Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[zyzzyva]

How the fuck did this place turn into a shitstorm where people are arguing which wallbreaker is more broken? The past 2-3 pages are truly painful to read, with every second post either insulting someone or saying some other really dumb shit like using Crunch on Hoopa-U.

But anyway, I support the motion to drop hydreigon to b. Its scarf set doesn't hit particularly hard and just invites fairies to come in on it. Additionally, scarf Draco is always a double edged blade, because even if you get the kill, the opponent should have a number of ways to take advantage once you're stuck in at -2. The standard scarf set is also just free set up for MAlt, which means you can never use any of your actual attacks, lest you give Altaria a chance to just dd and win. Its wallbreaker set may be a superior option, but I don't see why hydreigon's wallbreaker set should keep it in the same tier as mega Hera and mega medicham, two far superior wallbreaker, even if they come with the cost of being megas.

 

[bludz]

Neither of those Pokemon is "far superior" to Hydreigon. I mean firstly those are physical wallbreakers which are susceptible to burns unlike Hydreigon. Furthermore they are lacking in the coverage department: Medicham will always be walled by Mega Sableye and Mew while Mega Heracross isn't breaking fat Altarias.

Hydreigon has a ridiculous amount of coverage making it less predictable. It also has access to moves like U-turn (better than Baton Pass on Medicham), Roost and a much better STAB type to abuse in Dark. It also can't be checked by blanket special walls with a usable physical movepool whereas Hera and Medi are purely physical.

In short I don't think this is a fair comparison (especially since Medicham might move up anyway lol). I don't use Hydreigon much but I do see an argument for Hoopa hurting its viability. Personally neutral on this right now but I'll say that special dark is harder to switch into than physical dark and Hydreigon still punches holes in teams quite well.

 

[Valmanway]

Pros of Hydreigon: Hydreigon has an interesting defensive presence for a wallbreaker, boasting 92 / 90 / 90 defenses, Levitate to brag Ground and Spikes immunities, and nice Dark, Ghost, Fire, Water, and Electric resistances with a Psychic immunity, giving it some decent opportunities to check or even switch into some things. While there are greater mixed wallbreakers out there in terms of power, 105 / 125 mixed offenses are still impressive, especially with great moves like Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Flash Cannon, Superpower, and Earth Power to abuse, and base 98 Speed lets it outrun plenty of walls and slow attackers (not a huge upgrade from Kyurem-B's base 95 Speed, but it's still notable). All of this means Hydreigon is very hard to switch into, as Fairy- and Ice-types don't want to take a Flash Cannon, Steel-types don't like Fire Blast and/or Earth Power, Chansey hates Superpower, and most everything else dislikes taking a STAB Draco Meteor. The Choice Scarf set isn't all that awful either, as it acts as a great revenge killer after Fairies are gone, working well against many offensive Pokemon, and U-turn is a neat little bonus that can net you an advantageous matchup when you predict a switch.

Cons of Hydreigon: Fairy-types are everywhere, Which means two things: 1) Hydreigon's Draco Meteors could wind up being duds, and 2) Hydreigon's 4x weakness to Fairy-type moves becomes rather glaring. This means Hydreigon is potentially a momentum killer as long as the opponent still has a Fairy-type on deck. Hydreigon is able to 2HKO many Pokemon, but is incapable of OHKOing most Pokemon, especially Fairy-types that can OHKO it, like Clefable, Mega Altaria, Mega Gardevoir, and Azumarill. This especially applies to the Choice Scarf set due to its move-lock effect, which is why it's such a risky and hard to use set in this metagame. When lacking a Choice Scarf, there are also many faster Pokemon that can take it out, like Mega Charizard X, Keldeo, Mega Lopunny, Latios, Mega Gardevoir, Weavile, regular and Mega Alakazam (Focus Blast is risky though), Mega Gallade, Mega Medicham, Scolipede, and Terrakion, further adding to its momentum killing flaw.

All honesty, I'm on board with Hydreigon dropping to B, as the Fairy-type issue is a big enough reason on its own imo, but being such exploitable revenge kill bait is just not something I can overlook. Drop Hydreigon to B Rank.

Man I hate typing on my phone. Sorry for any typos.

