ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)

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Okay making some changes and also maybe suggestions for discussion...

Also stop complaining if I don't move something right away. Seriously it's annoying.

Mega swampert (A to A+)
Doublade (B+ to A-)
Blissey (B- to B) Your prayers have been answered
Moltres (B- to B+)


You guys mentioned a bit of other stuff, but not enough significant discussion has been made for me to do anything.

Some things worth discussing:
Blissey (B to B+ [note that I just rose Blissey to B, but it might be worth more])
Mega amph (A to A-)
Chesnaught (A- to B+)
Mandibuzz (A- to B+)
Mega Sharpedo (A- to A)
Tyrantrum (A- to B+)
Shuckle (B to ??)
Toxicroak (B to B+ or A-)
 
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Nomming Noivern to B+. Noivern is a 'mon that I've been using recently and it's much better than fucking Shuckle, Sharpedo, Pangoro, and Alomomola. LO Noivern hits incredibly hard (It's Hurricane is stronger than Pidgeot) and is faster than a lot of the tier. Because of this it completely dismantles offense as they are often times forced to sack a mon to revenge kill it. Taunt + Roost Noivern helps it shut down walls that would otherwise recover up on it leaving them weakened for the next time it comes in. It's typing is also much better defensively than Pidgeot because it resists Fighting, Fire, and Water while Pidgeot resists Ghost. Fucking Ghost. That's the only resist it gets that Noivern doesn't get too. The only really relevant Ghost-type in the tier is Chandelure who's Ghost-STAB is weaker than it's Fire-STAB anyway. I think maybe Noivern's greatest niche over Pidgeot though, is the fact that it's not a Mega and can run an item. It can be Specs + Switcheroo and cripple your Snorlax, it can be that Super Fang set and take out 50% from your Blissey, and it can also be LO 4 Attacks. Noivern is also not just deadweight if your opponent has an Aerodactyl and you can't score a lucky confusion on it. It has two good abilities (I can't deny that No Guard is incredibly good for Pidgeot but I don't think that makes Pidgeot so much better than Noivern) in Frisk and Infiltrator. Frisk lets you scout your opponents item (This is useful for mons like Mienshao, Krook, Hydreigon, and Salamence that can be a plethora of sets) while Infiltrator lets you bypass an opponents Sub or Screens.

Sorry for paragraph but I really think Noivern should move up to B+.
 
I'm tempted to support dropping Tyrantrum to B+. Yeah, CB Head Smash is a wrecking ball waiting to happen (when it hits, 80% accuracy sure is a bummer at times, but whatever) but that Scurge of Dr. Malcom is so slow at times, and that special defense just blows. If you can get it in safe, yeah it can hit like a truck, but you could say the same about Darm, also B+. Haven't had much experience with other sets, but I can't imagine it doing what it does best (wallbreaking, imo) without Band. And I can't say too much for the physical bulk either. Fire resist is very nice, fighting and ground weaknesses sure are not.
 
Tyrantrum can actually switch into things, which is a pretty big difference from Darm, who literally has nothing it wants to switch in on.

I'll write up a longer post tomorrow morning, but on quick review:

Some things worth discussing:
Blissey (B to B+ [note that I just rose Blissey to B, but it might be worth more]) Support.
Mega amph (A to A-) Eh, I could go either way... it's not the monster it once was, but it's still a pretty solid Mega for balance and stall.
Chesnaught (A- to B+) Support.
Mandibuzz (A- to B+) Do not support. The specially defensive set is a monster, and it's just a tremendously good pivot and stallbreaker. I'd say it's on the same level as much of A-.
Mega Sharpedo (A- to A) Yeah, this has been a long time coming. Strongly support.
Tyrantrum (A- to B+) Could go either way, will discuss more tomorrow.
Shuckle (B to ??) Screw Shuckle.
Toxicroak (B to B+ or A-) Support to B+, probably not A-.

I'll add some more actual thoughts tomorrow.
 
