Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[Punchshroom]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-234306326: vs Davon, killed a Sneasel and forced his Stunfisk to attack rather than getting up Stealth Rock
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-nu-61305: vs Omfuga, three goddamn kills

The first replay didn't seem to showcase Vanilluze strongly; why the fuk would the Sneasel continue staying in on the Gurdurr, and the Stunfisk was probably more intent on paralyzing your Sneasel than getting up SR. As for the second, well....

Vanilluxe also needs to be ranked. I'd venture to throw it in B, but I'm sure people will fight for it to be way lower than that because they are plebeians and don't understand its sheer power. What makes it so good is that it's the strongest Ice-type with access to Freeze-Dry, which is what separates it from Jynx. Ice Beam / Freeze-Dry / Hidden Power Ground hits the vast majority of the tier, leaving you with room for all kinds of weird filler moves, including Autotomize; Flash Cannon for Piloswine, Jynx, --->Cryogonal<---, and Sneasel; Signal Beam for Malamar, Sneasel, and based Grumpig; Ice Shard for priority (it has fucking 95 Attack); Explosion (95 fucking Attack); Magic Coat; fucking whatever you want. Most teams have a whopping Magneton and/or Sneasel for Ice resists that don't get smacked by Freeze-Dry, and both of them get 2HKO'd by Ice Beam or OHKO'd by the appropriate coverage move. You also outspeed Modest Magneton and have Weak Armor to switch into stuff like Kangaskhan's Fake Out or Sneasel's Ice Shard and then outspeed them the following turn. This Pokemon is seriously threatening. Here are a couple replays of it doing work:

This right there is the very reason I don't treat Vanilluxe with much respect. You are right that Freeze-Dry gives Vanilluxe a sort of 'edge' over Jynx. However, it certainly doesn't keep it ahead of Cryogonal, which gets nearly every single move Vanilluxe does (yes, even the physical ones, not saying Cryo makes use of them, just proving a point), and I certainly don't see why Cryogonal cannot be used in a more offensive manner. While Cryo is weaker, it still possesses the tricky coverage with its Freeze-Dry, and Cryo's speed tier of 105 is also much better than Vanilluxe's awkward 79 (can be outsped by Timid Magneton @_@). What's more, Cryogonal has superior utility in Rapid Spin or Recover; Cryo is still a good spinner, and Recover would help heal off Life Orb damage. Finally, Cryo has high Special Defense and Levitate, granting it far more switch-in opportunities than Vanilluxe could ever hope for (even more if Recover is factored). Vanilluxe's sole advantages include its physical Attack stat and Weak Armor, but its physical movepool basically consists of Ice Shard and Explosion, and Weak Armor isn't something Vanilluxe can easily take advantage of when compared to Kabutops, which switches into more things and can retaliate with its STABs alone. I'm not even going to talk about Autotomize because Rock Polish Aurorus blows it out of the water; Refrigerate Aurorus even hits harder than Vanilluxe.

I think it's easily a better Pokemon than Bouffalant, Leafeon, Mantine, and Pawniard, which are all in B.

These Pokemon do not face as much, if not any, competition from Pokemon of higher ranks. Meanwhile, it is really hard to justify the use of Vanilluxe over either Cryogonal or Aurorus which are both B+ ranks, certainly not enough to warrant Vanilluxe a straight B :/. I don't think Vanilluxe deserves to be ranked higher than Articuno.

 

[ryan]

I agree that Cryogonal gives Vanilluxe some competition because it's faster and has an arguably better ability, but the power difference between the two is insane, and the ability to switch out of Sneasel without straight dying is a big plus considering it's on like every other team.

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vanilluxe: 181-214 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

damage calcs

252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasel: 118-140 (47 - 55.7%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Cryogonal Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasel: 97-116 (38.6 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magneton: 296-354 (122.8 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Cryogonal Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magneton: 192-228 (79.6 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 248-294 (74.9 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 390-460 (117.8 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 153-181 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Cryogonal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 126-149 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(1.2% chance is misleading too because a lot of Mega Audino run some SpA EVs to guarantee the 3HKO on Malamar, and this obviously goes up with Spikes in the mix)

252 SpA Life Orb Cryogonal Ice Beam vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Fletchinder: 261-308 (89 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Fletchinder: 316-372 (107.8 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

meanwhile

252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cryogonal: 328-387 (116.7 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vanilluxe: 154-183 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

so no, I don't think Vanilluxe is outclassed by Cryogonal because they have different roles. Vanilluxe destroys walls, Cryogonal is better against offense and doesn't really have the moveslots to run Ice Beam/HP Ground/Freeze-Dry anyways. Aurorus is also much slower and still weaker than Vanilluxe.

