Ah good point but I think the meta is moving around florges by speed creeping and preparing for more defensive florges anyway. While Calm mind florges is really cool, the same stuff switches into it and threatens it such as Entei, Roar Empoleon, Beedrill, and Snorlax. Calm mind florges works depending on the physical attackers your opponent brought. If they just brought fighting types like heracross or offensive dark types like krook then florges can get work fantastically. If not its mainly there to tank fighting moves and threaten hydregion which is not bad at all. Basically you are trading wish support for a possible win condition when you have calm mind over the regular set. It doesnt change much for it.
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)
- Thread starter Omfuga
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Like Sam said, there definitely needs to be more of an emphasis on CM Florges when assessing its viability as imo it's Florges' best set right now. For a long ass time, Florges has been considered a mediocre wish passer due to its middling HP stat, meaning that bulkier pokemon really didn't recover all that much when compared to a wish from a Blissey or even an Aromatisse. However, Florges retained its lead in the viability race because of its ability to check two things, Starmie and Blastoise. And then ORAS came around and Florges received Synthesis, a neat tool that many (including myself) simply wrote off in favor of the more traditional Wish set. Over time, CM Florges gained hype and then lost hype and is now gaining it again for its presence and reliability as both a bulky win condition and a defensive component of a team. What CM Florges does opposed to its counterpart, Wish Florges, is it makes everything a whole lot more complicated for your opponent in the same way that every bulky set up mon does. They can go right to their check like Cobalion, but then they might take a whopping 40% or so, making them less reliable in the future. The alternative is to let Florges Calm Mind to the point where their check is literally going to die upon switch in if it takes an attack. This forces a series of 50/50s, stacked in the Florges user's favor, or it requires a pokemon to be sacked.
Of course, what if teams have more reliable checks than Cobalion? Well Florges operates the same way that any other bulky set up pokemon does in this tier. It simply wears them down with repeated hazards switch ins and making them take Moonblasts (off a strong base SpA stat too). In fact, Florges is more reliable at wearing down its counters since it never sleeps to recover its health, unlike Snorlax and Suicune. This means it is always difficult to obtain a free switch into Florges. However, there are pokemon that do come in reliably, namely Crobat, Beedrill, Doublade, Nidoqueen, and a few others. 3 of these are vulnerable to spikes and the other is weak to rocks, letting Florges play the long game and outlast them all since only one has recovery. Also, a neat little set that I have experimented with is offensive Calm Mind Florges, luring the aforementioned pokemon while still maintaining a solid Hydreigon counter that doesn't fold to Fire Blast from Hydreigon. I run near max speed and max SpA with Psychic, MB, CM, Synth and its pretty sick. Anyways, like I was saying, Florges has very solid and reliable staying power with Synthesis over Wish (no roar healing denial) and it can very easily play the long game and force its counters to take hazards repeatedly to the point where you can't call them counters anymore.
TL;DR: Use Florges with Spikes, its sick. A+
Of course, what if teams have more reliable checks than Cobalion? Well Florges operates the same way that any other bulky set up pokemon does in this tier. It simply wears them down with repeated hazards switch ins and making them take Moonblasts (off a strong base SpA stat too). In fact, Florges is more reliable at wearing down its counters since it never sleeps to recover its health, unlike Snorlax and Suicune. This means it is always difficult to obtain a free switch into Florges. However, there are pokemon that do come in reliably, namely Crobat, Beedrill, Doublade, Nidoqueen, and a few others. 3 of these are vulnerable to spikes and the other is weak to rocks, letting Florges play the long game and outlast them all since only one has recovery. Also, a neat little set that I have experimented with is offensive Calm Mind Florges, luring the aforementioned pokemon while still maintaining a solid Hydreigon counter that doesn't fold to Fire Blast from Hydreigon. I run near max speed and max SpA with Psychic, MB, CM, Synth and its pretty sick. Anyways, like I was saying, Florges has very solid and reliable staying power with Synthesis over Wish (no roar healing denial) and it can very easily play the long game and force its counters to take hazards repeatedly to the point where you can't call them counters anymore.
TL;DR: Use Florges with Spikes, its sick. A+
IMO specs is also really underrated. 112 SpAtt hits almost everything in the meta super-effectively with Moonblast/Psychic/Energy Ball/Hidden Power Fire. Definitely something people should be looking into imho
EDIT: Also, unpopular opinion. Feraligatr to A+.
Feraligatr really has like two sets, SD and DD. At this point in the meta, many teams have built-in methods in dealing with Feraligatr, and with both bulky checks such as Suicune rising to notoriety, it really diminishes the offensive effect Feraligatr has against some teams. It's still a pretty good pokemon, but it'll have to wait a bit until suicune cycles out of fashion before it goes back to becoming S
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I never really agreed with Gatr to S, like ever. I get that it can sweep teams mid-late game but even after one dd it doesn't even outspeed things like scarf Chandy or M-B. This makes you have to choose to set up at normally one point in the match. And if your opponsnt's _infernape is actually scarfed and has grass knot, ya done. What I'm trying to say is feraligatr requires either removing it's checks (there are many, like scald) facing a bad team, or using a crapton of prediction. The same is true for the SD set. And yet I still think it should be in S because of its insane power and sweeping and wallbreaking potential. It's of the most threatening moms in UU, and if every other team has a forretress, aggron, or suicune, Gatr is putting in the work, even if you don't have one. Limiting team building is something that S rank moms have to do. Do you know how many stall teams are good that don't have a feraligatr check? None. Because if feraligatr gets a free turn once there's no thunderwave be or scald lying around, gg no re. As much as I personally think Gatr is a piece of shit and on paper kinda is, it's just too good.
Edit: just counted the number of mons it can set up on---it's like 10 from S to B rank, which makes sense, because those are all highly ranked pokemon
Edit: just counted the number of mons it can set up on---it's like 10 from S to B rank, which makes sense, because those are all highly ranked pokemon
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I would say gatrs major flaw rn is finding a spot on most teams since this meta makes it so water types are great for broad checking so many things which means they need good bulk however gatr doesnt really have that and cant run investment to make it bulkier, this means that many players will pick something like slowking or cune so they have a good wincon and a broad check to a ton of threats especially entei/maero. Water typing in this tier is so useful and so common that it makes it hard for a lot of water types to find dominate places in the meta.