For Tyrantrum there's not a whole lot for me to say besides what I said before:

LeoLancaster said:
Tyrantrum's defensive typing is not deplorable, it quad resists Fire which makes it an excellent check to Entei when paired with a Heal Bell user, and it resists Flying which makes it an excellent Crobat check. Could it be better? Sure, but Tyrantrum is an offensive Pokemon, it doesn't need to have an great defensive typing to succeed.

It's susceptibility to special attacks is a hurdle, but on the flipside it has a base Defense stat of 119, allowing it to, as mentioned before, check physical Fire- and Flying-types, and be somewhat difficult to force out by physical attackers. For example, Mega Aerodactyl's Earthquake does max 75%. Could it's defensive stats be better? Sure, but again, Tyrantrum is an offensive Pokemon, it's defensive capabilities are not the primary way it succeeds.

Finally, you're really underestimating the power of Choice Band Head Smash. It's literally bring a Rock resist or die. You don't need a deep movepool (although having coverage options such as Earthquake and Superpower, as well as a secondary STAB, is nice), a sky-high attack stat (although 121 is pretty great already), or great STAB coverage (even though Rock is usually enough by itself) when you 2HKO Cresselia with a neutral hit. And to top it all off, you can patch up that mediocre Speed stat with Rock Polish, and still 2HKO Cress and Suicune with just a bit of chip damage and a Life Orb.

Obviously Tyrantrum does have it's flaws, such as it's low Speed and, as you said, poor Special Defense, but you're overvaluing these flaws and ignoring the sheer spammability and power of Head Smash.
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Also, re: Darm comparison. Darmanitan has a lot more competition for its role as a Fire-type wallbreaker in the form of Entei. Tyrantrum is the only super-powered Rock-type wallbreaker in the tier.
 
I'm gonna toss my hat in the ring and say Tyrantrum should stay at A- rank. Tyrantrum has a very nice role that I like to call "atomic bomb with sick resists and good defense" patent pending But yeah, Tyrantrum fills a lot of super important roles for offense and is honestly one of the mvps every time I use it. What it does is simple, it clicks Head Smash. However, this is critical to hyper offenses central strategy. Nothing comes in on this aside from like Krook, Pert, Aggron, and a few others. It also acts as a crucial fire and bird check. Hyper Offense in particular is very vulnerable to fast things spamming their STAB moves. Examples are Entei, Crobat, and even Darmanitan. It's tough to beat these sometimes but being able to drop a nuke every time that they click their STAB is highly favorable. It's bulk is nothing to scoff at from the physical side either, playing with it for awhile really lets you see those random physical hits it takes thanks to its high base defense. Anyways, I think it should stay A- because of its strength and raw power alongside its resistances and solid bulk. There are definitely downsides but for me, the pros outweigh the cons.
 
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Blissey from B to B+: Agree. I'm not going to be stating all of Blissey's positive values since countless others have done it before me to simply get this thing to B, however, I believe Blissey should be moved up due to how good it is at its one role. Yes, it's only usable on stall teams, but looking at B+ I believe this alone is enough to move it up there. Froslass, who is in B+, for example, is only good on offensive archetypes but performs its role very well thus giving it a place in B+ and the same can be said about Blissey and stall.

Mega Ampharos from A to A-: Honestly, I'm not too sure on this one atm but I'm leaning more towards it moving down. While it does have a cool unique typing that gives it quad Electric resistances and a Flying / Fire resistance, it's not all too great imo considering it has one set, it slow, lacks recovery outside Rest and both its STAB attacks have immunities. Also, comparing Ampharos to other Pokemon in A, I'd say it's one of the worst there atm, and I believe it's on par with some of the A- Pokemon.

Chesnaught from A- to B+: "A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the UnderUsed metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits." I don't think Chesnaught lives up to the description so I believe it should move down. Chesnaught just doesn't wall as much as I'd like it to, has 4MSS, and weaknesses to common types in Psychic, Flying and Fire.

I'm not too experienced with Mandibuzz, Shuckle, or Toxicroak so nothing to say about them.
 
