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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)

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Your argument about Emboar's raw power is pretty convincing, I'll have to admit, and it does have the moves that it fundamentally needs to succeed. I ran some Head Smash and Wild Charge calcs and they are quite impressive. However, that doesn't quite cover everything about an offensive threat.

The main thing that I notice here is that most of Emboar's deadliest moves cause recoil. Flare Blitz, Wild Charge, and especially Head Smash take their toll on this 'mon after a few uses, and against the defensive teams that Emboar mostly attempts to break, this can be a game-changer thanks to recoil stacking with other stall staples like hazards and status. Yes, I know that Darmanitan, Entei, and Infernape also run Flare Blitz from time to time, but in that case it's those mons' only recoil move. Besides, Darm and Ape can often U-turn out anyway, avoiding recoil altogether, and Entei mostly uses Flare Blitz as a sort of last resort for when Sacred Fire is out of PP. Emboar, on the other hand, can be running a grand total of 3 recoil moves on its wallbreaker set, and those are its most vital moves, making it really hard to do enough damage to make an impact. Even if you do manage to hit a 'mon like Salamence or Suicune for that insane damage that you've showcased, you may still kill yourself in the process, and the defensive 'mon can heal itself or switch into a teammate capable of doing so. Its other STAB move, Superpower, doesn't help either, and its attack-lowering side-effect often lets any user of the move down.

Obviously, it has an adverse matchup against offense as well most of the time. It's in the same category as other slow wallbreakers like Pangoro in that it's very hard to switch something into it, but it has too many offensive checks to make it work. Moltres, Krookodile, Salamence, the Nidos, Mega Blastoise, Mega Swampert, Feraligatr, Mega Sharpedo, Mamoswine, and others can kill it off easily or scare it out, potentially setting up game-winning boosts in the process. Its low speed is far too easily taken advantage of, and once again, it can still murder itself if it has to switch in too many times thanks to rapidly accumulating recoil.

In short, while its attacks may hurt like the dickens, Emboar has pathetic staying power. All of its moves bar Grass Knot have annoying side effects that can play right into the hands of an opponent. If i wanted to use this thing at all, I'd probably use it in Trick Room or something so that its pitiful speed actually becomes an asset, but even then I'd probably use Escavalier or something of that nature. I agree that it isn't outclassed in every aspect, but it comes pretty close, and the recoil is the nail in the coffin when it comes to its viability. Still unranked in my eyes.
 
I think everyone can agree that Emboar has the potential to break walls, but that really isn't the question that we need to ask here. The question that needs asking is this, "Does the viability of x, who fills the same role as y, reduce the viability of y?". Basically what I am saying is should we keep something ranked despite it being outclassed in 90% of its roles by things that are faster, stronger, have more utility, and share the same typing? In my opinion, the answer to this question is no. Despite the fact that Emboar stacks up compared to other C rank pokemon that doesn't change the fact that it is completely obsolete when you look at the tier as a whole (think scrafty, also unranked despite not being terrible).
 
I've actually been thinking that RU's new format is pretty neat. I'd support the same change here, if it was ever on the cards.

We used to have this system, but we found that the lower ranks swiftly got out of date because noone used those pokemon with enough frequency to say whether Weezing was better than Drapion, for example.
 
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have small niches in the UnderUsed metagame, but have numerous notable flaws that prevent them from being effective the majority of the time. Pokemon in the C tier require extensive support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon, or their niches aren't all too useful for the current metagame.


Congratulations yaboo you just described a C-Rank pokemon
 
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have small niches in the UnderUsed metagame, but have numerous notable flaws that prevent them from being effective the majority of the time. Pokemon in the C tier require extensive support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon, or their niches aren't all too useful for the current metagame.

Congratulations yaboo you just described a C-Rank pokemon

Not really. He described Emboar as completely obsolete, not just an incredibly niche Pokemon. I think he means to say that it's not C-rank material.
 
