Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Lord Xen III]

Those cons are being exaggerated a bit. It's recovery isn't that bad, with Synthesis and the more uncommon Leech Seed being viable options for immediate and passive recovery. It's not that easy to wear down, with a great ability basically nullifying two of it's weaknesses, and it's other ones can be covered via small support, and that support is almost parallel to the Pokemon in A+. And being scared out isn't that bad, unless the Pokemon is a huge threat to your team. I agree with the pros, though. I am adding to the pros though: the offensive set can 2HKO Ferrothorn with HP Fire, and can take all of it's moves with ease.

EDIT: It can also check Clefable and Mega Altaria, the two most threatening Fairy-types in the tier, and very prominent attackers or stallers in the tier very reliably.

It only gets 8 synthesis, and no other reliable recovery bar leech seed which causes it to lose its coverage option( giving more free turns to its numerous answers) and giga drain only goes so far. When its switching into scalds in the sand, you will see why it gets worn down fast in the current meta. It's bulk is great , its ability is great, its offenses are great considering how bulky it is, and its ability to check lots of deadly threats in one slot is also great. But when you have a host of checks and counters in the meta you will see why mega venu has its struggles. in its defense tho some of its good checks are also annoyed by switching into sludge bomb poisons.

I agree with most of what you had to say and that just because people finally came to their senses and started using Mega Venusaur again does not mean it has to automatically move up in rank. However, I thought a few of your points were a bit unfair regarding both pros and cons.

(Bullet 1, Cons) Saying that its recovery is really shitty for a tank is a bit of an exaggeration. Sure, Synthesis isn't always reliable because it only recovers 25% in sand and rain, but calling it really shitty is an overstatement. Rotom-W has really shitty recovery for a tank. Mega Venusaur's recovery is just not always reliable. I do agree with your second detail of that bullet point which said that it doesn't "blanket check" half the meta like the pro A+ people claim.

(Bullet 2, Cons) Agreed, it has many common checks and counters

(Bullet 3, Cons) For the most part I agree with this point because it lacks Leftovers recovery, but we can't forget that Heatran is A+ and it is the definition of easy to wear down

(Bullet 4, Cons) I've always thought that the support arguement was kinda bs when being applied to rankings and I think that's why AM changed the defintions in the OP and told us to ignore them for the most part. A lot of defensive pokemon such as Mega Venusaur are generally the supporters themselves. It's hard to rank them based on the amount of support they need because many teams are built around one pokemon or a core of pokemon and Mega Venusaur is the kind of pokemon added to support or glue the team together. I get the support arguement when we're talking about ranking something like Charizard or Talonflame because of their huge Stealth Rock weakness, or Excadrill needing a sand setter (which is in A+), but in the case of Mega Venusaur I think we're better off ignoring how much support it needs because it's generally a 'mon that supports others.

(Bullet 1, Pros) I agree that it's sorta an anti-meta pokemon because many people don't prepare for it, although that's starting to change.

(Bullet 2, Pros) I agree with this although like I said before, I wouldn't include support into an arguement for a pokemon such as Mega Venusar to rise/fall

(Bullet 3, Pros) I wouldn't exactly call Mega Venusaur "versatile." I guess it can have Hidden Power Fire, Earthquake, or Sleep Powder in that last slot so people should be careful with their Ferrothorns and Heatrans. And it technically does have two different sets, one being an offensive tank and the other being a defensive tank. However, there isn't really a big difference between the sets and for the most part I wouldn't call Mega Venusaur "versatile", nor use that as an arguement to move it up

All in all I did think this was a pretty fair quality post, especially from a new member.


At the end of the day, Mega Venusaur will be either a strong A or a rather weak A+. Personally, I see it fitting better in A+ for a few reasons that I haven't seen anyone else state (sorry if I missed something):

1. This is the probably the weakest of the three reasons, but I still think Mega Venusaur isn't prepared for enough and is therefore slightly anti-meta. However, I believe that people are starting to prepare for it more, significantly more than a few weeks ago, so I can see if this point doesn't hold up.

2. Mega Venusaur can reliably switch into every Mega Altaria set. Mega Altaria is certainly one of the best pokemon right now due to it's sheer versatility. Is it physcial or special? Does it have Fire Blast, Earthquake, or neither? Can I status it, or will it just refresh that off? Should I try and do chip damage to it as it sets up so I can pick it off with priority later, or will it Roost on me? What if it's running that infernal Cotton Guard set? Well it doesn't matter if you have Mega Venusaur, and I don't think any pokemon in OU can take on all of these sets besides Mega Venusaur.

3. I'm sorry, but I just cannot see Mega Venusaur two ranks below Clefable. Both are excellent glue pokemon, and while Clefable does have a few utility advantages such as Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, and Calm Mind, I just don't think it's that much better than Mega Venusaur. I get that those advantages might make it better enough to justify a one rank difference, but a two rank difference is just too much. I get that taking up a Mega Slot is a valid arguement, but that hasn't stopped Mega Gyarados, Mega Gardevoire, Mega Scizor, or Mega Lopunny from residing in A+. They all take up Mega Slots and see further competition because they are all offensive megas, meaning they have to compete with themselves and the three offensive megas in S for their rank to justify their position in A+. So as I see it either Clefable should move down, possibly with a mega in A+, or Mega Venusaur should move up.