Kreme said:
Mega Ampharos from A to A-: Honestly, I'm not too sure on this one atm but I'm leaning more towards it moving down. While it does have a cool unique typing that gives it quad Electric resistances and a Flying / Fire resistance, it's not all too great imo considering it has one set, it slow, lacks recovery outside Rest and both its STAB attacks have immunities. Also, comparing Ampharos to other Pokemon in A, I'd say it's one of the worst there atm, and I believe it's on par with some of the A- Pokemon.
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huh? it definitely doesn't have only one set, i don't know where you're getting that from lol. offensive sets with focus blast / heal bell in the last slot and agility sets are both perfectly viable on most team archetypes, considering how good it is as a pivot thanks to its amazing defensive typing. yeah both ur stabs have types that they can't hit, so what? while ground types and fairy types are both on the same team if we're talking balance (or hyper offense with nido / krook and puff if you wanna count that), not one ground-type likes switching in on a dpulse coming from offensive ampharos, and most fairies that arent florges or whimsi arent too fond of letting it take a shit ton from vswitch either, and even then you're still keeping up offensive momentum by getting chip damage on the fairies that actually can switch into it by getting a little bit of damage off and then going into a check for free. i also don't get why you're not at least mentioning amph's positives either, because as far as i'm concerned taking on mega pidgeot, entei, and a bunch of other offensive mons is a godsend for balanced teams because, even though it doesn't have recovery outside rest as you mentioned, it has the bulk to sponge off those hits more than enough times to burn off the sleep talk turns while dealing damage and then just resting again. granted, this doesn't happen every time if your opponent plays well or stalk rolls just decided to take a dump on you, but i really don't think the points you brought up are enough for it to get a move down.

sry if my logic's flawed here or something, been running on little sleep. will comment on the other noms later, but i wanted to give a lil spoiler n say that milotic and vaporeon's ranking should probably be switched
 
Click the show/hide tabs to see my reasoning for these choices.
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Blissey (B to B+) Support
I strongly support this one. Blissey can basically do one thing incredibly well, and that thing is walling almost every special attacker in the entire tier. It's been a major component of stall teams since its creation way back in Gen 2, and I don't see its viability (on stall at least) fading for a long time.
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Mega amph (A to A-) Support
I don't have too much experience with Mega Ampharos, but I'm going to support this one because of a number of factors. Firstly, there's the whole mega opportunity cost thing that we bring up all the time, but secondly, the meta has really not been kind to this 'mon. Its main use is checking Mega Pidgeot, which it definitely does really well, but it still struggles with many common pokemon, like Mamoswine, Krookodile, Feraligatr (with Ice Punch), Hydreigon, and Florges. Its poor speed and mediocre typing can sometimes hold it back, which is why I think A- is a perfect fit.
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Chesnaught (A- to B+) Support
I support this nomination. Chesnaught is a pretty cool Pokemon that can mess with most of the tier's physical attackers, but I doubt that it should stay A-. Its typing gives it a lot of common weaknesses that even its bulk can't help it with (Psychic, Fire, Flying, etc), and it has enormous 4MSS, limiting the role it can play as a team supporter.
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Mandibuzz (A- to B+) Don't Support
I don't support this one. Mandibuzz is, in many ways, one of the best utility 'mons that this tier has to offer right now. Between Taunt, U-turn, Defog, Knock Off, Toxic, and Foul Play, this bulky buzzard can definitely bring something to most balance and even stall teams. Its specially defensive set in particular excels at stopping some bulkier sweepers, most notably the dangerous Reuniclus. It should be kept where it is.
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Mega Sharpedo (A- to A) Support
Mega Sharpedo to A is an obvious support. Mega Sharpedo is just really good at smashing through offense and even balance later in games thanks to its power, good coverage, and slightly upgraded bulk, which allows it to stomach some priority moves that its base form folds to. You have to get rid of a few problem 'mons (mostly Whimsicott) for this thing to sweep, but it is incredibly good at what it does.
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Tyrantrum (A- to B+) Don't Support
Tyrantrum should stay A-. It, too, has a mediocre defensive typing, but it hits far too hard to be passed up. It can 2HKO some of the bulkiest stuff in the tier (Cresselia, Suicune, etc). It's got a pretty good movepool as well, and its typing is just good enough to provide crucial resistances for offense. I don't support this nomination for those reasons.
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Shuckle (B to ??) N/A
I don't really know enough to respond here. Shuckle for S+, I guess.