 

[Punchshroom]

252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magneton: 296-354 (122.8 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Cryogonal Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magneton: 192-228 (79.6 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 248-294 (74.9 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 390-460 (117.8 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I noticed you left out LO on Cryo on these calcs, allow me:

252 SpA Life Orb Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 322-382 (97.2 - 115.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Cryogonal Hidden Power Ground vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magneton: 250-296 (103.3 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This shows me that while Cryo is indeed weaker, it can still KO most of what it needs to.

the ability to switch out of Sneasel without straight dying is a big plus considering it's on like every other team.

Sneasel's ubiquity did not manage to gimp Jynx very hard; hell it rose in ranking (though even I am a bit skeptical at that one).

so no, I don't think Vanilluxe is outclassed by Cryogonal because they have different roles. Vanilluxe destroys walls, Cryogonal is better against offense and doesn't really have the moveslots to run Ice Beam/HP Ground/Freeze-Dry anyways. Aurorus is also much slower and still weaker than Vanilluxe.

This doesn't really make sense; if Cryo 'doesn't have room' for these attacks, why use a Vanilluxe as opposed to a Cryo that does run these moves? I'd rather consider dropping either Spin or Recover on Cryo than run an equivalent that doesn't have either of those moves and is slower. While Vanilluxe has a more defined wallbreaking role, Cryogonal can inherently approach that role by virtue of its identical moveset even though it is 'supposed' to be faring better against offense. Basically this mirrors the Guts Ursaring vs Zangoose situation: the outclassed mon is trying to excel in a role the better mon is already pretty good / compareable at, plus the better mon is more useful against a wider variety of playstyles. It comes off as the outclassed mon being much less versatile, and requiring users to go out of their way to use them in the first place.

Also Aurorus's main Ice moves hits far harder than Vanilluxe's, while its Freeze-Dry is not that much weaker, meaning Aurorus also gives Vanilluxe competition in the wallreaking role. The arguably minimal difference in Speed shouldn't really matter when wallbreaking anyway, as few walls, or Pokemon in general, outrun base 58s but outslow base 79s.

252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 282-333 (108 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 341-403 (130.6 - 154.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 220-259 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 204-242 (78.1 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

B just seems far too high a bump for Vanilluxe; it's already grasping at straws to not be overshadowed by more specialised Ice-types.

 

[blaargathon]

I think Gorebyss needs to be raised to A Rank based on its stats coupled with having the ability to BP Shell Smash (AKA SmashPass). It has good bulk and the ol' reliable water typing which allows it to set up on a large number of physical attackers. The thing is, 114 special attack is really, really good, and once this thing sets up a Shell Smash it is capable of wreaking its own havoc outside of just supporting its team.

Gorebyss' negatives lie in it's Speed. It's terrible, and though SS somewhat mitigates this issue, it's still outsped by scarfers (I say scarfers because a good majority of the mons faster than a +2 Gorebyss are physical attackers and wont be taking it out). It also has to be careful with Lanturn, which can be an annoyance as it essentially forces you to pass into a ground or electric type and take the incoming Thunder Wave. (EDIT: I just realized the stupidity of this last sentence. I was having a long day....)

That being said, sweeping with Gorebyss is very easy. I was surprised to see it ranked so low. But what do I know... give me your thoughts, Smogon.

 

[Cherub Agent]

It's because huntail does the same thing but is far more useful as it can circumvent revenge killers with sucker punch

For purely offensive shell smashing, gorebyss is stronger yeah, but id rather use barbaracle for that (waterfall eq return) as it's considerably faster and the physical/special difference doesn't matter much when it kills everything anyway

---

Regarding icecream, sorry man but i can't really see B rank... C+ seems more fitting, putting it on the level of articuno. While it has some nice all around stats, cryogonal still gets the kills it needs to with the life orb set, and if i'm using a wallbreaker i'd honestly rather just use specs aurorus. It's not a bad mon at all, but this tier has a MASSIVE amount of offensive ice-types that all have considerable advantages over vanilluxe

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I actually found Gorebyss to be much better than Huntail... Hits considerably harder than Huntail because of Hydro Pump over Waterfall and 114 SpAtk vs 104 Atk... Huntail is that much easier to check just because of that as it can't really OHKO anything remotely bulky even at +2. Also does bad against common mons like Garbodor, Torterra, Vileplume and Gurdurr who Gorebyss has no trouble with.

