Applying to college

[The Kitty Cat]

What's your argument?

My argument is that talking about "Ivy League" schools is misleading to people seeking advice in applying to college (here and on other forums) because what people writing mean is Harvard, Princeton and (maybe) Yale while children reading this will be thinking that Columbia and Brown are including in the discussion -- they aren't.

An analogy: Just as Russell Group as a whole and Oxbridge are two very different animals, so the lower Ivies nothing are nothing compared to HYP.

What is this argument in general tbh

Ppl say "ivies" cuz its quicker than "harvard princeton yale" who gives a shit

It's misleading.

 

[Bughouse]

Because the Ivy League is a literal group of schools that has been known as the Ivy League for a long-ass time?

That's why people say it. And lmao you're more than a little pretentious about college and it's not cute.

 

[The Kitty Cat]

Because the Ivy League is a literal group of schools that has been known as the Ivy League for a long-ass time?

That's why people say it. And lmao you're more than a little pretentious about college and it's not cute.

People don't use "Ivy League" literally. It's a metonymy for a three specific schools.

 

[Bughouse]

As a graduate of an actual Ivy League school, you're wrong

 

[DiscoDucky]

People don't use "Ivy League" literally. It's a metonymy for a three specific schools.

Regardless, at least people will find out about the five other ones from here. :)

And frankly speaking, Ivy League discussion pops up a lot in the news. References to Dartmouth, UPenn, etc. are in the news a lot. And this:

source: Business Insider

These are the rates for the class of 2019. If Harvard, Princeton, and/or Yale are the metonymy for the Ivy League, the latter two would be much high on the list. But as you can see, schools such as Cornell, UPenn, and Columbia, have larger numbers of applications and correlate to a more widespread recognition.

 

[jalmont]

Unrelated question: Why do people always say "Ivies, Stanford, MIT"? There really only two Ivy League schools on par with Stanford and MIT. Why bring Cornell, Brown, UPenn, Yale, Columbia, or Dartmouth in this? Also, note that "Harvard, Princeton" is the same number of words as "Ivy League."

I assume this question is directed at me wondering why I and maybe others find the rest of the Ivies on par with stanford/MIT/harvard/princeton, considering that the answer is otherwise fairly obvious.

To why the answer is obvious - the Ivy League consists of schools that have very low acceptance rates and have usually been ranked very highly, with all 8 in the top 16 in the last ranking by the US World and News or whatever. No other group of schools has that sort of reputation. This is a fact. Thus, when you have enough similar objects, people like to group them together for ease and simplicity sake. We can also do this because most people agree to this standard definition. You disagreeing doesn't make the term any less valid, since people recognize that I am referring to elite schools in general, even if Columbia isn't an elite school according to you. This is how grouping objects works. No group is ever perfect. Obviously, people will disagree with the inclusion and exclusion of certain schools. That's fine. You can have your own opinion. Maybe if you provide a compelling argument as to why the lower Ivies should be excluded other than claims with no evidence then it could catch on and change people's minds on what they consider to be the most prestigious schools.

Do you have any evidence that suggests the 5 other Ivies have "no" prestige? Do you have any evidence that shows that people don't use "Ivy League" literally? It's clear that you look at those group of schools very closely and hold them to a high standard. Great, you're completely entitled to your opinion. Unfortunately, not everyone is as brilliant as you or even I, and so, what occurs as a result is that Brown/Yale/Columbia become to them what MIT/Stanford/Harvard is to you. It isn't wrong, it's being realistic. The notion that if you aren't going to one of "The Kitty Kat's Big 4" then your wasting your time is preposterous because not everyone is exactly the same as you (which is why I think your previous advice was terrible as well considering it's geared specifically only towards a person like yourself).

So when I refer to the "Ivies, Stanford, MIT," I am not making the case that Dartmouth is on par with MIT. I am referring to the most prestigious schools in the US, and saying "Ivies" is a way of communicating that. What schools are the most prestigious is certainly up for debate. But in that moment all I wanted to do was make a comparison between top US universities. Whether or not they actually were is irrelevant given that my list wasn't completely off.