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Toxicroak (B to B+ or A-) Support
I support Toxicroak to B+. I love this thing, and its ability to dodge scald and its annoying side-effect entirely. Dry Skin combined with its decent offenses and STAB combination makes Toxicroak bound to be at least halfway decent in this tier, and it certainly delivers. Remove Doublade and a few flying-types, and Toxicroak can do a number on offensive and defensive teams alike. I won't nom for A- because of Toxicroak's mediocre bulk and typing, as well as the fact that I think there are better Fighting-types out there (Cobalion, Heracross, Mienshao, etc).
 
Disagreeing with moving Mandi down. I've been using its specially defensive set on a balanced team and it's performed exceptionally well. It is so specially bulky that I've found that its SR weakness does not hinder it that much at all; it can still switch into even the likes of Hydrei's Draco Meteor and Roost off the damage quite comfortably. It isn't even 2HKOed by defensive Florges, and this is from a Pokemon that has 112 base Special Attack. The amount of utility it provides is incredible with Knock Off, Taunt, and Defog, and it's an amazing asset to have against defensive teams as it can prevent them from setting up hazards, cripple their walls, and remove any hazards that do go up too. Overcoat shuts down Rose and Amoonguss as well.

The physically defensive set, meanwhile, is amazing against offensive teams in conjunction with Foul Play. It works quite similarly to physically defensive Umbreon, being able to take even the most brutal physical hits and OHKO them back with their own power. The only downside to it that I've experienced is it being complete set up bait for Cobalion and Lucario, which can spell the end against offensive teams if it's late-game and the rest of my team has been worn down. It's also vulnerable to status, and it's annoying being burned by Scald when trying to prevent defensive Water-types from using support moves, so I paired it with Florges to heal any poisons or burns it is afflicted by.

Overall, considering its few downsides and its ability to provide tremendous team support, I think it fits quite well in A-.

Agree with moving Chesnaught down, it is a beast physically but it is really hindered by its weakness to the secondary typing of common physical attackers, such as Flying (Mega Aero), Ice (Mamoswine, Mega Abomasnow), Poison (Mega Bee). Several other physical attackers who it could potentially wall also carry coverage moves that can significantly hurt it (Ice Punch Gatr and Mega Pert, Fire Blast Salamence). I think B+ is the ideal place for it.

Toxicroak moving up is an interesting one. The ability to heal up using Scald can't be understated with the move everywhere, and I'm a huge fan of the bulky Swords Dance set which can be hell for defensive teams to face as it can continuously heal itself with Drain Punch. However it does come up short against quite a few Pokemon, namely bulky Psychics and Ghosts, and Mega Aggron. An all-out offensive set with Life Orb can break through the aforementioned Pokemon though, seriously a +2 LO Gunk Shot packs insane power:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 308-364 (69.3 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This set is a lot frailer though, and the lack of Black Sludge can affect its capability to tank random Ice Beams and the like.

Against offense though, Toxicroak fares pretty poorly in my experience. It can't set up due to its frailty and its Speed is not great. Sucker Punch is also not a reliable priority move at all, and a lot of common offensive Pokemon such as Lucario, Hydreigon, and Krookodile resist it. All things considered, I think its positive attributes are worthy of a rise to B+, but A- is a step too far.
 
meh thoughts.

Amph to A-: I'm going to have to shoot this one down. For one thing mega amph most certainly does not have one set...You can go from rest talk to heal bell 3 attacks, to agility 3 attacks, to even 4 attacks if you want the coverage. The main two have to be rest talk and heal bell 3 attacks imo and those sets are fantastic because ampharos can fulfill multiple roles in those sets. With access to heal bell it can act as a bulk attacker and a cleric at the same time. Rest talk acts as a really nice pivot that can sustain longevity and continuously check the threats it needs to with rest. Its typing is not mediocre by any means as it is really good both offensively and defensively. Defensively, some of the major threats it checks are entei and pidgeot which are extremely important because those two break balance like its their day job. Electric dragon is nothing to scoff at offensively either. Florges does not even like taking T bolts from it anymore since any florges I've seen is running bold now. And ground types sure as hell does not like getting popped with a dragon pulse either so I don't really see where people are thinking that its typing is mediocre because it simply just...isn't.

