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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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Not sure if Kingdra's still being discussed, but I don't like to use it in rain. Its offensive movepool is so poor that if the opponent resists Water, your only alternative is to use Outrage. And we all know how risky that move is. It's completely walled by Ferrothorn, which is a problem when half your team is going to be walled by it too, as well as Azumarill. It's a Pokemon that needs quite a bit of team support in addition to rain.
 
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Not sure if Kingdra's still being discussed, but I don't like to use it in rain. Its offensive movepool is so poor that if the opponent resists Water, your only alternative is to use Outrage. And we all know how risky that move is. It's completely walled by Ferrothorn, which is a problem when half your team is going to be walled by it too. It's a Pokemon that needs quite a bit of team support in addition to rain.

You can also use Dragon Pulse and Draco Meteor. Most Kingdra are fully special, because by using these attacks you dont have to split EVs. As far as being walled by Ferrothorn, any good rain team should have at east two answers to Ferrothorn. Besides, both Mega Swampert and Kabutops get Low Kick to hit Ferro.

And Specs Kingdra has a chance to 2HKO Ferrothorn with Hydro Pump after some prior damage (I think a layer of spikes and Stealth Rock damage).

Edit: Kabutops's 4MSS should not have an affect on Kingdra's ranking. If you are building a rain team, you are aware of what threatens your team. You will build with that in mind, using lures or double switches to break those threats. If you have that much trouble with bulky pokemon, rain can afford a slot to stallbreakers like mega heracross or manaphy.

Kingdra is also bar none the best swift swimmer for rain cores on non rain teams. It devastates offense with its great STABs and speed.

In stead of treating Kingdra as a wallbreaker, why not treat it for what it is: a sweeper that excels against offense and occasionally balance.

Edit 2: If you are using Ferrothorn on a rain team, which isnt a bad choice, it can often fit both spikes and stealth rock. not to mention that its not terribly hard to get 15 % prior damage on opposing ferrothorn.

By this point, we are going in circles. Yes, Kingdra is walled by several pokemon. But its not a wallbreaker and has an extremely high power level for a breaker/sweeper.
 
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You can also use Dragon Pulse and Draco Meteor. Most Kingdra are fully special, because by using these attacks you dont have to split EVs. As far as being walled by Ferrothorn, any good rain team should have at east two answers to Ferrothorn. Besides, both Mega Swampert and Kabutops get Low Kick to hit Ferro.

Kabutops has a massive case of 4MSS. It wants priority, dual STABS, Swords Dance, Rapid Spin and Low Kick. It's difficult to fit the latter onto it. Either Pokemon is forced to hit Ferrothorn on the switch, lest they be 1HKO'd by Power Whip variants.

Also, Spikes + Stealth Rock on a rain team is a bit unlikely.
 
Kabutops has a massive case of 4MSS. It wants priority, dual STABS, Swords Dance, Rapid Spin and Low Kick. It's difficult to fit the latter onto it.

Special Kingdra can add Chansey and AV Slowking to its list of counters.
Kabutops never runs Rapid Spin in OU, since its job is to sweep and clean under the couple rain turns. It's not coming in often enough to care about hazards, considering rain is such an offensive playstyle anyway.

You also didn't dispute Mega Swampert, to say nothing of other Mega options like Scizor, Heracross, or Manectric.

Also, the most common Kingdra set in OU is usually mixed LO. Chansey just needs some prior damage from hazards or blocking teammates, or to lose its Eviolite to an ill timed Knock Off. And AVSlowking just loses outright.

80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 231-274 (35.9 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Chansey in Rain: 347-409 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 211-250 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And unless you team has other reliable answers to Ferrothorn, Low Kick is going to take priority over SD (Kabutops is a bit frail on top of having limited rain time) or Aqua Jet (since more priority users should be dead before Kabutops sweeps, not to mention it checks Talonflame. And Ferrothorn is still taking a decent chunk considering a lack of reliable recovery.