This being said Gatr is underused as hell, for the above reason a lot of people wont use gatr or cant fit it on the team but its still a huge threat in this meta. Sd gatr and dd demolish all playstyles once a check or two is weakened, yes people prepare for gatr but not nearly as much as they should. Gatr is a mon that can be used to check any playstyle as both of its sets can be very potent to most uu teams. It may not be the most used S rank but it is still a ridiculous threat and imo should stay S
Btw sorry for garbo post quality on mobile and at work :/
This being said Gatr is underused as hell, for the above reason a lot of people wont use gatr or cant fit it on the team but its still a huge threat in this meta. Sd gatr and dd demolish all playstyles once a check or two is weakened, yes people prepare for gatr but not nearly as much as they should. Gatr is a mon that can be used to check any playstyle as both of its sets can be very potent to most uu teams. It may not be the most used S rank but it is still a ridiculous threat and imo should stay S
Btw sorry for garbo post quality on mobile and at work :/
I've been a bit busy not playing UU at all except maybe a few battles here and there, so maybe I'm pulling this straight out of my ass, but is there any use for donphan at this point? Now, let me explain myself. Obviously, people are going to right away say that his niche is being someone who can set up rocks and spin at the same time, but is that enough? Honestly, when's the last time you saw a Donphan do his job properly? As a rocks setter (and a Pokemon in general) Donphan is simply outclassed by lead mamoswine. Who, iirc, has an ability that denies taunt, much more offensive capability, and is more versatile as a whole. So he's not exactly an ideal rocks setter. Now we look at a much better spinner: mega blastoise (and arguably regular blastoise, which I'll get into later). Mega blastoise has much more offensive presence, a wider and better move pool to work with, better bulk, better defensive typing, and it's not taunt bait when it's trying to set up rocks(I can't be the only one who loves taunt on crobat with a passion, can I?). And honestly, even regular blastoise is a better spinner if the opportunity cost isn't your cup of tea. I'm not even gonna say "in my opinion" as per usual, but rather blatantly say: in UU, water is a better defensive typing than ground. Blastoise can't lay down rocks, but it resists steel (doublade, cobalion, lucario), fire (arcanine and Entei), and ice (mamoswine). And, even though most of these mons have coverage attacks, blastoise's bulk allows it to eat a few attacks from either side with relative ease. While we take a look at Donphan's resists and find these: poison (have fun catching ice beams from the nidos and a bug buzz from venomoth), rock (this is actually kind of handy so I'm going to keep my mouth shut in this one), and has an immunity to electric (which sounds nice until you see the scarcity of electric types in the tier, and realize that the ones that are on the tier all have some coverage move that blows Donphans poor special bulk to hell and back) And I'd say even regular blastoise has a bit more pressure than Donphan thanks to scalds burn chance. So, even though it doesn't matter in the long run (since nobody really uses Donphan). I say Donphan for D/C rank. I'm fine with either, just get it down from B-. I would get into more detail on why Donphan sucks and we should all bully him senseless, but this is on mobile and I think you guys have had enough of me so I can go back to hibernating for a few more months.
@ the above: Not saying in any universe that Donphan's better than Mamoswine, but I don't think the two are comparable. Donphan's only niche is being able to set up rocks and spin at the same time. Spinning is obviously more crucial than setting up rocks (because far more pokemon get rocks than rapid spin), and the only pokemon Donphan might be comparable to in UU is forretress.
That being said, Donphan's specific typing and superior offensive attributes gives it a small niche on teams that sometimes forretress/blastoise/tentacruel can't achieve.
As for Feraligatr, I don't think dropping it is even a question. It has so few counters in the tier and almost nothing in the tier can firmly counter both sets (except maybe phdef p2/chesnaught/tangrowth, which I still wouldn't call "hard" counters), and even with proper checks either set can be devastating. I don't think there is almost ever a game where I use feraligatr and think that it has 0 possiblity to sweep; that's the great thing about Gatr, no matter how hard you prepare for it, it will always be threatening to some extent.
And finally, I'm tired of hearing the argument that suicune is a good gatr counter. Getting 2hko'd by SD after rocks and simply roaring gatr out is terrible. If you scald after switching in on an SD, you face the possibility of being 2hko'd (or being forced to rest if you live 2 +2 crunches). If you roar Gatr out and tank the +2 crunch, you get no chance to burn it, and if you roar in something that can OHKO a 50-ish% suicune (Rotom-c, Helio, Tyrantrum, Nidoking, Rotom-h, Azelf, Chandelure, Heracross, Shaymin, Mienshao, Whims, Dragalge, Abomasnow, Ampharos, Kyurem, Sceptile, Yanmega, etc) then you're forced to either sack your suicune or switch out. If you sack your suicune after roaring into something that can finish Cune off, you're probably going to lose to gatr later in the game (assuming that's your best counter). If you save Suicune, you come back in at 50% on +2 gatr later on the game and die to a crunch anyway.
And of course, there's also the option of going for scald on the +2 gatr and losing your "counter" 70% of the time. Either way, although Suicune may be a reliable counter to DD gatr, it doesn't counter gatr as a whole. SD gatr finds many opportunities in a game to get past Suicune.
Of course, a team with Tangrowth + Suicune would be well-equipped for gatr, but SD could still potentially sweep late-game (although not as likely). And if you're struggling so much with gatr that you need to run both tangrowth and Suicune, that shows how huge Gatr's impact is on the UU tier. The fact that Gatr puts this much pressure on teambuilding and either of its sets have colossal sweeping capabilities vs teams are why Gatr belongs in S-rank.
That being said, Donphan's specific typing and superior offensive attributes gives it a small niche on teams that sometimes forretress/blastoise/tentacruel can't achieve.
As for Feraligatr, I don't think dropping it is even a question. It has so few counters in the tier and almost nothing in the tier can firmly counter both sets (except maybe phdef p2/chesnaught/tangrowth, which I still wouldn't call "hard" counters), and even with proper checks either set can be devastating. I don't think there is almost ever a game where I use feraligatr and think that it has 0 possiblity to sweep; that's the great thing about Gatr, no matter how hard you prepare for it, it will always be threatening to some extent.
And finally, I'm tired of hearing the argument that suicune is a good gatr counter. Getting 2hko'd by SD after rocks and simply roaring gatr out is terrible. If you scald after switching in on an SD, you face the possibility of being 2hko'd (or being forced to rest if you live 2 +2 crunches). If you roar Gatr out and tank the +2 crunch, you get no chance to burn it, and if you roar in something that can OHKO a 50-ish% suicune (Rotom-c, Helio, Tyrantrum, Nidoking, Rotom-h, Azelf, Chandelure, Heracross, Shaymin, Mienshao, Whims, Dragalge, Abomasnow, Ampharos, Kyurem, Sceptile, Yanmega, etc) then you're forced to either sack your suicune or switch out. If you sack your suicune after roaring into something that can finish Cune off, you're probably going to lose to gatr later in the game (assuming that's your best counter). If you save Suicune, you come back in at 50% on +2 gatr later on the game and die to a crunch anyway.
And of course, there's also the option of going for scald on the +2 gatr and losing your "counter" 70% of the time. Either way, although Suicune may be a reliable counter to DD gatr, it doesn't counter gatr as a whole. SD gatr finds many opportunities in a game to get past Suicune.
Of course, a team with Tangrowth + Suicune would be well-equipped for gatr, but SD could still potentially sweep late-game (although not as likely). And if you're struggling so much with gatr that you need to run both tangrowth and Suicune, that shows how huge Gatr's impact is on the UU tier. The fact that Gatr puts this much pressure on teambuilding and either of its sets have colossal sweeping capabilities vs teams are why Gatr belongs in S-rank.
To be honest I do not see how the CM set puts Florges to A+. Florges is indeed the queen of balance and checks a million and a half things while serving as a cleric and wish passer, but we already knew this. Her main problem was her passivity and being a free switch in to so many things that abuse it. I'm going to list what mons switch in freely on the WishPass cleric set and compare how the CM set alleviates the problem of her passivity:
Suicune, Mega Bee, Cobalion (somewhat), Entei, Reuniclus, SubCM Chandelure, CM Cress, Crobat, Doublade, Empoleon, the Nidos, CM Slowking, Snorlax, Roserade, Mega Aggron, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Qwilfish, Escavalier, and Venomoth.