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 232 HP / 24 SpD Florges: 130-154 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Not as good of a switchin anymore, especially if hazards are up.

Blissey to B+: I'm not even going to say anything about the blob because this one is way overdue and people like Lapras! and Hogg have already stated everything that I would just be reiterating so lets just bump it and be done with it.

Mandibuzz to B+: Once again, no. Mandibuzz simply just provides way to much support to move down to B+. The only real downsides to using it are the fact that it is prone to status and with cobalion's emergance and lucarios resurgance, (heh rhymed) it cant be fodder for those mons. However, you simply just cannot overlook the amount of support this thing provides to teams all at once between knock off, taunt, and defog. No way mandi should move down. As said above, the spD set is a monster.

Tyrantrum to B+: see YABO ^^^^^

Chesnaught to B+: I honestly dont know. It can really be a pain in the ass for offense tbh because if it can get in on something it walls and start spiking, the damage really racks up on offensive builds. It can actually wall mamo 1v1 which I guess is cool, but you are left at around 40% hp from my experiment with Cactrune so you are left kinda weakened and hindered for the rest of the battle. I don't really see it that much either so I honestly would not mind which direction it goes.
 
Alright, as promised, here are some more detailed responses...

Blissey (B to B+): SUPPORT
Yeah, B+ is definitely the right place for Blissey. This has been covered heavily before, but Blissey is just such a key part of one fairly major playstyle (stall), where she can fulfill a huge swath of roles - special wall, rocks setter, status support, cleric, etc. There's really nothing else that replaces her, and while it's certainly possible to build a stall team without Blissey, the degree to which it eases teambuilding can't be stated enough. It's not for every team, of course, which is why I don't think it should go up to the As, but I think it's one of the top mons in B and deserves to be B+.

Chesnaught (A- to B+): SUPPORT
Chesnaught just isn't that reliable of a wall or spikes setter in this meta. Many of the top physical threats in the tier, such as M-Aero, Entei, Feraligatr and Mamoswine can power through it, and the tendency lately to run speed on Suicune has made its anti-Suicune set less useful. Spikes are great in this meta, so it seems a bit odd that I'm suggesting dropping a spikes setter down, but I just don't think this is nearly as reliable as the rest of A-. Drop please.

Mandibuzz (A- to B+): DO NOT SUPPORT
See above. Mandibuzz is one of the best defensive pivots in the tier. It can be a bulky defogger, a stallbreaker or a straight up wall, sometimes taking on multiple roles at the same time. In particular, its specially defensive set with Taunt beats a good chunk of the major special attackers of the tier. It's also one of the few things that stall and semi-stall can take on that reliably beats almost every Reuniclus set. Keep this A- please.

Mega Sharpedo (A- to A): SUPPORT
For whatever reason, people seem to forget about Sharpedo for a while. Then someone makes a popular team, people remember that this thing just takes lives, and it's everywhere.... and then it just drops off the map again for a while. Fuck that. M-Pedo is ridiculously good. It eats offensive teams for lunch. It revenge kills. It wallbreaks. It sweeps. For a one-dimensional 'mon, it actually has several ways of getting past its usual "counters" (Poison Jab, Destiny Bond, Substitute, mixed sets, etc.). It puts in good work in almost every game it's used. Move this monster up.

Toxicroak (B to B+ or A-): SUPPORT TO B+
Toxicroak has a lot of potential. It has a neat niche as basically the only physical sweeper that can both switch into Scalds and use priority (sorry Hera :(). The fact that a lot of teams rely on bulky fairies like physically defensive Florges as their main fighting check makes it especially potent. It's definitely on the level of things like Haxorus and Absol. On the other hand, it has some really notable drawbacks that prevent it from rising to A-. For all that its typing is really cool, its mediocre defenses and terribly common weaknesses to common attacking types like Fire, Flying and Ground really hold it back. B+ feels like a good place for it.

