Sketchmons ORAS - Diggersby and Shell Smash Banned!

[Akumeoy]

Extreme Speed, Mega Pinsir, Neither, or Both

uhhhhh honestly can we get the sketched move clause as an option here

if no then i'm gonna support mega pinsir ban i guess since i really don't want a meta that's completely without espeed because lol setup

 

[xJownage]

setup would be pretty bad in a no espeed meta, but ditto is very common, its harder to set up at times, and there are plenty of viable revenge killers around. Not gonna dwell on this, you all know i'm in full support of an espeed ban.

Espeed is as broken as chatter. This is exactly the issue. Literally, whoever runs more espeeders wins. If the clause gets put into effect, whoever runs the better espeeder wins. To check all the espeeders, you need to beat ice/ground, fairy/ground/fire, normal/ground, normal/fighting/dark, flying/ground/fighting, and normal/flying/fighting. All of them. If you don't, the right espeeder literally just destroys your team. This is too much to handle for any team that wants to compete against the rest of the meta, and this is exactly what we are seeing now.

 

[Lcass4919]

i personally dont feel like a sketch clause is going to nerf pinsir at all, so i don't see why it should be included. its rare to see teams run more then 1 espeeder, and although i agree the 2 move clause is something to consider, again, pinsir is still just as scary by itself, then with 4 other espeeders beside it. adding the clause into the list of options only shadows from the actual issue at hand, and is something we should consider AFTER the ban.

Mega pinsir however, is a complete shit head, and i say get IT out. there's a reason aerialate has been a problem in every meta that utilizes it. Flying stab is just way too good to be given such powerful priority, and if the pokemon doesn't resist/have a sash, pinsir is going to kill it. its just too strong for its own good.

edit: oh, and i should probably explain why i don't want espeed banned...simply put, its not uncompetative. its a HUUUUGE threat, and a thorn to the metas side, but..other then pinsir, the other users just...dont have enough power to justify its ban. espeed is just...the boomburst/v-create of priority. sure, its overkill good, but...if we considered all overkill moves banworthy, then what type of meta would this be. i think its better to ban the really good abusers, then ban the move itself, since otherwise the meta can actually handle these moves.

 

[Eeyore]

I think Move Clause solves it. I don't think 5 E-speeders is healthy for the metagame, but I don't find Mega Pinsir uncounterable. Feel free to disagree, but I still agree with Lcass4919
, strong is not uncounterable

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Now that Move Clause has been added, my vote obviously goes to Move Clause. I've stated my reason before multiple times. If there is an Extremespeeder that's broken, we can ban it (Mega Pinsir, in this case).

 

[thesecondbest]

Move Clause. Pinsir is counterable but getting your checks worn down really sucks. I dont consider Aggron a counter as a mega should never be the only answer. Things like Skarm that are good in the meta beat Pinsir, but they cant handle tons of espeeders - what if one has a fire move? But Pinsir doesnt seem too strong, it also checks smash users. If it's still broken without trappers and other espeeders to help pressure, ban it, but not yet.

 

[dsm77773]

My vote goes to Move Clause. Reasons going for it have been stated all over the thread.

And YES SHADOW TAG IS GONE!

Now the next thing we should do is ban King's Rock and Razor Fang, it leaves the game up to RNG.

 

[I like donkeys]

I vote for Sketch Move Clause. It's the perfect way to nerf setup and espeed at the same time. Specifically, a move cannot be sketched more than once.
Like most other people i also request a BAN on kings rock/razor fang. Uncompetitiveness of any kind shouldn't be allowed :3

I have discovered a slight problem with the coding, nothing too serious but it's just inconvenient.

r u srs

I tried sketching eruption onto Heatran, but since it learns eruption naturally PS doesn't treat it as a sketched move, and thus the only way to use eruption is with a quiet nature. I'm sure there are other instances of this as well (such as Pikachu with Volt Tackle and Extreme Speed).

