keep it rough since these metagames are unexplored, so not bothering with A+, A, A- for example.
-sample teams in the OP. this is quite important, since people might just give up on the tour if they have to build every week. Of course we don't want everybody to be using the same teams, so we'd need quit a few, try to get at least 10.
This is very important for STABmons, AAA and Balanced Hackmons, metagames which are really hard to get into, maybe some descriptions about the state of these metagames can be added.
ADV LC probably needs a few more sample teams in its thread, but otherwise it has very good resources. It also needs to sort out its banlist (diglett, meditite??) Luckily it has time to do this since this tour won't start till about July/August. Aerow Corporal Levi
LCUU's resources are pretty fine.
LC Ubers doesn't need tiering people obviously, and threats are pretty obvious. Just sample teams, so if anyone that was around in the sneasel era, that would be great.
Basically, lots of work to be done for STAB, AAA, and BH, and more sample teams needed for ADV, Ubers.
general tagging for people that might be able to help. sorry for annoying tags just need volunteers. tazz Melonz boo836 unfixable Corporal Levi Aerow trash Shrug Heysup Omastar42 Merritt
Currently in the LC OM Tour, confirmed metagames are
STABmons
AAA
Balanced Hackmons
LC Ubers without Scyther
LCUU (has own thread)
PGL LC (has own thread in Battle spot)
ADV LC (has own thread in RoA)
The risk of the OM tour is that the metagames aren't actually that accessible, so I want this thread to solve that issue, so I need some volunteers to help. I also have some tiering-related things to say:
don't ban stuff unless it's really obviously too broken (e.g. archen in aaa), or there's precedent for the normal other meta (e.g. chatter in STABmons). Try to follow stuff that the normal OM does, this is so that it remains accessible to the OM crowd (so no unreleased moves in stabmons)
What is needed:
-a prettier OP? - more defined sections and stuff. also links to useful posts (for example in the stabmons section, a link to unfixable's useful moves would be good)
-Links to LCUU, ADV LC and PGL LC in the OP.
-threatlists in the OP (NOT necessarily viability rankings). Just main threats that would sit around the A-C+ tier. Viability rankings are fine, but probably keep it rough since these metagames are unexplored, so not bothering with A+, A, A- for example.
-sample teams in the OP. this is quite important, since people might just give up on the tour if they have to build every week. Of course we don't want everybody to be using the same teams, so we'd need quit a few, try to get at least 10.
This is very important for STABmons, AAA and Balanced Hackmons, metagames which are really hard to get into, maybe some descriptions about the state of these metagames can be added.
ADV LC probably needs a few more sample teams in its thread, but otherwise it has very good resources. It also needs to sort out its banlist (diglett, meditite??) Luckily it has time to do this since this tour won't start till about July/August. Aerow Corporal Levi
LCUU's resources are pretty fine.
LC Ubers doesn't need tiering people obviously, and threats are pretty obvious. Just sample teams, so if anyone that was around in the sneasel era, that would be great.
Basically, lots of work to be done for STAB, AAA, and BH, and more sample teams needed for ADV, Ubers.
general tagging for people that might be able to help. sorry for annoying tags just need volunteers. tazz Melonz boo836 unfixable Corporal Levi Aerow trash Shrug Heysup Omastar42 Merritt
I for one would be uber hyped for LC Doubles, as it would combine the two best tiers
Also on a side note can we do LC Ubers without Sneasel too? It wasn't banned initially like Scyther but blarajan quickbanned it and I feel like the meta would be better without it. Of course, I didn't play the meta, but if sneasel is as garbage as it is in PGL LC then that might be nice
If we keep banning broken stuff in LC Ubers, then it will just become normal LC... Sneasel was annoying but it has enough checks that it isn't unbeatable, including priority from Timburr, Croagunk and Meditite, intimidate users like Scraggy, Snubbull, and Growlithe, and also 16+ speed scarfers such as mienfoo, larvesta, vulpix, pawniard, and other stuff like Swirlix, Spritzee, Makuhita. The only thing apart from Scyther which I think should be considered would be Swirlix tbh.
1) I think LC Ubers should free all mons (but not policy bans). Scyther is fucked but Sneasel is fucked too, it's not impossible to kill them (even though Eviolite makes Scyther insane whereas Sneasel negatively impacted)
2) I don't think PGL LC should be involved. We have LC Ubers to have that obscurity, but PGL LC for the most part has jack shit to do with LC.
3) what the actual fuck is a balanced hackmon?
