Gastrodon is actually pretty good. It fulfils quite a different role to seismitoad and pert so you can't call it outclassed by them. It's best use is in stall where it works as a cune check and importantly a reuniclus check as it has access to clear smog. Running Toxic makes it an effective check to bulky waters in general. RowDog used to run a curse set which worked pretty well for him. It can also switch into Nidos with enough SpD. Gastro definitely has its niches, I think it should stay where it is in C.
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M2
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After some discussion with the viability council about many of the suggestions you guys have made as well as some of our own, we've decided to make the following changes (with included reasons):
from S to A+: Still the best bulky water in the tier, but the introduction of Sheer Force Feraligatr has given offensive teams a very good water resist to work with. In addition to that, the offensive teams that Suicune has been dominant against have been starting to hit harder and harder with the introduction of Mamoswine. Overall, it's stretched further by this metagame than the past, so it's no longer going to be kept in S rank.
from A+ to A: With the introduction of two offensive mons sitting right at 80 Speed, Nidoqueen has started to fall behind against offensive teams more and is hardly the metagame staple it used to be. There are also many other Florges checks so it isn't as necessary as it used to be. Still has the unique typing and bulk that let it function as a check against many offensive Pokemon such as Beedrill, Heracross, and Whimsicott, so it's good at A rank.
from A- to A: That enormous physical bulk on one of the faster offensive Pokemon in the tier has been becoming more useful as of late as it lets Cobalion check Mega Beedrill, Mega Aerodactyl, and weakened +1 Feraligatr. Its typing allows it to be one of the few faster Pokemon that doesn't fold to Mamoswine's Ice Shard and also lets it use Scarf Hydreigon as set-up bait. Its defensive checks have also been falling out of favor so this metagame is very favorable to Cobalion.
from A- to A: This thing initially got a huge boost with the rising of Jirachi, as offense lost one of their premier Normal-type resists. Tri Attack and Thunderbolt have extremely good neutral coverage on the tier, making it very annoying to switch into. It has huge bulk when boosted with Eviolite and backed by Recover it has become much more annoying to take out. Many different abilities to abuse with Trace. Overall deserving of the rise.
from B+ to A-: This was proposed by a lot of you and was definitely worthy of the rise with the departure of the faster Alakazam. Its good speed tier and giant movepool make it very customizable to teams.
at A+: Very good tool for offensive teams to break down balance teams. It has been a fantastic addition to the metagame due to its STAB Ice Shard letting it check literally all of the faster Megas once they've been appropriately weakened. Its lack of resists, lack of boosting moves and its average Speed tier are holding it back from completely ravaging this metagame, but it's definitely going to be a staple.
at A-: While not having as much of an impact as Mamoswine, Mandibuzz has a lot going for it in this tier with that enormous bulk in conjunction with its good movepool lets it support the team with Defog while having many cool attacking options such as Knock Off, Foul Play, U-turn, and Brave Bird. Its Stealth Rock weakness along and tendency to be too passive don't make it much of a metagame staple, so we've decided to throw it into A-.
We've definitely been hearing your guys' input so feel free to keep the suggestions and discussion going
We've definitely been hearing your guys' input so feel free to keep the suggestions and discussion going
C to A
I honestly do not understand how jolteon has so little rank, surpasses all the stats to heliolisk, besides that already have him immune to swith volt.
C to A
Heliolisk has a Water-immunity, as well as superior coverage to Jolteon, having Surf, Hyper Voice (which is good secondary STAB btw), Grass Knot and Focus Blast. Jolteon might have superior stats all across the board but honestly Heliolisk is far better in this tier.
Edit: Water-immunity is huge considering it makes Heliolisk one of the better Water-checks in the tier, healing itself whenever it switches in on Scald.
I honestly do not understand how jolteon has so little rank, surpasses all the stats to heliolisk, besides that already have him immune to swith volt.
C to A
As much as I love Jolteon (it was the star of my old XY UU team), it is definitely no Heliolisk. Heliolisk's main niche is its immunity to water attacks thanks to Dry Skin along with its plethora of coverage. Jolteon's only real niche right now is to outspeed the likes of Mega Pidgeot among other things while outspeeding some of the few slower base speed scarves in the game (like Modest Scarf Chandelure). Also the relevance of Ground types in the tier make Jolteon a liability as with its limited coverage you either have to lock yourself down into a move thanks to Specs, or you lose out on power from LO or maybe Expert Belt (Modest Expert Belt wasn't too bad when I tested it as a lure set). Especially now that Mamoswine is in the tier, Jolteon gets even more predictable as it is practically necessary to run HP Grass rather than the HP Grass or HP Ice, which in itself isn't bad considering Swampert in the tier, but it just makes it easier to manage since again it's more predictable.
Jolteon should stay C-rank imo, because while not the best thing in the tier, it still has its own niche in the metagame
Edit: sniped by Kreme
Going right up to A? at least go to C+ to B- To B+ ect. It has like 3 coverage moves to choose from and helio does everything so much betterI honestly do not understand how jolteon has so little rank, surpasses all the stats to heliolisk, besides that already have him immune to swith volt.
C to A
Literally horrible coverage, it's only niche over heliolisk is better stats. and it really isn't very powerful, besides i can say it always loses to mega aero is aero is mega'd beside a scarf set, and it cant do anything on weather either. helio can be on rain. basically very outclassed as a specially attacking electric type. though i could see it going to B-...I honestly do not understand how jolteon has so little rank, surpasses all the stats to heliolisk, besides that already have him immune to swith volt.