Emboar isn't obsolete at all. His notable nitch is being able to 2HKO / stop recovery on the tier's "cro" mons (Reuniclus, Snorlax, Suicune, Florges) which isn't always the case with the other fire types of the tier. Infernape's base power is too low, and Entei and Darmanitan almost always are required to be choiced. Emboar's access to Sucker Punch also means it's not revenged by MBeedrill, pretty much the tier's top revenge killer.

I built an Emboar team for R1 of GS but ended up not using it, didn't save any replays ofc. from testing but playing against standard balance teams which use stuff like Cune / Florges / Reuniclus as their switch in to physically offensive threats is like dinner for Emboar. The same can't be said for the other three in the same way.
 
Emboar isn't obsolete at all. His notable nitch is being able to 2HKO / stop recovery on the tier's "cro" mons (Reuniclus, Snorlax, Suicune, Florges) which isn't always the case with the other fire types of the tier. Infernape's base power is too low, and Entei and Darmanitan almost always are required to be choiced. Emboar's access to Sucker Punch also means it's not revenged by MBeedrill, pretty much the tier's top revenge killer.

I built an Emboar team for R1 of GS but ended up not using it, didn't save any replays ofc. from testing but playing against standard balance teams which use stuff like Cune / Florges / Reuniclus as their switch in to physically offensive threats is like dinner for Emboar. The same can't be said for the other three in the same way.

I'm about 2000% certain that birdasaurous is the revenge kill apex predator.

That said when dealing with fossil bird emboar has the power typing and bulk to get in, do its job, and then not get pursuited (chandy), Maero cannot flat out swap in on without rocks up (Infernape), and it can actually threaten the Ohko unlike Entie/Darm to prevent shenanigans.

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Sorry for the topic change, but can we talk about how Maero can check or counter 80% of the tier with any given set, has like 27 sets, and functions both well on and against every single teamstyle? Seriously look at your team, now back to Maero, now back to your team, chances are Maero can be slapped onto that team with 0 support and to the job you want it to do perfectly, now look at your team again, back to me, back to your team, its maero taking a dump on your team, I'm on a birdasaurous, chirp.

(No really A+ Maero is a complete joke, it's practically the definition of an S rank pokemon)

Then again i think shit like Gatr/Reun fit A+ far better than S due to their absurd 4mss, these are pokemon who really do require support to function optimally and have actual drawbacks in teambuilding, their power makes up for it and they are absolutely top tier threats, but that is just not what Srank is. So yeah, take it as you will.
 
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Like I said before, Infernape is a faster but weaker Emboar, and doesn't get revenged by a bajillion things that Emboar does. Sucker Punch saves you from a couple pokemon but in most situations, there is something that will still outspeed you unless the team being used is strange. Sucker Punch wont stop Gatr, Hydreigon, Salamence, Offensive Suicune, Aero, Cobalion, Entei, Krook, Mamo, Mega Pert, Mega Stoise, Crobat, Offensive Empo, Heracross, Nidoqueen, Sharpedo, Mienshao, Shaymin, and 100 others from revenging you. Every Fire type in this tier breaks walls. For example, Entei burns them to power through later, Infernape sets up and kills with coverage, and Darmanitan just blows them away with Flare Blitz. Emboar fulfills a similar role while just being a major liability in the speed department. You take a slot of your team that could be used for a soft Mamo Check and instead add on something that gets outsped by the vast majority of the tier while receiving almost nothing in return. Emboar is marginally better than other fire types at breaking walls but at an extreme cost. Emboar's strengths don't set it apart enough from the other noted fire types to account for its drawbacks, simple as that.

Also a side note, Emboar doesn't have any notable bulk over Infernape.
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Emboar: 216-255 (59.8 - 70.6%)
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 202-238 (68.9 - 81.2%)
That 10% goes away the second you click anything on your moveset.
 