252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 118-140 (33.5 - 39.7%) -- 87.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
Not sure if Kingdra's still being discussed, but I don't like to use it in rain. Its offensive movepool is so poor that if the opponent resists Water, your only alternative is to use Outrage. And we all know how risky that move is. It's completely walled by Ferrothorn, which is a problem when half your team is going to be walled by it too, as well as Azumarill. It's a Pokemon that needs quite a bit of team support in addition to rain.
Obviously it's going to be switching around a lot if it wants to wall your rain! jeez. Just because Kingdra has a shallow movepool doesn't make it weak, it's Water STAB is INSANE after Rain. I wouldn't say that Kabutops wants priority since it's under Rain with Swift Swim, but OK. Azumarill utilizes Superpower to hit Ferro a lot lol. AND Rain teams usually run megas like Heracross, Scizor, and Pinsir as a few examples to get rid of bulky grasses. Rain is a playstyle all in its own, so obviously it's gonna have some form of team support. It's only in like B+ or A-, it's not perfect like S lol.
 
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A-==>B+
Mega Pinsir is far from a bad Pokemon, but the current OU metagame is not in its favor. Several of its checks and counters have increased in both viability and usage which in turn decreases Mega Pinsir's already limited number of setup opportunities. Things such as Skarmory, Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie all can easily cut Mega Pinsir's sweep short and due to its 4x SR weakness, which is further compounded by its lack of recovery, Mega Pinsir will rarely get another chance to setup and sweep after it switches out. Because of these issues, Mega Pinsir requires quite a bit more support than nearly everything in A- Rank, making it more difficult to fit onto a team. In the current metagame, I find Talonflame to much better sweeper than pinsir as, despite its power loss, it has a larger amount of switch-in and setup opportunities due to its better typing and Roost, has an immunity to Will-O-Wisp, and has slightly more versatility as a sweeper. Overall, I feel Mega Pinsir is a bit underwhelming compared to a majority of A- rank and think that it fits much better with the pokemon in B+ rank.
 
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A-==>B+
Mega Pinsir is far from a bad Pokemon, but the current OU metagame is not in its favor. Several of its checks and counters have increased in both viability and usage which in turn decreases Mega Pinsir's already limited number of setup opportunities. Things such as Skarmory, Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie all can easily cut Mega Pinsir's sweep short and due to its 4x SR weakness, which is further compounded by its lack of recovery, Mega Pinsir will rarely get another chance to setup and sweep after it switches out. Because of these issues, Mega Pinsir requires quite a bit more support than nearly everything in A- Rank, making it more difficult to fit onto a team. In the current metagame, I find Talonflame to much better sweeper than pinsir as, despite its power loss, it has a larger amount of switch-in and setup opportunities due to its better typing and Roost, has an immunity to Will-O-Wisp, and has slightly more versatility as a sweeper. Overall, I feel Mega Pinsir is a bit underwhelming compared to a majority of A- rank and think that it fits much better with the pokemon in B+ rank.

You say that Mega Pinsir is underwhelming compared to most A- Rank Pokemon, but look at it from the reverse perspective; most Pokemon in B+ are vastly underwhelming compared to Mega Pinsir; just look at Mega Gallade, Dragonite, and Mamoswine, all of which would love to be able to pressure opposing builds as well as Mega Pinsir can. You say that Skarm / Mega Gross / Mega Diancie cut its sweep short, but it is your fault, not Pinsir's, if you are attempting to sweep with those checks still present, especially since two of those three cannot consistently come in on it. The whole point of a sweeper is to checkmate opposing teams when everything that can stop it is KOd or too weakened to do so, not attempt to checkmate and losing horribly. Mega Pinsir doesn't actually need as much as support as you say, as Pokemon like Volcarona, Weavile, Mega Slowbro, and Kyurem-B all require a good deal of support to be able to perform their roles as well, especially since the support that Mega Pinsir needs is not that difficult to provide. You say that the current OU metagame is not in its favor, but Mega Pinsir already dropped to A- for that reason, and I cannot see it in the same ranking as Breloom, Diggersby, and Dragonite, all of which are good Pokemon but lack the absurd pressure that Mega Pinsir can put on a broader number of playstyles. Therefore, I see no reason for Mega Pinsir to drop, and I nominate it to stay in A- Rank.
 
