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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

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From an extremely reliable source I was told flying had a deadline to be nerfed, and that deadline was rushed unexpectedly to an earlier date. Those in the real power seats ,dubbed as "council", were pressed for time to give something (something being zapdos). I think it was unjust and silly, others stand behind this as if there is a anti-flying cult that is proclaiming zapdos as lucifer. Who really cares though? It is pokemon, moral highground comments are about as relevant as these authorities getting caught in illegal cyber activities, we just want a fun metagame to play and only really care if it gets messed up.

Point is you guys ,the common forum patrons, fight on this forum like it is your job, while there are a hidden few people, spearheaded by nani, that decide everything. These people do not relay anything back unless you ask nani himself (or maybe there is a monotype radio I'm not aware of leaking all the latest and greatest news). If you guys still aren't aware, I'm saying go waste your time somewhere else, like actually playing the meta you all are talking more than enough about.

I would almost advise you guys to pm each other then have one person post a community thought, and have everyone like the post instead of everyone throwing their well thought out 2 cents and fighting every other young adult. Maybe it would be more influential, and perhaps, something that would make me (and others) stop scrolling.

I told lots of people I would stop posting, but alas the charms of unnecessary drama draw me in oh so very easily.
 
hello guys... unlike ArVaDa ^ (btw I totally respect you as a player, and respect your opinion, but I have to disagree with you on this one) I want to believe that the council does take the input of the community on making desitions, soo yeah....
Now my thoughts on the supect/bans (I also believe that voting from all players that want to cast a vote in this forum should somehow influence the desition)

first I start with the zapdos Ban, lemme start by saying that first, I think that it's not a bad choice, but if the council really wanted to hurt flying from a defensive core standpoint they should've banned skarm (that thing is more toxic than zap, has sturdy and is THE BEST phisical wall in the entire game, sorry Maggron). But overall a good ban, even tho with flying being flying it has a plethora of other mons that can fill the role (although not quite as good as zap did it, but still good enough)

2.-Smooth rock suspect: See, the problem here is not excadrill being an amazing sweeper as it needs support and really sturdy phis walls screw it's field trip over teams, and as a lot of ppl said be4 me, IT HAS CHECKS (even thou shaky ones but it has, unlike Megagross). Also we should take into account the hippo (I've heard ppl say OML BAN THE HIPPO!!1!one)!, to which I have to say "lawl", yes I know is also one of the best phis walls, and also a good mixed wall that can tank SE moves from a lot of things it shouldn't take, but if you want to ban a thing for being bulky and setting sand aka doing its job (totally not broken) that's like saying: "let's ban mew/slowbro/swampert/torkoal/ferro/chansey/forretress/avalug/politoad/every other good defensive threat" is just nuts. The last point about the ground nerf I've heard of is the baning/suspect of Lando-I, and I think that here is where you're getting it right, yes I know it sounds just as stupid as the banning of hippo (which is the supidest thing the council can do) but hear me out, Lando-I destroys a lot phis walls that can threaten the drill, it has enough bulk to take a lot of neutral things (is not like ppl start running ice beam on everything, [and that was sarcasm btw] ) and it has only one true counter which is my beloved moonduck aka Cresselia (but I've seen some Landos carrying toxic but that's just eww and lawl) so yeah, Lando has amazing synergy with exca, also they can take out each others checks, unless you have the best mixed wall ever which iirc doesn't exist and they are both inmune to paralizys (not counting stun spore cuz accuracy and also lando carries sludge bomb for those pesky grass types and psy for those poison-grass, and the stupidly coveted glare) also has an amazing speed tier, and it can run knock-off and u-turn to hurt cress (considering that cress loves its lefties and under the sand doesn't gain all the HP with moonlight) finally it's just too strong for many walls to handle, so I say suspect/ban Lando-I, not ban excadrill, and lawl hippo. Smooth rock is not as OP as damp rock.

3.-Charizard-X suspect/ban: CHar-X is amazing by itself, and provided the right conditions (I've noticed that early game Char-X is much more usefull than mid-game, also it's an amazing late game cleaner) is completly unstopable, (yeah who lets it set up, right?) I've seen a lot of comments saying that you can't give it the chance, the point is all you're mentioning are hyper-offensive builds (like bug and fighting) but lets not forget that balanced and stall are also huge play styles in the meta (and sometimes those players simply can't stop it from setting up) I myself (laugh all you want) run a scarfed jirachi with draco meteor that takes like 50% of its HP (that was when I didn't used slowbro, I had to use cresselia to stop landorus, and more than one phis wall can't happen on a team, now things have changed and use slowbro as a mixed wall with ice beam lol, weird sets and adapting galore).

3.B.-here's where the point I previously made about zapdos comes back, yes, flying has a plethora of other mons to fill the roles of it (unless you're skarmory, which let's not kid ouserlves, nothing quite fills the role by even half of it),A lot of ppl say that Char-X is just gonna get replaced with another Mega dancer that resist bolt-beam, which is not quite true, the only two choices flying users have (the ones that have been discussed previously here) are Malaria (Mega Altaria) and Mega gyarados, which, lemme say MAltaria is weak to ice attacks (like I said b4, ice beam on everything) and also has two other weakness (poison and steel so Mega venu still shines against the flying mega), and gyarados (who doesn't like to mega 1st turn, as it likes to dance while non-mega) is weak to tbolt (4x non-mega, regular weakness after it, also has a 4x weakness to freeze-dry), and it has a weakness to fighting, fairy, electric, grass (again mega-venu killing them mega-flyings) so yeah, like I said: "flying has a plethora of mons to replace something (unless you're skarmory) but the fill-ins don't quite do the job the same way. Also both megas aren't as fast as CHar-X and their abilities are not as powerfull (as in mold breaker works mainly on sturdy, levitating and what not, which is nice but a niche and Pixilate only boost normal turned fairy moves, amazing but wall-able.)

So IMHO say that: Ban/at least suspect Mega Charizard X if you think its prescense its toxic for the meta. If not you can re-introduce him if you think its lack of prescense is unhealthy..

Tl;DR: Not Ban on excadrill nor hippo nor smooth rock, Ban on Lando-I and suspect/ban on Mega Charizard-X
sorry for long post and for grammar errors, english is not my first language, also I know I'm not the best player and that I can be biased, but I tried to be as objective as I could.
 
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ElectricApples said:
Ok are you guys lost? Why the hell isnt Charizard X banned on Flying, and MAYBE fire? Like seriously, this thing can sweep teams, such as Bug, Grass, Steel, Poison, Electric, ice, can damage fighting, and other types that i might not now get affected by Char X. You guys banned zapdos on flying, yet flying is still number 1. Isnt your job to balance the metagame? Why is flying still 1? Just ban Char x, dont even say u need it to counter ice because you will still have Charizard Y and Articuno. Heck, flying reks the crap out of electric. Isnt it supposed to be vice versa? They have Dragonite, gliscor, lando, Char x, Altaria, and thundy to rek electric. Remove the Char x and things will be a little better for electric, but still not a high chance of winning due to the rest of those flying pokemon. If electric cant beat flying, and sometimes struggles with certain water teams, then electric basically has no advantages in this metagame. All im asking to ban Char X so it wouldnt be guaranteed that flying beats electric 100% of the time.