And what does Sucker Punch actually hit? Scarfers that hit over 446 speed and priority which usually does nothing anyways. The few Scarfers that actually hit that speed tier like Jynx and Rotom can bypass Sucker Punch with Trick and force you to Baton Pass out or get locked into a move. To me that's way to situational to validate using a mon that is otherwise totally inferior to its counterpart. I feel like you guys are overhyping Sucker Punch, before it got it nobody would even consider Huntail over Gorebyss. Now that it does it means that it can hit a specific set on specific mons that sometimes need to be weakened beforehand (e.g. Scarf Tauros). That's a small niche/utility, but Gorebyss has the power and moves to sweep essentially the whole tier at +2 except for those faster mons that I mentioned and a few walls like Lanturn and Ferroseed. And then it can still pass out to something else against those or run a hidden power.

Aside from that I agree with A rank because Gorebyss is just that good. It can do SmashPass and be an offensive threat. Neither Barbaracle or Huntail can do both. It performs both roles incredibly well and sets up with ease thanks to its bulk and typing. Not to mention it's a fearsome Rain sweeper, easily on the same level as Kabutops thanks to its raw power. I've noticed people are using it more and more and for good reason. The current meta just really isn't prepared for it.

 

[Disjunction]

I actually found Gorebyss to be much better than Huntail... Hits considerably harder than Huntail because of Hydro Pump over Waterfall and 114 SpAtk vs 104 Atk... Huntail is that much easier to check just because of that as it can't really OHKO anything remotely bulky even at +2. Also does bad against common mons like Garbodor, Torterra, Vileplume and Gurdurr who Gorebyss has no trouble with.

And what does Sucker Punch actually hit? Scarfers that hit over 446 speed and priority which usually does nothing anyways. The few Scarfers that actually hit that speed tier like Jynx and Rotom can bypass Sucker Punch with Trick and force you to Baton Pass out or get locked into a move. To me that's way to situational to validate using a mon that is otherwise totally inferior to its counterpart. I feel like you guys are overhyping Sucker Punch, before it got it nobody would even consider Huntail over Gorebyss. Now that it does it means that it can hit a specific set on specific mons that sometimes need to be weakened beforehand (e.g. Scarf Tauros). That's a small niche/utility, but Gorebyss has the power and moves to sweep essentially the whole tier at +2 except for those faster mons that I mentioned and a few walls like Lanturn and Ferroseed. And then it can still pass out to something else against those or run a hidden power.

Aside from that I agree with A rank because Gorebyss is just that good. It can do SmashPass and be an offensive threat. Neither Barbaracle or Huntail can do both. It performs both roles incredibly well and sets up with ease thanks to its bulk and typing. Not to mention it's a fearsome Rain sweeper, easily on the same level as Kabutops thanks to its raw power. I've noticed people are using it more and more and for good reason. The current meta just really isn't prepared for it.

The difference in power doesn't mean anything considering the aspect of SmashPass that people are upset about is the passing. If this was a contest about which mon was a better independent sweeper then, yes, I would agree Gorebyss is better, but Huntail pulls off SmashPassing to a higher rate of success. And yes, this is because of Sucker Punch. Gorebyss is completely stopped by Choice Scarf users whereas Huntail has the ability to create a 50/50 with them. "If I Trick, I don't die to Sucker Punch, but he could still Baton Pass and I will lose to whatever comes in." Saying that Sucker Punch is a "small niche/utility" is blatantly wrong because it limits the amount of reliable checks to SmashPass there were in the first place. On a less relevant note, Haze Cryogonal doesn't stop Huntail like it did for Gorebyss as well.

 

[Evan.]

I actually found Gorebyss to be much better than Huntail... Hits considerably harder than Huntail because of Hydro Pump over Waterfall and 114 SpAtk vs 104 Atk... Huntail is that much easier to check just because of that as it can't really OHKO anything remotely bulky even at +2. Also does bad against common mons like Garbodor, Torterra, Vileplume and Gurdurr who Gorebyss has no trouble with.

And what does Sucker Punch actually hit? Scarfers that hit over 446 speed and priority which usually does nothing anyways. The few Scarfers that actually hit that speed tier like Jynx and Rotom can bypass Sucker Punch with Trick and force you to Baton Pass out or get locked into a move. To me that's way to situational to validate using a mon that is otherwise totally inferior to its counterpart. I feel like you guys are overhyping Sucker Punch, before it got it nobody would even consider Huntail over Gorebyss. Now that it does it means that it can hit a specific set on specific mons that sometimes need to be weakened beforehand (e.g. Scarf Tauros). That's a small niche/utility, but Gorebyss has the power and moves to sweep essentially the whole tier at +2 except for those faster mons that I mentioned and a few walls like Lanturn and Ferroseed. And then it can still pass out to something else against those or run a hidden power.