Like I said before, Infernape is a faster but weaker Emboar, and doesn't get revenged by a bajillion things that Emboar does. Sucker Punch saves you from a couple pokemon but in most situations, there is something that will still outspeed you unless the team being used is strange. Sucker Punch wont stop Gatr, Hydreigon, Salamence, Offensive Suicune, Aero, Cobalion, Entei, Krook, Mamo, Mega Pert, Mega Stoise, Crobat, Offensive Empo, Heracross, Nidoqueen, Sharpedo, Mienshao, Shaymin, and 100 others from revenging you. Every Fire type in this tier breaks walls. For example, Entei burns them to power through later, Infernape sets up and kills with coverage, and Darmanitan just blows them away with Flare Blitz. Emboar fulfills a similar role while just being a major liability in the speed department. You take a slot of your team that could be used for a soft Mamo Check and instead add on something that gets outsped by the vast majority of the tier while receiving almost nothing in return. Emboar is marginally better than other fire types at breaking walls but at an extreme cost. Emboar's strengths don't set it apart enough from the other noted fire types to account for its drawbacks, simple as that.

Also a side note, Emboar doesn't have any notable bulk over Infernape.
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Emboar: 216-255 (59.8 - 70.6%)
252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 202-238 (68.9 - 81.2%)
That 10% goes away the second you click anything on your moveset.

Probably faster, since if you go for another move, you're putting yourself in the dirt.
 
I don't think Aerodactyl is S-rank material anymore. I can't see how one could justify it as a better mega than beedrill/swampert/sharpedo in the current meta. Also, even as a mega evolution, it doesn't play as deadly of a role in building/practice as Suicune/Gatr/Mence do
 
Adding on to what omfuga said, aero sort of naturally gets answered with the style of teambuilding that is common in uu at the moment. This is different to other megas who require more forethought in some aspects. Aero is great and normally does its job but it just simply isn't as effective as it was in the past.
 
Ok gonna make some changes.

Mandibuzz (A- to A)
Mega Abomasnow (A- to A)
Galvantula (B to B+)
Mega Sharpedo (A to A+)
Emboar (C to Unranked)
Flygon (C to Unranked)
Exploud (C to Unranked)
Hoopa (Unranked to "New Pokemon")

As for nominations:

Venomoth (B+ to A-)- I think Venomoth's impact in the tier is huge and it's one of the most deadly sweepers. I think it measures up as a huge balance-killer to a lot of the other A- sweepers (Slurpuff, Toxicroak, Lucario)

Hoopa (Unranked to ???)- Thinking B for Hoopa. Feel free to provide replays as I'd like to see what you guys have done with it.

Aerodactyl (B- to B)

Tangrowth (B+ to A-)

Froslass (B+ to A-)

Goodra (B- to C)
 
Hoopa to B+ rank
720_hoopa_by_3d_poke_sprites-d8hkamz.gif


Hoopa is a very cool addition to the UU meta able to take on stall pretty effectively as well as clean late game with its OTR set. It's immense power is usable but somewhat squandered by its speed and low defensive stat. It is VERY easy to prepare for hoopa but it is still a major threat considering its coverage and support options that can benefit Hoopa. One of the best strategies for Hoopa is Sticky Web. Sticky web allows hoopa to outspeed threats as well as block rapid spinners from taking away the webs. When hoopa comes to mind I think a special Tyrantrum with a lot less physical bulk. They both are massive wall breakers around the same speed with Tyrantrum at 71 and Hoopa at 70. Tyrantrum is A- but does not have as many defensive flaws as hoopa. Hoopa is a great stall killer a lot like Pangoro is considered. Pangoro is at B ranking. Hoopa can do a little bit more than just break stall so I went with the middle ground. B+ puts it into a rank with Darmanitan, Haxorus, and Nidoking. It seems well fitted.

Pros
  • Massive Special Attack
  • Enough speed to break walls
  • Access to Nasty Plot
  • Coverage for "Switch ins"
  • Trick Room option
  • Decent defensive stats
  • Ghost type scare
A big misconception of Hoopa is that it's physical defense is very bad. This is not the case. We are not looking at a mega beedrill here; we are looking at a pokemon with 80hp and 60def. That is enough to take physical hits from common scarfers and even a Stone Edge from Mega Aero 252+ Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 237-279 (78.7 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. One other major thing that people may be overlooking is that Hoopa is a ghost type. Choiced fighing mons will hesitate to go for their stab. Its a lot like the Hazard Espeon effect. Having a ghost type on your team puts a mental strain on your opponent.