Now, tell me what pokemon does bug have to counter Char x? Oh right, none. They may slow char x down, but they cant get rid of me completely and he will come back to destroy bug.

What does grass have for Char x? Ah right, nothing again.

What does steel have for Char x? Only thing i can think of is Heatran with balloon, assuming char x's only attacking moves are flare blitz/fire punch and EQ. If the heatran's balloon is gone, gg. Dont say scarf exca cuz ddance makes char x outspeed everything.

What does Electric have for char x? Stupidest response is usually "para it" HELLO THEY HAVE ARTICUNO/TOGEKISS HEAL BELL WHAT THE HELL DO I DO NOW

What does Ice do to Char x? Avalugg can "stall"(sike) it maybe but it doesnt stop char x completely. Same deal with bug.

What does fighting have for Char x? I personally dont know anything about fighting, but once char x has 2 dances up, its gg.

Same deal with all the other types that i dont know about. Why isnt he banned yet? You want to balance this metagame yet you don't even ban the broken pokemon, yeah ok that makes perfect sense.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 402-474 (106.9 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Cradily's are usually specially defensive, so im not gonna calc physical defensive. Yep, cradily can eat up a flare blitz real good.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Shuckle: 166-196 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is assuming cradily is physical defensive which i doubt it is. Also, Charizard can just keep setting up Ddances and sweep, or just outright kill the shuckle.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Wow very bulky. Also, this assumes physical defensive mega saur, and only Char X at +1. Remember, Char X can just keep setting up on other pokemon or something.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 444-524 (132.9 - 156.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Blah blah blah sturdy whirlwind, but like i said, that does nothing to Char X as he will come back with revenge and sweep. Also, dont forget flying has Skarm as well just in case excadrill shows up.


+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 360-426 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Nope, gg ice. Avalugg cant even do anything back to Char X anyway because Roost, Ddance, Flare Blitz, EQ is the usual set and it will just keep taking hits and roosting and killing just like how it sweeps every type i listed.

+1 252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 360-424 (89.7 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Again, lanturn does nothing back to Char x. Dont give me that bs para arguement cuz like i said, heal bell exists and char x will come back with revenge and sweep.

Also, if you're wondering why i didnt calc rotom-w, its because he does nothing to char x even tho char x does nothing back. Char x is just gonna outstall Rotom's hydro pump PP's by keep roosting. 16 PP>8 PP. Therefore, rotom does nothing to Char X.

Again, there are many other types out there that get rekt by char x, but these are the only ones i know.

tl;dr Char x is too broken for this metagame and needs an instant ban
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LMFAO, I LOVE YOU!
 
ArVaDa- said:
Point is you guys ,the common forum patrons, fight on this forum like it is your job, while there are a hidden few people, spearheaded by nani, that decide everything. These people do not relay anything back unless you ask nani himself (or maybe there is a monotype radio I'm not aware of leaking all the latest and greatest news). If you guys still aren't aware, I'm saying go waste your time somewhere else, like actually playing the meta you all are talking more than enough about.

I would almost advise you guys to pm each other then have one person post a community thought, and have everyone like the post instead of everyone throwing their well thought out 2 cents and fighting every other young adult. Maybe it would be more influential, and perhaps, something that would make me (and others) stop scrolling.
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" If you guys still aren't aware, I'm saying go waste your time somewhere else, like actually playing the meta you all are talking more than enough about. " . You said.

If we weren't playing we wouldn't have the experience nor the rights to even begin complaining.

If we weren't complaining about this we would have never gotten to enjoy playing this ''Pokemon Game'' .

Also, you could have chosen to not replay, and stay out of this "Drama" , and yet you did step in, and got yourself involved :/
 
OmniaX said:
" If you guys still aren't aware, I'm saying go waste your time somewhere else, like actually playing the meta you all are talking more than enough about. " . You said.

If we weren't playing we wouldn't have the experience nor the rights to even begin complaining.

If we weren't complaining about this we would have never gotten to enjoy playing this ''Pokemon Game'' .

Also, you could have chosen to not replay, and stay out of this "Drama" , and yet you did step in, and got yourself involved :/
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Just making a comment, and I did choose to stay out, but everyone fighting is somehow alluring and wanting to add to it is more fun than watching others do the same thing. I would still advise you to stay away from here and just pm nani what you think, seems to do more lmao.
 
We've to stop wanting bans now.
The meta is good at the moment, why are we still complaining?
Just because, the most of time, we enjoy to keep play our favorite teams and don't think about new possibilities...
 
Fírnen said:
We've to stop wanting bans now.
The meta is good at the moment, why are we still complaining?
Just because, the most of time, we enjoy to keep play our favorite teams and don't think about new possibilities...
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About 85% of this chat has agreed that Ground needs a nerf.

The meta is not balanced atm :/
 
Alright so I know that I don't normally post in this discussion, but I've been seeing a lot of smack against the Monotype staff in their part in this, and while I can understand the frustration, this isn't something done randomly. While Nani Man may be busy with his school and that's one of the major reasons why things take a while, it is not to say that these decisions are uninformed and randomly thought out. You guys could honestly ask any of the staff what they think about things and what steps are being taken. Just calling out shots doesn't help one way or the other. I've been more than happy to oblige requests about what I think about these things from a staff position (although the few people who do ask me know that I'm usually a neutral party on most bans/suspects).