The CM set deals with SubCM Chandelure, Jellicent, and Tentacruel/Qwilfish but with Haze, Tentacruel doesn't give a shit. Like Spoofy said, everything else still does its job in abusing Florges, and sooooo many teams have at least one of these. Also, Florges is still revenged by powerful physical wallbreakers like Mamo, Toxicroak, Iron Tail Mence etc because unlike Reuniclus, Suicune, and Lax, her unboosted defense stat is horrible. Also Synthesis is shit recovery since Rain and Hail half it and only has 8 pp. Keep Florges A.
Suicune, Mega Bee, Cobalion (somewhat), Entei, Reuniclus, SubCM Chandelure, CM Cress, Crobat, Doublade, Empoleon, the Nidos, CM Slowking, Snorlax, Roserade, Mega Aggron, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Qwilfish, Escavalier, and Venomoth.
The CM set deals with SubCM Chandelure, Jellicent, and Tentacruel/Qwilfish but with Haze, Tentacruel doesn't give a shit. Like Spoofy said, everything else still does its job in abusing Florges, and sooooo many teams have at least one of these. Also, Florges is still revenged by powerful physical wallbreakers like Mamo, Toxicroak, Iron Tail Mence etc because unlike Reuniclus, Suicune, and Lax, her unboosted defense stat is horrible. Also Synthesis is shit recovery since Rain and Hail half it and only has 8 pp. Keep Florges A.
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Gotta agree with some of the responses made in terms of gatr and florges.
Gatr is the best sweeper in the tier bar none. Scald definitely doesn't count as a counter as some have implied and gatr can still afford to forgo ice punch for substitute without much trouble. DD and SD destroy offense and balance respectively while still posing a large threat to the other playstyle (not to mention stall but tbh, stall probably has the best match-up vs gatr). What marks it as S rank is that you have to have multiple checks to this thing or it will grab at least two kills a game which isn't easy given its solid bulk and lack of common weaknesses. To be completely honest, I think scald's 30% burn is the only thing that is stopping it from being banned as it can threaten out so many pokemon to get an easy set up and still have the bulk to survive most physical hits even if the opponent does stay in which is even more siginificant for gatr as a set up sweeper because it doesn't suffer LO recoil.
Florges is definitely not A+ material in our current metagame. Do A Bibarel pretty much summed it up but unlike other CM sweepers such as cune or reuni, it doesn't have a defense stat high enough to let it boost against physical mons. CM really doesn't fix many of its issues, taunt bat still wins, blissey out-stalls it given aromatherapy and synthesis' low PP, entei still destroys it anus, doublade still sets up. In a metagame that has undoubtedly become more physical with the arrival of mence and gatr and the departure of specially-based staples like mega-pidgeot, starmie, raikou, alakazam, physically based teams are definitely in favour atm, particularly for heavy offense which really just wrecks florges regardless of CM.
Though having said that, a mon I think really needs to move up is dragalge. Not only does it have a really good defensive typing, its power as a hazard setter is only rivaled by mamoswine. Not only this, but toxic spikes is a really dangerous hazard at the moment, making sweeps much harder for mons like gatr as well as putting a lot of pressure on defensive teams. Not only this, but it can still run moves like thunderbolt which ensures that no hazard remover can defog or spin on it. Also, specs nukes everything not called blissey which is neat. Dragalge for A
Gatr is the best sweeper in the tier bar none. Scald definitely doesn't count as a counter as some have implied and gatr can still afford to forgo ice punch for substitute without much trouble. DD and SD destroy offense and balance respectively while still posing a large threat to the other playstyle (not to mention stall but tbh, stall probably has the best match-up vs gatr). What marks it as S rank is that you have to have multiple checks to this thing or it will grab at least two kills a game which isn't easy given its solid bulk and lack of common weaknesses. To be completely honest, I think scald's 30% burn is the only thing that is stopping it from being banned as it can threaten out so many pokemon to get an easy set up and still have the bulk to survive most physical hits even if the opponent does stay in which is even more siginificant for gatr as a set up sweeper because it doesn't suffer LO recoil.
Florges is definitely not A+ material in our current metagame. Do A Bibarel pretty much summed it up but unlike other CM sweepers such as cune or reuni, it doesn't have a defense stat high enough to let it boost against physical mons. CM really doesn't fix many of its issues, taunt bat still wins, blissey out-stalls it given aromatherapy and synthesis' low PP, entei still destroys it anus, doublade still sets up. In a metagame that has undoubtedly become more physical with the arrival of mence and gatr and the departure of specially-based staples like mega-pidgeot, starmie, raikou, alakazam, physically based teams are definitely in favour atm, particularly for heavy offense which really just wrecks florges regardless of CM.
Though having said that, a mon I think really needs to move up is dragalge. Not only does it have a really good defensive typing, its power as a hazard setter is only rivaled by mamoswine. Not only this, but toxic spikes is a really dangerous hazard at the moment, making sweeps much harder for mons like gatr as well as putting a lot of pressure on defensive teams. Not only this, but it can still run moves like thunderbolt which ensures that no hazard remover can defog or spin on it. Also, specs nukes everything not called blissey which is neat. Dragalge for A
All these water types mentioned, dang. I'll mention another one:
Mega Blastoise for A+
Mega Blastoise is one of the only two checks to Mamoswine that can also use Rapid Spin, and the only offensive check. (Unless for some reason you want to run offensive Forretress.) It is an intense wallbreaker that has coverage for a lot of top mons. It has good bulk which helps it to live hits from strong mons such as +2 Gatr and Mega Beedrill. This turtle also packs a punch, actually 2HKOing most good things with it's Mega Launcher boosted coverage moves and Scald/Hydro Pump. It also speed creeps Florges, which is good for hitting it with attacks before it can Wish. Overall, Blastoise is a great mon rn and deserves A+ rank.
Mega Blastoise for A+
Mega Blastoise is one of the only two checks to Mamoswine that can also use Rapid Spin, and the only offensive check. (Unless for some reason you want to run offensive Forretress.) It is an intense wallbreaker that has coverage for a lot of top mons. It has good bulk which helps it to live hits from strong mons such as +2 Gatr and Mega Beedrill. This turtle also packs a punch, actually 2HKOing most good things with it's Mega Launcher boosted coverage moves and Scald/Hydro Pump. It also speed creeps Florges, which is good for hitting it with attacks before it can Wish. Overall, Blastoise is a great mon rn and deserves A+ rank.
I want to touch upon some of the arguments made against Florges for A+
Sure, teams will have checks to Florges, but that doesn't stop CM Florges from being far more dangerous than the Wish set. As YABO mentioned many of these checks lack longevity, making it easier for Florges to outlast them, but the important aspect of CM Florges is what happens when these checks are dead or weakened. With Wish Florges, your cleric has an easier time. That's nice, but with CM Florges you sweep.
Also, some of the physical wallbreakers you mentioned fail to revenge kill Florges from full health (Adamant Mamo does max 70% with EQ, max atk LO Mence does max 88% with Iron Tail) and since they obviously can't switch in they're more than likely going to die from a boosted Moonblast.