Im gonna agree with Alfalfa: while I would say Mega Pinsir is one of the weaker A- pokemon, it definitely doesnt belong in B+ alongside Dragonite and Mega Gallade. To be honest, I think Mega Pinsir is kinda unnderrated right now: its not easy for offensive and some balance teams to switch in on this things due to its fantastic flying/fighting coverage. You dont even need swords dance; substitute is a cool little toy that allows you to prevent status and revenge killing.
 
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Not sure if Kingdra's still being discussed, but I don't like to use it in rain. Its offensive movepool is so poor that if the opponent resists Water, your only alternative is to use Outrage. And we all know how risky that move is. It's completely walled by Ferrothorn, which is a problem when half your team is going to be walled by it too, as well as Azumarill. It's a Pokemon that needs quite a bit of team support in addition to rain.

I don't know where you're going by saying Kingdra is completely walled by Azumarill and Ferrothorn. It's most common set, the Choice Specs set that is, runs Scald. Actually, the mixed set runs Scald too. Azumarill and Ferrothorn really dislike Scald, and they do get blown back easily by repeated switch-ins to Hydro Pump. Kingdra is one of the best Swift Swimmers out there, and it can opt to go mixed to break past specially defensive Pokemon such as Chansey, and it has a great Speed tier, allowing it to outspeed all relevant Choice Scarf users in OU, such as Latios. I don't know where you're going by saying 'Kingdra mandates lots of support' when it's used as a wallbreaker, punching holes in the early- to mid-game for other Swift Swim sweepers such as Kabutops or Mega Swampert to clean up.

TL;DR Keep Kingdra in B+. Heck, I could argue for it to move up to A-, but I probably won't now.
 
Two Questions here!

1. Shouldn't the Post be #491 in the title lol, #492 is just some Manaphy logic.

2. Speaking of Manaphy logic, I am bad at using Manaphy so how does one use Manaphy again? Tail Glow or CM right now and with or without Rain Dance in the set? I tried it once and it was weird to use, so I just gave up on it.
 
Tail Glow and 3 attacks is generally the best set. The 3 attacks are generally more tailored from the team, but I enjoy using Scald / Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire as my set. Tail Glow + Rain Dance is also a viable set and beats stall easier though, but stall has been diminishing lately. Calm Mind is a cool set, but I can't touch too much on that because I don't have much experience using it. However, for future reference, use the Simple Questions, Simple Answer thread for such questions.
 
Two Questions here!

1. Shouldn't the Post be #491 in the title lol, #492 is just some Manaphy logic.

2. Speaking of Manaphy logic, I am bad at using Manaphy so how does one use Manaphy again? Tail Glow or CM right now and with or without Rain Dance in the set? I tried it once and it was weird to use, so I just gave up on it.
IMO TG+RD is its most effective set, though not its most common. The utility of an immunity to status is pretty big, and the power of a +3 rain-boosted Scald is nothing to be scoffed at. However, I assume the reason that the TG+3 attacks set is used more is due to the extra coverage, so really it just comes down to your team's makeup.
 
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Lol TG + RD is not its most effective set and definitely not the most common. TG + 3 attacks is so much better as it cuts down the amount of pokemon that can safely switch in on it by half due to extra coverage. It also has much more surprise value which is very important as shown by style in OST.
It is just me who finds it to be its most effective set. Hence the IMO. However, I understand what you're saying. The coverage that you get on TG+3 attacks is very valuable (and probably what pushes it over the edge to best set generally), but my playstyle tends to lean more towards the nature of the TG+RD set so there is bias on my end :].

Also I put what I was saying about commonness poorly in my original post. I have changed it from "if not its most common" to "though not its most common" as that is what I meant to say originally and I have just realised the way I put it was kinda unclear and not what I intended to say.
 