Aside from that I agree with A rank because Gorebyss is just that good. It can do SmashPass and be an offensive threat. Neither Barbaracle or Huntail can do both. It performs both roles incredibly well and sets up with ease thanks to its bulk and typing. Not to mention it's a fearsome Rain sweeper, easily on the same level as Kabutops thanks to its raw power. I've noticed people are using it more and more and for good reason. The current meta just really isn't prepared for it.

I think you're severly undervaluing how good sucker punch is. Being able to hit Scarf Mesprit, Jynx, Rotom, and Lilligant, which are by far the most common scarfers in the tier is huge because you force them into a situation where they need to either Trick or be killed. With gorebyss, they just come in and revenge you without any worry but with huntail, they pretty much have to trick as you click sucker. Once you get tricked, you can still click BP the next turn and go out into your magneton/kangaskhan relatively safely on whatever the scarfer was. If I was going to use offensive smash, I would use Barbaracle or Carracosta as because of Barbaracles superior bulk, speed, and great neutral coverage and Carracosta's Solid Rock and Aqua Jet. If I really wanted an offensive Smasher who hit on the special side (which is a ridculous niche in itself), I would still probably go with Special Carracosta due to the surprise factor and the fact that it can use Solid Rock and great physical bulk to set up.

Gorebyss is just a mon that is severly outclassed right now and I think that C is a much more fitting rank for it.

 

[HJAD]

Gorebyss is just that good. It can do SmashPass and be an offensive threat. Neither Barbaracle or Huntail can do both.

Huntail is an offensive threat :[
And, I've found for it to be a better smashpasser than gorebyss to the extent where I think it outclasses it. Sucker Punch really really is that important.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

You outspeed Scarf Mesprit and Sucker Punch doesn't kill Scarf Lilligant (who runs Sleep Powder as well if you feel like getting lucky with Sleep turns). Rotom faces competition from Magneton as a scarfer now too. Yes technically Huntail is a better passer. But isn't it better to have a slightly inferior passer that actually does other stuff effectively? I can see Disjunctions point though. Purely for Smash Pass teams Huntail is better but even then. Gorebyss threatens a lot more stuff than Huntail which makes passing easier too. Huntails niche is SmashPass teams only, Gorebyss' niche goes far beyond that. Like a win condition on every other team that can deal with one fast Scarfer or can weaken a Lanturn. Or as a deadly Swift Swim sweeper. That's worth a lot more than a gimmick that has a good chance of getting banned soon anyways. At least that's how I see it. That's why it should be ranked higher imo.

As for Barbaracle, it loses to Gurdurr and needs to run EQ to not lose to Garbodor... Gorebyss is easily on the same level and imo better because it doesn't have as many crippling weaknesses that prevent it from setting up on most of the tier and once again it can SmashPass. Special Carracosta is a gimmick that is totally inferior to Gorebyss and it only has the surprise factor going for it. Just no. And Huntail is not a good offensive threat compared to Gorebyss, especially if you're purely going to use it for SmashPass.

Again Sucker Punch only hits very specific targets. Let's list them. All scarfed obviously. Tauros, Jynx, Rotom, Mismagius, Haunter, Archeops, Lilligant, Scyther, Pyroar, Electivire, Primeape. If you scratch those that are faster but don't get knocked out by Sucker or are just not good enough like E-vire you're left with Jynx, Rotom, Mismagius and Haunter. I'll leave the judging up to you guys if you find those important enough or not~~

 

[HJAD]

As for Barbaracle, it loses to Gurdurr and needs to run EQ to not lose to Garbodor... Gorebyss is easily on the same level and imo better because it doesn't have as many crippling weaknesses that prevent it from setting up on most of the tier and once again it can SmashPass.

How does it lose to Garbodor again? I mean, it can seed bomb it, but that's assuming it can live a +2 stone edge and isn't weakened. +2 stone edge from barbaracle comes close to ko'ing.

Also, as far as I'm aware, Huntail and Gorebyss have the exact same typing, same BST, very similar bulk, come from the same evolution chain. Just one has sucker and physical attack and the other has no sucker and special attack.

Simply, if huntail had a crippling weakness, so does gorebyss. End of story.