This is only true if Blissey carries Toxic; against standard Twave Blissey CM Florges outstalls Softboiled pp unless you get unlucky with full paralysis.
This said, I'm not totally convinced Florges deserves A+; mainly I'm unsure if Florges is a better enough CMer than the likes of Curselax, Slowking, and Cresselia to warrant A+. I can't elaborate further because I've run out of time, so I have to end here.
Sure, teams will have checks to Florges, but that doesn't stop CM Florges from being far more dangerous than the Wish set. As YABO mentioned many of these checks lack longevity, making it easier for Florges to outlast them, but the important aspect of CM Florges is what happens when these checks are dead or weakened. With Wish Florges, your cleric has an easier time. That's nice, but with CM Florges you sweep.
Also, some of the physical wallbreakers you mentioned fail to revenge kill Florges from full health (Adamant Mamo does max 70% with EQ, max atk LO Mence does max 88% with Iron Tail) and since they obviously can't switch in they're more than likely going to die from a boosted Moonblast.
This is only true if Blissey carries Toxic; against standard Twave Blissey CM Florges outstalls Softboiled pp unless you get unlucky with full paralysis.
This said, I'm not totally convinced Florges deserves A+; mainly I'm unsure if Florges is a better enough CMer than the likes of Curselax, Slowking, and Cresselia to warrant A+. I can't elaborate further because I've run out of time, so I have to end here.
Something that is worth noting is that many of the checks listed as reliable answers to Florges are among the things that are prepared for by every team. This leaves you far less prone to getting double switched on. Albeit, this isn't the most concrete argument and is highly subjective, the threat of a Heracross doubling into your Snorlax switch can be fucking terrifying. This is mitigated a little bit with Florges whose most common answers are Doublade, Crobat, and Cobalion are simply much less threatening to switch into as they all share a common pool of counters. It becomes a little bit more dicey when the nidos are added in, but the Nidos are on the decline and have dropped a whole percent this past month.
Something that I briefly touched on in my last post was that Synthesis was better than Rest and I stand by that remark. Despite having 8 PP, that is more than enough to do its job. I have played about 100 games on the ladder with a team featuring CM Florges and have yet to run out of Synthesis PP a single time. This includes matchups versus stall, opposing balance, and bulky offense. There hasn't been one instance where 8 PP has bit me in the ass. I even have been thankful that I didn't have Wish several times. Despite being "more reliable", and I say that lightly, Wish opens yourself up to status far more than Synthesis. What I mean is this, say you come in on Scald from Blastoise and it burns. On this turn, he gets a medium roll and deals 30% + 6% with burn damage and lefties recovery. As you Wish you take another 6% from burn-lefties as he switches to Doublade. Your answer to Doublade, Suicune, has taken a Close Combat earlier in the game from a similar scenario and will thus die to an attack if Doublade gets +4 and it doesn't receive a Wish. Therefore, you are forced to go to Suicune to deal with Doublade and Florges remains at roughly 58% and you no longer have a Blastoise answer. The alternative is to receive the wish and be forced to either Sack a pokemon or to attempt to wish again in hopes of passing it to Suicune, all in all, not a good scenario.
Honestly, this is not the best way to explain why Synthesis outclasses Wish in many situations but it really does. Abomasnow is really uncommon and even so, its not like Florges is your answer to Aboma regardless, mitigating Synthesis' lessened healing. Furthermore, Synthesis makes you immune to healing denial from Roar and Whirlwind which is a strategy I have used in the past to slowly whittle down Florges by using something like Swampert.
Something that I briefly touched on in my last post was that Synthesis was better than Rest and I stand by that remark. Despite having 8 PP, that is more than enough to do its job. I have played about 100 games on the ladder with a team featuring CM Florges and have yet to run out of Synthesis PP a single time. This includes matchups versus stall, opposing balance, and bulky offense. There hasn't been one instance where 8 PP has bit me in the ass. I even have been thankful that I didn't have Wish several times. Despite being "more reliable", and I say that lightly, Wish opens yourself up to status far more than Synthesis. What I mean is this, say you come in on Scald from Blastoise and it burns. On this turn, he gets a medium roll and deals 30% + 6% with burn damage and lefties recovery. As you Wish you take another 6% from burn-lefties as he switches to Doublade. Your answer to Doublade, Suicune, has taken a Close Combat earlier in the game from a similar scenario and will thus die to an attack if Doublade gets +4 and it doesn't receive a Wish. Therefore, you are forced to go to Suicune to deal with Doublade and Florges remains at roughly 58% and you no longer have a Blastoise answer. The alternative is to receive the wish and be forced to either Sack a pokemon or to attempt to wish again in hopes of passing it to Suicune, all in all, not a good scenario.
Honestly, this is not the best way to explain why Synthesis outclasses Wish in many situations but it really does. Abomasnow is really uncommon and even so, its not like Florges is your answer to Aboma regardless, mitigating Synthesis' lessened healing. Furthermore, Synthesis makes you immune to healing denial from Roar and Whirlwind which is a strategy I have used in the past to slowly whittle down Florges by using something like Swampert.
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Most of Florges' checks should definitely be prepared for on every team (if you have nothing for Entei you are gonna have a bad time), but that still doesn't make her any less of a liability around these mons. Utility mons, for example, like Tentacruel, Aggron, and Empoleon can come in all day and do their hazard thing without fearing Florges at all. Empoleon roars Florges and Tentacruel can Haze, so they aren't fodder for Florges. And like you said, potentially inviting in a Nidoking for free is terrifying. Same goes for giving Bee a free switch in. Or worst of all Entei, especially since you now lack protect. So if you pair Florges with Chandelure you are forced into a 50/50 that Protect would have saved you form.
Synthesis is better than Rest, I agree, but the weather effects on Synthesis is still a con of CM Florges, albeit a small one. Yeah SD Aboma eats Florges alive either way, but the Mixed set previously is walled by her but now Aboma can break through due to hail. This may seem too specific a scenario to matter, but it does happen.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-262197558
I play a stall team with Mixed Aboma, and throughout the match Aboma comes in and summons hail, denying Florges of recovery even when he is off the field. This lets me wear it down and finish it off late in the game
I would like to please nominate Registeel to be C rank or B- and Steelix mega to rise to B- or B rank. Registeel is good on defensive teams. Also I apologize for never following up with Espeon...I got busy...I rather ladder than post on smogon generally and I was planning a turn by turn analysis (thats the best way to evaluate anything I think but Espeon especially so because that would have allowed to me explain the pressure magic bounce's presence placed) which would have taken literally hours that I didn't feel like spending. So if you guys really don't think its important enough to rank higher than whatever I guess I don't either.
Registeel if I am correct it is unranked currently but it has a valuable niche because high mixed bulk unlike most steels and access to SR/Twave and a pure steel typing. Obviously you think of Meggron and Steelix Mega, which I think should be slightly higher and will talk about later, as competition and thats a valid point and overall they are both better than Registeel.