 

[Dread Arceus]

Hydreis just flat outclassed lol, can't imagine using it when Hoopa-U/The Bane of AM exists. Drop it to B, maybe even further. Gatr's SD set is cool, although DD seems pretty mediocre. I dont know if it's quite good enough to move up though, given its troubles with bulky waters. Meta, I stand by C-, trapping Latis is cool and so is Steel/Psychic, but neither of these are unique and needing this specific combination on a team is pretty rare. Lack of passive recovery on AV is also pretty lame

 

[AM]

TheEnder has been added to the ranking team.

 

[Always!]

Haven't posted here in a while, but I definitely support Metagross up to either C or C+. It's usage in checking a multitude of special attackers like Latios, Latias, Mega Alakazam, Alakazam and Pursuit-trapping them is extremely useful in conjunction with its amazing ability to act as a solid check to stuff like Mega Gardevoir and Clefable. With Fairy-types being extremely prominent and tough to take down in the metagame, having something as reliable as Metagross to remove and check these brings a unique niche that many teams enjoy, especially to pave way for other sweepers or anything that really enjoys weakening and removing Psychic and Fairy-types. With its movepool it also has access to things like Bullet Punch, which allow it to counteract certain metagame trends that are on the rise like Weavile. The increased bulk and ability to check things like Mega Gardevoir, which is extremely hard for some teams to do while also keeping some type of offensive presence is extremely handy, and having a reliable trapper that's also able to take on Keldeo with some luck (i.e don't get burnt by Scald) allows Metagross an easier time vs Opponents who wish to take advantage of common Pursuit-trappers such as Tyranitar, Bisharp, and Scizor. Compacting the roles of having Pursuit, the ability to check Fairies effectively, and having good matchups vs other Pokemon that may try to deal with being Pursuit-trapped like Keldeo make it a worthwhile addition to some teams that need its services, and I believe this warrants a higher placement.

Not without its flaws, slow speed being compounded on due to the need of bulk investment, being worn down with relative ease, failure to break common physical walls and supportive Pokemon such as Ferrothorn without giving up utility/coverage, and having competition with Bisharp for "Trapper that also kills Fairies" doesn't make it an absolute top tier threat, but I do believe that it's much more viable than what a D or C- ranking would imply. Sorry for splurging on or stating the obvious, but Metagross in itself is a one-dimensional threat that can't be expounded on too much outside of what it already does and what has been made obvious (why it's being nominated for a raise.).

 

[EternalSnowman]

I don't see why people are saying that Hoopa-U flat outclasses Hydreigon. Hydreigon's better physical defense and better speed-tier allows it to function better versus balance teams. Priority often favors the physical side (except Vacuum wave and HP flying Talonflame... lmao) so Hoopa-U suffers from that. I actually find that running Hoopa-U alongside Hydreigon is very effective since their checks and counters are easily worn down by each other and barring the U-Turn weakness of that core, it tends to rip apart many teams. Anyway, Hydreigon also has access to U-Turn and STAB Draco Meteor is still amazing. It has Iron Tail for many Fairy switch-ins (since they tend to be more specially defensive), and its speed tier may seem awkward but the common Adamant ZardX is outsped by it along with Kyurem-B, Lando-T and similar threats.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Hydreigon breaks through Fairy switch-ins with LO/Specs Flash Cannon anyway.

I don't agree with moving it down because it still maintains a good speed tier over Hoopa-U, Dragon STAB and access to U-turn for momentum. I'd also like to mention that Hydreigon itself is a good check to Hoopa-U, due to its resistances to Dark, Psychic and Fire, and being able to OHKO it.

 

[MikeDawg]

Very rarely are you going to want Hydreigon on your team. It faces heavy competition from Hoopa-U and Kyurem-B as fast-ish (as in, not Crawdaunt) wallbreakers with lovely coverage and lots of power. It faces heavy competition from Lati@s as a special attacking dragon.

The issue is that these mons are super useful to begin with. The latis are on near every team because of defog, their typing, their speed, and the power. Hydreigon is lacking in all but power/coverage (for example, it can't take mach punches from breloom or secret swords from keldeo).

Unfortunately for Hydreigon, Kyub and Hoopa have plenty of coverage and power. Their pros are pretty obvious (hoopa is strong, kyub is bulky, unpredictable, terravolt, etc., both have incredible mixed capabilities), so I won't go much into that.

Hydreigon has u-turn, stab special dark, decent bulk, and a weird speed tier to work off of. Cool things, but not enough to warrant a spot over the others generally.