C to A
Ok but where is Blissey to B/B+? Pls, B- is a disgrace to the fat egg. Also umbreon to B+, should've been there already but now phys def deals with mamoswine, along with sd gatr mence krook [Insert non-fighting type here] and works well on stall and as a pivot for balance with good utility options. Spdef is still a solid set too.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 282-333 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Don't think PDef Umbreon checks SD Feraligatr. You have to sacrifice yourself in order to land the KO with Foul Play.
Don't think PDef Umbreon checks SD Feraligatr. You have to sacrifice yourself in order to land the KO with Foul Play.
It switches in, takes a +2 hit after rocks and 1hkos back after rocks, that seems like a solid check to me. Fares better than pory2 at least who doesn't 1hko and is 2hko'd in return- best it can do is twave and spam recover and pray for a full para within the 2-3 turns it takes gatr to kill it after.
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thats what a fucking check does
No, a check comes in for free and then beats it handily. A shaky-as-fuck check comes in for free at absolute max health and goes 1-1.
it's flippin 2015 and you still don't know that things work in varying degrees smh
A check that is that tremendously shaky doesn't deserve nor receive the same regard as a much more solid check like Alomomola. I'm not saying PDef Umbreon can't check Feraligatr, but it doesn't check +2 Gatr except under the most generous of circumstances, therefore, it is a garbage check.
That's literally the best you can hope for when it comes to a defensive sd gatr check lol. Nothing comes out of that matchup well off, I mean even phys def tangrowth has a 50% chance to die to a +2 ice punch after rocks.
Gatr is a really difficult Mon to check defensively but for fat teams it needs to be done, and umbreon is one of the few things that 1. Survives a +2 hit after rocks and 2. Actually does something besides phasing it out.
And how is alomo a solid check? It's ultimate set up bait for sub sets and it's 100% reliant on netting a burn.
Gatr is a really difficult Mon to check defensively but for fat teams it needs to be done, and umbreon is one of the few things that 1. Survives a +2 hit after rocks and 2. Actually does something besides phasing it out.
And how is alomo a solid check? It's ultimate set up bait for sub sets and it's 100% reliant on netting a burn.
Ok i am just going to slide in here and say that Pdef Umreon is indeed far better counter to gatr than Alomomola. And Alomomola is possibly one of the worse checks out there
0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 28 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 25-30 (7.8 - 9.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever Even the calc says "possibly the worst move ever." Any Substitue gatr(which is quite common) pretty much gives them the automatic win since Alomomola breaks a Sub in like 3 turns.
0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 28 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 25-30 (7.8 - 9.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever Even the calc says "possibly the worst move ever." Any Substitue gatr(which is quite common) pretty much gives them the automatic win since Alomomola breaks a Sub in like 3 turns.
My mistake, should have said Suicune.
Skank- "I mean even phys def tangrowth has a 50% chance to die to a +2 ice punch after rocks."
+2 252+ Atk Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 248-294 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
After Tangrowth kills with LeafStorm it switches and is at 50% health again. Better than Umbreon imo. But still pdef umbreon is great.
+2 252+ Atk Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 248-294 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
After Tangrowth kills with LeafStorm it switches and is at 50% health again. Better than Umbreon imo. But still pdef umbreon is great.
No water type reliant on scald burns is a reliable gatr check considering sub is so damn good frankly gatr is near impossible to counter shaky checks are pretty much all we have with gatr defensively and offensively it isn't much better for dd variants.
aight so as much as I respect your opinion I really disagree so we gon run this shit back.
1. Mega Sceptile is far from the best water type stopper in the tier. there are multiple other things that can stop water types from sweeping, as well as a plethora of offensive threats that can shut down water types without costing the user the team's mega slot. Whimsicott (which can also provide general support), Shaymin (substantially bulkier and also absorbs status), Rotom-C (who has gotten a hell of a lot better in recent months + can provide momentum), Roserade (who can provide spike support), and even Tangrowth (bulkier, regenerator, amazing movepool and versatility of sets) can do Sceptile's job of stopping water types without wasting away a mega slot.
2. Even if Suicune can't beat Sceptile with a +1 scald, calcs posted on page 21 show that Sceptile is binded into a lose/lose vs Suicune. If Giga Drain, Sceptile lacks the power to stop Suicune if it gets to +1. If running Leaf Storm, the Sceptile user renders themselves setup fodder for Suicune as long as the Suicune user Rests on the Leaf Storm. Additionally, some Cune variants run ice beam (subcm) that pick of Sceptile easily due to its bulk (or lack thereof)
3. Mandi breaks subs 100% of the time (0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Sceptile: 127-150 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO) and is hardly threatened by any of Sceptile's attacks (252 SpA Mega Sceptile Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 157-186 (37.1 - 43.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery).
4. The mega slot comes with extreme opportunity cost and should be a reason to re-evaluate where megas stand in terms of viability every few months. Mega Sceptile offers some unique traits, but a category of other UU Pokemon can fulfill the exact same role that Sceptile plays without robbing the user of its Mega Slot. If Mega Sceptile cannot bring something else to the table that uniquely seperates it from the other grass types in UU, then it deserves to be dropped to B.
Once again I have made myself look like an idiot. Well technically when you switch in and take rock damage on the turn ferg goes for sd, you get leftovers recovery making your health 94 percent making KO less likley. Considering that, umbreon may be better but regenerator gives great oppurtunity while umbreon may be low enough to never be able to heal back up after the hit.
Honestly, do you think that could go ou Feraligatr ? Have doesnt counters in uu as much in check but some ..
I really didn't get what you meant but Feraligatr has a bunch of offensives checks & one counter in Quagsire ( Maybe even Poliwrath with even Atk EVs to break Fera's Sub with Circle Throw, anyway ). Anyway, The VR Thread isn't the thread to talk about future suspects of the UU Tier, if you wanna do so, try mentionning it in the NP Thread, thank you.
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