Cons
  • Low speed for scarfer/ revenge killer
  • Fast for a Trick room abuser
  • Bad Typing
  • Needs quite a bit of support
  • Not splashable
Hoopa is really easy to counter on its own and is a little harder with support like sticky web. Here is an image of my opponent having webs up and dying to Maero pursuit.
upload_2015-9-6_14-13-18-png.49129
Hoopa's typing is very unfortunate. We have the nice offensive ghost but coupled with psychic makes hoopa very vulnerable to dark moves and especially Pursuit. Hoopa is not on the level of Chandelure. Chandelure can live a pursuit as well as wall significant portions of the meta. Hoopa cannot. 80 speed is also a lot better than 70! Below is a list of mons that take advantage of that difference of 10 speed.
284 / Chandelure, Gallade, Glalie, Mamoswine / 80 / +Spe / 252 / 0
283 / Krookodile / 92 / Neutral / 252 / 0
280 / Feraligatr / 78 / +Spe / 252 / 0
279 / Lucario, Meloetta, Porygon-Z / 90 / Neutral / 252 / 0
273 / Absol, Beedrill, Smeargle / 75 / +Spe / 252 / 0
273 / Hitmonlee / 87 / Neutral / 252 / 0
271 / Rotom-C, Rotom-H / 86 / Neutral / 252 / 0
270 / Meloetta / 90 / +Spe / 120 / 0
269 / Kingdra, Heracross, Nidoking, Toxicroak / 85 / Neutral / 252 / 0
268 / Whimsicott / 116 / Neutral / 0 / 0
267 / Slurpuff / 72 / +Spe / 252 / 0
265 / Honchkrow, Tyrantrum / 71 / +Spe / 252 / 0
-----Timid-----
260 / Porygon-Z / 90 / Neutral / 176 / 0
259 / Chandelure, Gallade, Kabutops, Mamoswine, Stoutland / 80 / Neutral / 252 / 0
255 / Feraligatr / 78 / Neutral / 252 / 0
249 / Absol, Beedrill / 75 / Neutral / 252 / 0
243 / Suicune / 85 / Neutral / 148 / 0
242 / Tentacruel / 100 / Neutral / 24 / 0
242 / Rotom-H / 86 / Neutral / 136 / 0
242 / Cresselia / 85 / Neutral / 144 / 0
242 / Fletchinder / 84 / Neutral / 152 / 0
241 / Honchkrow, Tyrantrum / 71 / Neutral / 252 / 0
-----Modest-----

Honestly B+ may be too little or too generous for Hoopa but I believe its the best thing for it in our current meta. Our meta is really hoopa's biggest problem. The most relaible set right now would be an OTR cleaner set. It can work against any style of play. The best against stall would ofc be Nastly Plot sweeper. This is not very effective against faster play styles. The best against offense would be scarf. Scarf still leaves you slow but you can do damage and hope your opponent does not have a pursuit trapper. Alright thats all for now! Leave your critiques.
 
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I don't really have any real opinions on the others, but I have to agree with Hoopa for B. When you look at it, you see a menacing Special Attack and Special Defense and a workable Attack. Otherwise, its stats are junk. It gets Pursuit trapped by every single viable user of Pursuit, and can't even try to mindgame around it with not switching / Substitute because it's 4x weak to it. This is especially annoying when you see that they're naturally faster than Hoopa and already some of the best Pokemon in the tier. Also, while its Special Defense is good, if you so much as poke it with a physical stick it's going to die. It has almost no switch-in opportunities because it has very few resistances and 2 glaring weaknesses. This is especially bad when you consider that most Pokemon that are resisted by Hoopa often carry a move that OHKOes it. Additionally, Hoopa is just too damn slow to get more than a single kill against offense if that.