Anyway to the main point of this: the main concerns in the current discussion revolve around MonoFlying still, because people are still arguing over Zapdos, and then people still arguing over Mega Charizard X. These are understandable and I think the Zapdos issue could have been handled better with the community, but as some probably understand there was a deadline: namely Monotype Premier League. While you guys were justified in that the Zapdos ban seemed to come out of left field, this has been a topic discussed by the staff, room, forums for arguably the longest time even prior the the Greninja and Mega Metagross ban. If you want to know some of the other solutions thought about and then decided weren't the best from the staff I'll list them:
  • Genie Clause: This was probably the first one argued over. Essentially it was a clause that would have made it possible to only run one Genie. Original reason behind this was to dismantle the original generic core of Thundurus and Landorus (either forms). This was decided it would not have a deep enough impact for obvious reasons, and most of the staff almost immediately disagreed with it which led to even more serious discussions.
    • Legendary Clause: This was an extension of the Genie Clause argued over after the original idea was immediately shut down.The clause would only allow one However, this too was also put down especially since it would essentially restrict players in their teambuilding, and still not have a strong enough impact. MonoFlying has way too many options to the point where even with just one legendary (namely Zapdos), nothing has changed. MonoFlying teams wouldn't even have looked like it had a nerf as although you wouldn't see Thundurus or Landorus as much, you still have Gliscor and your other potential megas to cover this. Flying wouldn't have taken that much of a hit with this as the defensive core is untouched, and without the other legendaries, you could either improve the defensive core or simply pick a different offensive option.
  • Limit to 3 OU: Literally this clause would be a limit of 3 OU Pokemon. Okay this is probably the one that completely contradicts what's been going on in Monotype for a while. One of the things about Monotype is that we've progressively started moving away from OU and tying ourselves down back to the tier is just backpedaling. Also tier usage can vary every months and is no way healthy for a stable metagame. This was probably shut down the fastest out of all the things discussed.
  • Non-Mega Flying ban: A ban that would prevent players from using any Flying type mega that changed types in their mega form (Charizard X, Mega Altaria, Mega Gyarados). This actually looked plausible on paper as this would target both potential offensive and defensive synergy, yet this kind of got shafted by its innate complexity and the fact people would start to question Mega Aggron on Rock which isn't broken at all. This ban's aim would be to prevent people from hiding their weaknesses behind Megas that lose their Flying typing like Mega Charizard and Mega Altaria being resistant to Electric, Mega Gyara and Mega Alt neutral to Rock, and Mega Gyara and Mega X being neutral to Ice. These megas pretty much were a hot topic of discussion and rather than just the only Mega Charizard X ban only, this would limit the other options as well forcing people to use Mega Charizard Y, MegaDactyl, or Mega Pidgeot. Maybe this could have been an ideal solution as this takes care of both of Mega X and Mega Altaria (Mega Gyara getting kind of shafted but oh well in this case).
  • Skarmdos: A complex ban that would limit the player to having either Skarmory or Zapdos. Not nearly as complex as the other bans and it directly influences Flying's premier defensive core. This was probably the most favorable of all the clauses looked at, but as some people note it would be just a way of hiding the fact that we were banning Zapdos. Most people conclude that there would only be a small portion of the community that would sacrifice Skarmory on their teams as without it you are prone to sweeps from things like Azumarill since Azumarill can beat Gliscor and Mandibuzz. Which ultimately led to the current clause we have now:
    • Zapdos ban: A ban that would simply ban Zapdos from MonoFlying. It is more straightforward than the complexity of the non-mega Flying ban and the Skarmdos ban. Also the original thinking behind this was that with the removal of an integral part to the defensive core, people would hopefully choose to go towards:
      • an offensive playstyle while using more offensive pivots to make plays than rather simply click buttons
      • a defensive playstye forcing the user to use a more defensive mega to make up the gap lost by Zapdos meaning there would be a loss in an offensive pressure
      • choose a mon to replace Zapdos which while still making a strong team, would not be nearly as strong than with Zapdos
As I said before I'm pretty neutral to most things, but I'm still relatively well informed. Maybe we could have chosen a different approach, but again there was a deadline called MonoPL. The Zapdos ban was the least complex of all these brought up and it was closer towards what most of the people favored which was the Skarmdos solution. The Non-Mega Flying ban still looked interesting but eh you guys can mull over that.

The only thing I have to say is that the staff actually is looking into a Ground nerf. Some of the staff have posted here, or at least posted thoughts in the room. If you want to talk to staff about it, don't be afraid to ask. If you end up harassing staff about decisions, then you'll obviously be ignored. Hopefully the new discussion thread comes up soon so we can start the next one on hopefully on a better tone.

Thank you scpinion and Anttya for making sure I got everything covered. Hope this was enlightening for some of you guys!
 
Sae Sae said:
Alright so I know that I don't normally post in this discussion, but I've been seeing a lot of smack against the Monotype staff in their part in this, and while I can understand the frustration, this isn't something done randomly. While Nani Man may be busy with his school and that's one of the major reasons why things take a while, it is not to say that these decisions are uninformed and randomly thought out. You guys could honestly ask any of the staff what they think about things and what steps are being taken. Just calling out shots doesn't help one way or the other. I've been more than happy to oblige requests about what I think about these things from a staff position (although the few people who do ask me know that I'm usually a neutral party on most bans/suspects).

Anyway to the main point of this: the main concerns in the current discussion revolve around MonoFlying still, because people are still arguing over Zapdos, and then people still arguing over Mega Charizard X. These are understandable and I think the Zapdos issue could have been handled better with the community, but as some probably understand there was a deadline: namely Monotype Premier League. While you guys were justified in that the Zapdos ban seemed to come out of left field, this has been a topic discussed by the staff, room, forums for arguably the longest time even prior the the Greninja and Mega Metagross ban. If you want to know some of the other solutions thought about and then decided weren't the best from the staff I'll list them:
  • Genie Clause: This was probably the first one argued over. Essentially it was a clause that would have made it possible to only run one Genie. Original reason behind this was to dismantle the original generic core of Thundurus and Landorus (either forms). This was decided it would not have a deep enough impact for obvious reasons, and most of the staff almost immediately disagreed with it which led to even more serious discussions.
    • Legendary Clause: This was an extension of the Genie Clause argued over after the original idea was immediately shut down.The clause would only allow one However, this too was also put down especially since it would essentially restrict players in their teambuilding, and still not have a strong enough impact. MonoFlying has way too many options to the point where even with just one legendary (namely Zapdos), nothing has changed. MonoFlying teams wouldn't even have looked like it had a nerf as although you wouldn't see Thundurus or Landorus as much, you still have Gliscor and your other potential megas to cover this. Flying wouldn't have taken that much of a hit with this as the defensive core is untouched, and without the other legendaries, you could either improve the defensive core or simply pick a different offensive option.
  • Limit to 3 OU: Literally this clause would be a limit of 3 OU Pokemon. Okay this is probably the one that completely contradicts what's been going on in Monotype for a while. One of the things about Monotype is that we've progressively started moving away from OU and tying ourselves down back to the tier is just backpedaling. Also tier usage can vary every months and is no way healthy for a stable metagame. This was probably shut down the fastest out of all the things discussed.
  • Non-Mega Flying ban: A ban that would prevent players from using any Flying type mega that changed types in their mega form (Charizard X, Mega Altaria, Mega Gyarados). This actually looked plausible on paper as this would target both potential offensive and defensive synergy, yet this kind of got shafted by its innate complexity and the fact people would start to question Mega Aggron on Rock which isn't broken at all. This ban's aim would be to prevent people from hiding their weaknesses behind Megas that lose their Flying typing like Mega Charizard and Mega Altaria being resistant to Electric, Mega Gyara and Mega Alt neutral to Rock, and Mega Gyara and Mega X being neutral to Ice. These megas pretty much were a hot topic of discussion and rather than just the only Mega Charizard X ban only, this would limit the other options as well forcing people to use Mega Charizard Y, MegaDactyl, or Mega Pidgeot. Maybe this could have been an ideal solution as this takes care of both of Mega X and Mega Altaria (Mega Gyara getting kind of shafted but oh well in this case).
  • Skarmdos: A complex ban that would limit the player to having either Skarmory or Zapdos. Not nearly as complex as the other bans and it directly influences Flying's premier defensive core. This was probably the most favorable of all the clauses looked at, but as some people note it would be just a way of hiding the fact that we were banning Zapdos. Most people conclude that there would only be a small portion of the community that would sacrifice Skarmory on their teams as without it you are prone to sweeps from things like Azumarill since Azumarill can beat Gliscor and Mandibuzz. Which ultimately led to the current clause we have now:
    • Zapdos ban: A ban that would simply ban Zapdos from MonoFlying. It is more straightforward than the complexity of the non-mega Flying ban and the Skarmdos ban. Also the original thinking behind this was that with the removal of an integral part to the defensive core, people would hopefully choose to go towards:
      • an offensive playstyle while using more offensive pivots to make plays than rather simply click buttons
      • a defensive playstye forcing the user to use a more defensive mega to make up the gap lost by Zapdos meaning there would be a loss in an offensive pressure
      • choose a mon to replace Zapdos which while still making a strong team, would not be nearly as strong than with Zapdos
As I said before I'm pretty neutral to most things, but I'm still relatively well informed. Maybe we could have chosen a different approach, but again there was a deadline called MonoPL. The Zapdos ban was the least complex of all these brought up and it was closer towards what most of the people favored which was the Skarmdos solution. The Non-Mega Flying ban still looked interesting but eh you guys can mull over that.