In the end, Hydreigon really struggles to find a spot on a team. Almost all of the time, one of the above three will serve a greater purpose. Hoopa's release just pushed the nail into the coffin, being a new offensive dark type. That doesn't mean that it is unusable by any means, but becoming more niche and less practical certainly warrants a drop.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

We need to also remember that Hydreigon and KyuB more often than not run +spa/Atk nature where hoopa can run +speed and still run train on things. If those two run +spa/Atk nature's they aren't out speeding hoopa U and they are still slow wallbreakers as most wallbreakers are. So the speed is hardly something those two can capitalise on.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

We need to also remember that Hydreigon and KyuB more often than not run +spa/Atk nature where hoopa can run +speed and still run train on things. If those two run +spa/Atk nature's they aren't out speeding hoopa U and they are still slow wallbreakers as most wallbreakers are. So the speed is hardly something those two can capitalise on.

Despite Hoopa usually running a speed nature I was under the impression that most Hoopa do not run max speed (usually around 176). In this case the dragons still out speed. Even if Hoopa does run max speed, in Hydreigon's case it usually does run full speed with a neutral nature which still outspeeds max speed Hoopa with a positive nature. Kyurem is also capable of out speeding Hoopa with a neutral nature (although it's less common to see it running full speed)

 

[Flygonial]

We need to also remember that Hydreigon and KyuB more often than not run +spa/Atk nature where hoopa can run +speed and still run train on things. If those two run +spa/Atk nature's they aren't out speeding hoopa U and they are still slow wallbreakers as most wallbreakers are. So the speed is hardly something those two can capitalise on.

Hyreigon and Kyurem-B still outspeed a +Spe nature Hoopa-U. They're speed tier is undisputably something they have over Hoopa-U, even if their power may be a bit lackluster in comparison.

Edit: Ninja'd.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Then perhaps it's just me. I've never known hydreigon to run max speed and I've never not ran max speed on Hoopa U. Maybe my assumptions were wrong then. I've just always seen hydreigon with max spa and about 52 atk, however perhaps things have changed. If that is the case then I retract my statement.

 

[thesecondbest]

I assume that this is being nommed to drop because of Hoopa-U. But I'd argue that Hydreigon is better than Hoopa in certain roles. Because of access to roost and much better physical bulk, Hydreigon can run a set similar to Kyu-B (roost dragon pulse fire blast dark pulse) in that it is great vs balance. However, it's faster than Kyu-B. It has a pretty decent typing (even though I feel Kyu-B's is unfairly criticized). It has u-turn, which is really nice. It beats bisharp. The lati's don't have fire blast or u-turn. Hydreigon hasn't lost its niche to any mon. But where does its niche rank? That's the hard part, but I think a whole rank below latios and Hoopa-U is certainly low enough. It doesn't seem on par with the beasts in A-, but B+ seems fine. Don't drop hydreigon.

 

[Jaroda]

Hydreigon's niche is in its far better defensive typing than KyuB's. Its immunity to Psychic and Ground, plus its 6 resistances, SR neutrality and Spikes immunity, with the option to run U-Turn and Roost means it can actually be VERY annoying to dispose of and wear down through many contemporary means. Hydreigon has very good defensive typing and good bulk, a very spammable Dark Pulse, and the combination of a relatively fast Taunt plus Leftovers and Roost means it is very capable of stalling out many things. I agree that its wallbreaking potential is lackluster, but that's not why I recommend using it. I think its just a terrific bulky pivot. Bulky sets with HP and some SpD investment if you want very easily threaten out Psychic types with Fighting coverage like Alakazam or Reuniclus, who doesn't need a ton of investment to demolish them with STAB Dark Pulse. I personally use a Modest Leftovers spread with HP, SpA and some Spe investment with Dark Pulse, Roost, Taunt and then Earth Power/Focus Blast/U-Turn/Fire Blast depending on what I want to lure or dispatch of. I think that ultimately this makes Hydreigon lower risk to use, yet simultaneously requires more skill to pull off due to the sheer stat advantage KyuB and Hoopa have.

 

[MikeDawg]

I assume that this is being nommed to drop because of Hoopa-U. But I'd argue that Hydreigon is better than Hoopa in certain roles. Because of access to roost and much better physical bulk, Hydreigon can run a set similar to Kyu-B (roost dragon pulse fire blast dark pulse) in that it is great vs balance. However, it's faster than Kyu-B. It has a pretty decent typing (even though I feel Kyu-B's is unfairly criticized). It has u-turn, which is really nice. It beats bisharp. The lati's don't have fire blast or u-turn. Hydreigon hasn't lost its niche to any mon. But where does its niche rank? That's the hard part, but I think a whole rank below latios and Hoopa-U is certainly low enough. It doesn't seem on par with the beasts in A-, but B+ seems fine. Don't drop hydreigon.