 

[Magis4Life]

You outspeed Scarf Mesprit and Sucker Punch doesn't kill Scarf Lilligant (who runs Sleep Powder as well if you feel like getting lucky with Sleep turns). Rotom faces competition from Magneton as a scarfer now too. Yes technically Huntail is a better passer. But isn't it better to have a slightly inferior passer that actually does other stuff effectively? I can see Disjunctions point though. Purely for Smash Pass teams Huntail is better but even then. Gorebyss threatens a lot more stuff than Huntail which makes passing easier too. Huntails niche is SmashPass teams only, Gorebyss' niche goes far beyond that. Like a win condition on every other team that can deal with one fast Scarfer or can weaken a Lanturn. Or as a deadly Swift Swim sweeper. That's worth a lot more than a gimmick that has a good chance of getting banned soon anyways. At least that's how I see it. That's why it should be ranked higher imo.

As for Barbaracle, it loses to Gurdurr and needs to run EQ to not lose to Garbodor... Gorebyss is easily on the same level and imo better because it doesn't have as many crippling weaknesses that prevent it from setting up on most of the tier and once again it can SmashPass. Special Carracosta is a gimmick that is totally inferior to Gorebyss and it only has the surprise factor going for it. Just no. And Huntail is not a good offensive threat compared to Gorebyss, especially if you're purely going to use it for SmashPass.

Again Sucker Punch only hits very specific targets. Let's list them. All scarfed obviously. Tauros, Jynx, Rotom, Mismagius, Haunter, Archeops, Lilligant, Scyther, Pyroar, Electivire, Primeape. If you scratch those that are faster but don't get knocked out by Sucker or are just not good enough like E-vire you're left with Jynx, Rotom, Mismagius and Haunter. I'll leave the judging up to you guys if you find those important enough or not~~

I think i see what you are saying. That gorebyss is solid as an overall shell smash cleaner/passer rather than a passer on a pure baton pass team or in general due to better special attacking power that allows it to fare say decently against opposing haze users, etc. However, again I don't find to be the case considering that gorebyss is significantly easier to revenge kill compared to say Huntail, being outspeed by one of the more prevalent revenge killers in rotom/Rotom-s so really hurts it and huntail carrying the useful priority in Sucker punch helps it fare much better in this regard. Furthermore, sure Sucker punch can be made to be taking advantage of however, the opportunity cost that can come in mispredicting a Sucker punch is very high and can be costly to the point in losing the game (a 50/50 is enough for huntail to not be nearly as susceptible to revenge killing as gorebyss). I just find gorebyss has enough to distinguish from huntail to be find where it is but not higher as even as a cleaner, huntail can perform better in at times in not being nearly as susceptible to being revenge killed.

 

[Teddeh]

Just a few suggestions that I want to nominate for discussion to hear other peoples thoughts on them:
Pyroar -> A+: best fire type in the tier in my opinion, extremely fast, hard to switch into.

Torterra -> A-: This pokemon is a really good mon through tier shifts with its dual dancing set, wall breaking capabilities, resistances to edge-quake being unique, a ground type that doesn't lose to magneton even if specs, reliable stealth rocker that can beat xatu and amazing all round bulk meaning that even with no hp investment, it can check the likes of kabu, barbaracle, carra which are hard af to switch into now that toad isn't around.

Mawile -> A/A-: It was really hit hard with the tier shifts with the amount of checks running around for magneton also beating mawile such as torterra, stunfisk, fletch dropping. It's hard to switch into still with stab fairy moves however it's just a liability to have on your team since there are magnets running around carrying random magnet pulls for other magnets and the odd mawile that has really limited its ability to check sneasel and other mons such as tauros, archeops and mesprit who are now carrying hp fire / hp ground, tauros carrying eq aswell as chops limiting the bulky sets and harming its effectiveness.

jynx -> A: I honestly didn't think jynx got better with the shifts, it's always been a good mon but with the massive rise of sneasel, i disagree with it being so high on the ranking thread as well as mediocre base speed and a more offensive shift in teams.

Agreeing with the drops of vivi.

Especially agree with the rise of Stunfisk as I feel Soulgazer has listed the reasons perfectly on why it should rise.

 

[Relaxed Dedenne]

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vanilluxe: 181-214 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sneasel Can't Get Crunch, So Really| 252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vanilluxe: 220-259 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO And Do you really Expect a 30 defence pokemon against an 85 defence pokemon Isn't Enough? Cryo Learns Rapid Spin, And thats its job.