Solid points overall. However, Clefable doesn't really deserve a drop on that merit. With magic guard its much more resilient than mega venu to hazards weather and status and can hold lefties and has a reliable recovery move, which is really the main flaws with mega venu. Fairy Typing is also a pretty good defensive typing for clef. I think mega venu should remain A.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

Mega venusaur is the kinda of tank that "lives hard, lives fast" tank like rotom W who doesn't have reliable recovery (8pp is not reliable recovery cause its not enought to outlast what you are more trying to check more in this hazardous and passive damage like scald burn and sandstorm damage will kill you fast more with no leftovers) but obviously in those turns mega venusuar will do more than your average shitty grass passive type like amoongus who just clicks spore and then he sits to do nothing, mega venusaur will start to luring in steel types with hp fire or bate heatran with earthquake, can even knock off on the incoming psyquic and what venusaur
does best: wall and rape almost every grass, waters, fighting, electrics, ground, rock and fairys not named gardevoir who even with his stab psyshock doesnt kill mega venu at full everything that its on this types struggle with venu if they dont carry psyquic or flying coverage and some still struggle to beath him with that coverage (for example keldeo needs specs hidden power flying to even have the change to 2OHKO mega venu after SR if you dont that level of power mega venusaur owns you) so i think that mega venusaur can go up to A+ also i think Rotom W needs to drop to A- birdspam is quite dead and rotom W is 2koed or struggles vs almost all S-A+ rank and its a kinda tornadus T shitty check because Tornadus T will just knock off your leftovers and then u-turn out.

 

[Martin]

M-Venu is not an easy 'mon to take down. Hell - I generally think that it is one of the most tedious 'mons to have to deal with in the current metagame. Synthesis isn't reliable, but not for the reason a lot of you seem to think. The PP isn't an issue (as if you are having to use it more than twice in a row due to the power of your opponent you shouldn't be keeping Mega Venusaur in on it, and m-venu is mostly found on more bulky or balance-oriented playstyles which tend to come with either Heal Bell or Healing Wish/Lunar Dance support anyway - alleviating the Scald burn issue somewhat); the reason it is unreliable is because it gets completely shut down by sandstorm and rain (25% recovery does not cut it) - the latter of which M-Venu should check in theory (and does barring the nonexistent recovery... not that it matters when Giga Drain takes a chunk out two thirds of the team) - while M-Venu is not capable of having it boosted by sun unless it either a) forgos one of its options for Sunny Day (not recommended unless your team desperately struggles v.s. sandstorm or rain) or b) is run alongside Ninetales ('cause screw the one mega limit), but at the cost of not being able to use Chlorophyll to its fullest like it would with its base form. However, I think that people are blowing the recovery issue a little out of proportion. The reason I say this is because it is a small detail that people have managed to bring up 3-4 times within the previous 5 or 6 posts. It is a small detail that only hurts it in very specific scenarios, and therefore should be no more than a minor point on a cons list. I'm not nomming it either way (although IMO it should be A+ on gut) - just bringing that up.

 

[bludz]

It's been explicitly stated that Mega Venusaur is staying in A unless some better arguments show up. I agree that it should stay in A and I think its effectiveness is exaggerated in the current metagame.

No doubt that it's really awesome and walls a ton of things but its metagame trends do not favor it. Tornadus-T is as popular as ever and Sand offense is incredibly effective. Not to mention Charizard X is on the rise again, Manaphy (also very popular) is often paired with Mega Altaria and runs a lure move in HP [Fire] for Ferro or Psychic for Venusaur. Lastly as people have mentioned, Rotom-Wash has declined somewhat and so has Keldeo, which means some of the things Venusaur counters are not quite as good.

So yeah, Mega Venusaur is a really solid mon and yes it's difficult to take down, great in the sense that it walls hard to wall threats like Azumarill and all forms of Mega Altaria, but the current metagame doesn't favor a rise. I think it's time to give this nomination a rest.

 

[thesecondbest]

Ampharos-Mega C --> C+
This thing is really underrated and virtually unused, but it is by no means bad. Especially with Lando gone(although I would have made this nom earlier as well) this thing can wall a vast number of special attackers and has access to a quality volt switch. This makes a brilliant core with skarmory. Ampharos walls any electric type, even taking hp ice with ease, flying types, some waters, fire types, and more. It has better bulk than mew while having a higher special attack than Char-Y (although granted you don't come with drought). Meanwhile skarm can take on any dragons or grounds that trouble ampharos, while offering defog or hazard support, both of which are great for volt turn teams. I'm not saying Ampharos is insanely good; I just think it deserves higher than C.

 

[Baharoth]

An important thing about Mega Chomp that hasn't been mentioned so far from what i could see is the prevalence of Hippo and Sand in generall. You often don't even need your own sand setter to pump it up, you opponent does that for you. So the "it needs support" argument, which is pretty bad to beginn with because it doesn't even need sand to steamroll defensive teams, is even less relevant atm. So yeah this thing realy needs to rise.

Regarding Weavile, i honestly can't understand how people can even suggest it to go to A+. Imo A is already much higher than it should be. I understand that its speed tier, ice prio and offensive Stab coverage are cool against offense but honestly, thats about it with good traits. Its power, even with LO is average at best, it can't even reliably 2hko mixed def clef mit icecycle crash (10% chance). Pretty much everything with halfway decent physical bulk walls it to hell and back and balance is still a very prominent playstyle right now. If the meta was all about offense things might be different but balance is everywhere and Weavile isn't exactly usefull against it because many popular balance mons have no trouble dealing with it. It can run SD to be more of a threat to balanced teams but thats usually a do or die predict as even passive walls like hippo can ohko or 2hko it with ease, and its not like +2 Weavile just ohkos everything, it will still often fail to do that and dies instantly if something can hit back. That horrible defensive typing and non existent bulk alone should be enough to keep it out of A+ rank. Its typing means that it takes SE damage from almost every relevant attacking type in the game and combined with the pathetic bulk it means that even average neutral hits will do massive damage or outright ohko after SR (which takes 25% out of it every time it comes in). Even against offense its not all that good with things like Keldeo and Azu around who take next to nothing from its stabs and can force it out. Its impact on the meta is also nowhere near that of the other A+ mons who are metagame defining threats for the most part. Imo the only direction for Weavile is down, not up.