The only thing I have to say is that the staff actually is looking into a Ground nerf. Some of the staff have posted here, or at least posted thoughts in the room. If you want to talk to staff about it, don't be afraid to ask. If you end up harassing staff about decisions, then you'll obviously be ignored. Hopefully the new discussion thread comes up soon so we can start the next one on hopefully on a better tone.

Thank you scpinion and Anttya for making sure I got everything covered. Hope this was enlightening for some of you guys!
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Now that it's proven to yall that Mono Staff are actually doing something about the metagame ( Which IMO was kind of obvious. )
Because if it was completely up to one person nobody would have played this tier. Biased or Unbiased reasoning for every ban, can not be done by one person.

The final verdict does come from Nani, but that is only after, as Sae mentioned, a long time and a long discussion thinking of everything possiblility, to not make a ban too drastic.

Thank you, Sae Sae for sharing this with us, I do have one request though:

I'm not trying to insult nor attack you, but I do, and probably the rest of this community, wants to know of those things that are being discussed.

We want to help and share our opinions on as much of those topics as possible, isn't that what the forums are about? Especially this thread?

Anyway what I'm actually asking is this:

Everytime the Staff Convo comes up with an idea of a complex ban of somekind, for example the Genie Clause or the SkarmDos Limitation , share them with us, on this or the next thread, so it doesn't come as a suprise the next time and for the sake of the community never thinking the bans are being done for biased reasons, or w/o any consultation.
 
Also support the idea of the mega flying ban. It's a tricky approach, not only because of mega aggron but also because we don't really know what megas are coming out in the next generation and a ban like that is kinda shortsighted.

It could work if it's limited and tailored towards a flying nerf, but on the counter argument, there is need for consistency... so it's still kinda iffy

From the list of the options presented by the staff, zapdos is the most logical and easiest to choose from and from what ominax is saying,it would have been nice if those options were presented to the community before the ban. Maybe through interaction we could have all come up with a better option or not. Still, it would have made the zapdos pill easier to swallow.

And finally, I'd like to apologize for my part in giving the staff stick for the way the zapdos ban was handled. I get the prompt deadline was a key factor but there's a pattern where people don't speak out against the popular players or the higher auth, even if they don't agree with what's going on. The real discussion on what went down before the zapdos ban has been posted and it's also clear that a banning method like that did not sit well with the community. I think we can all move on from here.
 
Alexis Breeze said:
I actually liked the Mega Flying ban...
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SaNeski said:
Also support the idea of the mega flying ban. It's a tricky approach, not only because of mega aggron but also because we don't really know what megas are coming out in the next generation and a ban like that is kinda shortsighted.

It could work if it's limited and tailored towards a flying nerf, but on the counter argument, there is need for consistency... so it's still kinda iffy

From the list of the options presented by the staff, zapdos is the most logical and easiest to choose from and from what ominax is saying,it would have been nice if those options were presented to the community before the ban. Maybe through interaction we could have all come up with a better option or not. Still, it would have made the zapdos pill easier to swallow.

And finally, I'd like to apologize for my part in giving the staff stick for the way the zapdos ban was handled. I get the prompt deadline was a key factor but there's a pattern where people don't speak out against the popular players or the higher auth, even if they don't agree with what's going on. The real discussion on what went down before the zapdos ban has been posted and it's also clear that a banning method like that did not sit well with the community. I think we can all move on from here.
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Pretty sure that the Mega Flying Ban is not going to happen, nor is it up for discussion. The council decided to ban Zapdos, and tbh, that's that (I also think that this was probably the best, most simple form of action rather than banning 3 viable NON-BROKEN Megas).
 
1) Zapdos wasn't broken either. It was more about team sinergy and defensive core.

2) Those Megas would only be banned on Flying. You would have been welcome to use them in Fire, Water, Dragon.
 
Alexis Breeze said:
1) Zapdos wasn't broken either. It was more about team sinergy and defensive core.

2) Those Megas would only be banned on Flying. You would have been welcome to use them in Fire, Water, Dragon.
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1) Yes I understand this, I've said this before. I never said Zapdos was broken (in fact I've said the opposite multiple times). I said it was the best, simplest, most effective option for a ban, and that I will support the council on this ban.
2) Yes I realize this too. You seem to think I am an idiot, I assure you I am not. This is simply going too far. MAYBE banning one would have been fine, but banning all three is too much, and Zapdos was banned instead. None need a ban at all.

Let's go back to discussing Smooth Rock now >.<
 
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It isn't smack talk, it is keeping those in charge (still unnamed) accountable for what happens.

When I see your post, I say great, I am glad there is a group of people that is thinking of ways to nerf types as they should be when a problem arises, and doing a decent job at that. What I personally would have liked to have seen, was an effort to keep us, the community you people are the staff of, well informed about these things. Why was it impossible to show us those clauses in, I dunno, February (or when they came)?

I'm sure we could ask you guys anything, but if we don't know what is even being discussed, how can we? Do you staff members also prefer 1 on 1 conversation over telling the entire population what is going on? It just doesn't make sense. Furthermore, while it is up to us, the readers and or players of the community to ask, never once was I encouraged to ask members of the staff what their opinions are, nor do you guys speak your opinions in chat very regularly. The chat also isn't very productive, as mentioned by any staff member I have asked, sometimes I'm even discouraged to talk about recent bans because it is deemed unruly behavior.

I couldn't care less about any of the bans, I'm just tired of this forum being a riot net with a some good ideas, then a few select people deliberate about what is said and what they think they should do. Talk to us. Even if you are met with fire, it doesn't matter what we think. What disappoints me is that there shouldn't be any surprises when something gets banned. When things get banned you guys are met with a massive shitstorm and just mute the flaming opposition, we should know what is probably going to happen a week in advance and say okay, accept reality. Currently, I have to ask everyone and their grandma to know what is going on.

Sae Sae, I dont need a response, just for my voice to be heard.
 
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I used to be mostly in favor of a Smooth Rock ban, but the more I think about it, the more I think it might not be enough. Yes, it will nerf Ground, but losing 3 turns of sand might not do that much. At this point I'm leaning in favor of waiting for OU's Landorus-I suspect to come to a conclusion. Then we can use their findings to make our own decision on Landorus, whether that means keeping it or banning it. We don't want to make any immediate changes to the metagame anyway, considering MonoPL is still going on for the next couple weeks.