EDIT: Do you guys think something may need to be done about Mega Sceptile? I mean i haven't seen it in action but on paper it appears to decimate stall. Sure Clefable walls it to hell and back, but what if the opponent also brings a Dugtrio and eliminates Clef, or is fainted in some other way? They may as well forfeit at point. Stall/balanced may be forced to run things like assvest Thundy-T (which actually isn't a bad choice in the slightest) just so Sceptile doesn't hand their asses to them.
To those who HAVE fought against Mega Sceptile with a stall team, how did you fair? Was it really as bad as i'm making it out to be?

 

[sin(pi)]

I don't really like it but I think a move clause would be the best solution. That said, I think Mega Pinsir needs to to banned from sketching espeed (or just plain banned) - it's completely overcentralising and the only reason I've had no problems with it is because I've built my teams so that it gets almost no opportunities to set up, AND I have 1-2 dedicated checks to it. But if those checks get surprised by a sketch move (earthquake talonflame luring in heatran, for example), then the game may as well be over before it even started.

edit: oh yeah and king's rock/razor fang is stupid , imagine if skymin's air slash was at +1 priority

 

[I like donkeys]

Hey guys I'd like to share a set i am very fond of for Garchomp. It's basically regular tankchomp but with a fun twist.

time for cuddles (Garchomp) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Final Gambit
- Endure

Final Gambit on tankchomp? What is this guy smoking? Why would you waste a perfectly good wall like this and not give it recover or something? I will admit final gambit is quite situational but it is very useful when needed. Normally i use it when there is a troublesome mon that i just want dead ASAP, or if i want to provide momentum for my team when chomp is no longer needed, or to spin/defog block. SR and EQ are your staples, but endure is replaceable, you can opt for dragon tail or something if you want. I mainly use endure because it's so fun trolling physical attackers when they think that darn tankchomp will FINALLY go down. This set is a good lure for things like Rotom-W who would otherwise have a field day with chomp. So yeah, hope liek it :3

Here's a replay of me putting Final Gambit to good use: (credits to ayo sb for the battle <3)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/sketchmons-267086349

Also

frankly your stupid

*you're :^)

 

[DoW]

Yeah, I'm going to add my vote to a Move Clause and banning king's rock / razor fang. Move Clause will make espeed, geomancy etc. perfectly easy to deal with without breaking too many valid strategies, while king's rock / razor fang is just uncompetitive.

 

[xJownage]

Move clause is an of course thing, we will have it in the upcoming days for sure.

The problem is the number of espeed users every team has to at least check consistently, leading us to have to run ditto on every team lest we get destroyed by any team with the right espeeder.

 

[The Immortal]

I'm going to vote ban Mega Pinsir. I don't see Extreme Speed spam as an issue. You can slap it on several Pokemon but its only really devastating on Mega Pinsir. Nothing has the ridiculous Attack stat of Mega Pinsir combined with -ate.

Edit@below: No, I'm not.

 

[xJownage]

I'm going to vote ban Mega Pinsir. I don't see Extreme Speed spam as an issue. You can slap it on several Pokemon but its only really devastating on Mega Pinsir. Nothing has the ridiculous Attack stat of Mega Pinsir combined with -ate.

I understand your point, but espeeders like Ursaring are truly uncounterable when played right. Not to mention that Ursaring has the potential to hit harder. Pinsir is an issue; I assume you're in support of the move clause as well?

 

[Iynhe]

I had problems with MPinsir like once or twice. I don't see the necessity of banning it.
About the ESpeed spam, i've never seen it :O I found at least two mons with espeed on a single team, no more. (Maybe because i 'm in the stupid low ladder right now.) Banning it would be horrible, so just apply the move clause, if it's really necessary.
I find more threatening Cloyster with water shuriken and king's rock/razor fang. I found no counter to that, nor checks (and the checks must rely to the chance of NOT getting flinched. :S).

 

[xJownage]

When the peaks of the ladder are literally who can find more espeeders to run, we have a problem. The more espeeders you run, the higher you rise. Mega Pinsir, on the other hand, has no reliable counters and even lacks checks to some extent. Scarfmons and fast electrics are its ONLY checks; everything else just dies.