 

[shiloh]

Sneasel Can't Get Crunch, So Really| 252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vanilluxe: 220-259 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO And Do you really Expect a 30 defence pokemon against an 85 defence pokemon Isn't Enough? Cryo Learns Rapid Spin, And thats its job.

He was using Crunch as a way to simulate Pursuit against a pokemon switching out.

 

[Adaire]

Agree with torterra rising, it's amazing right now and a great partner to a lot of things. Anyways gonna mention a few things lower on the viability rankings.

Kecleon B ---> B+
I've seen a lot of people say this thing is outclassed by Kangaskhan but that is simply not the case, I have been using an AV set and it has proven really effective, it's spdef as you would expect is astronomically high and the main reason that I believe kecleon is so good is it's ability which is protean and allows you to play a lot of mind games with shadow sneak and sucker punch which rewards the player a lot if used correctly, now I hear you saying, how do the drops affect kecleon's viability? Well it simply just beats a lot of strong special attackers that have gained usage. It also has drain punch which is a cool way to get your health back. So protean and extra special bulk really separate it from kanga and I fully believe it should be B+. It also featured on a RMT that peeked #1

Jumpluff B ---> B-/C+
Jumpluff was a pretty cool mon before, it's high speed and sleep powder was a great niche, although now it just isn't as effective, fletchinder obviously is the main problem, it is always easily able to revenge kill jumpluff, the same goes for lilligant, but jumpluff is almost forced to get a boost to pose any threat at all with it's abysmal 55 attack and not being able to run an item because of acrobatics, lilligant however can pose a more immediate threat. It also faces sneasel, as said before jumpluff's main niche is being fast, sneasel outspeeds it and now that sneasel is one of the best mons in the tier, it's a huge blow back to jumpluff, not to mention things like garbodor and magneton just completely stop it. Really cool mon but just not that good anymore.

Bacon C- ---> D/Unranked Pignite is... uhh... just bad. While it does have some cool things like sucker punch, it is really outclassed by things like monferno who gets stealth rock, better typing, reliable recovery. Yes pignite is a bit bulkier but it really doesn't serve much purpose and really should not be used, everything it does particularly now, a mon with more viability can do the same job much better. Pignite also really got ranked because it stopped typh from spamming eruption and fire blast. Pignite, you are cool, but you gotta go

C+ ---> B- Floatzel is actually a lot better than I expected, I've used hollywood's special floatzel set and it works as a great lure, it's got a great speed tier and has accessibility to baton pass for momentum and taunt to stop rocks so it works as a great lead, a lot like it did in DPP NU. It also has a viable switcheroo choice band set which does work as due to floatzel's ability it can't be burned. Overall a nice little gem that can do a lot of work. Also special water types are just really good in this meta being able to hit a lot of things.

 

[astroboy]

so i was talking w Hootie and heres some stuff we talked about

Mantine to B-
Tier shifts have really been shit for our manta ray. Both Kabutops and Magneton are really popular right now, and both of them totally shit on Mantine. Atleast Pelipper has Roost for reliable recovery, and can U-turn away for scouting and momentum, but Mantine just sits there and hopes for a Scald burn. Hazard control has also become more readily available due to the advent of Kabutops, so that means that being a defogger isnt as important as it once was. Still walls stuff like Pyroar so I don't really think its C+ right now. Feel free to share your thoughts!

Meowstic-m to Unranked
This thing really doesn't have any niche. Liepard utilizes Prankster Encore and Thunder Wave way better than Meowstic does, while Uxie does dual screens better due to better bulk and Memento and U-turn for momentum and giving your team set up opportunities. I mean, you could make the argument about Prankster, but is it worth it? Uxie has a pretty respectable speed tier on its own, and I don't think there's any situation in which I'd want to use it over Uxie. Liepard also does Prankster weather setting better. How is this thing C+?

Stoutland to C-
I'm pretty sure Stoutland was put in C+ back in the M-Steelix era due to the rise of sand, but that's long gone and Stoutland (and sand, for that matter) isn't too good nowadays. Also kinda sucks that rain teams are more common due to the drop of Kabutops, arguably the best abuser of it. Scrappy sets blow btw.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Meowstic-m to Unranked
This thing really doesn't have any niche. Liepard utilizes Prankster Encore and Thunder Wave way better than Meowstic does, while Uxie does dual screens better due to better bulk and Memento and U-turn for momentum and giving your team set up opportunities. I mean, you could make the argument about Prankster, but is it worth it? Uxie has a pretty respectable speed tier on its own, and I don't think there's any situation in which I'd want to use it over Uxie. Liepard also does Prankster weather setting better. How is this thing C+?