 

[Poek]

An important thing about Mega Chomp that hasn't been mentioned so far from what i could see is the prevalence of Hippo and Sand in generall. You often don't even need your own sand setter to pump it up, you opponent does that for you. So the "it needs support" argument, which is pretty bad to beginn with because it doesn't even need sand to steamroll defensive teams, is even less relevant atm. So yeah this thing realy needs to rise.

Regarding Weavile, i honestly can't understand how people can even suggest it to go to A+. Imo A is already much higher than it should be. I understand that its speed tier, ice prio and offensive Stab coverage are cool against offense but honestly, thats about it with good traits. Its power, even with LO is average at best, it can't even reliably 2hko mixed def clef mit icecycle crash (10% chance). Pretty much everything with halfway decent physical bulk walls it to hell and back and balance is still a very prominent playstyle right now. If the meta was all about offense things might be different but balance is everywhere and Weavile isn't exactly usefull against it because many popular balance mons have no trouble dealing with it. It can run SD to be more of a threat to balanced teams but thats usually a do or die predict as even passive walls like hippo can ohko or 2hko it with ease, and its not like +2 Weavile just ohkos everything, it will still often fail to do that and dies instantly if something can hit back. That horrible defensive typing and non existent bulk alone should be enough to keep it out of A+ rank. Its typing means that it takes SE damage from almost every relevant attacking type in the game and combined with the pathetic bulk it means that even average neutral hits will do massive damage or outright ohko after SR (which takes 25% out of it every time it comes in). Even against offense its not all that good with things like Keldeo and Azu around who take next to nothing from its stabs and can force it out. Its impact on the meta is also nowhere near that of the other A+ mons who are metagame defining threats for the most part. Imo the only direction for Weavile is down, not up.

You're severely underrating Weavile's capabilities. It's true that his bulk is almost non existant but that's why its mostly used on offensive teams, where you have to play offensively with it (think about double switches, volt-turn support) and when it's in, it's in for good. You may think that Clefable might actually counter it but when it has her leftovers knocked off isn't all that fine and dandy.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 179-212 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO

The Clefable user has to Softboiled in the turn Weavile knocks off if it wants to try and have a chance to check it next time. Azumarill and Keldeo just switch in once, and even then they don't like having their items removed. It's speed tier is really clutch in this meta to outspeed the base 110's, Tornadus-T and Alakazam, which are all pokemon that are actually everywhere at this moment and it's really nice to outspeed them. Add to it the fact that it has an Ice-type physical move that does not make contact at all with the pokemon you're dealing with and that means that you don't take any damage from the so popular rocky helmet Garchomp which you are obviously ohkoing and inflicting huge damage to Ferrothorn without taking Iron Barbs is really nice. It also has priority so that you can pick off weakened foes / revenge kill dd Mega Altaria. Also Weavile is not a one trick pony as it does have its options, Low Kick to damage certain balance teams from the beggining, Pursuit to trap latis and weakened foes (comes in clutch against weakened tornadus-t so you can remove that annoyance for the rest of the match) and Swords Dance, which is really scary as it does up to ~80% to Keldeo at +2, a suposed counter. I don't think moving it to A+ would be such a problem considering its pros, but I don't really care if it stays A.

 

[p2]

I also nominate

Mega Heracross to B as well. In terms of wallbreaking it's still among the best in terms of raw power, and its amazing Skill Link attacks, and good boosting options. But my main argument is the state of the meta game is unfavorable to it. Fire, Fairy, and Flying (the three Fs), are all en vogue, as well as speed, and these are all poor trends for Heracross. Which is a shame, because it's bulk is fantastic at 80/115/105 with decent typing, but you'd need to go max/max for SpD to handle checks. This isn't a huge loss as its ludicrous 185 attack stat that makes even Kyurem-B blush sits at a pretty 446 with an Adamant nature and 0 EVs. To put in perspective, that's roughly 20 points higher still than 252+ Haxorus and 252 Mega Gallade, and those aren't offensive slouches. And you can boost on top of that. However, finding the opportunity to boost is difficult as it should be hitting switch ins, and it's also susceptible to all forms of status. If anything, its base iteration performs better in this meta.

0+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 210-245 (69.7 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 223-264 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scarf Heracross performs admirably against offensive and defensive teams alike, whereas Mega Heracross really shines against defensive teams. Jolly Guts Megahorn hits harder than even Adamant 252 Pin Missle, and Heracross can actually hit first. Scarf sets outspeed even Timid Mega Alakazam, and even without Guts activated, here are all the relevant OHKOs it can get against sweepers.

252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 458-542 (153.1 - 181.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 542-638 (209.2 - 246.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Sceptile: 486-572 (172.9 - 203.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 524-618 (186.4 - 219.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 398-470 (136.7 - 161.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 354-416 (106.9 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (revenge +1 Mega Gyarados)
252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 540-636 (158.3 - 186.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (revenge +1 Mega Tyranitar)
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 229-270 (81.4 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 196-232 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

You get the point. So really, I think the gap between the Hera's needs to be narrowed for the current meta. So I nominate

Heracross for B- It's much better than the rest of C+ tier.