EDIT:
ArVaDa- said:
It isn't smack talk, it is keeping those in charge (still unnamed) accountable for what happens.

When I see your post, I say great, I am glad there is a group of people that is thinking of ways to nerf types as they should be when a problem arises, and doing a decent job at that. What I personally would have liked to have seen, was an effort to keep us, the community you people are the staff of, well informed about these things. Why was it impossible to show us those clauses in, I dunno, February (or when they came)?

I'm sure we could ask you guys anything, but if we don't know what is even being discussed, how can we? Do you staff members also prefer 1 on 1 conversation over telling the entire population what is going on? It just doesn't make sense. Furthermore, while it is up to us, the readers and or players of the community to ask, never once was I encouraged to ask members of the staff what their opinions are, nor do you guys speak your opinions in chat very regularly. The chat also isn't very productive, as mentioned by any staff member I have asked, sometimes I'm even discouraged to talk about recent bans because it is deemed unruly behavior.

I couldn't care less about any of the bans, I'm just tired of this forum being a riot net with a some good ideas, then a few select people deliberate about what is said and what they think they should do. Talk to us. Even if you are met with fire, it doesn't matter what we think. What disappoints me is that there shouldn't be any surprises when something gets banned. When things get banned you guys are met with a massive shitstorm and just mute the flaming opposition, we should know what is probably going to happen a week in advance and say okay, accept reality. Currently, I have to ask everyone and their grandma to know what is going on.

Sae Sae, I dont need a response, just for my voice to be heard.
Click to expand...
I am not one of the staff members who is part of this "council" everyone keeps talking about, nor do I really care if I am. I'm fine having the same amount of influence in this discussion as any regular user, but I'll gladly defend them and their actions.
Think about it, no matter what they're going to do, they will get shit for it. There will always be some jerk who decided the pokemon that was banned was his favorite pokemon so he's going to try to make everyone's lives miserable because of it. Even if the "council" disclosed every single idea they ever thought about and was 100% transparent, at least some people will hate the conclusion and give them a hard time for it.
I agree with the majority of people here on the Zapdos ban. It was probably the correct course of action, but it wasn't handled as well as it could have been. It was too sudden, but there were reasons for that. I also admit that a little more transparency would be preferred over keeping everything under wraps (which is why I'm so appreciative to Sae Sae for explaining everything in his post), but there are certain times when making decisions quietly amongst the higher ups is simply a better idea.
It's a fact that decisions are made faster when you only have a few dedicated and knowledgable individuals to consult. When you have 100 people all spouting their opinions as if their word should be law and half of them have barely played 10 monotype battles in their lives, the discussion gets cluttered, confusing, and overly complicated. When something needs to get done, I have no problem with them keeping the discussion amongst the higher-ups. When there's not a huge rush, letting the community discuss the options would be preferred.
 
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Acast said:
I used to be mostly in favor of a Smooth Rock ban, but the more I think about it, the more I think it might not be enough. Yes, it will nerf Ground, but losing 3 turns of sand might not do that much. At this point I'm leaning in favor of waiting for OU's Landorus-I suspect to come to a conclusion. Then we can use their findings to make our own decision on Landorus, whether that means keeping it or banning it. We don't want to make any immediate changes to the metagame anyway, considering MonoPL is still going on for the next couple weeks.

EDIT:

I am not one of the staff members who is part of this "council" everyone keeps talking about, nor do I really care if I am. I'm fine having the same amount of influence in this discussion as any regular user, but I'll gladly defend them and their actions.
Think about it, no matter what they're going to do, they will get shit for it. There will always be some jerk who decided the pokemon that was banned was his favorite pokemon so he's going to try to make everyone's lives miserable because of it. Even if the "council" disclosed every single idea they ever thought about and was 100% transparent, at least some people will hate the conclusion and give them a hard time for it.
I agree with the majority of people here on the Zapdos ban. It was probably the correct course of action, but it wasn't handled as well as it could have been. It was too sudden, but there were reasons for that. I also admit that a little more transparency would be preferred over keeping everything under wraps (which is why I'm so appreciative to Sae Sae for explaining everything in his post), but there are certain times when making decisions quietly amongst the higher ups is simply a better idea.
It's a fact that decisions are made faster when you only have a few dedicated and knowledgable individuals to consult. When you have 100 people all spouting their opinions as if their word should be law and half of them have barely played 10 monotype battles in their lives, the discussion gets cluttered, confusing, and overly complicated. When something needs to get done, I have no problem with them keeping the discussion amongst the higher-ups. When there's not a huge rush, letting the community discuss the options would be preferred.
Click to expand...

You may be surprised you restated what I said. We are on the exact same page, however I do not agree with:

"When something needs to get done, I have no problem with them keeping the discussion amongst the higher-ups."

When it comes to pokemon, I don't see a reason, including monopl, to halt or speed up something like a ban. Bans should happen because they are necessary and should exists outside clean desires (like having zapdos banned the entire way through monopl or not). Otherwise, yeah, great, I'm glad someone agrees with me. Just shed some light on us at your convenience friends in charge, we will always be here... waiting... ;-;

EDIT: What if somehow we decided lando-i definitely needs to be banned, are we going to wait for monopl to finish? I just don't think that is the way to go, if it existed before it is clean, from here on out no go, should it happen anyways.

You guys know how nani posts why things are banned after they are banned? Is it too much to ask to have an outlook post midway, by sae or nani or somebody, to discuss how things are looking and why, for something like greninja or zapdos or what you are deliberating now when it comes?
 
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ArVaDa- said:
You may be surprised you restated what I said. We are on the exact same page, however I do not agree with:

"When something needs to get done, I have no problem with them keeping the discussion amongst the higher-ups. When there's not a huge rush, letting the community discuss the options would be preferred."

When it comes to pokemon, I don't see a reason, including monopl, to halt or speed up something like a ban. Bans should happen because they are necessary and should exists outside clean desires (like having zapdos banned the entire way through monopl or not). Otherwise, yeah, great, I'm glad someone agrees with me. Just shed some light on us at your convenience friends in charge, we will always be here... waiting... ;-;

EDIT: What if somehow we decided lando-i definitely needs to be banned, are we going to wait for monopl to finish? I just don't think that is the way to go, if it existed before it is clean, from here on out no go, should it happen anyways.
Click to expand...
As I was typing out my reply, I did find myself sympathizing with your opinion more and more. So yes, we are somewhat on the same page. However, I do disagree regarding the MonoPL. The Monotype Premier League is no less serious than the ladder is. If I'm going to be really critical, they're both just contests for useless internet points, so one of them can wait a week for the other to finish up. It's not ideal to force a decision or delay a decision due to MonoPL, but it's not all that big of a deal either. As long as it gets done, no harm no foul. Just think about how long we waited for Kyurem-W and Shaymin-Sky to get banned. 2 weeks is nothing in comparison. Not to mention, our current metagame is arguably the most balanced monotype has been since the start of Gen 6, so I don't believe there is an urgent need to make a decision, but that may be just me.
 