Best way to run Manaphy is with Damp Rock Politoed support and Tail Glow + Rest + Scald + Ice Beam. That said for most other teams the best set would in fact be Tail Glow + 3 attacks. You can pick between Scald/HP Fire/Ice Beam/Energy Ball. Ice Beam only hits Dragons but if you also run Clefable or something you can use Energy Ball for Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Gyarados, Rotom-W etc.

And there used to be a set that ran max HP for 101 Substitutes. It could setup on Chansey, beat it behind a Sub and still have a coverage move available, also beats Ferrothorn without Power Whip. Don't ever see it anymore though and I'm not saying that it's good or anything, just throwing it out there :p
 
Best way to run Manaphy is with Damp Rock Politoed support and Tail Glow + Rest + Scald + Ice Beam. That said for most other teams the best set would in fact be Tail Glow + 3 attacks. You can pick between Scald/HP Fire/Ice Beam/Energy Ball. Ice Beam only hits Dragons but if you also run Clefable or something you can use Energy Ball for Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Gyarados, Rotom-W etc.

And there used to be a set that ran max HP for 101 Substitutes. It could setup on Chansey, beat it behind a Sub and still have a coverage move available, also beats Ferrothorn without Power Whip. Don't ever see it anymore though and I'm not saying that it's good or anything, just throwing it out there :p
That's highly team dependant and doesn't break stall as well, TG 3 Attacks is probably its most used set with stuff like Scald TG Ice Beam HP Fire or Psychic or Energy Ball, there are fillers depending on what your team needs, tbh. While that set is decent all on its own I don't see it as 'best'.
 
While TG+RD is not the best set, it got a nice niche in checking opposing weather setters.
Against Tyranitar and Hippodown Manaphy can set up a Rain Dance for free, so Sand Rush Excadrill cannot revenge kill. Against YZard Mana can set up Rain on the turn Char goes mega, thereby weakening Solarbeam drastically. Note: This is if YZard is Modest, which it commonly is.

While I'm talking 'bout Manaphy, let me continue.
Manaphy got a nice matchup against many Stall, Bulky Offense and Balanced, and isn't dead weight to Hyper Offense either. For being an offensive mon, a 100/100/100 bulk is amazing, letting him set up against many weaker mons and sweep.
And look a it's movepool! Tail Glow, Scald, Surf, Energy Ball, HP Fire, Rain Dance, Psychic, Ice Beam and even Shadow Ball! Well, lets go over it whole: Tail Glow and Water STAB is obvious, but the rest of it's movepool can work as an double-edged sword. He has a serious case of 4MSS. Lacking a move makes him always hard-walled by something. In return, the opponent don't know which coverage move you pack until you reveal it.
He is also seriously hurt by Serperior, Raikou, M-Manetric and Thundurus, which the former two is rising in usage. Faster mons really hurts him in genera.
To sum it all up, Manaphy is one of the best (if not THE BEST) A+ mon right now, but he isn't made of S-rank material. Manaphy is kind of home right now, A+ is the ideal rankning for him.
 
I got asked earlier so might as well state it here. As far as replays go for something that you think should drop, which we'd like to see if you're trying to establish a raise as well and ones that aren't bad btw ~ _~, it still falls under the same idea they have to be decent replays just showing the Pokemon in a capable setting as far as build, meta, and player goes. More or less we'll know by seeing hard evidence in replays whether something should drop or raise. It'd help if it was actually you using it but if a replay by someone else proves a point better than by all means use those. Thanks.
 