The point is that as of hoopa's release, it has less roles that aren't outclassed. In other words, it has less of a niche. It still has a niche of course (else it would be down in D or E), but it got significantly less prominent. That is perhaps the biggest reason for any Mon to drop. It definitely warrants at least a rank down.

Also, why are there 17 guests browsing this thread? Make a Smogon account lol

 

[MattyBrollic]

Hydreigon certainly isn't an easy Pokemon to use. Its not too bulky and its defensive typing is not good despite a few nice resistances and immunities. It has fantastic coverage offensively, but does not necessarily possess the power to dismantle bulkier teams the way kyurem B and Hoopa-U can. It also lacks the speed to punish offensive teams with its nice power and coverage.

Hydreigon has a very wide move pool and is a pretty anti-meta attacker which, in my opinion, warrants it a B ranking, but certainly no higher as it is difficult to find room for on teams and is generally outclassed in a lot of ways.

Drop Hydreigon to B

 

[thesecondbest]

The point is that as of hoopa's release, it has less roles that aren't outclassed. In other words, it has less of a niche. It still has a niche of course (else it would be down in D or E), but it got significantly less prominent. That is perhaps the biggest reason for any Mon to drop. It definitely warrants at least a rank down.

Also, why are there 17 guests browsing this thread? Make a Smogon account lol

Every niche it has has something over hoopa. Roost and better physical bulk beat the life orb hoopa sets, u-turn beats the scarf hoopa sets, and banded hoopa doesn't really compete with a Hydreigon role. Hydra's draco is stronger than anything hoopa has to offer, and overall, it has a lot of unique traits that give it a reasonable niche, and one whole rank below hoopa is certainly low enough.

 

[Firebird101]

Every niche it has has something over hoopa. Roost and better physical bulk beat the life orb hoopa sets, u-turn beats the scarf hoopa sets, and banded hoopa doesn't really compete with a Hydreigon role. Hydra's draco is stronger than anything hoopa has to offer, and overall, it has a lot of unique traits that give it a reasonable niche, and one whole rank below hoopa is certainly low enough.

Is roost really that good on Hydra? It generally wants as much coverage as it can get to threaten everything it can. I admit the only sets I've ever used Hydreigon in recent memory are LO and scarf sets (and specs in UU) but I simply can't imagine Hydra wanting to give up any of it's attacks for recovery. Plus it isn't hard to 2hko Hydra as it never runs any investment other than attacks and speed so it is rather pointless to run roost and if you opt for a bulky set then Hydra just became a whole lot easier to switch into. Hoopa has more freedom in it sets because it packs better coverage as well and it hits generally harder with it's moves and it can be hard for Hydra to drop a draco when there is a fairy on the other side while it is much less deal for Hoopa to spam resisted moves to get some damage than to get no damage at all as Hydra can be risking.

I can see Hydreigon either way as it has gotten less viable with Hoopa being another, harder hitting option for dark spammer but Hydra still has it's niches as having better base speed and offer decent defense synergy if you want a dragon on the team but roost is generally a inferior option on Hydra so I don't think that is a niche Hydra can claim for itself.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

I second the "hydra not needing roost" part.
As for the debate at hand let's put it this way; Hoopa is stronger and has better coverage. And that's it. Hydreigon has better bulk, resistances, speed, ability, and well, everything else. Power alone doesn't make a mon better.

The point is that as of hoopa's release, it has less roles that aren't outclassed. In other words, it has less of a niche. It still has a niche of course (else it would be down in D or E), but it got significantly less prominent. That is perhaps the biggest reason for any Mon to drop. It definitely warrants at least a rank down.