 

[The Kitty Cat]

Business Insider is selling a story about Ivy League schools, which include the other schools by formal definition.
The reason that the acceptance rate to Columbia is on par with those of HYP is that most decent but neither brilliant nor interesting students of the appropriate milieux know better than to apply to HYP just because they have perfect or near-perfect test scores and grades and a mediocre research profile upon graduation. That is not the case with Columbia or Cornell, schools many and working- and lower-middle-class students apply to simply because they are part of a particular athletic association.

 

[Bughouse]

OK congrats you're now just talking out of your ass and I will tag user Sam, who goes to Cornell, to shut you up. I can also tell you that your description of non-HYP ivies does not apply to Penn, Columbia, or Brown either (all schools I know very well). Can't speak to Dartmouth.

Also your use of words like milieu and metonymy doesn't actually make you smart.

 

[DiscoDucky]

That is not the case with Columbia or Cornell, schools many and working- and lower-middle-class students apply to simply because they are part of a particular athletic association.

what. Columbia is hardly working class since it has one of the most expensive fees out of any Ivy.

 

[The Kitty Cat]

what. Columbia is hardly working class since it has one of the most expensive fees out of any Ivy.

Poor students can attend any of these schools for free.

Also your use of words like milieu and metonymy doesn't actually make you smart.

They're not supposed to. They're the proper words in the context, and they are not jargon, so they work.

 

[marilli]

who cares that your idea of a prestigious school is different from other people's. its what you do with your college life that matters, not the name of your school.

 

[The Kitty Cat]

who cares that your idea of a prestigious school is different from other people's. its what you do with your college life that matters, not the name of your school.

It matters because people use the university system for social mobility.

 

[Bughouse]

Poor students can attend any of these schools for free.

While it's true they have good aid policies, this overstates it by a wide margin. Moreover, a significant portion of aid comes from work-study, rather than grants.

You're also forgetting that a very large percentage of students are very, very wealthy (At Penn, for example, 55% of all students pay full-ride meaning they are in top few % of wealth in the country). Consider the following: http://canadagooseatpenn.tumblr.com/ These jackets cost $600 and they are ALL OVER campus to the point someone made a tumblr to satirize it.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Let's focus on another aspect for high school students:

What extracurriculars have you or are currently doing?

 

[The Kitty Cat]

While it's true they have good aid policies, this overstates it by a wide margin. Moreover, a significant portion of aid comes from work-study, rather than grants.

You're also forgetting that a very large percentage of students are very, very wealthy (At Penn, for example, 55% of all students pay full-ride meaning they are in top few % of wealth in the country). Consider the following: http://canadagooseatpenn.tumblr.com/ These jackets cost $600 and they are ALL OVER campus to the point someone made a tumblr to satirize it.

Wealthy students know how this works and do not need to worry about lower Ivies' lack of prestige: Wealthy students who find jobs at prestigious firms often do so because they are well-connected, not because they went to the right university. Students needing financial aid will certainly have their costs covered at HYP. The only people in actual trouble with respect to financial aid are upper-middle-class students from areas with high costs of living -- it's the reason for what's going on with in-state admissions to the UC schools.

 

[Bughouse]

OK you know everything, and I give up. Have a nice life always knowing more than everyone else, including people who have actually experienced the things you have not.

 

[The Kitty Cat]

Let's focus on another aspect for high school students:

What extracurriculars have you or are currently doing?

I'm a mod on College Confidential and have been doing a lot of volunteer work.

 

[The Kitty Cat]

Yeah dude this is sort of bullshit. Other people addressed how you were incorrect before, but im going to too because i find it funny that the two Ivys you cited as elite are the two im not applying to. The only undergraduate programs where Harvard and Princeton are demonstrably superior are those in computer science , and those programs do not comprise the entirety of a school. If you are doing nearly anything else, there is likely a school better than Harvard or Princeton; my dad got into all save Princeton and Columbia and chose Cornell because their undergraduate bio was superior to Harvard's and Yale's. You profess to have a deep understanding of school prestige but are mired in a misconception - namely, the schools people say are "omg the best schoolz ever" are in fact entirely superior.

This grrrl is bullshit, too, because she doesn't even know that Cornell is the only Ivy with a decent computer science program or that prestige should hardly be a concern when it comes to computer science.

 

[jalmont]

Meh, I think a lot of the points kitty's are interesting but I wish she could bring up some actual evidence considering the controversial nature of a lot of her opinions. For instance, I can totally get behind re: financial aid, but not so much " most decent but neither brilliant nor interesting students of the appropriate milieux know better than to apply to HYP just because they have perfect or near-perfect test scores and grades and a mediocre research profile upon graduation," without seeing some evidence.