Why would you even want to drop Mega Hera? If anything it should rise because of how much it thrives in such a Balance and Stall filled meta, it just breaks them so easily - and no, Gliscor and Clefable aren't consistent answers on Stall or Balance to it, don't bother mentioning them. It doesn't need to invest when its unboosted bulk it's really solid, watch this replay where it takes a LO Thunder from Thundurus and proceeds to rip apart a rain team http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-239855102. I wouldn't say offense has an amazing matchup either against Hera (unless its something like Birdspam), it has nothing to switch into MHera. You've got MGross, but it must be mega evolved prior to coming in because it just gets outsped otherwise, you've got Altaria but it must be Jolly and mega evolved to come in on Rock Blast, Hawlucha is pretty shaky coming in on Rock Blast and Doublade is just.. Doublade, it walls the living hell out of the wallbreaker megas and Clefable isn't stopping it the second it picks up some prior damage. I'm not sure what all those ScarfCross calcs mean other than being able to hit something fast with a 2x or 4x weakness, but considering that its choiced locked, it can be really easy to exploit, do you really want to be firing off whatever move and end up hitting a mon that resists it and uses Hera as set up bait?
Mega Heracross is one of those mons that are pretty difficult to play around because no matter what it hits, it's putting a huge dent into something, even unboosted and because it completely shreds Balance and Stall teams which are all really common right now, it should move back up to A-.

 

[AM]

Mega Heracross for A- is a bit much. In most games it's going to be a highly prediction reliant mon in regards to switch ins that excels at slower builds but in a matter of a couple of turns can be taken advantage of due to its average speed and typing that leaves it prone to the likes of the zards, fast offensive psychics, Torn-T, with no reliable priority to boot. Yes, behind hazards and Thunder Wave / Stall-breaking utility support for example TWave Clefable + Trick Latios it can mitigate its matchup against a majority of offensive teams, but that's enough support along with clicking the right move on assumed switch ins at that moment to show that there is some sort of reliance on its team-mates to its job at an almost, albeit subjective, equal level for what some of the B+ ranked mons are capable of.

As much as I think Mega Garchomp is being overhyped with everyone riding the M-Garchomp bandwagon train I can't see M-Heracross two subdivisions higher than Mega Garchomp. They're both fine where they are.

 

[Srn]

Mega Heracross for A- is a bit much. In most games it's going to be a highly prediction reliant mon in regards to switch ins that excels at slower builds but in a matter of a couple of turns can be taken advantage of due to its average speed and typing that leaves it prone to the likes of the zards, fast offensive psychics, Torn-T, with no reliable priority to boot. Yes, behind hazards and Thunder Wave / Stall-breaking utility support for example TWave Clefable + Trick Latios it can mitigate its matchup against a majority of offensive teams, but that's enough support along with clicking the right move on assumed switch ins at that moment to show that there is some sort of reliance on its team-mates to its job at an almost, albeit subjective, equal level for what some of the B+ ranked mons are capable of.

As much as I think Mega Garchomp is being overhyped with everyone riding the M-Garchomp bandwagon train I can't see M-Heracross two subdivisions higher than Mega Garchomp. They're both fine where they are.

How is it being overhyped lol. show me a calc of something taking +2 attacks from it, then give me a good reason as to why 108/115/95 bulk can't get there vs defensive teams. If you can do those two things i'll literally hop off this "bandwagon" right now...
Don't forget the set to wall tho:

no counters hngh

Garchomp @ Garchompite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 20 Def / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance

I also do remember u saying this:

Anyways thought I would post on some stuff I agree with or general things I'd like answered or addressed.

So I agree with M-Banette rising from ben and I do agree to C Rank. It is on par if not exceeds M-Absol and M-Ampharos in practical scenarios and is better than most people give it credit for. Idk what else to say ben covered like every single thing possible in his nom a couple pages back so not gonna bother unless asked.

I'm kind of neutral on Meloetta but that's mostly cause I don't use it, I see it used against me though. It's solid though played a couple of guys like Storm with his SubCM set but the set ben posted I think has the most effectiveness right now.

I'd like some replays of Doublade in action, ones that aren't ass either. It's on the verge of being unranked so let us know why it should be D with concrete evidence if you're interested thanks.

I did this in convo I had with team and thought it would be a cool idea to give a run down like this. Sort of just glancing at it and seeing what should move up or down.

S Rank

Altaria (Mega) - Fire Blast M-Altaria is just a new form of disease destroying the last legitimate checks it had.

Clefable - Good in S, I hate this thing to

Landorus - Lol

Metagross (Mega)- Still dumb so fine

A+ Ranks

Azumarill - Always underrated, fine

Bisharp - This probably will never drop down in ORAS lol. SD set + hazards can turn would be checks into lost causes.

Charizard (Mega-X) - I think this thing is a monster but I'm holding my reservations about S until it becomes cut and dry to me.

Diancie (Mega) - I think M-Diancie is a bit overhyped but can't ignore the different variations it has in screwing over would be answers to it.

Garchomp - One of the most consistent glue mons in the tier, not S at all though.

