-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)
- Thread starter Nayrz
- Start date
- Status
If anything the smart Xerneas player would just Moonblast / Focus Blast the Klefki switch-ins. That is, if we want to be super technical and not suggest silly things. Since Klefki lacks recovery outside of Leftovers Klefki can only switch into Xerneas so many times.
On the contrary Klefki does threaten the majority of sets with Thunder Wave, Toxic, and Play Rough. Spikes also limits Xerneas from switching into play very often as well.
But yeah the only way Xern really gets an upper hand is mono CM with RestTalk or chipping inevitable Klefki switch-ins with Moonblast and / or Focus Blast (Moonblast is sometimes safer just because of the accuracy too). Else...
...but either way I am iffy on Klefki for A+ myself. A lot of S Tier mons can still take some advantage of Klefki or Klefki poses no huge threats to them at all either. ExtremeKiller and MegaMence can at least use Klefki as a possible setup fodder. Mega Sableye hates Play Rough but completely bones 3/4 of Klefki's arsenal. The same with Mega Diance. It also almost gives a free switch-in to PDon and Ground Arceus for the most part - and both are immune to paralysis (vulnerable to Toxic though).
Klefki is a good mon but A+ seems to be asking for too much IMO. Lack of recovery outside of Leftovers may be to blame on my reason in general - making it more reliable on Wish-passing or Leech Seed if paired with Ferrothorn.
Just my mediocre two cents.
On the contrary Klefki does threaten the majority of sets with Thunder Wave, Toxic, and Play Rough. Spikes also limits Xerneas from switching into play very often as well.
But yeah the only way Xern really gets an upper hand is mono CM with RestTalk or chipping inevitable Klefki switch-ins with Moonblast and / or Focus Blast (Moonblast is sometimes safer just because of the accuracy too). Else...
...but either way I am iffy on Klefki for A+ myself. A lot of S Tier mons can still take some advantage of Klefki or Klefki poses no huge threats to them at all either. ExtremeKiller and MegaMence can at least use Klefki as a possible setup fodder. Mega Sableye hates Play Rough but completely bones 3/4 of Klefki's arsenal. The same with Mega Diance. It also almost gives a free switch-in to PDon and Ground Arceus for the most part - and both are immune to paralysis (vulnerable to Toxic though).
Klefki is a good mon but A+ seems to be asking for too much IMO. Lack of recovery outside of Leftovers may be to blame on my reason in general - making it more reliable on Wish-passing or Leech Seed if paired with Ferrothorn.
Just my mediocre two cents.
Regardless of the Block set, the point is that Klefki is still an okay answer to Xerneas but not the God check that people make it out to be.
Sweep any news on Mega DDTar? Ive been busy myself but I do know that you mentioned testing it. I would call it a Double Dance PDon partner a bit more than GeoXern - it's just GeoXern can work as a partner to Mega DDTar.
Sweep any news on Mega DDTar? Ive been busy myself but I do know that you mentioned testing it. I would call it a Double Dance PDon partner a bit more than GeoXern - it's just GeoXern can work as a partner to Mega DDTar.
I want to nominate
for A+. Actually I found Yveltal a very versatile pokemon, being both offensive and defensive sets reallyy viable. On the offensive set, the Life Orb attacker, the only thing that swicht into are Fairy types, and even GeoXern takes a good damage:
- 252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 126-149 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 1.6% chance to 3HKO
- 252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 191-226 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
thats a damage that a set up sweeper doesn't enjoy, leaving him on the point he can be revenge killed by other GeoXern or EK Arceus. Let's see other calcs on the top tier pokemon
-252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 220-261 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-48 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 212-251 (55.2 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 273-321 (69.4 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So Yveltal can strike a 2HKO on the offensive variants of this mons. Yveltal have troubles against pokemon that outspeed him or Choice Scarf users like Zekrom, so giving a Choice Scarf to Yveltal allow him to KO every pokemon weak to dark type and get a lucky Dark Pulse flinch is always cool.