 

[I like donkeys]

When the peaks of the ladder are literally who can find more espeeders to run, we have a problem. The more espeeders you run, the higher you rise. Mega Pinsir, on the other hand, has no reliable counters and even lacks checks to some extent. Scarfmons and fast electrics are its ONLY checks; everything else just dies.

This post is inaccurate. I am currently No.1 and my team has no espeeders. The guy at no.2 also runs no espeeders i think. The most ive ever run on any team is one. Running espeed spam doesn't directly correlate to increased win rate.

Juuust putting it out there.

 

[xJownage]

This post is inaccurate. I am currently No.1 and my team has no espeeders. The guy at no.2 also runs no espeeders i think. The most ive ever run on any team is one. Running espeed spam doesn't directly correlate to increased win rate.

Juuust putting it out there.

Maybe there are exceptions, but I have noticed a marked pattern - espeed spammers have been way higher on the ladder, and making teams with no espeeders that can consistently win matches is almost impossible.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

See I don't really see a problem with restricting extreme speed outside of those who naturally learn it, we prevent Mega Pinsir from being broken, we prevent a diggersby ban, we prevent a sketch clause, we prevent a Mega Altaria ban and we don't ban Extreme speed as a whole.

The thing that's special about Extreme speed or strong priority in general is how much it makes other pokemon irrelevant. While things like confusion make the game up to rng, and that being one case of uncompetitive, there's also the case of Shadow tag, which prevents the switch mechanics in the game. Priority, should really be used for revenge killing, not sweeping. But with pokemon like Pinsir, Altaria, Diggersby ect who boost the priority to such extreme levels there's very little preventing them from being too good. Seems shitty to neutralise all your opponents sweeper just because of priority... And it doesn't even harm anything, we just prevent the banning of three pokemon

 

[Ghoul King]

Maybe there are exceptions, but I have noticed a marked pattern - espeed spammers have been way higher on the ladder, and making teams with no espeeders that can consistently win matches is almost impossible.

I also have no Extreme Speeders and never have, and I'm doing pretty decent on the ladder. Aside from Mega Pinsir and friggin' Serperior, I haven't had any particular problems. (That and Gothitelle and Gothorita, but Shadow Tag is banned already, thank everything) I've also never seen more than two Extreme Speeders on any team I've fought, and most times it's just the one -Mega Pinsir. I almost never see anything else run Extreme Speed at all.

----

OK here's why I think Mega Pinsir should be banned, and not Extreme Speed.

Mega Pinsir is the only -ate choice with +2 setup, the only one that naturally breaks 100 Speed, and the only one that natively brings perfect coverage to the table. If you resist Flying, the possibilities go like this.

types... +2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 258-304 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's the single Physically bulkiest Rock type in the entire game, and it takes abominable damage from Close Combat. While Regirock is a lot more viable in Sketchmons than in Standard, this is still absurd. A more popular choice is, of course...

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 252-298 (60.8 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

... which takes comparable damage if it's still holding its Eviolite. By the way, did you know Pinsir can learn Knock Off natively? And there's not much reason to run Earthquake alongside Extreme Speed and Close Combat, honestly. Ghost/Rock, Ghost/Electric, and Ghost/Steel are really the only reasons to run Earthquake, and oh wait they all hate Knock Off, especially Eviolite Doublade. (There's no Poison/Rock, Poison/Steel, or Poison/Electric types, so Poison isn't actually a reason to run Earthquake -just Extreme Speed them)

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rhydon: 378-446 (91.3 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Well, there goes that check.

types best case scenario, by far, is Mega Aggron.

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 172-204 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

.... what's that you say? Skarmory is better?

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 170-200 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Nope. Takes slightly more damage, actually suffers when hit with Knock Off, its best attacking retaliation involves hurting itself, and it's a lot more afraid of, say, Magnezone than Mega Aggron is.

Doublade is better, except you hit it with Knock Off on the way in and now it's in real trouble. Also it's vulnerable to Pursuit trapping, to boot.

types have exactly one good option: Zapdos. It's legitimately an impressive one, too.