Gengar - Sigh why are all the legitimate switch ins to it such terrible mons. Fine

Gyarados (Mega) - Peoples preparation for this thing is almost impossible outside of using fat fightings and Keldeo hoping that it wasn't weakened about to take +1 EQ. It's good in A+

Heatran - Under appreciated, definite A+

Keldeo - Definite A+

Landorus-T - This thing looks more A everytime I see it, until I see SD sets which rips a balance a new one.

Lopunny (Mega) - Read Bisharp

Latios - People really underestimate what this is actually capable of everytime the notion that it's on par with Latias in viability comes up. Lots of strength backed up by a coverage move of choice for teams, can make a devastating wall-breaker with CM that even things like Heatran can keel over to. It's the definition of a good offense being your best defense.

Manaphy - Anything that can basically be used by a 4 year old is pretty much A+ in my eyes.

Sableye (Mega) - I'm just sitting here, double switching onto your support moves making you hate me and forcing out your fairies for easy prediction games. Fine in A+.

Scizor (Mega) - One of the best steel types in the tier right now. Definitely fine in A+

Talonflame - This will more than likely never be a debate.

Thundurus - NP / 3 attacks is retarded to go up against.

Tornadus-T - Kind of a given how useful this is at this point.

A Rank

Alakazam (Mega) - Some people have been arguing for a raise but I think that's a bit pushing it to me personally. I guess there's some merit depend on how you look at it but I prefer things to drop rather than rise.

Charizard (Mega-Y) - Poops on balance. Fine in A.

Excadrill - It'll more than likely stay in A for awhile unless sand offense magically becomes bad, so never.

Ferrothorn - Fine in A. Solid glue mon.

Gardevoir (Mega) - Defensive set rocks, M-Gard in its known glory is still great as well.

Gliscor - It's good here.

Hippowdon - Used this on like a million teams, definite A

Latias - Fine in A, Healing Wish is its saving grace and clutch.

Latias (Mega) - Fine in A during Landorus meta. Fat win cons that rampage tour scene with Stored power.

Manectric (Mega) - After Mega Lopunny this is more than likely the mon annoying offense in terms of megas. Fine in A.

Rotom-W - This honestly can drop in my eyes *gasp*. I can go in depth if need be.

Slowbro - Fine in A, CM Bro is sexy.

Skarmory - Just moved here kind of a given.

Starmie - I don't use this much but its one of the few non shitty spinners in the tier left so fine here.

Tyranitar - TTar is ttar, classics never die fine in A.

Venusaur (Mega) - Henry wanted a raise, I'm assuming cause of Mega Altaria. Not seeing it but I get the point and there's slight justification for it.

Weavile - Fine in A, let the bandwagon and hype die down before throwing this any higher.

A- Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega) - Under appreciated needs only fat waters and grounds out and you're good to go.

Celebi - Sort of addressed this but I think it's riding on a whole lot of former glory that it shouldn't be riding on anymore. Should drop.

Gyarados - Fine in A-

Jirachi - I don't use this too much but from what I've played against looks like a solid A-

Klefki - Good in A-. Hazards, weavile switch in on offense, Heal Block, Fairy Lock, lots of good utility options for balance and offense to use.

Kyurem-B - Fine in A-. It's overplayed for being in A or higher a shitload of times.

Mew - Good in A-. Classics never die again.

Pinsir (Mega) - This really needs more usage tbh. It's still a monster. Good in A-.

Politoed - Kind of debating this one. I think Kingdra is bonkers under rain but Politoed supplementing the playstyle I don't think would be justification for it to be above Kingdra. They could be in the same rank for the simple fact any rain team or rain core is gonna have both of these while everything else is debatable.

Raikou - Fine in A-, nothing much else to say.

Serperior - Fine in A-, shitty typing holds it back from moving any higher.

Slowbro (Mega) - Fine in A- to me personally although I guess some people didn't think so.

Volcarona - Teams autolosing to this is a travesty but oh well, that enough solidifies it in A-

B+ rank

Alakazam - Most team thinks this should rise. Some have reasoned that the gap between Alakazam and Mega Alakazam viability shouldn't be that close though so I guess some reasoning or ideas would be nice.

Breloom - Been using it a ton lately with SD / Toxic Orb set Seed Bomb, Drain Punch, Mach Punch, SD winning a bunch of games with it. It's definitely solid in B+

Diggersby - I never understood the allure of Diggersby at this point in the meta. I guess it's wall-breaking power is kind of cute if you can actually pull it off. Just two cents.

Dragalge - We had a pretty big discussion I guess about two hours ago about this dropping. On one hand I sort of get where pro-drop is coming from in how it's slow as hell gets extremely worn down on the other hand this thing is forcing switches and netting huge damage when it clicks a STAB move. I've had a lot of success with it personally but I sort of get where a drop is coming from now in the meta with this heavier duty offense and stuff like Garchomp everywhere and grounds who can obliterate it.

Dragonite - Fine in B+. A- or higher is too much.

Gallade (Mega) - Never cared for this, probably never will. No comment.

Heracross (Mega) - I would technically drop this after extended use of it but realistically this is better than all the megas with the exception of Mega Tyranitar below it and most of the mons so have to say fine with this for now.

Hydreigon - No comment

Kabutops - Fine

Kingdra - Definitely fine lol

Magnezone - I honestly never liked this thing at all. I've always felt like Magnezone was a desperate attempt to patch up a team weakness that weren't always reliable enough to do so. Lots of Skarmory and stuff that Mega Altaria wants out of the picture in the meta right now so I guess this is ok.

Mamoswine - Fine in B+, it's really not A- material, not on the level of Volcarona and Mew basically.