However so this doesn't sound like I'm shitting on Hoopa, it does have some nice advantages. It absolutely destroys stall teams, being able to 2HKO almost every Pokemon in the tier and can run different coverage to smack different threats. Also, thanks to Psyshock, not even really specially bulky Pokemon can take it on without getting 2HKOed. I've been running a LO set (though Sub NP is probably better) with Psyshock / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Thunderbolt (fuck Mandibuzz) and stall teams crumble before it.
 
Not gonna comment on Hoopa since I have yet to use it significantly, I may nom it later when I can come back with legit playtesting experience for it.

On the other hand, I can definitely get behind Venomoth and Froslass moving up to A-. Venomoth is really good right now, as it's a deadly Quiver Dance sweeper, and Tinted Lens Bug Buzz is really good in this metagame as it stands. It has a decent typing to set up with, and with Sleep Powder it can incapacitate slower opponents and proceed to easily set up, especially on shit like Florges (this is a rather huge deal tbh), as well as take on Fighting- and Grass-type moves, which are rather common in UU rn. Not many things can take a Tinted Lens Bug Buzz after a boost or two so as long as you get rid of things like Chandelure and Cobalion then you're in a pretty good position to sweep with just Bug Buzz, or possibly Sludge Bomb too to hit some things like Crobat harder. It can also use a bunch of other tricks like Sub or Roost that help it set up much easier.

Froslass is really good as a spiker. It's really fast and can set up Spikes really quickly and reliably. It can also spinblock the spikes it sets up, so nothing can spin against it while it spikes, and it can use Taunt to stop Gligar or Mandibuzz from Defogging Spikes. It also has Ice Beam to hit a lot of our Defog users rather hard, and it has Destiny Bond which allows it to potentially nab a kill if used right. Cursed Body is also really effective to occasionally shut down a move of the opponent, meaning it can force a switch and accumulate more Spikes damage. It's an overall really good lead and I think it deserves A- because of how good it is for offense.

Goodra seems fine. I get that Salamence and Hydreigon are generally much better than it, but it has some decent uses. It can check a sizable number of special attackers in UU, such as Mega Blastoise, Chandelure, Galvantula, Heliolisk, Shaymin (it switches into Seed Flare for free), and a lot more, while with CB or even Specs along with its wide offensive movepool, it can dish out a good deal of pain in return. It has really good coverage with CB, as Outrage hits hard, EQ allows it to hit Steels, it has Iron Tail to smash Florges, and it can also smash bulky waters with Power Whip. It can switch in on a Venomoth too and absorb a Sleep Powder while potentially scare it out with Outrage or something. It has the sheer bulk to stomach a Bug Buzz from Venomoth too. It's not really that amazing since it has no recovery and Mence and Hydreigon are usually better but I think it's worthy of its current rank at the very least. It's at least as viable as Fletchinder, Virizion, and Amoonguss, which have a good deal of flaws themselves.

Not gonna comment on Tangrowth as I haven't used it much.
 
I've faced hoopa like once tho this is quite subject to change but imo this thing is a solid A- at least, it steamrolls defensive playstyles and while it's pursuit bait etc it's really powerful. Stall will probably adapt to this thing but holy shit it just one mans defensive playstylesplaystyles and can probably wreck most teams if it gets a bit or two in. I'll probably test against this thing more but its being severely underestimated imo.
 
goodra_by_elycian-d6x092y.png
Every time we try to push Goodra to C, I find myself disagreeing. No, it doesn't have the raw power of Salamence or Hydreigon or Amphy or Dragalge, or the splashability of the former two, but it's always had its role and filled it well. And bar Mamoswine, which the tier has adjusted to just fine, nothing much has stopped it from fulfilling this role. Its immense bulk and huge movepool (scouting its set can be annoying at best, and nerve-wracking at worst) make it, true to its design, a very effective glue for balance, bulky offence, and semi-stall. It feels right at home when paired with common cores on those sorts of teams, such as Florges-Maggron, since it greatly appreciates cleric support while also making up for their passivity by providing offensive pressure. That's a role that fits it perfectly in B-, IMO, and since very little has changed to make it any less effective, I see no reason for it to go anywhere.
 