Acast said:
As I was typing out my reply, I did find myself sympathizing with your opinion more and more. So yes, we are somewhat on the same page. However, I do disagree regarding the MonoPL. The Monotype Premier League is no less serious than the ladder is. If I'm going to be really critical, they're both just contests for useless internet points, so one of them can wait a week for the other to finish up. It's not ideal to force a decision or delay a decision due to MonoPL, but it's not all that big of a deal either. As long as it gets done, no harm no foul. Just think about how long we waited for Kyurem-W and Shaymin-Sky to get banned. 2 weeks is nothing in comparison. Not to mention, our current metagame is arguably the most balanced monotype has been since the start of Gen 6, so I don't believe there is an urgent need to make a decision, but that may be just me.
Click to expand...

Same page man. No rush at all, make good decisions. If a good decision to ban lando-i occurred, I don't see why it can't be banned during monopl, thats all. Good chat imo.
 
Just chiming in on MonoPL. If something is deemed truly broken in the next 2 weeks, and is banned, then we will adapt to it. There is plenty of precedent for a tournament adapting to an updated ban list mid-competition.

The rush for a Flying nerf and MonoPL was because the m-Meta and Greninja bans were happening. These nerfed Psychic, Water, Dark and Steel (4 of the top ~6 types) without doing anything to address the type that was clearly dominating the metagame. I didn't want all the ORAS matches to be flying vs flying b/c it was just better than everything else.

In the end, I'm confident we are playing in the most balanced metagame in some time. I know this is the best it has been since I've been an active member of the community (early XY). Do you guys disagree with this assessment of the current Monotype metagame?

As for Lando-i... I need to see some seriously strong arguments on why that should be banned from ground in order to support it. Lando-i in the OU environment (where its versatility really shines) is very different from the special attacker we know on Ground teams.
 
Hello guys, as I've seen the need to post useless math, I've taken advantage of the damage calc and wasted hours of my life, calculating the actual damage that Lando can do to the 8 more used types and the most common 6 mons and it's more generic spreads.

for calcs I'm using:
Lando with earthpower, sludgewave, psychic and focus miss, 93% of them uses LO, timid 252 spA, 4 spdef and 252 speed.

first off psy
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 460-541 (134.5 - 158.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
all the popular tini sets don't run spdef, and lando outspeeds

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
slowbro also doesn't run any spdef evs and it does hits it hard back doing aprox 70%, but it gets killed, even with regen

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 165-195 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
mew can take every hit and recover with softboiled and wait for wil-o-burn to kill it. 1st check

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 250-294 (89.9 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

and

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 276-325 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

we know lando is faster, so it's actually a coint toss, but if both live the first hit, we know that lando is gonna
be really weakened.

252+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 193-228 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and lando can't do anything back, and meloeta can stop excadrill if it lands a focus blast, but meloetta deffinetly can't
survive both of them

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 261-308 (98.4 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
and last but not least is also a coin toss to see if medicham can survive an ep, and i can kill it with ice punch.

now: bug
BUG:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 218-257 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and
252+ SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 244-288 (76.4 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
SO considering that Volc doesn't have any QD up, Lando kills it, but again it really gets hurt and can be easily revenge
killed

Gensect: 1v1 outspeeds and OHKOs with ice beam, and lando can't OHko hasty genect, doing something about 90%

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 320-377 (106.3 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and hera can't do anything in return.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 274-324 (79.8 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but scizor 2hkos with priority BP that does over 50%

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Galvantula: 341-403 (121.3 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
but galvantula is a lead and has sash so I think it can take ep, set up webs, and hit back hard with Hp ice (even tho
35% galv uses that move)

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 175-207 (64.5 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but mega pinsir is faster, can take a hit, do over 90% with return and killit next turn with quick attack.

SO bug has many ways to counter the genie

I'm not gonna use flying for this excersice cuz lando can't really do much on flying, so yay! one less type...

now fighting

FIghting:

252 SpA Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 292-344 (91.5 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Keldeo outspeeds and it has a chance to OHKO, if not:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 333-393 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

so coin toss...

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 178-210 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
terrakion outspeeds but can't do much damage back
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 499-588 (154.4 - 182%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 603-712 (205.8 - 243%) -- guaranteed OHKO
but the monkey has endeavor and outspeeds, but if sand is up, then that won't work.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gallade: 203-239 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but gallade-M outspeeds and it has to pray to 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 150-177 (47 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO

sashed brellom can take a hit(unless sand or rocks which is realtively hard for fighting to do),spore and spam bullet seed.

AV conkeldur takes any hit (psychic does around 75%) and OHKOs back with ice punch

not gonna do ground nor water (the first one cuz is just who's more gimmicky and the latter
because water ROFL.

but I'm gonna do steel and normal, and that should cover like half the meta.

Normal:
Chansey: ROFL, carefull with excadrill tho

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 241-285 (75.5 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but after that attack lando kills it with any move.

porygon 2, even phis defensive por-2 takes a hit and OHKOS with ice beam

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Diggersby: 282-333 (90.6 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
and banded return from adamant diggersby does around 60%
also focus miss kills the rabbit.

MEga lopp outspeeds and kills with ice punch

and steel
Steel:

Heatran gets OHkoed by ep, unless ballon which:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 281-333 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Skarm:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 270-318 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but can stall it with roost and praying for a focus miss, if the landorus-I is smart than predict roost and ep and GG skarm

scizor, unlike banded scizor, the mega doesn't 2HKO with bullet punch, but it gets 2HKOed by epower
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Scizor: 226-266 (65.8 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 647-764 (179.2 - 211.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
exca can do just half with iron head and hope for flinch and 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 356-421 (101.1 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
if relaxed ferro it takes the hit, and if it lands a power whip lando will lose over 40%

bisharp dies to earth power and focus blast, but it can 2HKO with sucker punch if sash (85.5% chance to 2HKO)
same with non hp ice magnezone.

and last:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 530-624 (165.1 - 194.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

in conclusion half the metagame has a chance to stop Lando-I, the problem is that these calcs are based on 1v1 and generic sets, also remember that is not lando alone the one putting the work, is the convo of everything on generic ground, so have that in mind, this post is just to help every1 have a better POV of what lando can/can't do, totally unbiased, if you want it, I can post what lando does to the other half of the meta later, thxs for reading this. Have a nice day/night :D
 
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KannaVZ said:
Hello guys, as I've seen the need to post useless math, I've taken advantage of the damage calc and wasted hours of my life, calculating the actual damage that Lando can do to the 8 more used types and the most common 6 mons and it's more generic spreads.

for calcs I'm using:
Lando with earthpower, sludgewave, psychic and focus miss, 93% of them uses LO, timid 252 spA, 4 spdef and 252 speed.

first off psy
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 460-541 (134.5 - 158.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
all the popular tini sets don't run spdef, and lando outspeeds

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
slowbro also doesn't run any spdef evs and it does hits it hard back doing aprox 70%, but it gets killed, even with regen

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 165-195 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
mew can take every hit and recover with softboiled and wait for wil-o-burn to kill it. 1st check

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 250-294 (89.9 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

and

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 276-325 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

we know lando is faster, so it's actually a coint toss, but if both live the first hit, we know that lando is gonna
be really weakened.