2) I don't think PGL LC should be involved. We have LC Ubers to have that obscurity, but PGL LC for the most part has jack shit to do with LC.
3) what the actual fuck is a balanced hackmon?
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The other option we have is LC Doubles, which can replace PGL or something else. The metagame list is not set in stone.
As for LC Ubers, I spoke to Levi, who's actually played LC Ubers, and he claims the only thing that's too much is Swirlix, since everything else can be revenge killed, whilst Swirlix has 3 different sets, which can't be revenge killed by scarfers bar scarf sneasel, or sun tangela, and even they can't revenge CGCM. Scyther dropping to Ubers, and Swirlix dropping to anything goes seems the better situation atm
Swirlix is much easier to prepare for than many of the other Ubers in my experience (especially Scyther). Either way, my point still stands. There needs to be a clear reason to ban something from Ubers BEYOND being "hard to revenge".
I still dunno what a balanced hackmon is....
I still dunno what a balanced hackmon is....
In terms of LC Doubles, I've been trying to get it up, but Macle helpfully pointed out that Doubles already did it (somewhat). Their thread is pretty dead, but it needs to be worked out with them before it can be running in a solid thread here. Also, it'd be nice if it didn't die here...
Link, if you're interested in reading what's there: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-doubles-lc.3498745/
In regards to LC Ubers, I feel like Scyther should be tested for being allowed at the very least. I'm hesitant to ban stuff (I mean, come on, it's Ubers) but I can absolutely see how Swirlix is so incredibly cut above the rest. It's a damn good partner to Sneasel too, as long as you've also got a steel answer (Diglett's a decent partner, although the threat is more steel coverage than steel STAB).
Incidentally, should LC Ubers allow evasion?
Link, if you're interested in reading what's there: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-doubles-lc.3498745/
In regards to LC Ubers, I feel like Scyther should be tested for being allowed at the very least. I'm hesitant to ban stuff (I mean, come on, it's Ubers) but I can absolutely see how Swirlix is so incredibly cut above the rest. It's a damn good partner to Sneasel too, as long as you've also got a steel answer (Diglett's a decent partner, although the threat is more steel coverage than steel STAB).
Incidentally, should LC Ubers allow evasion?
What are some criteria for banning things from Ubers? We don't quite know yet, but here are some warning signs:
from chaos in the AG announcement thread.
I feel like scyther would fit under 'obviously a different power bracket' with 110/105 attacking stats and 70/80/80 bulk. That's adding the attack of Archen with a faster speed than diglett with better bulk than vullaby. There really isn't a lot besides scarfers with a rock move that can realistically check a bulky swords dance roost set. It's clearly just better than any other pokemon in LC Ubers, and way harder to stop than any others.
I feel swirlix probably comes under 'It is no fun to play or watch' since it's sets are just too hard to prepare for, you need multiple checks on a team and even then you might not be able to stop it. The fact that's it's barely manageable even with multiple checks on a team pushes swirlix over the edge. Belly Drum with the flexibility to run sub/protect/flamethrower in the final slot, along with CM that has access to surf/psychic/flamethrower and CGCM that has a spare move for coverage or aromatherapy or sub, just makes it fucking horrible to play against even if you carry checks.
Nothing else will be considered for a ban from ubers, but discussion on these 2 seems needed
- This Pokemon/ability/etc unreasonably raises the volatility of Ubers. Think Moody or OHKO spam.
- This Pokemon is ~unreasonably~ centralizing. Think 70%+ usage. Even Xerneas was (I think) ~45% usage.
- Related to the above point: This Pokemon is obviously in a different power bracket than most of the other Ubers. I argued earlier that M-Ray was in a different power bracket because it is the first ~800 BST Pokemon with a useful ability and unrestricted item.
- It is no fun to play or watch matches with this Pokemon/ability/etc (henceforth just Pokemon) allowed. Having this Pokemon in Ubers makes me want to play some other meta. I would be bored as fuck to watch a match with this Pokemon allowed. This is a subjective criterion, but an important one I think: if everyone hates Ubers, then why have it? It is our obligation in such a case to try to fix it.
from chaos in the AG announcement thread.
I feel like scyther would fit under 'obviously a different power bracket' with 110/105 attacking stats and 70/80/80 bulk. That's adding the attack of Archen with a faster speed than diglett with better bulk than vullaby. There really isn't a lot besides scarfers with a rock move that can realistically check a bulky swords dance roost set. It's clearly just better than any other pokemon in LC Ubers, and way harder to stop than any others.