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Every time we try to push Goodra to C, I find myself disagreeing. No, it doesn't have the raw power of Salamence or Hydreigon or Amphy or Dragalge, nor the splashability of the former two, but it's always had its role and filled it well. And bar Mamoswine, which the tier has adjusted to just fine, nothing much has stopped it from fulfilling this role. Its immense bulk and huge movepool (scouting its set can be annoying at best, and nerve-wracking at worst) make it, true to its design, a very effective glue for balance, bulky offence, and semi-stall. It feels right at home when paired with common cores on those sorts of teams, such as Florges-Maggron, since it greatly appreciates cleric support while also making up for their passivity by providing offensive pressure. That's a role that fits it perfectly in B-, IMO, and since next to nothing's changed to make it any less effective, I see no reason for it to go anywhere.
Why are all of your posts half pictures?????
Also so this isn't the easiest delete of some mods life:
Goodra B- to C: Agree Goodra has a really decent matchup against offense and balance but frankly the introduction of mamo and mence pushes goodra into C for me even though I have felt it has always been mediocre I now see almost no reason to really use it except for very niche scenarios
Hoopa to B: Agree Hoopa at this point has two good sets imo full stall breaker a set which I believe should give it the B rank because it is one of the best if not the best stall breaker in uu. The other set is a TR LO sweeper which is really cool but I can't comment on it since I have only seen one player use it but it looked very effective. I could also agree to spoof's B+ but I feel that either would be just a place holder while we figure out its deserved ranking once new toy syndrome slows down.
Tangrowth is really the only mon left from the nominations that I have experience with and I think it should rise but I feel that DaSpoofy could write a much better argument either way so I will just let him handle that.
 
Why are all of your posts half pictures?????
Also so this isn't the easiest delete of some mods life:
Goodra B- to C: Agree Goodra has a really decent matchup against offense and balance but frankly the introduction of mamo and mence pushes goodra into C for me even though I have felt it has always been mediocre I now see almost no reason to really use it except for very niche scenarios
Hoopa to B: Agree Hoopa at this point has two good sets imo full stall breaker a set which I believe should give it the B rank because it is one of the best if not the best stall breaker in uu. The other set is a TR LO sweeper which is really cool but I can't comment on it since I have only seen one player use it but it looked very effective. I could also agree to spoof's B+ but I feel that either would be just a place holder while we figure out its deserved ranking once new toy syndrome slows down.
Tangrowth is really the only mon left from the nominations that I have experience with and I think it should rise but I feel that DaSpoofy could write a much better argument either way so I will just let him handle that.


I posted that on mobile, and it looked a lot smaller. I'll replace it with something smaller lol.

Also, there's plenty of reason to use Goodra. Salamence can be a lot of things, but a special tank is not one of them, and I don't think comparing comparing the two is fair. Salamence can't switch into Mega Blastoise, boosted Venomoth, the Nidos, special Infernape, Heliolisk, etc, to fire off a decently powerful and incredibly unpredictable coverage move, unless you're running some shitty AV set. Mence's coverage options are crazy, and that's part of what makes it so versatile, but Goodra's options make Mence look like Wobbuffet. Also, judging Goodra by its ability to take on Mamoswine is like saying Blissey is worthless because it can't take on Heracross. Yes, Mamo threatens the hell out of Goodra, but any well-made balance / bulky offence / semi-stall team, i.e. a team on which Goodra can shine, is more than well-equipped for compensate for this. Think Mola, Cresselia, Forry, phys def Umbreon, etc. Shit, even Snowbama can check Mamo in a pinch. These are all quite passive mons (except Abomasnow) that all appreciate Goodra's ability to fire off respectably strong attacks while being really hard to kill for offence and balance (i.e., to be a tank), when paired with the cleric support those mons provide. So yes, 9 times out of 10 Mence or Hydreigon or something is going to be a better pick than Goodra, but that does not make Goodra outclassed, because no mon can pull off the role of special tank quite like Goodra can. Blissey and Florges are easily taken advantage of due to their passivity, Snorlax can almost never run coverage, and Dragalge is relatively predictable. This makes Goodra unique enough and viable enough for it to stay in B-.
 