On the defensive side,the most usefull for me, Yveltal shines as a great EK arceus and Mega Salamence counter. Let's see it:
-+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 263-309 (57.8 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
that means Yveltal can swicht in to Arceus on the turn he set up SD even if rocks are on the field, and then...
-0 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 364-430 (95.2 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
a OHKO if rocks are set up or if Yveltal have Rocky Helmet, wich i have the best item for physical defensive set to punish Groudon, Khangaskan Arceus, and Salamence.
Talking about Mega Salamence:
-+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 339-399 (74.5 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-+1 0 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 292-345 (88.2 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Again Yveltal survives a hit and can OHKO back with rocky helmet or rocks. Also Sucker Punch can pick the KO in cause you don't have neither rocks or rocky helmet.
Roost provide a way to recover HP and Taunt stops things like Ferrothorn, Giratina and in some way mitigate Yveltal weaknes to klefki.
A really vesatile pokemon, who can stop two S rank pokemon, or put very high offensive preassure. Verstaile and usefull enough to be at the same level of MegaGar, Lugia and Ground-Arceus, that's why
is A+ rank IMO.
- 252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 126-149 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 1.6% chance to 3HKO
- 252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 191-226 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
thats a damage that a set up sweeper doesn't enjoy, leaving him on the point he can be revenge killed by other GeoXern or EK Arceus. Let's see other calcs on the top tier pokemon
-252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 220-261 (54.4 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-48 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Primal Kyogre: 212-251 (55.2 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 273-321 (69.4 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So Yveltal can strike a 2HKO on the offensive variants of this mons. Yveltal have troubles against pokemon that outspeed him or Choice Scarf users like Zekrom, so giving a Choice Scarf to Yveltal allow him to KO every pokemon weak to dark type and get a lucky Dark Pulse flinch is always cool.
On the defensive side,the most usefull for me, Yveltal shines as a great EK arceus and Mega Salamence counter. Let's see it:
-+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 263-309 (57.8 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
that means Yveltal can swicht in to Arceus on the turn he set up SD even if rocks are on the field, and then...
-0 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 364-430 (95.2 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
a OHKO if rocks are set up or if Yveltal have Rocky Helmet, wich i have the best item for physical defensive set to punish Groudon, Khangaskan Arceus, and Salamence.
Talking about Mega Salamence:
-+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 339-399 (74.5 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-+1 0 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 292-345 (88.2 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Again Yveltal survives a hit and can OHKO back with rocky helmet or rocks. Also Sucker Punch can pick the KO in cause you don't have neither rocks or rocky helmet.
Roost provide a way to recover HP and Taunt stops things like Ferrothorn, Giratina and in some way mitigate Yveltal weaknes to klefki.
A really vesatile pokemon, who can stop two S rank pokemon, or put very high offensive preassure. Verstaile and usefull enough to be at the same level of MegaGar, Lugia and Ground-Arceus, that's why
Last edited:
I think you sorta overhype Yveltal's versatility. It really only has one decent set, and two others that work only for certain builds. As for the defensive set it's heavily overused and it doesn't really check Mega Salamence at all due to SR weakness + simply not enough raw Def. It checks EKiller that lack Stone Edge, and although you can check EKiller with Stone Edge, this is at the cost of your item slot. With that said, typically other mons can work better as offensive / defensive checks for EKiller as they are able to provide more general utility or role compression. On offensive builds, Yveltal is frequently in competition with Darkrai which is able to much more severely threaten stall, and when considering Yveltal for defensive builds, it's pretty much always better to fit in study mons with more utility like Mega Sab.
The Life Orb set as already stated is decent. It has a way of nailing defensive switch-ins pretty well and can run coverage such as Heat Wave for a particularly annoying Pokemon like say Klefki. There's some overlap with Ho-Oh however, which is able to threaten stall harder and check CM Arc that aren't Rock. There are some other advantages Ho-Oh tends to have over Yveltal, but that's not super important so long as you get the idea that Yveltal is in competition for a slot on pretty much every playstyle. Being Xern bait is annoying if you're trying to use this Pokemon on offense, because it essentially means that you either need to be running multiple offensive checks or have a really beefy P Don in conjunction with something else.