You answered the question yourself. Meowstic does what Liepard does and what Uxie does in one slot. On top of that, Meowstic can always set the screens up even when it's as low as 1%. That's a really huge deal considering how nice it is to have 7 extra turns of Reflect or Light Screen to cover your team. Another thing is that it carries Prankster T-Wave, meaning nothing can setup alongside it while you're getting screens up. And again, Prankster T-Wave is always available even at 1% and it's just that good. Meowstic-M is a really unique support mon that definitely deserves its rank.

 

[Finchinator]

I already nominated mawile way before this ._.

So what's the point of posting this? You should be happy that others share the opinion that you have and continue to support this idea if you still believe in it - you shouldn't shun someone for posting on a similar topic just because they don't give you a mention for something you posted last weekend when it was just a little part of his post. Nothing wrong with Teddeh's post imo.

Anyway, to make this post not totally nitpicks, I'm going to agree with Meowstic dropping from C+, but maybe not all the way down to unranked as it still has a minor niche due to its ability+movepool, just a niche that warrants very little practical and effective use as other pokemon outdo while fulfilling comparable niches due to their other beneficial qualities that Meowstic lacks (I.e: Liepard has more of a threatening presence). I personally would never use Meowstic and I doubt any high level player would consider using it on a serious team, but it technically has the viability and niche to fit into a lower C or D rank as opposed to being totally unranked (C+ is still too high though).

In addition, Stunfisk should rise quite a bit - like Teddeh and SG said - as it gained a lot of usefulness with Magneton and, to a lesser extent, Fletch dropping into NU while a key competitor for the spot on a team as electric check that sets up SR, Seismitoad, went RU. Stunfisk went from an uncommon and viable, but not too practical pokemon in the tier to a top SR setter and utility against many common pokemon. I would say going from B to A- would be sufficient.

Torterra also has gained viability recently, but not too big of a gain, especially in comparison to Stunfisk, and it was decent beforehand, so I'm just going to agree with Teddeh and say it should rise to A-.

 

[Disjunction]

so i was talking w Hootie and heres some stuff we talked about

Mantine to B-
Tier shifts have really been shit for our manta ray. Both Kabutops and Magneton are really popular right now, and both of them totally shit on Mantine. Atleast Pelipper has Roost for reliable recovery, and can U-turn away for scouting and momentum, but Mantine just sits there and hopes for a Scald burn. Hazard control has also become more readily available due to the advent of Kabutops, so that means that being a defogger isnt as important as it once was. Still walls stuff like Pyroar so I don't really think its C+ right now. Feel free to share your thoughts!

Meowstic-m to Unranked
This thing really doesn't have any niche. Liepard utilizes Prankster Encore and Thunder Wave way better than Meowstic does, while Uxie does dual screens better due to better bulk and Memento and U-turn for momentum and giving your team set up opportunities. I mean, you could make the argument about Prankster, but is it worth it? Uxie has a pretty respectable speed tier on its own, and I don't think there's any situation in which I'd want to use it over Uxie. Liepard also does Prankster weather setting better. How is this thing C+?

Stoutland to C-
I'm pretty sure Stoutland was put in C+ back in the M-Steelix era due to the rise of sand, but that's long gone and Stoutland (and sand, for that matter) isn't too good nowadays. Also kinda sucks that rain teams are more common due to the drop of Kabutops, arguably the best abuser of it. Scrappy sets blow btw.

Agree with most of what you said. Meowstic-M definitely needs a drop, this thing isn't relevant. I'm unsure if it should go unranked, but C+ is definitely too high. Mantine is terrible in this Electric-type driven meta. I would argue for C+, tbh, especially considering one of the two Fire-types it was supposed to stop (Magmortar) beat it with Tbolt anyhow. There is little reason to use this over Pelipper nowadays.

However, I disagree with dropping Stoutland. Stoutland has extremely good coverage for a Normal-type in NU which makes it hard to switch into. Alongside its strong as hell Normal-type STAB, you have Crunch, Superpower, Wild Charge, and some other cute toys like Fire Fang and Pursuit. Nothing in this current meta has made it any worse and especially not the rise of rain. Rain relies on manual setters and needs its Rain to stay up so its sweepers can do their job. However, Sand ruins that momentum and even forces Rain users to sack their Liepard or Uxie just to get up another 8 tentative turns. Sand almost always wins vs Rain and Megalix leaving doesn't change that.