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 192-227 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not that scary, given that if you're doing this it's because you're letting Zapdos instagib you with Thunderbolt. So there's a pretty hard counter to Mega Pinsir.

But if you're not talking Zapdos? The next most defensible Electric type not weak to Close Combat is Mega Ampharos. After that you're basically either talking unviable Pokemon or Pokemon you'd be insane to run defensively, leading to stuff like

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 258-303 (86.2 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

this. (Which is of course an easy OHKO if you've got Stealth Rock up) Oh, also consider

252 Atk Mega Pinsir Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 161-190 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

followed by

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 129-152 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

In other words, just Extreme Speed, Swords Dance, and Close Combat puts Mega Pinsir in a position to kill almost everything in the entire game, especially if it has hazards support.

---

Other Extreme Speed possibilities are just not that impressive. Putting Extreme Speed on a Normal type is, broadly speaking, comparable to Linoone in OU, where it gets Belly Drum Extreme Speed and nobody cares. Ursaring with Guts-boosted Extreme Speed is easier to get into action, and has better bulk than Linoone before you count the Belly Drum against Linoone, but it actually hits a lot less hard

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 216-255 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 382-450 (112 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and on top of that its base Speed is a lot worse, opening a much larger number of Rock, Steel, and Ghost types as counters/checks by virtue of outspeeding it and putting the hurt on it before it gets in a coverage hit. (For that matter, some Physically bulky neutrally vulnerable cases can tank a hit and hit back hard) I just don't see Guts Ursaring as considerably more scary than Belly Drum Linoone, and meanwhile the rest of the meta has also gotten better. The main advantage Guts Ursaring has is having no fear of Will O Wisp, basically. (Admittedly, you can do Guts Belly Drum Ursaring, but then you're just asking to die horribly having done nothing through sheer self-damage)

It's not even possible to get Scrappy Belly Drum Extreme Speed in Sketchmons, which would be legitimately terrifying.

Which leaves the other -atespeeders.

Mega Glalie is held back by being Mega Glalie. Its coverage is awful, its Speed tier is problematic, it's not that bulky, its boosting options are pathetic. I haven't seen anybody complaining about it, and with good reason.

Mega Gard- yeah I'm joking.

Sylveon... still a joke.

Aurorus, which has the valuable niche of not being a Mega. Its Attack is even respectable, and not that much lower than it Special Attack. Its Physical movepool is OK, too. It's also slow, with a tortuously bad typing, meh stats overall, and easily walled by bulky Steel types. The nicest thing I can say about it is that most people will assume Special Aurorous, and so might botch their switchin.

Mega Salamence is already banned.

Which leaves Mega Altaria. Mega Altaria is slower than Mega Pinsir, has inferior coverage (Albeit the advantage of competent Fire Blasts letting it push past Skarmory and, yes, Physically Defensive Mega Aggron [0 SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 154-183 (44.7 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO] if it cares to do so), has substantially worse Attack, and its boosting is Dragon Dance -which is amazing, but not nearly as terrifying in conjunction with Extreme Speed. Its main advantage is more its unpredictability -Mega Pinsir is Physical, the end, whereas I've seen Boomburst Mega Altaria and it's not terrible- but overall it's vastly less threatening than Mega Pinsir.

So basically Extreme Speed is only notable in the hands of

-A handful of Normal types

-Mega Glalie

-Mega Altaria

-Mega Pinsir

-And maybe Aurorus

Of these, Mega Pinsir and maybe Mega Altaria are the only really scary, potentially uncounterable ones.

So I don't think banning Extreme Speed makes sense, because it's Mega Pinsir that's the problem, not Extreme Speed. Note, additionally, that it already gets Feint. You know what would happen if we banned Extreme Speed? We'd start seeing Belly Drum Feint Mega Pinsir as a thing, which has the same priority number and hits almost as hard as Swords Dance Extreme Speed. (About 3/4ths, specifically) No, seriously. (And of course Belly Drum Close Combat is an easy OHKO on pretty much any wall you care to name that isn't Quagsire or Clefable) Bonus points, you can't Protect stall Feint to get Poison Heal turns or the like. We'd also lose the option of checking stuff like Serperior/the legions of crazy setup choices out there with Extreme Speed, which hurts, though that's a relatively minor detail.