Slowking - Just moved here.

Suicune - I think this is good after a lot of use with it, some don't. Better than almost everything in B though.

Swampert (Mega) - Haven't used this in awhile cause I don't find rain that enjoyable or appealing to use anymore.

Terrakion - Good in B+

Togekiss - It's ok but no definitive comment since I don't think I've used it to a level where I feel comfortable saying it's B+

Victini - Ladder hero mon, when people realize how overhyped this is maybe it'll drop but until then fine in B+ I guess

B Ranks

Amoonguss - Good in B

Azelf - Fine in B

Beedrill (Mega) - Fat chomp everywhere, fatter balance teams, hazard stacking teams everywhere. I think this is less appealing everytime I think about making a team where good M-Beedrill teams to me dedicate a lot of team support to supplement it and be this momentum grabber.

Chesnaught - This thing is actually super mediocre lol. It's so team specific and half of the stuff it's suppose to defensively check it can't even do so effectively due to the nature of the meta and how exploitable this can end up being.

Crawdaunt - Better than most people give it credit for. Has a good matchup against two opposite ends of the spectrum because of the tools it has to utilize, SD to break defensive builds with Aqua Jet + SD to handle offense.

Empoleon - This is ok in B for now.

Garchomp (Mega) - No comment, the few times I've used it I think were terrible so not gonna base my judgement solely on those few instances for now.

Gothitelle - Fine here

Hawlucha - Definitely fine here.

Medicham (Mega) - Probably should be same rank as M-Gallade at this point.

Quagsire - Needs to drop. Everything it defensively blanket checks is nice in theory and falls apart in practice. It defensively checks a good amount of stuff but after that it's so hard to justify using this unless you're using something completely unorthodox

Omastar - I wouldn't raise this personally. I find Kingdra superior to Omastar overall and if need be when I'm not exhausted can explain why I think it's fine here.

Reuniclus - Good here

Sceptile (Mega) - Never was a fan of this, but ben had a point in that all out attacker sets pack a punch.

Scizor - It's fine in B. People exaggerate the hell out of this for B+

Scolipede - Fine in B

Sharpedo (Mega) - Fine in B, disgusting cleaner

Tentacruel - This is in my eyes, a garbage mon. All of the utility it provides isn't even as hyped up as it is made out to be.

Zapdos - Fine here

B- Ranks

Bronzong - Fine here

Conkeldurr - Fine here

Feraligatr - Could probably drop. Tyrantrum is better than this honestly and this got hyped a lot when in practice I think it's a different story personally.

Gastrodon - Fine here

Houndoom (Mega) - I still think this is bad but it's gonna get hyped up about what it does in how it supposably can break all of its checks and counters out of some scenario that magically popped out of thin air. Abstain.

Infernape - fine here

Lucario - Fine here

Mandibuzz - Lame mon so team specific at this point sort of surviving in the fact it's better than most C+.

Sylveon - I guess this is ok for Specs set.
Tangrowth - Fine here. Nice pivot, good bulk with AV, decent power to boot with coverage options.
Toxicroak - Fine here, B is pushing it a bit I think just from my time using it.

Tyranitar (Mega) - This could honestly rise two subranks rofl but I'll hold off on that see how meta actually settles and see if people start getting the picture.

Tyrantrum - Fine here.

Feel free to reply to a specific part if you want a more detailed description of my thought process for an individual mon. I might not reply to you right away though, pretty tired.

More specifically

Garchomp (Mega) - No comment, the few times I've used it I think were terrible so not gonna base my judgement solely on those few instances for now.

You said this on june 2, and today's june 22. So unless you've been using the specific set above quite a bit these past 20 days then I don't think you have the right to pass judgement on it, you've said it yourself.
I'd like to see a better argument to keep it down than "overhyped," as far as rankings to there's no freaking way this should be below mcham; I (and others) have already outlined solid reasoning for that before.

EDIT: I've given raw numbers and everything, you're the one giving me nothing man....

 

[AM]

How is it being overhyped lol. show me a calc of something taking +2 attacks from it, then give me a good reason as to why 108/115/95 bulk can't get there vs defensive teams. If you can do those two things i'll literally hop off this "bandwagon" right now...
Don't forget the set to wall tho:

no counters hngh

Garchomp @ Garchompite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 20 Def / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance

I also do remember u saying this:


More specifically

You said this on june 2, and today's june 22. So unless you've been using the specific set above quite a bit these past 20 days then I don't think you have the right to pass judgement on it, you've said it yourself.
I'd like to see a better argument to keep it down than "overhyped," as far as rankings to there's no freaking way this should be below mcham; I (and others) have already outlined solid reasoning for that before.

Yeah I have been using the set. It's June 2 and today's June 22. So unless you're still riding on that roller coaster that all the ranking guys have already disagreed with in our convos then I don't think you need to get riled up over absolutely nothing as always n_n

 

[pika pal]

My main contention is that whether or not Mega Garchomp can move up, Mega Medicham doesn't have enough over it to be a full Sub Rank above it. So if Garchomp can't move up, I'd elect for Mega Medicham to drop to B, using the same points my last post on the topic touched on.

 

[procrastinat]

Yeah I have been using the set. It's June 2 and today's June 22. So unless you're still riding on that roller coaster that all the ranking guys have already disagreed with in our convos then I don't think you need to get riled up over absolutely nothing as always n_n

I don't want to be disrespectful, but if there's a good reason as to why Mega Garchomp shouldn't move up, then please say what it is. Everyone who has posted in support of Mega Garchomp rising to B+ have made decent arguments as to why they feel MegaChomp should move up. All you've said is that it's "Being overhyped" and stated no reasons as to why besides the fact that you haven't had much success with it.