Abstaining right now on Tyrantrum and M-Amph, since there are some pretty good arguments for moving and staying. I'm inclined to say no to both dropping, but I want to think a bit more. Shuckle should definitely drop, but I'm not sure if it should drop to C or just drop off the face of the earth (I'm leaning toward the latter). When I get some decent thoughts on these three I'll post them.
 
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Chesnaught: Support. It's still a good Pokemon, especially with Mega Sharpedo on the rise and being able to check non-Ice Punch Feraligatr, but its severely let down by it's poor Special Defense, common weaknesses, and bad 4MSS. It also loses to, what in my opinion, is the best Defogger in the tier in Crobat. It's also a free switch to Salamence and Entei, which can easily set up (if lacking Leech Seed) or fire off a Sacred Fire, respectively.

Mega Ampharos: Do not support. It's not as amazing as it was in the Victini meta way back in the day, but it still checks pretty much every single Flying- or Fire-type in the tier. Also, nothing in S rank can switch into it easily. It's defensive set is still in my opinion a great check to a lot of physical attackers too, as it has good enough natural bulk.

Shuckle: definitely needs to drop to C rank or off the rankings. Sticky Web is just too hard to keep up with good hazard removal from the likes of Fatmence, Crobat, Aerodactyl(?), Empoleon, Forretress, Blastoise, Tentacruel, and others. Yeah, Sticky Webs are good to have, but they're hard to set up once in a match and keep them there throughout. Dedicated Sticky Webs teams (like slow wallbreakers and stuff) are just too easy to beat with the click of Defog or Rapid Spin. If you really want Sticky Webs, use a team that's decent otherwise with Galvantula which can set up Webs if it has a free turn to do so.
 
toxicroak for B+ my reason: toxicroak serves the same purpose as helioisk(countering suicune), however toxicroak has the extremly useful sucker punch in the for of priority leaving it a very good answer to one of its checks like crobat, and can pick off pokes like assuming you wore them down already, proving him to be a cleric sweeper as well. I say b+ only because he does have a lot or answers as well such as doublade, krookodile, and gligar which are fairly common. Toxicroak is slept on and also has other sets that could be run like sub Sd with knock off to lure a doublade for your snorlax. With out a doubt deserves a bump.
 
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Most of my thoughts on these recent noms have already been stated by others but I would like to further bolster the Toxicroak for B+ because unlike Heliolisk, it can switch into the one of the best bulky waters in the tier that is Mega Blastoise as it resists Dark Pulse, Aura Sphere, and heals off the water STAB. I can say from experience that the presence of Toxicroak makes Blastoise a liability unless you carry Ice Beam which doesn't really do that much considering how frail it is. It also can serve as an emergency Beedrill check by resisiting all moves except Drill Run if it carries it and can sucker punch it. However there are some hard counters to it that keep it out of A-, particularly Mega Swampert which you NEVER want to give free switches into.
 
Mega Blastoise also carries Dragon Pulse, which 2HKOs even with Drain Punch healing. The best you can do is cripple Blastoise with Gunk Shot, assuming it doesn't KO you outright on the switch or you don't miss Gunk Shot.
 
I honestly have never seen Dragon Pulse Blastoise and according to usage stats, only 8% carry it so I still believe Toxicroak is a very solid Blastoise switch in.
 
Went ahead and moved Shuckle to C because no one cares to write about it and I'm taking a personal estimate. Shuckle's pretty bad tbh.

Also just a side-note, dragon pulse blaster used to be more common than it is now. I don't really see them anymore. Generally anything between rapid spin/dark pulse/water pulse/aura sphere/ice beam is all that's common
 
I honestly think there are so many better options other than Dragon pulse. Ice beam hits the dragons which Dpulse would hit and more anyway. I GUESS if you were really weak to toxicroak then you could run it but its overall not too great when compared to his other options.