I feel swirlix probably comes under 'It is no fun to play or watch' since it's sets are just too hard to prepare for, you need multiple checks on a team and even then you might not be able to stop it. The fact that's it's barely manageable even with multiple checks on a team pushes swirlix over the edge. Belly Drum with the flexibility to run sub/protect/flamethrower in the final slot, along with CM that has access to surf/psychic/flamethrower and CGCM that has a spare move for coverage or aromatherapy or sub, just makes it fucking horrible to play against even if you carry checks.
Nothing else will be considered for a ban from ubers, but discussion on these 2 seems needed
Balanced Hackmons is a tier where no Pokemon are banned, and there are minimal limits, although there ARE some, hence the balanced part.
- Every Pokemon can be used in any forme without having to use an ability/item. Not sure exactly how this applies to LC (sorry, never got too good at it :( ) but in regular BH, Aegislash-Shield can be used separately from Aegislash-Blade, and you can use Primal Groudon without Red Orb and Mega Gengar without Gengarite.
- Every Pokemon can learn any move. For example, you can have a Quiver Dance/Steam Eruption/Ice Beam/Roost Mantyke if you felt so inclined. NOTE: Assist is banned in regular BH, as with Primal Groudon calling Thousand Arrows, it was deemed broken and got the boot. I don't know if it is broken in LC BH (waaaaaay too early too deem if it is or not) so that should probably be discussed, although I would probably say keep it banned for simplicity's sake since regular BH deemed it to be too OP. OHKO Moves and Evasion Moves are also banned.
- Every Pokemon can have any ability. For example, you can have Turboblaze Abra. NOTE: Huge Power, Pure Power, Arena Trap, Shadow Tag, Wonder Guard, and Parental Bond are banned. You are also limited to one -ate user.
- Endless battle trolling is banned (via shit like Leppa Berry+Harvest, as well as annoying/hard-to-ban shitty gimmicks like Harvest+Skill Swap into Trace/Leppa Berry mons).
Imposter on a bulky Pokemon holding Eviolite is a great strategy, and a common one to stop set up sweepers--you get their stat boosts, with higher HP (usually, if you choose your mon correctly) and greater bulk (due to Eviolite). Thus, making your sweepers Imposter-proof is key. An example is this:
Honedge @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 SpA / 60 SpD / 212 Spe
Modest Nature
- Tail Glow
- King's Shield/Sludge Wave
- Secret Sword
- Judgment
You've got a set up sweeper here that gets stat boosts via Tail Glow/Speed Boost. If an Imposter comes in, it can do nothing, while you smack it with SE STAB Ghost Judgment (its Judgement is Normal-type). This probably isn't a good set in LC BH (and the EVs should obviously be changed, I just clicked what the Teambuilder said), I just wanted to showcase one of the most important things to remember when building for BH (keep your sweepers Imposter proof!!!).
Other stuff: There is still a limit of 4 moves maximum, level 100 (or I guess level 5 for LC), and the 510 EV limit remains as well (it used to be unlimited EVs, but now its just 510).
Pretty sure that's everything you need to know to get started n_n
I think we should nix Swirlix from the discussion if we want to have a serious one. It wasn't even talked about while Sneasel, Yanma, Tangela, etc were around and this metagame because it needs to set up on a Pokemon without the ability to OHKO it, outspeed it, paralyze it, burn it (for BD) etc. In LC Ubers it's going to be really hard to find time to set up with Pokemon that OHKO it around. CM sets are actually pretty manageable if you use Vulpix (good ppl used Roar) and BD sets you can pop in the face with Bullet Punches/have a steel-type (ff doesn't usually OHKO them without CM boosts). It's a good mon you can build around in regular OU and win relatively easily, but it's clearly not the same in the fast-paced metagames like Tangma, nevermind Sneasel and Scyther.
Scyther is no doubt worth discussing, but you do have to consider the 4x weakness. It's not a manageable Pokemon, but with Gligar, Ancient Power Tangela, HP Rock Yanma, any sort of Sneasel, you CAN revenge kill it / sweep past it, especially with Rocks up. I think it's one of those Pokemon that mostly everyone will use but you KNOW how to fend it off, you just need to actually do it.
As for the fun-factor, I think a lot of people want to play LC Ubers just to use these monsters, namely Scyther. When I think of "unfun" I think that's honestly just a lax word for "policy" like Dragon Rage.
Also BH is weird oml
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