Also, why are there 17 guests browsing this thread? Make a Smogon account lol

And what roles does Hoopa outclass Hydreigon at? We've established that Hydreigon is more of a powerful pivot, not a strict wallbreaker. Yes fairies force it out but an equally long list of mons force out Hoopa (hell, if Hoopa isn't using Drain Punch Hydra switches in on anything else and forces a switch). It needs teammates just as much as Hydreigon does. You could say Hoopa outclasses Hydreigon as a Dark spammer but do Hydreigon's Dark Pules' not hit freaking hard? They still do while in the meantime Hydreigon provides a handy switch in to many attacks (Hoopa can't switch in to ANYTHING really). In all, I'd say Hydreigon is an excellent anti-meta mon that hits very hard and beats common wallbreakers (Hoopa and Kyurem). Shall we drop every other non-mega wallbreaker because they can't hit harder than Hoopa as well?

Edit: and when I say it's beating Hoopa with U-turn don't assume Hydra is using a Scarf. U-turn is perfectly valid on its other sets in order to easily switch to your faerie counter. I think we can all agree Hydra's scarf set is ass and doesn't make use of its talents
Edit 2: heh :3 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-258602236

 

[Srn]

Is roost really that good on Hydra? It generally wants as much coverage as it can get to threaten everything it can. I admit the only sets I've ever used Hydreigon in recent memory are LO and scarf sets (and specs in UU) but I simply can't imagine Hydra wanting to give up any of it's attacks for recovery. Plus it isn't hard to 2hko Hydra as it never runs any investment other than attacks and speed so it is rather pointless to run roost and if you opt for a bulky set then Hydra just became a whole lot easier to switch into. Hoopa has more freedom in it sets because it packs better coverage as well and it hits generally harder with it's moves and it can be hard for Hydra to drop a draco when there is a fairy on the other side while it is much less deal for Hoopa to spam resisted moves to get some damage than to get no damage at all as Hydra can be risking.

I can see Hydreigon either way as it has gotten less viable with Hoopa being another, harder hitting option for dark spammer but Hydra still has it's niches as having better base speed and offer decent defense synergy if you want a dragon on the team but roost is generally a inferior option on Hydra so I don't think that is a niche Hydra can claim for itself.

Nooot necessarily.
I think you're pigeonholing hydreigon into a wallbreaker role, but it can do other things too (i mean outside of revenging with scarf as well)
A set of Roost/taunt/stabs is perfectly fine to stall break the usual ferro/tran/chansey etc while still posing a threat to offense with its natural power. Hell you could viably run work up or torment over draco too. You mention that "hydreigon just got a lot easier to switch into" but that's true for every stallbreaker lol. Stallbreakers are aimed at bulkier builds, not offensive ones. Its not as if bulky talon is suddenly bad just because it can't flare blitz the raikou.
And people seem to be forgetting that unlike hoopa or w/e else people are comparing this with, it has more bulk than keldeo (barely), 6 resistances, and two immunities. It actually switches into shit and not a lot of other dark types do.
Even an expert belt set bluffing scarf is extremely effective at luring in fairies with flash cannon; clefable aren't nearly as keen to switch into kyu-b considering ice beam 2hkos with the slightest prior damage. It's also a bisharp check (given the basic coverage) that isn't a fighting type, that's kinda cool
Leave hydreigon where it is. It seems quite at home amongst mega heracross and mamoswine, pokemon that have their defensive niches to complement their power.

 

[AM]

Henry's gonna post an update of some ranking changes soon or relatively soon but they more than likely won't be changed until several hours from now. If a mod sees this change they can change as such to reflect his comment or a ranking team members comment but there's the heads up in case I'm not around.

 

[henry]

UPDATE ETC. AM IS DEAD EXCEPT FOR WHEN WE NEED HIM TO UPDATE THE OP THEN HE ISNT DEAD BUT RN HES DEAD EVEN THOUGH WE NEED HIM TO UPDATE THE OP


Hoopa-Unbound A+ -> S

Manaphy A+ -> S

Hippowdon A -> A+

Mew A- -> A

Mega Slowbro A- -> A

Medicham B+ -> A-

Mega Latias A -> B+

Feraligatr B -> B+

Scolipede B+ -> B

Tangrowth B- -> B

Tentacruel B -> B-

Infernape B- -> C+

Rotom-Heat C- -> C

Heracross C+ - C

Kyurem C -> C+

Regular Metagross -> C

your feeble lives are but a meaningless waste of resources as the VR COUNCIL transcends reality.

 

[Subject 18]

done

 

[TPP]

Any word on Klefki? I made a post sparking discussion back here http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...actually-read-it.3536420/page-86#post-6339367.

Also, what are the new discussion points? Cause on the OP under where it says what mons to discuss, it's blank. Metagross and Feraligatr both moved so are they still discussion points?