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Hello I'd like to make a nomination:

Rotom-C to A Rank

Rotom-C is a mon I used to use a lot but don't really use much anymore. However, I still find it to fill an incredible role in being one of the best Scald switchins on offense. It has incredible typing and utility: Volt Switch is amazing for offensive teams while a bulkier set with Will-o-Wisp can be used on more balanced teams. Kind of a short post I guess but Rotom-C is pretty incredible right now.
 
Yeah, I agree with the Rotom-C nom. One more thing I should add is that Scarf Willo is actually great, as the only 2 moves it really needs are Volt Switch and Leaf Storm, so being a fast burner is really cool, letting it status physical mons before taking a hit. It also works to bluff a bulky set on some scenarios and surprise walls such as Blissey by tricking them the Scarf before they even notice it's choiced.
 
Hoopa -> B+-
after trying multiple hoopa sets such as defensive sub CM, specs, LO, scarf, i have come to see that hoopa C can be great against Special attackers and pokemon that are slower than it and is great at breaking walls, but obviously on the other hand, hoopa is stopped cold by any physical attacker and requires a lot of support to cover for its physical frailty and how easy it is to revenge kill. But with Sticky Web or any form of hazards it can do massive work with little switch because it has such a diverse move pool and great offensive stats. In conclusion hoopa can be great against most special attackers and slow pokemon while being very easy to revenge kill with physical fraility, it has a massive move pool to work with, with great offensive stats but also has bad typing and a bad speed tier, and also requires a lot of team support to work at its best on a team but is a magnificent wall breaker. With a lot of both Pros and Cons, i can see Hoopa being ranked B+
 
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Tangrowth (B+ to A-): Going to have to agree with this one. I've used defensive Tangrowth on most of my balance teams lately as a solid check to many physical type attackers in the tier such as Feraligatr, Mega Swampert, Mega Sharpedo, Krookodile, Doublade, Mienshao, Machamp, Cobalion, etc. I have yet to make a serious team using a more offensive set but I plan to in the near future and may end up adding to this post later on. Tangrowth's 100/125 monstrous physical bulk allows it absorb almost any physical hit and can either deal back heavy damage with moves like leaf storm, hp ice, hp fire, knock off, etc. or simply put them to sleep. The constant leftovers and regenerator recovery leaves Tang at seemingly always healthy amounts of hp to come back for more. Calcs against some common physical attackers:
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 161-192 (39.9 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Feraligatr: 356-420 (114.4 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 124-148 (30.7 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 152-180 (37.7 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 136-162 (33.7 - 40.1%) -- 32.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 157-186 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 153-181 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 111-132 (27.5 - 32.7%) -- 71.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Despite how well it can take on many physical attackers, Tangrowth has straight up awful sp def and should never be left in on a special attacker. While this is a major flaw, I feel Tangrowth's strong stats in the other categories and versatility is enough for it to get the bump up to A-.
 
Hoopa -> B+: After playing with Hoopa I can confidentially say that it is a very powerful wall breaker that is capable of 2HKO'ing nearly the entire meta, and it has a very easy time at breaking down stall cores, and stall teams in general. It might have pitiful defense and speed at 60 and 70 respectively, but most of the stuff on stall tends to be rather slow anyway (except for crobat) and while it struggles against offense, it usually tends to get at least one kill per game, it has it's flaws, like being 4x weak to pursuit, but its sheer wallbreaking and balance breaking power earns it B+ for me.
Rotom-C A- -> A: I agree with Sam that Rotom-C is really great right now, as it's volt switches allows it to pivot in and out against most of the meta, and ground types fear leaf storm. Trick Specs and Trick Scarf allow it to cripple most of what gets in it's way, and will-o-wisp gives it pretty good bulk against most physical attackers.
 
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