---

I have no particular opinion on Move Clause. I've never built a team that actually had a given move Sketched more than once, and it's not actually that common on enemy teams in my experience. I don't think a Move Clause would have much of an effect, in practice.

 

[xJownage]

Good points. The more I think about it the more I realize that the other espeeders are mostly collateral damage in terms of their brokenness, and only when paired with others do they get overwhelming. I can see a pinsir ban and a move clause.

Move clause would take away the aspect of spamming SD+speed and actually being able to win pretty easily, while abusing users such as ttar, bisharp, etc. Many things can slap Espeed on their SD sets and easily win battles; i think it was aesf who ran a team that was 5 -atespeeders and gothitelle before the ladder started and he won the majority of his battles.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

But why do we need to ban Mega Pinsir, the only reason it's broken is because of Extreme speed. You remove extreme speed and you can still use different sets.

 

[xJownage]

But why do we need to ban Mega Pinsir, the only reason it's broken is because of Extreme speed. You remove extreme speed and you can still use different sets.

It is unintelligent to ban a move because one abuser breaks it. If lucario wasn't so good in MnM, this would be the equivalent of banning extremespeed just because dragonite was broken. It's not exactly practical to ban moves instead of mons unless the move breaks many mons and makes those mons so broken the metagame is in shambles. This is in shambles, but its more because mega pinsir is SO broken and that there is no move clause.

 

[sin(pi)]

~snip~

Speaking of STag, it wasn't banned on the server when I was playing earlier. I don't know how to tag people but it'd be cool if that was fixed


Excellent post, couple of minor nitpicks (sorry but it's in my nature):
You forgot to mention Diggersby as a viable Espeeder.

252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 220-261 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 216-255 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not immune to status, but it hits (very) slightly harder than Ursaring and is much faster, as well as being able to hold a different item if you want, and not having to wait a turn for the orb to activate.

I'd quite like to see Pinsir go as I think it'd open up a lot more creativity (I have a couple of teams which are unviable pretty much entirely because they're 6-0'd by Pinsir), but playing devil's advocate, BD Feint would be much easier to manage. Belly drum halving HP means if it gets forced out, it can't come back in (assuming you take any sort of chip damage), and feint misses out on quite a few KOs/near KOs (notably base 100s: +2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 387-456 (113.4 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO vs +6 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 291-343 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO).

 

[Imperator Romanum]

It is unintelligent to ban a move because one abuser breaks it. If lucario wasn't so good in MnM, this would be the equivalent of banning extremespeed just because dragonite was broken. It's not exactly practical to ban moves instead of mons unless the move breaks many mons and makes those mons so broken the metagame is in shambles. This is in shambles, but its more because mega pinsir is SO broken and that there is no move clause.

No but it's not just one abuser, it's multiple all with their own quirks making them viable and broken



252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 220-261 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Diggersby takes the spot for highest power, that and the ability to boost with swords dance and having an excellent secondary typing in ground, but you're also gifted with numerous coverage moves, Wild charge, Gunk shot, Knock off, Fire punch, Ice punch and Superpower.

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 216-255 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ursaring has its viability in immunity to burn, boosting in swords dance, hitting rock types/steel types with close combat and generally being immensely powerful.

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

We know what it does

252+ Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 177-208 (51.9 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Spikes, ice type and taunt.

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 166-196 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

Immense bulk, DD, unpredictability, boomburst, earthquake, reliable recovery, THIS WILL REPLACE MEGA PINSIR.

252+ Atk Snorlax Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 127-151 (37.2 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Can boost with Belly drum, which is key.

+6 252+ Atk Snorlax Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 253-298 (93.3 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

+5 252+ Atk Snorlax Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 345-406 (90.3 - 106.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

ect ect.

They all have their niches, one will just replace the other. I'd rather have an interesting metagame than this.