252+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 193-228 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and lando can't do anything back, and meloeta can stop excadrill if it lands a focus blast, but meloetta deffinetly can't
survive both of them

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 261-308 (98.4 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
and last but not least is also a coin toss to see if medicham can survive an ep, and i can kill it with ice punch.

now: bug
BUG:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 218-257 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and
252+ SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 244-288 (76.4 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
SO considering that Volc doesn't have any QD up, Lando kills it, but again it really gets hurt and can be easily revenge
killed

Gensect: 1v1 outspeeds and OHKOs with ice beam, and lando can't OHko hasty genect, doing something about 90%

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 320-377 (106.3 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and hera can't do anything in return.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 274-324 (79.8 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but scizor 2hkos with priority BP that does over 50%

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Galvantula: 341-403 (121.3 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
but galvantula is a lead and has sash so I think it can take ep, set up webs, and hit back hard with Hp ice (even tho
35% galv uses that move)

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 175-207 (64.5 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but mega pinsir is faster, can take a hit, do over 90% with return and killit next turn with quick attack.

SO bug has many ways to counter the genie

I'm not gonna use flying for this excersice cuz lando can't really do much on flying, so yay! one less type...

now fighting

FIghting:

252 SpA Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 292-344 (91.5 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Keldeo outspeeds and it has a chance to OHKO, if not:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 333-393 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

so coin toss...

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 178-210 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
terrakion outspeeds but can't do much damage back
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 499-588 (154.4 - 182%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 603-712 (205.8 - 243%) -- guaranteed OHKO
but the monkey has endeavor and outspeeds, but if sand is up, then that won't work.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gallade: 203-239 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but gallade-M outspeeds and it has to pray to 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 150-177 (47 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO

sashed brellom can take a hit(unless sand or rocks which is realtively hard for fighting to do),spore and spam bullet seed.

AV conkeldur takes any hit (psychic does around 75%) and OHKOs back with ice punch

not gonna do ground nor water (the first one cuz is just who's more gimmicky and the latter
because water ROFL.

but I'm gonna do steel and normal, and that should cover like half the meta.

Normal:
Chansey: ROFL, carefull with excadrill tho

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 241-285 (75.5 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but after that attack lando kills it with any move.

porygon 2, even phis defensive por-2 takes a hit and OHKOS with ice beam

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Diggersby: 282-333 (90.6 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
and banded return from adamant diggersby does around 60%
also focus miss kills the rabbit.

MEga lopp outspeeds and kills with ice punch

and steel
Steel:

Heatran gets OHkoed by ep, unless ballon which:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 281-333 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Skarm:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 270-318 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but can stall it with roost and praying for a focus miss, if the landorus-I is smart than predict roost and ep and GG skarm

scizor, unlike banded scizor, the mega doesn't 2HKO with bullet punch, but it gets 2HKOed by epower
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Scizor: 226-266 (65.8 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 647-764 (179.2 - 211.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
exca can do just half with iron head and hope for flinch and 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 356-421 (101.1 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
if relaxed ferro it takes the hit, and if it lands a power whip lando will lose over 40%

bisharp dies to earth power and focus blast, but it can 2HKO with sucker punch if sash (85.5% chance to 2HKO)
same with non hp ice magnezone.

and last:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 530-624 (165.1 - 194.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

in conclusion half the metagame has a chance to stop Lando-I, the problem is that these calcs are based on 1v1 and generic sets, also remember that is not lando alone the one putting the work, is the convo of everything on generic ground, so have that in mind, this post is just to help every1 have a better POV of what lando can/can't do, totally unbiased, if you want it, I can post what lando does to the other half of the meta later, thxs for reading this. Have a nice day/night :D
Click to expand...
These calcs are very useful, and for the most part show that lando's pretty hard to switch into: Most of the answers here are either revenge killers or chansey and there's only one type that gets chansey <_<
Moreover, there's a number of other types that struggle with lando. Just to quickly go through them:
Rock isn't switching in easily. Things like aqua tail aero or something can revenge kill and even check if they switch in on an earth power, but given the earth power + focus blast combo you're not going to find a counter here.
Ice is another type that struggles here. You can try to play around the focus blast using froslass and get scarf kyu-b in on an earth power or something, but it's going to be tough especially if rocks are up.
Fairy doesn't like this matchup, given sludge wave. Klefki can come in on a sludge wave, get up both screens, then die, however magnet rise klefki is very uncommon in monotype and landorus can often stall out the screens by spamming sludge wave. And klefki's certainly a long way away from checking it, given the lack of damage it does in return. Even banded Azu fails to OHKO with aqua jet, and goes down to a sludge wave.
Poison goes straight down to the combo of psychic and earth power. Your best bet is probably getting scarf drapion in on a psychic and hitting it with ice fang or pursuit trapping it, but having to run scarf drapion just for this isn't exactly great.
Grass doesn't enjoy Lando's coverage moves, with Sludge Wave hitting the majority of its mons very hard while Focus Blast takes care of Ferrothorn and Cradily while Lando also has Psychic for Mega Venu.
Fire has few options to deal with the threat as well, with Zard Y being 2HKO'd 90% of the time by sludge wave and everything else being hit hard by earth power.

So yeah, there's a very strong case for Landorus-I being very powerful. The counter-point to this, however, is that Landorus is a wallbreaker, so you can't expect it to have a whole load of switch-ins. Pretty much every team here can answer it if they get the right pokemon in as it comes in, or else can revenge kill it, which is how you'd expect to deal with a wallbreaker.
 
Well, Here are my opinions on the matter at hand:
Ground: While yes, in the past couple of months I have seen Ground rise in usage in the metagame quite a bit, and destroying most Monotypes with Smooth rock+Sand rush. Ice, Fairy, Rock, and Poison is what struggles most with it the most. Although with smooth rock gone, who's to say that wouldn't happen anyways? 5 turns of sand is enough to break the core's of those types on its own, and sand can easily be restored to finish the job. If you were going to nerf ground to help types like that, it wouldn't be so much of a nerf, but delaying sweeps against certain types a bit.
Now lets focus a bit more on excadrill. People argue that with sand up it's a complete monster that can barley be stopped and I agree with these statements. But with 110/60/65 Bulk it's really hard to come in on anything. You have to predict really well to bring it in right so that you take no damage, or sac something and then bring it in right after. Another thing is Excadrill in sand is a check to threats that ground wouldn't even be able to deal with. Mixed infernape, thundurus, Kyruem on dragon teams. Also, Excadrill can be walled UNLESS gravity is up, which takes some prediction if you know what your doing. 1 wrong switch and you can lose your Excadrill, or your Lando by trying to set this up.
We ban things that centralize the meta fully to where its too much, I believe people are making too much of a big deal about sand rush as a whole, and are trying to destroy a really balanced type, one of the most balanced types in the game. After The Greninja, Metagross, and Zapdos ban from their respective types, I feel as a Monotype Player and a part of the community that the meta is fine at this moment of time, and nothing really dominants anything else as badly anymore. With this, I'm going against the ban of smooth rock or a nerf to ground as a whole.
 