The Scarf set can work with trappers or other exploitative measures, but I haven't used it all that much so I won't say more.
I would say Yveltal is not at all on the same level as Pokemon like Lugia and Darkrai, which play their roles with authority and as a result are frequently used on their corresponding playstyles. Don't see any exemplary reason to give this Pokemon a raise.
The Life Orb set as already stated is decent. It has a way of nailing defensive switch-ins pretty well and can run coverage such as Heat Wave for a particularly annoying Pokemon like say Klefki. There's some overlap with Ho-Oh however, which is able to threaten stall harder and check CM Arc that aren't Rock. There are some other advantages Ho-Oh tends to have over Yveltal, but that's not super important so long as you get the idea that Yveltal is in competition for a slot on pretty much every playstyle. Being Xern bait is annoying if you're trying to use this Pokemon on offense, because it essentially means that you either need to be running multiple offensive checks or have a really beefy P Don in conjunction with something else.
The Scarf set can work with trappers or other exploitative measures, but I haven't used it all that much so I won't say more.
I would say Yveltal is not at all on the same level as Pokemon like Lugia and Darkrai, which play their roles with authority and as a result are frequently used on their corresponding playstyles. Don't see any exemplary reason to give this Pokemon a raise.
Ghostceus for A+ why is this thing only A? it checks a lot of common things in the meta and has so many movesets and destroys a lot of the tier at +2. It checks Ekiller and blocks rapid spin and has refresh and recover to lost longer in the battle.
Would just like to add to this that yes indeed Ghostceus has defensive synergy and offensive power so I don't see why it's not A+.
anyway I'm still waiting for Latias and Kyogre to move to A,,,,, Nayrz
It's ubers open rn and a lot of people are viewing the viability ranking and this for me does not represent the true viability of some pokemon.
updaterino - nothin else worth mentioning atm besides hide from the return of satan - hope you are all enjoying the open!
Update List:
Primal Kyogre: B+ >>> A-
Latias: B+ >>> A-
Mewtwo-X: B+ >>> B
Mega Diancie: B+ >>> A-
Mega Metagross: C+ >>> Unranked
Mega Kangkaskhan: B >>> B+
Ferrothorn: B+ >>> B
Gothitelle (help): Unranked >>> C+
Clefable: B >>> C+
Genesect: C+ >>> C
Groudon: B >>> C+
Smeargle: C >>> C+
Jirachi: C+ >>> B-
see ya!
Update List:
Primal Kyogre: B+ >>> A-
Latias: B+ >>> A-
Mewtwo-X: B+ >>> B
Mega Diancie: B+ >>> A-
Mega Metagross: C+ >>> Unranked
Mega Kangkaskhan: B >>> B+
Ferrothorn: B+ >>> B
Gothitelle (help): Unranked >>> C+
Clefable: B >>> C+
Genesect: C+ >>> C
Groudon: B >>> C+
Smeargle: C >>> C+
Jirachi: C+ >>> B-
see ya!
I'll make a post I guess. I think Gothitelle should be B-. The definition for B rank is:
I also think Clefable in C+ is a bit harsh. Let's compare it to Blissey. Clefable gets both Wish and Heal Bell in same set, while Blissey struggles to fit both, though it theoretically could. Clefable checks Geomancy Xerneas, Blissey is a very soft check at best, though it is better than Clefable for non-Geomancy variants. Both check Calm Mind Arceus, though Blissey needs Snatch. Blissey passes bigger Wishes than Clefable. Arguably, Clefable's typing is more useful? Blissey soft-checks Primal Kyogre, but it also loses to Taunt Yveltal which Clefable beats. The big negative for Clefable is that it is Shadow Tag weak, thus it mandates a Pursuit user on its team. So basically, Clefable can fit more than Blissey, (Wish + Heal Bell + check Geomancy Xerneas and Calm Mind Arceus), but it is Shadow Tag weak. I mean, Shadow Tag is indeed a huge problem. I don't think that looking at these attributes as a whole, there is a gap of two subranks between the two though.