However compared to Mega Aggron Registeel has far superior special bulk - especially useful with LO Venomoth hitting Mega Aggron for a 2HKO with tinted lens Bug buzz after a boost or without a boost and about 15% chip damage (easily done on Aggron, its like a moonblast or something). Registeel also notably doesn't use a mega slot which now more than ever in UU is contested for in a team because we have some truly amazing stall viable megas like the aforementioned steel types, swampert, mega aero for defog and checking many stallbreakers, abomasnow to some extent, ampharos, bannette to a small extent, blastoise to some extent, camerupt to a small extent and audino to a small extent. Leftovers gives you recovery that meggron doesn't have access to and is helpful to a long stall game where you can heal hundreds or percent that meggron cannot. Registeel also counters pz which is amazing since basically even blissey loses to the np set and the other two steels almost always do as well overtime or instantly.
Still to be clear Meggron is superior since it can fit on more teams with its good offenses that Registeel almost completely lacks and access to phazing moves which gives more utility and its 230 base defense +filter. That means meggron counters things like Slurpuff and cannot be dugtrio trapped really unlike Registeel which dies to a +6 drain punch and is 2hko by eq. It also randomly survives things like I think a CB Heracross Close Combat crit which is dumb needless to say ad able to OHKO back
Steelix can rise to B in my opinion because it provides 3 main benefits compared to aggron - volt switch immunity, better special bulk, and more painful EQs. It is hard to deny how useful a ground type is for stall because if you don't have one they just click volt switch on your water type or other volt switch fearful mon and get free damage and a free turn - this is deadly with hazards on ur side. U-turn can at least be deterred by rocky helmet, alomomola, the general fact that uturn is weaker than volt switch bar the obvious exception beedrill. Volt switch on the other hand has no equal regen user, amoonguss/tang is bad for rotom h and ampharos, so it really appreciates the immunity to deter volting. obviously steelix is scared of those two as well but besides the fact many electrics are choiced volt switch allows you to pivot and make deseperate predictions - it at least gives you a chance versus many volt turn teams wheras you might just be mercilessly grinded down without one.
To be honest this is a lot of rambling, thanks for reading if you did though, and basic explanation that you probably already knew but I hope these two rankings happen...if not I can go more in depth with my own experiences because I've been using one of these three steels on the past 7 or so of my uu stall teams.
Registeel if I am correct it is unranked currently but it has a valuable niche because high mixed bulk unlike most steels and access to SR/Twave and a pure steel typing. Obviously you think of Meggron and Steelix Mega, which I think should be slightly higher and will talk about later, as competition and thats a valid point and overall they are both better than Registeel.
However compared to Mega Aggron Registeel has far superior special bulk - especially useful with LO Venomoth hitting Mega Aggron for a 2HKO with tinted lens Bug buzz after a boost or without a boost and about 15% chip damage (easily done on Aggron, its like a moonblast or something). Registeel also notably doesn't use a mega slot which now more than ever in UU is contested for in a team because we have some truly amazing stall viable megas like the aforementioned steel types, swampert, mega aero for defog and checking many stallbreakers, abomasnow to some extent, ampharos, bannette to a small extent, blastoise to some extent, camerupt to a small extent and audino to a small extent. Leftovers gives you recovery that meggron doesn't have access to and is helpful to a long stall game where you can heal hundreds or percent that meggron cannot. Registeel also counters pz which is amazing since basically even blissey loses to the np set and the other two steels almost always do as well overtime or instantly.
Still to be clear Meggron is superior since it can fit on more teams with its good offenses that Registeel almost completely lacks and access to phazing moves which gives more utility and its 230 base defense +filter. That means meggron counters things like Slurpuff and cannot be dugtrio trapped really unlike Registeel which dies to a +6 drain punch and is 2hko by eq. It also randomly survives things like I think a CB Heracross Close Combat crit which is dumb needless to say ad able to OHKO back
Steelix can rise to B in my opinion because it provides 3 main benefits compared to aggron - volt switch immunity, better special bulk, and more painful EQs. It is hard to deny how useful a ground type is for stall because if you don't have one they just click volt switch on your water type or other volt switch fearful mon and get free damage and a free turn - this is deadly with hazards on ur side. U-turn can at least be deterred by rocky helmet, alomomola, the general fact that uturn is weaker than volt switch bar the obvious exception beedrill. Volt switch on the other hand has no equal regen user, amoonguss/tang is bad for rotom h and ampharos, so it really appreciates the immunity to deter volting. obviously steelix is scared of those two as well but besides the fact many electrics are choiced volt switch allows you to pivot and make deseperate predictions - it at least gives you a chance versus many volt turn teams wheras you might just be mercilessly grinded down without one.
To be honest this is a lot of rambling, thanks for reading if you did though, and basic explanation that you probably already knew but I hope these two rankings happen...if not I can go more in depth with my own experiences because I've been using one of these three steels on the past 7 or so of my uu stall teams.
Just want to address Mega Blastoise for A+ and could not disagree more. My reasoning is two-fold:
1. Megatoise is worn down way too easily. Considering its the primary hazard remover of most teams, it will be switching into hazards and taking damage that it cannot recover. Add in chip damage when it comes to take a hit and Blastoise is running out of health and longevity way too soon for a hazard remover. It simply cannot be used to switch into hazards multiple times and at the same time be asked to switch into threats. Too many things can 2hko blastoise after just 1 or 2 switchins to rocks. Also getting affected by tspikes hurts a lot
2. Mega Blastoise is a liability vs stall. Mega Blastoise has no way of doing anything to a stall team which has blissey or florges. It ultimately becomes useless and its only a matter of time before it is forced to die because of the aforementioned longevity issues. It is literally dead weight against stall teams. A pokemon in A+rank should be able to at least have some functionality against all playstyles.
At the same time, its ability to avoid a OHKO by a lot of things puts a dent against offense teams and for that I feel is enough to offset its weaknesses but only up till the point of A rank
TLDR keep blastoise at A rank
1. Megatoise is worn down way too easily. Considering its the primary hazard remover of most teams, it will be switching into hazards and taking damage that it cannot recover. Add in chip damage when it comes to take a hit and Blastoise is running out of health and longevity way too soon for a hazard remover. It simply cannot be used to switch into hazards multiple times and at the same time be asked to switch into threats. Too many things can 2hko blastoise after just 1 or 2 switchins to rocks. Also getting affected by tspikes hurts a lot
2. Mega Blastoise is a liability vs stall. Mega Blastoise has no way of doing anything to a stall team which has blissey or florges. It ultimately becomes useless and its only a matter of time before it is forced to die because of the aforementioned longevity issues. It is literally dead weight against stall teams. A pokemon in A+rank should be able to at least have some functionality against all playstyles.
At the same time, its ability to avoid a OHKO by a lot of things puts a dent against offense teams and for that I feel is enough to offset its weaknesses but only up till the point of A rank
TLDR keep blastoise at A rank
Poliwrath to C.
Thus is basically poor man's roarcune. The reason it's kinda good in this meta is that it's a solid counter to standard Gatr and Suicune with Water Absorb. Circle Throw is really good for phazing with chip damage. It's not great, but it'sa great situational catch-all for most Water-types.
Thus is basically poor man's roarcune. The reason it's kinda good in this meta is that it's a solid counter to standard Gatr and Suicune with Water Absorb. Circle Throw is really good for phazing with chip damage. It's not great, but it'sa great situational catch-all for most Water-types.