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I'm back in OU baby

Yeah I agree with alakazam to B+ a lot for a multitude of reasons. The ability to trouble every playstyle in one slot is invaluable and not many other pokemon in the tier can do that. Offense gets smacked by it's amazing base 120 speed and near perfect coverage, not to mention the sash variants t-waving shit and revenging sweepers. Balance and stall both get creamed in a similar way to one another. Base 130spatk with LO and ridiculous coverage is brutal to switch into and that fourth move on zam's set always makes for some mind games in how these slower builds can deal with it. Magic guard is an invaluable trait which helps to crush these teams since, especially in this meta, they rely on hazards to pressure threats and take away their opportunities to hit the field and damage the defensive core. Along with this the fourth move in zam's moveset can be tailored accordingly and all are great options to rip apart these defensive builds. Encore and taunt can make mons easy set up bait for something else or to block healing so zam can break through either at that moment or later in the battle. Dazzling gleam can be used if the team is weaker to Msab and mandibuzz removing these "counters" from the game. Calm mind is more of a Mega alakazam thing but is certainly still viable on it's base form if need be since it isn't too fun to switch in your hippo thinking you're safe until it cm's on the switch and tears you apart. A noticeable effect of zam's presence in the tier has led to torn-t starting to run more speed to creep alakazam which shows me that this beast is becoming a more noticeable force in the metagame, more so than a lot of the B rank mons that it currently resides with.
Also: 34 | Alakazam | 199 | 5.51% | 55.28% | this is alakazam's usage in smogon tour overall not just one specific week. That is currently higher than diancie which is pretty ridiculous imo considering it wasn't even ou through a lot of the tour. So overall alakazam's ability to beat any playstyle gives it an easy time fitiing onto teams and is becoming a force in the metagame as seen by it's recent rise into the tier and it's usage in tours so Alakazam should rise to B+.
 
Controversial nomination but whatever

weavile.png

Weavile A- ---> A

Weavile is a great pokemon atm. Thanks to its great speed tier and powerful dual STABs, it can outspeed a lot of common mons and destroy them. SD Weavile in particular is a set that I've been experimenting with and I have used it to great success. SD Weavile can lure in pokemon such as azumarill and specially defensive skarmory and severely weaken them. Icicle crash + knock off + low kick is really nice super effective coverage and lots of pokemon that commonly try to switch into weavile either get screwed by the SD set or just hate losing their item in the cases of keldeo and azumarill. The increase in usage of pokemon such as landorus, garchomp, tornadus-t, all pokemon that are beaten by weavile, is quite beneficial for it.

Weavile is a great late game cleaner and its dual STABs are really annoying to switch into, while the SD set can lure in checks and counters and severely weaken them. Even though it is quite frail and has a weakness to SR, it should not be used to switch into attacks and weavile is going to be cleaning up a weakened team late game so SR weakness isn't too bad for it. Yes it's fraility makes it susceptible to priority, but wallbreaking power and late game cleaning far outweighs that, imo.

Can't get any good replays besides this shitty low ladder one but basically it just shows off that weavile is a great late game cleaner. (Had one against wcar where weavile singlehandedly took down like 4 mons but I can't find it :/)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-233290964
 
Is honchkrow a D rank material? I think he is outclassed by bisharp or other brids(even with moxie). I think he is usless then ludicolo and exploud.
 
Controversial nomination but whatever

weavile.png

Weavile A- ---> A

Weavile is a great pokemon atm. Thanks to its great speed tier and powerful dual STABs, it can outspeed a lot of common mons and destroy them. SD Weavile in particular is a set that I've been experimenting with and I have used it to great success. SD Weavile can lure in pokemon such as azumarill and specially defensive skarmory and severely weaken them. Icicle crash + knock off + low kick is really nice super effective coverage and lots of pokemon that commonly try to switch into weavile either get screwed by the SD set or just hate losing their item in the cases of keldeo and azumarill. The increase in usage of pokemon such as landorus, garchomp, tornadus-t, all pokemon that are beaten by weavile, is quite beneficial for it.

Weavile is a great late game cleaner and its dual STABs are really annoying to switch into, while the SD set can lure in checks and counters and severely weaken them. Even though it is quite frail and has a weakness to SR, it should not be used to switch into attacks and weavile is going to be cleaning up a weakened team late game so SR weakness isn't too bad for it. Yes it's fraility makes it susceptible to priority, but wallbreaking power and late game cleaning far outweighs that, imo.