Moving right along I gotta agree that Toxicroak needs a bump up to B+ because its a fantastic check to bulky waters, and gives your team the all important scald immunity (seriously fuck scald) not only that but It has a good number of sets it can run (bulky, offensive sd, SUB PUNCH my favorite) not to mention the best or worst priority depending if the enemy has a setup move, sucker punch. As said before its not as good as the pokemon sitting in A- atm but its niche is really useful but not for every team.
I would also like to touch on The mandibuzz nomination too. This pokemon is a pain to deal with since not much is knocking it clean out. It takes moves from hydreigons and Salamences who decide they want to drop a draco (shoutout to pokeaim) even with rocks up if you run spdef set. It can also use its really good bulk to tank moves from the likes of Feraligatr and just knock it out with a foul play. Its not used too often but that doesn't mean it needs to drop since its a really good pivot that has access to defog which is really nice. Would love to see more of it and a bit of Amoonguss too since its also very nice.

Edit- Want to throw my vote for chesnaut to be dropped, Its not good.
 
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I support the rise of Toxicroak to B+. Dry skin is such a great ability since it stops the spamming of moves like Scald. Toxicroak can also attempt a sweep with Swords Dance boosted moves. While it doesnt have the greatest bulk or speed, it definetly deserves the rise to B+, but not A-. Also, Shuckle is terrible, so move him to C. EDIT: Okay, Shuckle's C now, lol. But I've been wondering, and can we get some Donphan discussion up in here? I don't know if he's good enough for B- anymore. He has a cool niche in Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin, but he has so many flaws and faces competition from other spinners and rockers. I know sometimes he is the only choice left for a spinner for some teams, but I don't know if he's B- material.
 
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Ok so while we are talking about those that Omfuga brought up, Imma bring to the table a new nomination (and please don't shoot me) but here it goes...

camerupt-mega.gif


Mega Camel C ----> B- / B

Now hear me out, while I understand we have better Megas I truly feel like this Mega should move up for a few reasons. The biggest one is the fact that this this has little switchins with the right moves. With its STABs, it can hit a ton of things very hard...

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 249-294 (62 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 200 HP / 56+ SpD Vaporeon: 204-240 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 152-179 (46.7 - 55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 144-171 (47.8 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 202-238 (60.6 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 220-261 (49.5 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 324-384 (87 - 103.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 265-313 (85.2 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 192-226 (53.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Milotic: 186-220 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Mandibuzz: 217-256 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-H: 131-154 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 210-247 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 159-187 (49.5 - 58.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 159-187 (49.5 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

And while this thing needs help finding switch-ins, once it is in, something is taking quite a bit of damage. Sadly, its STABs are walled by Dragon / Flying types, which is where Hidden Power Ice comes in...

252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 376-444 (113.5 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 167-197 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (For comparison so HP Ice may not be needed but is still great coverage)

252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 376-444 (120.9 - 142.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 166-196 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Again comparison calc)

Now while its main STAB can 2HKO them, it's main STAB also has only 8 PP and as such can be PP stalled fairly easily.

Now while it looks to be the most epic of wallbreakers, it is sadly 4x weak to the most common type in UU: Water. It also has a common weakness in Ground meaning that it can only switch in a few times or needs "free switches". It also has one of the worse Speed stats in Pokemon history sitting at an abysmal 20 meaning it must always take a hit first before it can hit back like a truck.

Overall, I feel it fits in B- or B and is too good to be stuck in C.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-244561165 (Mega Camel tanks an EQ from Donphan and is able to stop a Curselax sweep after I choked lol)

More to come I hope!
 
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I can imagine Mega Camerupt being really savage under Trick Room, too. Another niche in the pocket of the Krakatoa Camel. 70/100/105 bulk isn't too bad either.

Now, I think that speed is way too much of an inhibition to M-Camerupt. Yeah, it gets a lot of very sweet 2hkos, but even if it switches in, pretty much anything gets a shot off on the camel. If that shot happens to be named Scald, M-Camerupt is toast. Earthquakes do a lot of damage as well, so between the two, Camerupt is gonna be under a lot of pressure, and it's pretty likely to be whacked around.