I'm actually really surprised that Poliwrath hasn't already been placed in the C-rank. It's pretty lame most of the time, but it has some niches and can still put in some serious work throughout a match. Whenever I've used it, it's been on stall, and it performs admirably against Feraligatr, Suicune, and other threats with its standard Rest/Sleep Talk/Circle Throw/Scald set. I like this thing a lot for an NU 'mon, so bump it up a bit if you can.
Serperior for Uber
To be quite honest your second point seems very flawed to me. First of all I would say Blastoise Mega is certainly a threat to stall because it can beat one of the top special walls (Florges) if it gets a burn on the switch in.
Assuming SR is up
252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Scald vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 91-108 (25.2 - 30%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
and if the burn occurs with an average damage roll, lets say 27%, Florges will be sitting at about 54% and burned after factoring in Leftovers. Although she can technically survive and heal off the burn with moderate health still she will be weakened where she cant switch into another scald burn again. And accordng to the damage calculator Florges is the best switch in to Blastoise as he has Aura Sphere for other special walls. The good coverage and power can make it an effective option to wallbreak if it gets one lucky/eventually expected Scald burn.
I'd like to clarify I still think Blastoise is A rank worthy only because it has serious opportunity cost issues with a Mega stone as well as meaning you can't very effectively use Suicune without compromising your defenses (although to be fair Water is the most stackable type imo) as well as the points made by other uses above.
Secondly I think you are putting an unfair burden for a Pokemon's ranking. There are many examples of Pokemon that have little use versus stall but still find themselves highly ranked - take Suicune for instance which can't really hurt a well built stall team because it is such a slow booster with poor coverage on its best sets, ones with CM and Rest. Even at +6 it cannot 2hko Blissey, Slowking, Alomomola, Roserade and a few others letting you have time to status it and phaze it out later (and generally you don't let it get to +6 in the first place). Hydreigon's best Scarf set is laughable for stall. Mega Aero's best set doesn't involve Hone Claws and it can't do much to stall, not even 2HKOing Bold Florges I believe. Admittedly these two can use different sets to deal with stall better (although Taunt Hydreigon is a horrible stallbreaker imo) but Suicune cannot really and overall the idea is the same, Pokemon can be very good while having little utility versus stall.
Personally I think this is one of the reasons why stall is a good playstyle still, because many times your opponent will have a Scarfer or a wall with little utility, or an attacker that is easily walled for whatever reason (Darmanitan never breaks past Alomomola for instance) so the defensive team will get some breathing room whenever one of these are out.
As for ranking Florges I would like to remind everyone that one of her best traits with the CM set is that she can beat her own "counters" if they switch in on a Calm Mind or a Moonblast drop, especially if she is using Calm nature with Calm Mind (not bad at all for this reason). She specifically beats both Nidos (no Poison Jab please), Roserade about half the time factoring in the Sludge Bomb poison chance and a lot more of the time if its defensive Roserade, and some Crobat variants (and even more if you use Bold which still lets you beat the Nidos sometimes and Roserade). Also offensive Specs and 3 attacks I am told is viable.
To be quite honest your second point seems very flawed to me. First of all I would say Blastoise Mega is certainly a threat to stall because it can beat one of the top special walls (Florges) if it gets a burn on the switch in.
Assuming SR is up
252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Scald vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 91-108 (25.2 - 30%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
and if the burn occurs with an average damage roll, lets say 27%, Florges will be sitting at about 54% and burned after factoring in Leftovers. Although she can technically survive and heal off the burn with moderate health still she will be weakened where she cant switch into another scald burn again. And accordng to the damage calculator Florges is the best switch in to Blastoise as he has Aura Sphere for other special walls. The good coverage and power can make it an effective option to wallbreak if it gets one lucky/eventually expected Scald burn.
I'd like to clarify I still think Blastoise is A rank worthy only because it has serious opportunity cost issues with a Mega stone as well as meaning you can't very effectively use Suicune without compromising your defenses (although to be fair Water is the most stackable type imo) as well as the points made by other uses above.
Secondly I think you are putting an unfair burden for a Pokemon's ranking. There are many examples of Pokemon that have little use versus stall but still find themselves highly ranked - take Suicune for instance which can't really hurt a well built stall team because it is such a slow booster with poor coverage on its best sets, ones with CM and Rest. Even at +6 it cannot 2hko Blissey, Slowking, Alomomola, Roserade and a few others letting you have time to status it and phaze it out later (and generally you don't let it get to +6 in the first place). Hydreigon's best Scarf set is laughable for stall. Mega Aero's best set doesn't involve Hone Claws and it can't do much to stall, not even 2HKOing Bold Florges I believe. Admittedly these two can use different sets to deal with stall better (although Taunt Hydreigon is a horrible stallbreaker imo) but Suicune cannot really and overall the idea is the same, Pokemon can be very good while having little utility versus stall.
Personally I think this is one of the reasons why stall is a good playstyle still, because many times your opponent will have a Scarfer or a wall with little utility, or an attacker that is easily walled for whatever reason (Darmanitan never breaks past Alomomola for instance) so the defensive team will get some breathing room whenever one of these are out.
As for ranking Florges I would like to remind everyone that one of her best traits with the CM set is that she can beat her own "counters" if they switch in on a Calm Mind or a Moonblast drop, especially if she is using Calm nature with Calm Mind (not bad at all for this reason). She specifically beats both Nidos (no Poison Jab please), Roserade about half the time factoring in the Sludge Bomb poison chance and a lot more of the time if its defensive Roserade, and some Crobat variants (and even more if you use Bold which still lets you beat the Nidos sometimes and Roserade). Also offensive Specs and 3 attacks I am told is viable.
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I really have no opinion on Florges to A+ yet, but I do find it super interesting that the focus has shifted to the CM set, proof that things are changing. I've used CM Florges extensively lately, but I'm still on the fence. It's an incredibly effective Pokemon, but I feel like there are still too many things in the tier that set up on it or otherwise take advantage of, with some of the best examples being Entei, SubCM Chandelure, Doublade, and Mega Beedrill, which either set up or snatch momentum by using Florges. Notice that I don't think Nidos and Roserade are as good at this because the CM set exists and allows Florges to slowly beat them, depending on their EVs.
As for Mega Blastoise to A+, that's a no for me. Blastoise is incredible, but it does still fare poorly against stall, no matter what people might say. I have seen Blissey far more often than Florges on stall, and both of them can still take on Toise. Even if Florges gets burned, it can, as you said, heal it off, and let's not forget that Synthesis or even Synthesis+Wish is starting to climb in popularity. Florges can also set up CMs on Toise. As for Blissey, well: 252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 226-268 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Meanwhile, Blissey can Thunder Wave you and spam Soft-Boiled and Seismic Toss until Blastoise has been reduced to rubble. Despite this, yes, it can still get past stall, but I agree with hilarious that the main setback is the Mega Stone. That and the fact that Mega Blastoise is a way less reliable Fire-check than some bulky Waters I know thanks to a lack of reliable recovery. You have to run another Fire-check with it (maybe Salamence, Chandelure, or Snorlax) to really beat things like Infernape and Entei, because Toise isn't taking that many Sacred Fires. Blastoise may be able to go toe to toe with a lot of things on offense, but you have to concede that stall and even some balance can give it trouble. It's dangerous and still as relevant as it's ever been, but A+ is a bit of a stretch.