Can't get any good replays besides this shitty low ladder one but basically it just shows off that weavile is a great late game cleaner. (Had one against wcar where weavile singlehandedly took down like 4 mons but I can't find it :/)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-233290964
Seconding this though I've mostly had success with Pursuit or Low Kick AoA Weavile instead of SD. I'd also like to add that Weavile benefits greatly from a number of spikes in usage on the part of pokemon that are weak to Weavile's dual STABs namely the rise of the 4x ice weak grounds (Lando, Garchomp and Gliscor) and the rise of psychic types including Mega and normal Zam, Celebi, Jirachi, Slowking and smogon's lovechild Reunclus as well as the continued promience of the Lati Twins.
 
The ability to run Low Kick or Pursuit in the last slot just goes to show how versatile Weavile is. It's probably just because Weavile is still relatively unprepared for, but it's definitely threatening enough to fit into A rank right now.

Charizard X should drop to A or A-. It's a really terrifying Pokemon that can thrash teams with only one Dragon Dance, but before it gets up that Dragon Dance, it's pretty mediocre in comparison to other Megas such as Diancie, Lopunny, and Metagross, which are fast and incredibly powerful right off the bat. I just really don't see it on the same level as other Megas which are more immediately threatening to every team archetype. Even as a cleaner, it still competes with Mega Gyarados, which, like Charizard X, thrashes stall, but unlike Mega Gyarados, it isn't as easy to set up because it doesn't have Intimidate. Being slower than Landorus-I before boosting is really annoying too.

Wouldn't mind seeing Clefable leave S rank either. Clefable can do a handful of things really well and beat some good Pokemon, but it also struggles with a lot of top-tier Pokemon, including the entirety of S rank barring itself. It's really hard to argue against Clefable because it's a perfectly great Pokemon that fits on all sorts of teams, but I just don't think it does any of the things it does well enough to fit in S rank. It also doesn't really "define the metagame" in my opinion, though it definitely has a large sway on it, which is why it's still easily an A+ rank Pokemon.
 
Charizard-X is absolutely A+ rank material, heck I'd even consider it for S rank if it wasn't for the crippling SR weakness. It just needs a couple of things like Hippowdon and Slowbro weakenes and it can usually just sweep teams completely. And while it's not quteas good in practice as it may seem due to Flare Blitz recoil making pivoting bewteen a Flare Blitz target and a Fire-weak Pokemon one way you can beat it, but not only do you need to predict perfectly, but the team becomes severly weakened as a result so XZard has still done its job.

As for XZard being medicore without a Dragon Dance, that isn't true at all. It has a fantastic typing which enables it to check and counter the likes of Scizor, Ferrothorn, YZard, Sableye, Thundurus, Rotom-W, Manectric, Celebi, Volcarona, Mew, Raikou, Jirachi and more, all the while hitting ridiculously hard. I'd argue that Mega Gyarados is far less threatening than Charizard without a boost : it's slower, weaker, has no recovery, and is much easier to check. And from experience, XZard can find a lot of opportunities to set up thanks to its access to recovery which is a huge advantage over MGyara. And this immediate offensive presence lets it weaken its swicthins more easily, which in turn enables it to more consistently put in work against teams it knows it cannot sweep than MGyara or, let's be honest here, Offnesive MAltaria who doesn't really wall that much with full offensive investement. So yeah, please don't drop XZard, it's a beast and well deserves A+ rank.
 
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Not sure if Kingdra's still being discussed, but I don't like to use it in rain. Its offensive movepool is so poor that if the opponent resists Water, your only alternative is to use Outrage. And we all know how risky that move is. It's completely walled by Ferrothorn, which is a problem when half your team is going to be walled by it too, as well as Azumarill. It's a Pokemon that needs quite a bit of team support in addition to rain.
LOL. Who cares if you moves are limited when your STABs already give you amazing coverage? Boy, only 3 viable pokemon resist both his STABs, and none of them has reliable recovery. It's not like kingdra will usually need those "desirable" coverage moves, simply hammering them early with hydro pump will weaken them for the next round so much they won't be able to switch!
This is like saying Aegislash or Mamoswine are bad because they have little coverage options
 
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