 

[AM]

I don't want to be disrespectful, but if there's a good reason as to why Mega Garchomp shouldn't move up, then please say what it is. Everyone who has posted in support of Mega Garchomp rising to B+ have made decent arguments as to why they feel MegaChomp should move up. All you've said is that it's "Being overhyped" and stated no reasons as to why besides the fact that you haven't had much success with it.

Considering I had like a good hour discussion with Srn about it in the OU room and I know no matter what I say people will bring up its base stats or some silly idea it's self independent, and throw around calcs left and right I don't even see the point anymore. The notion that a group agreement all of a sudden equals it being right when ranking team discussed it and pretty much agreed that M-Garchomps abilities on paper is an entirely different story in practice, I'd rather not. I can spend comment after comment trying to explain it but if I'm being perfectly honest it won't matter. The debate will come to a dead halt with essays after essays of exaggeration and biased anyways.

 

[Baharoth]

You may think that Clefable might actually counter it but when it has her leftovers knocked off isn't all that fine and dandy.

Its a fact that phys def clef hardcounters Weavile (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO), but that wasn't my point. My point was that a life orb Attacker who has literally nothing going for him but offensive presence can't even reliably beat a mixed wall with low defensive stats to begin with. What you say about knocking off lefties and go for the rolls next time is true but its still just a 43% chance and it means you have to get this frail shit in twice without dying which is difficult enough.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Its a fact that phys def clef hardcounters Weavile (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO), but that wasn't my point. My point was that a life orb Attacker who has literally nothing going for him but offensive presence can't even reliably beat a mixed wall with low defensive stats to begin with. What you say about knocking off lefties and go for the rolls next time is true but its still just a 43% chance and it means you have to get this frail shit in twice without dying which is difficult enough.

You're neglecting the fact that Clefable is overloaded at times, and as such, will not always be at full health due to its requirement to pivot in and check a variety of Pokemon such as Kyurem-B, Mega Lopunny, and Keldeo. Magic Guard Clefable loses to Weavile when it has taken around 10% damage as Icicle Crash then 2HKOes, and all variants of Clefable hate switching into Knock Off as without Leftovers Clefable is stripped of its ability to reliably check aforementioned threats. Swords Dance Weavile is also a legitimate set that completely cleans out Clefable.

Weavile is A because of the rise in favourable metagame trends. These include Tornadus-T, seen from its rapid rise from A- to A+ and increased usage everywhere, the rise of Grass- and Psychic-types such as Serperior and Reuniclus - especially the latter because Weavile is a nice Pursuit user as well. Garchomp and Mega Altaria happened as well, and Weavile stood out as one of the only physical attackers able to navigate around defensive Garchomp in one hit without taking any recoil, and with Ice Shard can revenge kill Mega Altaria. Offensive teams are also very common now which Weavile thrive against and on as well. Weavile shouldn't be moved down from A unless unfavourable metagame trends happen.

 

[TPP]

I wanna get some opinions on Kyurem-Black for A.

This thing gives problems to almost every team. It's a powerful monster and its common set of Fusion Bolt, Ice Beam, Earth Power and HP Fire (which is becoming a bit more common) leaves very few options to safely switch in. Most of the time people will have to rely on revenge killing it, or wearing it down with Stealth Rock. It's able to 1-2HKO nearly everything, with the most common exceptions Clefable, Mega Slowbro and Chansey. It actually has good bulk with 125 / 100 / 90 and it's able to give HO, Stall and Balance (especially this one) a hard time. I probably should give more reasons, but this is more of a question rather than a promotion, so if I missed anything, let me know.

 

[Tushar Cool]

Charizard-mega-Y for A+

This is one of the most powerful wallbreaker, Modest Fire blast can faint almost every pokemons which are resisted by solar beam and focus blast,Solar beam allows this monster to faint all the water types except Tentacruel,Focus blast give this monster much needed coverage against Heatran and Tyranitar,the only problem is its average speed so what about Tailwind zard Y it can late game sweep the only counters to it are lati twins ,chansey,goodra and dragagle so I think it deserves A+ Rank.

 

[procrastinat]

Considering I had like a good hour discussion with Srn about it in the OU room and I know no matter what I say people will bring up its base stats or some silly idea it's self independent, and throw around calcs left and right I don't even see the point anymore. The notion that a group agreement all of a sudden equals it being right when ranking team discussed it and pretty much agreed that M-Garchomps abilities on paper is an entirely different story in practice, I'd rather not. I can spend comment after comment trying to explain it but if I'm being perfectly honest it won't matter. The debate will come to a dead halt with essays after essays of exaggeration and biased anyways.

I think you're mistaking me for Srn when speaking about bias. I never stated that a group agreement overrules the ranking team. All I asked for was a reason for it not to move up, besides the Pro-rise side being "Biased" and "Overhyping" it, and if the entire ranking team has used it and don't see B+ potential, that's a good enough reason for me. I have used it, and I do see B+ potential, but if all of our arguments have failed to convince the ranking team that it should be B+, then don't move it up. I'm not going to argue with you after you've made your decision.