Some other misc. Stuff
Registeel to C or B-: Yes, that thing is really bulky and an asset to stall
Feraligatr from S to A+: no lol, there is ample evidence that it should stay where it is
As for Mega Blastoise to A+, that's a no for me. Blastoise is incredible, but it does still fare poorly against stall, no matter what people might say. I have seen Blissey far more often than Florges on stall, and both of them can still take on Toise. Even if Florges gets burned, it can, as you said, heal it off, and let's not forget that Synthesis or even Synthesis+Wish is starting to climb in popularity. Florges can also set up CMs on Toise. As for Blissey, well: 252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 226-268 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Meanwhile, Blissey can Thunder Wave you and spam Soft-Boiled and Seismic Toss until Blastoise has been reduced to rubble. Despite this, yes, it can still get past stall, but I agree with hilarious that the main setback is the Mega Stone. That and the fact that Mega Blastoise is a way less reliable Fire-check than some bulky Waters I know thanks to a lack of reliable recovery. You have to run another Fire-check with it (maybe Salamence, Chandelure, or Snorlax) to really beat things like Infernape and Entei, because Toise isn't taking that many Sacred Fires. Blastoise may be able to go toe to toe with a lot of things on offense, but you have to concede that stall and even some balance can give it trouble. It's dangerous and still as relevant as it's ever been, but A+ is a bit of a stretch.
Some other misc. Stuff
Registeel to C or B-: Yes, that thing is really bulky and an asset to stall
Feraligatr from S to A+: no lol, there is ample evidence that it should stay where it is
P.S. I will be posting about a certain bird () in the near future and how it should rise, but I will save that for a different post :)
Mandibuzz to A!!!
So here it goes...
Mandibuzz has been an amazing asset since it dropped. Its great bulk and decent defensive typing is what got it its spot in A-. Well I am here to tell you that Mandibuzz's reign in A- is over! It is time for Mandibuzz to move up to A and I will happily explain why.
Mandibuzz has become a major player for balance teams so much so that every time I try to build a team, it somehow ends up on that team. The utility this bird brings to the table is unmatched and in my opinion most balance teams need this bird on their team. And the funny thing is I am not even wanting it bumped for its "main" set which happens to include Defog. I personally like running Taunt, Roost, Knock Off, Foul Play with Toxic / U-turn > Knock Off sometimes. Overall, Mandibuzz fits a unique role on balance teams as it can be a stallbreaker and a deterrent to certain physical set-up sweepers thanks to Foul Play and special attackers such as Reuniclus thanks to Taunt. Mandibuzz also has amazing natural bulk, giving it the freedom to run some Speed to hit certain threats like Suicune and Gligar while also having enough bulk to still take super effective hits from the likes of Florges, itemless Heliolisk, and so on. While Mandibuzz is sometimes hard pressed to fit all it wants to into the 4 moveslots given to it, it can usually perform its role well. Its bulk coupled with its utility is what has made it the balance staple it is now. In all honesty, I feel like Mandibuzz has finally proven just how good it is in this meta and as such deserves a rise to A.
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okay well I'm actually going to nom something
Fletchinder/Linda to B- or B
okay well this thing dropped to C awhile back, with pretty much no explanation or argument on either side, which kinda sucks but w/e. I'm gonna make an argument as to why it should rise back to B- or even B. :)
At first glance, Fletchinder might not look that great, with 62/55/52 defenses and a 4x weakness to SR. The main thing that makes this little bird so good is its access to Gale Wings, Swords Dance and Acrobatics I guess (lol Brave Bird Fletchinder when imo tbh). On teams that I've been using with Fletchinder, I've been using a full HP variant since the classic Honchkrow speed creep is kind of irrelevant now, due to how uncommon Honch actually is. Full HP helps you survive uninvested Suicune, Regular Swampert, and Vaporeon/Empoleon (~40% Chance to live these 2) Scalds. The full HP investment can actually help you wall a few common threats in the tier, like Cobalion, Heracross (bar stone edge variants), and Doublade (beats it 1 on 1 w/ WoW/Roost games). On the offensive side, this thing can be a real win condition tbh. At +2, it can OHKO almost half the tier after rocks with Acrobatics, which is pretty impressive tbh. It can also cripple common switchins like Empoleon or Aerodactyl with Will-O-Wisp, which really helps its late game capability.
Fletchinder/Linda to B- or B
okay well this thing dropped to C awhile back, with pretty much no explanation or argument on either side, which kinda sucks but w/e. I'm gonna make an argument as to why it should rise back to B- or even B. :)
At first glance, Fletchinder might not look that great, with 62/55/52 defenses and a 4x weakness to SR. The main thing that makes this little bird so good is its access to Gale Wings, Swords Dance and Acrobatics I guess (lol Brave Bird Fletchinder when imo tbh). On teams that I've been using with Fletchinder, I've been using a full HP variant since the classic Honchkrow speed creep is kind of irrelevant now, due to how uncommon Honch actually is. Full HP helps you survive uninvested Suicune, Regular Swampert, and Vaporeon/Empoleon (~40% Chance to live these 2) Scalds. The full HP investment can actually help you wall a few common threats in the tier, like Cobalion, Heracross (bar stone edge variants), and Doublade (beats it 1 on 1 w/ WoW/Roost games). On the offensive side, this thing can be a real win condition tbh. At +2, it can OHKO almost half the tier after rocks with Acrobatics, which is pretty impressive tbh. It can also cripple common switchins like Empoleon or Aerodactyl with Will-O-Wisp, which really helps its late game capability.
LINDA (Fletchinder) (F)
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Roost
- Swords Dance
- Will-O-Wisp
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Roost
- Swords Dance
- Will-O-Wisp
(Against some top ranked Pokemon)+2 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 295-348 (90.7 - 107%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 270-318 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Fletch survives one scald from full)
+1 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 243-286 (73.4 - 86.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 324-382 (90.2 - 106.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heliolisk: 225-265 (84.9 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-C: 255-300 (105.8 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Those are just a few calcs but I think you get the point lmao. Fletchinder definitely has better sweeping potential over some other Pokemon ranked higher than it, like Honchkrow or Mega Absol, which have to rely on Sucker Punch mind games most of the time and can't click their priority move mindlessly like Linda, which sucks ofc. But yeah, I'd prefer Fletch rise to B because honestly this thing is a monster but it's definitely not C material imo, B- at the least.
also here's a replay from UU open with 2 top players that demonstrates how good Linda is :^) http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-83359
also here's a replay from UU open with 2 top players that demonstrates how good Linda is :^) http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-83359
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I saw someone mom Galv for B+ but didn't generate much discussion so I thought I'd share my opinion. I definitely support this despite its poor reputation of being a shitmon. I know this doesn't mean much, but I hate playing teams with Galvantula because a lot of my teams (and others' teams) rely on fast offensive mons to check others (I.e Cobalion to check Lucario) due to the prevalence of "balance breakers" dissuading the use of defensive checks. Thus, having webs up leaves these teams very vulnerable. It also gets a really bad reputation since most Galv users are low ladder players who run the trash Focus Sash Lead set and then run a bunch of passive mons that's allow for easy spinning or defogging. However, LO/Specs Glav is actually a pain to switch into (seriously, Bug + Electric is a really nice pair of STABs with Grass coverage to bop Swamperts). Yeah it has it's fair share of counters like Lax, Florges, Gligar, Nidoqueen and others but notice how none of these switchins can remove hazards besides Gligar. But, we all know how Gligar isn't the hardest mon to take advantage of (think any set up sweeper ever). Getting back to the point, Galv's beautifully accurate Thunders and great speed tier makes it nearly impossible to remove webs until you force Galv out. Faster defoggers (Aero, Bat) are one tapped by Thunder so you can't Defog on it, and slower ones (Emp, Mence, Mandi, Tenta, Donphan, Forry) are all at least 2HKOed by Thunder or Energy Ball. The 30% chance to para also is a huge pain since getting your Florges parad on the switch can potentially be fatal.