That being said, being able to dunk super hard on stuff that usually aren't packing scald (Florges, Cress, Mandi, etc.) is pretty sweet, and all its other niches I think warrant it jumping up to B-, maybe B if someone who's not a scrublord like me comes up with better points.
 
ma thoughts
Blissey (B to B+) Support

Although I don't really play with Blissey, I've fought several over ladder and tours, and this fat pink blob is an easy blanket check for any Special attacker in UU. In well built stall teams is hard to bring cores down if they have wish/clerical support from this nurse paired with some other fat mons. She is a good at what she does, and she does better than anyone else. I really support this.

Mega Ampharos (A to A-) Support

Mega Ampharos requires more support to function well than other mons now listed in A Rank. It also struggles in a meta where the most common mon is Mamoswine, along with EQ coverage being in rise since Hippowdon left and things like Empoleon and Cobalion got time to shine. A- will fit Mega Amph fine right now.

Chesnaught (A- to B+) Support

I'm not really a Chesnaught user but I don't see it too often over ladder. Although it packs some nice resistances, specially as a Gatr counter, it does have some problems with its Flying, Poison, Fire and Ice weakness, all common types in UU. For now, B+ is fine, but I could see it going to B rank anytime.

Mandibuzz (A- to B+) DO NOT Support

Completely agree with Cactrune. Gosh it's hard to break this thing down :/

Mega Sharpedo (A- to A) DO NOT Support

I could see it going A, but I think A- fit Mega Pedo fine. It have some power on Crunch, but its Waterfall lacks power to break some crucial things. Since it's frail, it can't be used too much over a match, so it will be a 5-6 fight most of the time, until his clean job is done. Idk, I would even says it suffers competition from Regular LO Sharpedo, just because of the mega cost and because reg Sharpedo can be used several times over a match. I think A- fits fine, specially when RD Mega Swampert, who have a similar role, is on rising.
Tyrantrum (A- to B+) DO NOT Support

Good users have already made great points reasoning why it must remain A-. I've used it recently and it's fearsome. Keep it A-. that 80% acc tho

Mega Camerupt (C to B-) Support

I haven't played with it in UU itself, but I did have some good moments with it in RU and I can see it giving trouble to some UU mons. Fire/Ground isn't the best type defensively, but it can give real trouble offensive speaking. Even outside TR, it have some great uses: Sheer Force STAB Fire Blast is insane, even for resists (those NV's calcs are sick), and it can setup SR while forcing switch ins. I used to run a set of SR/Fire Blast/Earth Power/Toxic and it catches some many ppl off guard. A real cool mon that could have some love here in UU.

I dont really have an opinion about Toxicroak tho.

edit: can we please drop Drapion to C rank? after zam got OUt, it lost his most viable niche in UU meta. now it doesn't have much to offer that others 'mons won't do better.
 
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Mega Camerupt (C to B-) Support
This thing is pretty damn powerful between Sheer Force and its excellent STAB combination. Its movepool has just enough tools to allow Camerupt to do some serious damage to almost everything in the tier not named Snorlax or Blissey. However, it's got a lot holding it back (e.g. can't do as well outside of TR, gets shrekt by common attacking types), so I think B- is the best place for it right now.

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Drapion to (B- to C) Support
I'm not really sure as to what this guy's capable of. Drapion seems like it would only fit on stall as a good answer to stuff like Reuniclus, but frankly, there are other mons on Stall that do that job a lot better (e.g. Jellicent, Mandibuzz). I feel like there's not much reason for keeping Drapion B- with such dank mons as Fletchinder and Galvantula, which at least have niches.

Now, I hate to sound like a broken record here, but I'd like to re-submit a nomination that I've made before, which is...
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Granbull from B- to B
Reasoning: Granbull is still one of the better physical walls on stall these days, and the more I use it, the more effective it seems. Fairy-typing+Intimidate is a surefire way to make a 'mon good, and Granbull certainly delivers by checking key mons like Heracross, Honchkrow, Mienshao, Salamence, Haxorus, and even Mamoswine. It's also able to function as a cleric thanks to its access to Heal Bell, and even though it lacks reliable recovery, it can easily run a RestTalk set that still allows to blanket-check a lot of problematic stuff. Pair it with other typical stall Pokemon like Blissey and Alomomola, and Granbull does not disappoint.

P.S. I'm glad you guys like my formatting for opinions n_n
 
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