 

[Ksh13]

Charizard-mega-Y for A+

This is one of the most powerful wallbreaker, Modest Fire blast can faint almost every pokemons which are resisted by solar beam and focus blast,Solar beam allows this monster to faint all the water types except Tentacruel,Focus blast give this monster much needed coverage against Heatran and Tyranitar,the only problem is its average speed so what about Tailwind zard Y it can late game sweep the only counters to it are lati twins ,chansey,goodra and dragagle so I think it deserves A+ Rank.

Lati@s, Goodra, Chansey, and Dragalge are not the only counters to Zard Y. Specially defensive Talonflame, AV Snorlax, Zard X if you are not running Dragon Pulse, and Blissey also work (and proably some more). It does not have that many proper counters, but it has plenty of checks. Its not-too-good speed lets it be easily revenge killed by many. Tailwind is not really that good. Since the turn you set it up also counts, you only have 3 turns of boosted speed. Three turns won't give you time to get a full sweep in singles. Charizard Y is still good, but not A+ material.
Also, punctuation would definetly help your post, some of the parts towards the end are knd of confusing.

 

[Tushar Cool]

Lati@s, Goodra, Chansey, and Dragalge are not the only counters to Zard Y. Specially defensive Talonflame, AV Snorlax, Zard X if you are not running Dragon Pulse, and Blissey also work (and proably some more). It does not have that many proper counters, but it has plenty of checks. Its not-too-good speed lets it be easily revenge killed by many. Tailwind is not really that good. Since the turn you set it up also counts, you only have 3 turns of boosted speed. Three turns won't give you time to get a full sweep in singles. Charizard Y is still good, but not A+ material.
Also, punctuation would definetly help your post, some of the parts towards the end are knd of confusing.

Stallbreaker talon can take 2 fire blasts?,Zard y can kill slower mons and later tailwind during late game and can sweep 3 pokemons which means 50% of the team, it has a lot of checks but tailwind allows it to out speed its checks and I think it 2hko's zard X using focus blast...

 

[TPP]

Stallbreaker talon can take 2 fire blasts?,Zard y can kill slower mons and later tailwind during late game and can sweep 3 pokemons which means 50% of the team, it has a lot of checks but tailwind allows it to out speed its checks and I think it 2hko's zard X using focus blast...

Talonflame can spam priority roost to stall out the sun, meaning Fire Blast won't do as much and Talonflame is free to set up. If you have Tailwind, what move don't you have?

 

[Jaroda]

Considering I had like a good hour discussion with Srn about it in the OU room and I know no matter what I say people will bring up its base stats or some silly idea it's self independent, and throw around calcs left and right I don't even see the point anymore. The notion that a group agreement all of a sudden equals it being right when ranking team discussed it and pretty much agreed that M-Garchomps abilities on paper is an entirely different story in practice, I'd rather not. I can spend comment after comment trying to explain it but if I'm being perfectly honest it won't matter. The debate will come to a dead halt with essays after essays of exaggeration and biased anyways.

Well, that's the thing. None of us were privy to that discussion. I don't think claiming bias for or against a mon's spot is productive, or relevant, if the person still has a substantive argument. I don't think he's saying that the team doesn't have the authority to change the rankings obviously, but that if they did disagree with certain reasoning, I'd be very curious to know what they were. No need to write an essay or anything, just wondering what is holding him back. But I think people don't necessarily object to the ranking some things are in as much as they are with their ranking in comparison to something else. Example being many people including myself disagreeing with M-Medicham being higher than M-Garchomp.

 

[Prinz]

Lati@s, Goodra, Chansey, and Dragalge are not the only counters to Zard Y. Specially defensive Talonflame, AV Snorlax, Zard X if you are not running Dragon Pulse, and Blissey also work (and proably some more). It does not have that many proper counters, but it has plenty of checks. Its not-too-good speed lets it be easily revenge killed by many. Tailwind is not really that good. Since the turn you set it up also counts, you only have 3 turns of boosted speed. Three turns won't give you time to get a full sweep in singles. Charizard Y is still good, but not A+ material.
Also, punctuation would definetly help your post, some of the parts towards the end are knd of confusing.

TBH I don't really care if Charizard Y deserves A or A+ rank (both are suitable for it I guess), just wanted to say that I don't really agree with your "counter" list of Charizard Y. I mean they are all top counters but Goodra barely exists in OU now, Snorlax never existed and Chansey is Chansey, a mon too passive for the current metagame and that really only fits in Stall teams. Lati twins are good, but are extremely Pursuit bait and have to Roost if they switch into Charizard's Fire Blast (and you know that Tyranitar / Bisharp are switching in as they Roost so yeah). I agree that Tailwind is a poor choice on Charizard Y tho. It's meant to break balanced buildings, not offensive ones and Roost is just too good to not use it.

 

[Ksh13]

TBH I don't really care if Charizard Y deserves A or A+ rank (both are suitable for it I guess), just wanted to say that I don't really agree with your "counter" list of Charizard Y. I mean they are all top counters but Goodra barely exists in OU now, Snorlax never existed and Chansey is Chansey, a mon too passive for the current metagame and that really only fits in Stall teams. Lati twins are good, but are extremely Pursuit bait and have to Roost if they switch into Charizard's Fire Blast (and you know that Tyranitar / Bisharp are switching in as they Roost so yeah). I agree that Tailwind is a poor choice on Charizard Y tho. It's meant to break balanced buildings, not offensive ones and Roost is just too good to not use it.

Goodra, Lati@s, Dragalge, and Chansey originally came on the "counter list" from the post I qouted. Snorlax was something I took from Charizard's dex analysis in OU, might be it's non-existent, but it is still a good counter, though maybe not relevant.