Also agreeing with Viv, Jumpluff, and Pignite drops. Viv and Jumpluff are absolutely ruined by the new Electric-type oriented meta plus the drop of Fletchinder. Pignite lost a big niche with Typh leaving so I think it's fair to say D is a good home for it. It still hits hard and checks other stuff like Pyroar and Klinklang, but it is by no means C- anymore.

Tort and (unfortunately) Fisk need to rise too. Bulky Ground-types are hot right now.

 

[Choice Banned]

C+ ----> B (I'd even push for B+ but that may be too much)
While the new meta is sort of a blessing and a curse for Zebstrika, it deserves a rise, considering it checks a lot of common/high-ranked things. It handles Fletch pretty well, not really caring if Fletch carries WoW (special sets are more viable than physical sets) and being able to retaliate with T-Bolt/Volt Switch. It can check magnets as well (granted, it's not as reliable as Torterra or Stunfisk), OHKOing Specs sets and 2HKOing/having a chance to OHKO Eviolite sets (and that's with Timid) bar investing in SpD. It can check Archeops, being faster (116 vs 110) and OHKOing with the two electric moves. Sap Sipper is another boon for Zeb, letting it check Lilligant and other Grass types. The biggest problem for Zebstrika would probably be the bulky Ground-Types, hence why I'm only saying B (well it can use HP Ice/HP Grass, but those are generally too weak), but it does check a majority of the important mons in the NU meta.

 

[Hootie]

I feel like if Zeb is rising, so should Raichu which has some really good coverage options in Surf, Grass Knot and Focus Blast, better special attack and its speed tier while not as good as Zeb still ties with Arch at the very least. Raichu is an decent offensive check to Magneton which offense already lacks and its coverage allows it to hit bulky Ground-types. The only issue is that it has trouble with some Grass-types which Zeb is able to handle with Fire coverage. Though I'm not sure if B is appropriate for both of them. For the time being both of them should rise to B-

Edit: Raichu also has nasty plot too !_!

 

[shiloh]

C+ ----> B (I'd even push for B+ but that may be too much)
While the new meta is sort of a blessing and a curse for Zebstrika, it deserves a rise, considering it checks a lot of common/high-ranked things. It handles Fletch pretty well, not really caring if Fletch carries WoW (special sets are more viable than physical sets) and being able to retaliate with T-Bolt/Volt Switch. It can check magnets as well (granted, it's not as reliable as Torterra or Stunfisk), OHKOing Specs sets and 2HKOing/having a chance to OHKO Eviolite sets (and that's with Timid) bar investing in SpD. It can check Archeops, being faster (116 vs 110) and OHKOing with the two electric moves. Sap Sipper is another boon for Zeb, letting it check Lilligant and other Grass types. The biggest problem for Zebstrika would probably be the bulky Ground-Types, hence why I'm only saying B (well it can use HP Ice/HP Grass, but those are generally too weak), but it does check a majority of the important mons in the NU meta.

I completely disagree with the rise of Zebstrika. While it is true it can get by the new drops, it has no way of getting by the Checks and Counters of those drops. This would be pokemon like Lanturn and Stunfisk, which Zebstrika has little to no way to get rid of. The reason it is ranked in C+ in the first place is due to its Speed Tier, and there has been nothing in the new drops that makes its Speed Tier any better.

I do however agree with the rise of Raichu, as it does have a lot more coverage options like Surf and Grass Knot to get by the rise of pokemon like Stunfisk and Lanturn.

 

[Deeerpz]

I'm on mobile right now and I know jack about Raichu, so I can't run calcs, but isn't Grass Knot super weak against Lanturn? I fought a Raichu the other day and its grass knots did like 15%. If that's the case, I see him having a hard time rising, considering Lanturn/Torterra/Stunfisk are so omnipresent.

Alright so after running some calcs, what is supposedly so good about Raichu? He 2HKOs Stunfisk with surf but dies to one Earth Power after rocks, Grass Knot on lanturn is barely a 4HKO, even Focus Blast is a mere 28,2% chance to 3HKO, and I'm not even sure if the damage calc considers the 70% accuracy. It 2HKOs Torterra, but gets bopped by one Earthquake. With these 3 being super common at the moment, I don't see what Raichu does that would warrant it rising much.

Also, genuine question, what's his advantage over EVire other than different coverage options?

 

[Steakburgers]

I definitely agree with the Raichu rise
To think that ehm
Electrivire is actually solid now, Raichu isn't that much far behind
Its got surf for magmortar and pyroar, volt switch for momentum, focus blast for magneton, and grass knot for quagsire and whatnot
This mon has it all