At the end of the day, and the point that continually is being ignored, is that which college is right for a person is always going to vary depending on the person. Every person is different and their circumstances are different so what's the point in getting worked up over whether there are 2 ivies or 3 ivies that are equivalent to MIT and Stanford. College is more than arriving at x school, getting degree, go to graduate school/job. It's also an opportunity to develop as a person, meet new people, and become independent. For some people, that part is really important , and so maybe a school that is a lower Ivy will be the right fit for them.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Harvard has a strong compsci program on the graduate level, which correlates to a strong undergrad curriculum regardless of undergrad ranking. Princeton's aerospace program is the strongest of all the Ivies. Cornell holds high rankings in undergrad teaching because mostly every singlw cornellian lands a job out of college.

and acting as a mod on college confidential is nothing. It's similar to telling people you're a specialist on Italian food because you worked at Olive Garden.

 

[Fireburn]

School prestige is an interesting concept that prospective students tend to place excessive value on (we've all done it at some point).

The effect of school prestige is usually small at best and varies by industry and the person doing the recruiting. It does seem to matter less in CompSci/IT fields to most CIOs when looking to hire recent graduates, where internship experience and technical, demonstrable skills are generally more important. Admittedly, it is true that for some specific industries (especially investment banking), most top firms won't even consider you if you didn't go to a top-ranked school. In general, students value prestige more highly than employers. More important for getting employed are your skills, your personality and ability to work with others, networking with peers and recruiters, etc.

Obviously you should try to get into the best school you can, but one that is also a good fit for you. There are so many factors that go into finding a school that you will like and prestige is worthless if you hate it there. If your reason for going to college is solely so you can go to a "top" school, you are going for the wrong reasons. You can use any university for "social mobility" if you love it enough to work hard and make yourself stand out.

(As an aside, prestige does seem to matter more if you intend to go into graduate school for a future career in academia, and even then, who and what matters more than where. You will not finish a graduate program if you hate your advisor or your research topic, and a famous professor isn't necessarily a good advisor. I am not a graduate student, but I still recommend this blog post by well-known University of Utah CS professor Matt Might. I found much of his advice helpful.)

The idea that "HYP is all that matters" when it comes to Ivy-level prestige is, quite frankly, insulting. You are almost certainly not going to be condemned to life at McDonald's because you wanted to go to Cornell or Columbia instead. It is true that the association stems merely from the athletic division holding them together, but the connotation of each school being academically excellent is not without merit, and you would be deluding yourself to think that reputation was earned because of HYP alone.

tl;dr Prestige is overrated, go somewhere that is a good fit for you. College will do you no good if you hate your school.

 

[The Kitty Cat]

and acting as a mod on college confidential is nothing. It's similar to telling people you're a specialist on Italian food because you worked at Olive Garden.

I guess you didn't see the racialist stuff or anything a few pages back, or you're just a bit slow.
The principle of charity is strong up in this bitch.

 

[BanSpecsMachamp]

I am really interested in studying mathematics in college (currently a senior in highschool) and right now my first choice is Kansas State because my father graduated from there; legacy scholarships ftw!! Does anybody have suggestions of colleges with good mathematics programs or are any of you studying math?

 

[The Kitty Cat]

I am really interested in studying mathematics in college (currently a senior in highschool) and right now my first choice is Kansas State because my father graduated from there; legacy scholarships ftw!! Does anybody have suggestions of colleges with good mathematics programs or are any of you studying math?

Cambridge, Harvard, Princeton

 

[Fireburn]

I am really interested in studying mathematics in college (currently a senior in highschool) and right now my first choice is Kansas State because my father graduated from there; legacy scholarships ftw!! Does anybody have suggestions of colleges with good mathematics programs or are any of you studying math?

UChicago, Caltech, UCLA/UC Berkeley, NYU, Harvey Mudd, CMU, Georgia Tech, Purdue, Duke (in no particular order)

I don't think Kansas State is considered to be a "top" math school (barely cracks top 100 from USNews rankings), but if you like it there, funding is at all a concern, and you are confident you can get a legacy scholarship, it's definitely worth consideration.