The fact that a lot of offensive teams don't even run hazard control makes Galv all the more viable. For a concrete example, dodmen's sample team with Mega Doom runs 0 defoggers or spinners and is thus very vulnerable to webs. I'm sure that's not the only HO team without hazard control, so pretty much any of these teams are at a huge disadvantage against webs for obvious reasons.
The fact that a lot of offensive teams don't even run hazard control makes Galv all the more viable. For a concrete example, dodmen's sample team with Mega Doom runs 0 defoggers or spinners and is thus very vulnerable to webs. I'm sure that's not the only HO team without hazard control, so pretty much any of these teams are at a huge disadvantage against webs for obvious reasons.
Changes incoming...
Reuniclus (A+ to S)
Florges (A to A+)
Registeel (Unranked to C)
Mega Steelix (C to B-)
Poliwrath (unranked to C)
Fletchinder (C to B-) [I think I was unfair in dropping this thing twice... Fletchinder is pretty weak and extremely frail, but gale wings acrobatics is pretty cool and surprisingly strong from a base 73 attack stat. Still, I don't think it's sensible to rise something past B- when it is as frail and weak as Fletchinder-- especially because it's 4x weak to rocks.]
Nominations:
Galvantula (B to B+)- I personally support this one. But I know Galvantula gets a lot of hate and reference as a "low-ladder" mon, so I don't want to jump into anything without support.
Mandibuzz (A- to A)- Really unsure how I feel about this one. I've never been a huge fan of mandibuzz to be honest. Use this post (http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...anking-thread-m3.3541343/page-19#post-6402022) to reference for reasoning as to why Mandi should rise or drop.
Mega Abomasnow (A- to A)- Although I really love aboma and think it's a great mega, the utility of using Blastoise/Beedrill/Swampert/Aero/Sharpedo seems too gravitating for abomasnow to be A material. Of course, any good builder can do very well with any mega, but I think aboma is more flawed than these other megas. A huge reasoning behind abomasnow's A- status is UU's plethora of great megas that we can use instead of abomasnow. That being said, ice is one of the deadliest offensive typings, and offense/balance struggle constantly to stand up to a +2 abomasnow. On top of fantastic bulk and being one of the best overall checks to gatr, aboma has a lot going for it.
Mega Sharpedo (A to A+)- Speaking of the viability of megas... I really think Sharpedo is just as good as Beedrill/Swampert/Aero even though it performs a different role. One of the great things about mega sharpedo is that you can play it differently depending on what style you play. You can use sharpedo as a late-game sweeper, waiting to get +1 speed and drop monstrous strong jaw boosted moves onto your opponent, or you can mega early vs more bulky teams and start throwing off neutral crunches with a nice base 105 speed. Ice fang getting the boost is also very important to nail pokemon like whimsicott, and the bulk boost is surprisingly really useful for sharpedo. The only thing Sharpedo doesn't really appreciate is the weak base 80 water STAB without a strong jaw boost. Of course, one could use hydro pump instead of waterfall for mixed wallbreaking capabilities, but the power behind it is still lackluster.
Of course, I know some people will disagree with the reuniclus decision. However, there were no significant arguments against it in either this thread or the VR council discussion. Feel free to post about reuniclus-- whether you agree with the decision or not.
Reuniclus (A+ to S)
Florges (A to A+)
Registeel (Unranked to C)
Mega Steelix (C to B-)
Poliwrath (unranked to C)
Fletchinder (C to B-) [I think I was unfair in dropping this thing twice... Fletchinder is pretty weak and extremely frail, but gale wings acrobatics is pretty cool and surprisingly strong from a base 73 attack stat. Still, I don't think it's sensible to rise something past B- when it is as frail and weak as Fletchinder-- especially because it's 4x weak to rocks.]
Nominations:
Galvantula (B to B+)- I personally support this one. But I know Galvantula gets a lot of hate and reference as a "low-ladder" mon, so I don't want to jump into anything without support.
Mandibuzz (A- to A)- Really unsure how I feel about this one. I've never been a huge fan of mandibuzz to be honest. Use this post (http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...anking-thread-m3.3541343/page-19#post-6402022) to reference for reasoning as to why Mandi should rise or drop.
Mega Abomasnow (A- to A)- Although I really love aboma and think it's a great mega, the utility of using Blastoise/Beedrill/Swampert/Aero/Sharpedo seems too gravitating for abomasnow to be A material. Of course, any good builder can do very well with any mega, but I think aboma is more flawed than these other megas. A huge reasoning behind abomasnow's A- status is UU's plethora of great megas that we can use instead of abomasnow. That being said, ice is one of the deadliest offensive typings, and offense/balance struggle constantly to stand up to a +2 abomasnow. On top of fantastic bulk and being one of the best overall checks to gatr, aboma has a lot going for it.
Mega Sharpedo (A to A+)- Speaking of the viability of megas... I really think Sharpedo is just as good as Beedrill/Swampert/Aero even though it performs a different role. One of the great things about mega sharpedo is that you can play it differently depending on what style you play. You can use sharpedo as a late-game sweeper, waiting to get +1 speed and drop monstrous strong jaw boosted moves onto your opponent, or you can mega early vs more bulky teams and start throwing off neutral crunches with a nice base 105 speed. Ice fang getting the boost is also very important to nail pokemon like whimsicott, and the bulk boost is surprisingly really useful for sharpedo. The only thing Sharpedo doesn't really appreciate is the weak base 80 water STAB without a strong jaw boost. Of course, one could use hydro pump instead of waterfall for mixed wallbreaking capabilities, but the power behind it is still lackluster.
Of course, I know some people will disagree with the reuniclus decision. However, there were no significant arguments against it in either this thread or the VR council discussion. Feel free to post about reuniclus-- whether you agree with the decision or not.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Omfuga, but did anyone actually explicitly agree with Reun to S? I read through all the posts and most of them were undecided, saying that while they wouldn't be surprised if Reun got moved up, they weren't saying a yes or a no. The other posts were explicit Nos. If what I said were true, what made Reun move up? Was it just an executive decision by the team? If so, sorry for this bs post btw. And I'm personally iffy on it as well. I really just need to play/ladder more to get a better sense of the current meta, but school sucks lol.
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