I am literally yet to read any reasonable argument on banning Lando-i that isn't "it's being suspected in OU" or "some types don't have a switchin".

The first argument is more a matter of our tiering policy, that we no longer use OU's banlist nor use their suspects to advocate our own. In thinking of reasoning for why something should be a potential suspect, you should pretend OU as a whole doesn't exist, and focus merely on it's prowess in Monotype, which conveniently enough brings me on to the second argument.

This is Monotype, if there was ever a type that had a switchin for everything, it'd be broken as all hell and would see incredible amounts of usage, in fact I'd go as far to say that it's a good thing for Monotype that no such type exists because otherwise it'd be a very boring and one dimensional metagame. Even so, it's difficult to find a type outside of types that are already weak to Ground that actually have issue switching into this. If your argument is that Steel or Fire can't switch into this(they can anyway but lets ignore that) then what difference will banning it make? Will we ban the other things that can click EQ / Rock Slide and not have a switchin from these types? Forgive my exaggeration but I feel the point needed to come across because I'm not really seeing this argument tbh.

My argument against a Landorus ban is that bans should be done in high moderation, when needed rather than whenever possible. I also feel the principle behind any ban should be aimed at slight nerfs if possible, rather than dramatic nerfs. Removing Landorus from Ground would devastate the type, I don't really care what anyone says, Nidoking is not at all an adequate replacement and I feel not only would you not be addressing the possible issue of Ground if it is deemed broken in the metagame, you'd be destroying it's viability as a type entirely and further establishing a line between good types and bad types.

Also why is there nothing on how good Psychic is at the moment? It has incredible variety in team builds, more than enough offensive / defensive options to sweep / wall the metagame, it's bad matchups are in low demand due to the types themselves being bad and it is just in general, a very low risk / high reward type to ladder with currently. This isn't even mentioning the Baton Pass Psychic going around which is basically an autowin against any team not sufficiently prepared for it in the hands of a decent player. Food for thought.
 
KannaVZ said:
Hello guys, as I've seen the need to post useless math, I've taken advantage of the damage calc and wasted hours of my life, calculating the actual damage that Lando can do to the 8 more used types and the most common 6 mons and it's more generic spreads.

for calcs I'm using:
Lando with earthpower, sludgewave, psychic and focus miss, 93% of them uses LO, timid 252 spA, 4 spdef and 252 speed.

first off psy
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 460-541 (134.5 - 158.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
all the popular tini sets don't run spdef, and lando outspeeds

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
slowbro also doesn't run any spdef evs and it does hits it hard back doing aprox 70%, but it gets killed, even with regen

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 165-195 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
mew can take every hit and recover with softboiled and wait for wil-o-burn to kill it. 1st check

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 250-294 (89.9 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

and

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 276-325 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

we know lando is faster, so it's actually a coint toss, but if both live the first hit, we know that lando is gonna
be really weakened.

252+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 193-228 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and lando can't do anything back, and meloeta can stop excadrill if it lands a focus blast, but meloetta deffinetly can't
survive both of them

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 261-308 (98.4 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
and last but not least is also a coin toss to see if medicham can survive an ep, and i can kill it with ice punch.

now: bug
BUG:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 218-257 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and
252+ SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 244-288 (76.4 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
SO considering that Volc doesn't have any QD up, Lando kills it, but again it really gets hurt and can be easily revenge
killed

Gensect: 1v1 outspeeds and OHKOs with ice beam, and lando can't OHko hasty genect, doing something about 90%

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 320-377 (106.3 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and hera can't do anything in return.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 274-324 (79.8 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but scizor 2hkos with priority BP that does over 50%

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Galvantula: 341-403 (121.3 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
but galvantula is a lead and has sash so I think it can take ep, set up webs, and hit back hard with Hp ice (even tho
35% galv uses that move)

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 175-207 (64.5 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but mega pinsir is faster, can take a hit, do over 90% with return and killit next turn with quick attack.

SO bug has many ways to counter the genie

I'm not gonna use flying for this excersice cuz lando can't really do much on flying, so yay! one less type...

now fighting

FIghting:

252 SpA Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 292-344 (91.5 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Keldeo outspeeds and it has a chance to OHKO, if not:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 333-393 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

so coin toss...

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 178-210 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
terrakion outspeeds but can't do much damage back
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 499-588 (154.4 - 182%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 603-712 (205.8 - 243%) -- guaranteed OHKO
but the monkey has endeavor and outspeeds, but if sand is up, then that won't work.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gallade: 203-239 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but gallade-M outspeeds and it has to pray to 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 150-177 (47 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO

sashed brellom can take a hit(unless sand or rocks which is realtively hard for fighting to do),spore and spam bullet seed.

AV conkeldur takes any hit (psychic does around 75%) and OHKOs back with ice punch

not gonna do ground nor water (the first one cuz is just who's more gimmicky and the latter
because water ROFL.

but I'm gonna do steel and normal, and that should cover like half the meta.

Normal:
Chansey: ROFL, carefull with excadrill tho

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 241-285 (75.5 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but after that attack lando kills it with any move.

porygon 2, even phis defensive por-2 takes a hit and OHKOS with ice beam

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Diggersby: 282-333 (90.6 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
and banded return from adamant diggersby does around 60%
also focus miss kills the rabbit.

MEga lopp outspeeds and kills with ice punch

and steel
Steel:

Heatran gets OHkoed by ep, unless ballon which:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 281-333 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Skarm:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 270-318 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
but can stall it with roost and praying for a focus miss, if the landorus-I is smart than predict roost and ep and GG skarm

scizor, unlike banded scizor, the mega doesn't 2HKO with bullet punch, but it gets 2HKOed by epower
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Scizor: 226-266 (65.8 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 647-764 (179.2 - 211.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
exca can do just half with iron head and hope for flinch and 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 356-421 (101.1 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
if relaxed ferro it takes the hit, and if it lands a power whip lando will lose over 40%

bisharp dies to earth power and focus blast, but it can 2HKO with sucker punch if sash (85.5% chance to 2HKO)
same with non hp ice magnezone.

and last:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 530-624 (165.1 - 194.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

in conclusion half the metagame has a chance to stop Lando-I, the problem is that these calcs are based on 1v1 and generic sets, also remember that is not lando alone the one putting the work, is the convo of everything on generic ground, so have that in mind, this post is just to help every1 have a better POV of what lando can/can't do, totally unbiased, if you want it, I can post what lando does to the other half of the meta later, thxs for reading this. Have a nice day/night :D
Click to expand...
These are very useful, but there are a couple things I wanted to point out. First, SpD Cress counters Lando-I. It can switch in and kill it via Toxic stall or Ice Beam if you run that. Secondly, I don't think your statement regarding Flying is true. With gravity, Landorus can do a number to Flying including hitting key Pokemon like Zard Y and Skarmory hard wih EP. It also gets Sludge Wave for Togekiss, and Rock Slide for Articuno and other Flying types. It also outspeeds Zard X pre-DD and bops it. So Landorus can do a lot to Flying with the right moveset.
 
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