Regarding Ghost Arceus, hm. I actually think A rank as opposed to A+ rank is very appropriate. Offensively, the Swords Dance set is extremely threatening; the Calm Mind set can be pretty solid too. Defensively it checks Extreme Killer Arceus, Latias/Latios, Mewtwo, and a few other less important things. However, I think there is a pretty unfortunate opportunity cost of taking up the Arceus forme slot, but also being less bulky due to needing to run a lot of Speed, thus it struggles with other physical attackers such as Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Salamence. But I definitely see the argument for A+, and comparing it to Ground Arceus can kinda run a few parallels; I think the main thing Ground Arceus has is that it also has a very threatening Swords Dance set offensively, but it's support set is a lot more useful in my opinion because of how well it beats Primal Groudon.
Looking at the first part, I think Gothitelle certainly has "decent" offensive capabilities. Its offensive capabilities are extremely good actually; however, it is matchup reliant. Basically, limited range of what it can trap but it is unmatched in trapping the targets. Combined with Thunder Wave messing with a lot of things, I think its offensive capabilities measure up to "decent". It's certainly chosen for a specific role, as not much else can parallel its abilities to trap things. As for support, Gothitelle is somewhat self sufficient but its teammates do have to cover defensively for Gothitelle. I don't think there's much opportunity cost outside of using up a team slot like every other Pokemon. I wouldn't put it higher than B- though, since I think it does have a number of flaws. The bias towards a physical, somewhat offensive metagame is certainly not ideal. This metagame trend is still a huge reason why Gothitelle is much less successful in ORAS than XY, where balanced/stallier builds were more common. I don't think that Gothitelle is too niche, teammate reliant, and high in opportunity cost to warrant C+ though.
I also think Clefable in C+ is a bit harsh. Let's compare it to Blissey. Clefable gets both Wish and Heal Bell in same set, while Blissey struggles to fit both, though it theoretically could. Clefable checks Geomancy Xerneas, Blissey is a very soft check at best, though it is better than Clefable for non-Geomancy variants. Both check Calm Mind Arceus, though Blissey needs Snatch. Blissey passes bigger Wishes than Clefable. Arguably, Clefable's typing is more useful? Blissey soft-checks Primal Kyogre, but it also loses to Taunt Yveltal which Clefable beats. The big negative for Clefable is that it is Shadow Tag weak, thus it mandates a Pursuit user on its team. So basically, Clefable can fit more than Blissey, (Wish + Heal Bell + check Geomancy Xerneas and Calm Mind Arceus), but it is Shadow Tag weak. I mean, Shadow Tag is indeed a huge problem. I don't think that looking at these attributes as a whole, there is a gap of two subranks between the two though.
Regarding Ghost Arceus, hm. I actually think A rank as opposed to A+ rank is very appropriate. Offensively, the Swords Dance set is extremely threatening; the Calm Mind set can be pretty solid too. Defensively it checks Extreme Killer Arceus, Latias/Latios, Mewtwo, and a few other less important things. However, I think there is a pretty unfortunate opportunity cost of taking up the Arceus forme slot, but also being less bulky due to needing to run a lot of Speed, thus it struggles with other physical attackers such as Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Salamence. But I definitely see the argument for A+, and comparing it to Ground Arceus can kinda run a few parallels; I think the main thing Ground Arceus has is that it also has a very threatening Swords Dance set offensively, but it's support set is a lot more useful in my opinion because of how well it beats Primal Groudon.
Why did Mega Metagross go from C+ to unranked?
because there is literally no reason to use it on any competitive team
(not a reliable SR setter bc ghost arceus / tina-O / etc defog on it easily, not a noteworthy pursuit trapper bc any viable Ubers mon can Pursuit trap Latias pretty easily, and its coverage moves ar enot noteworthy bc they cannot OHKO stuff like Ho-Oh and Primal Groudon while Meta risks being OHKOed in return)
(not a reliable SR setter bc ghost arceus / tina-O / etc defog on it easily, not a noteworthy pursuit trapper bc any viable Ubers mon can Pursuit trap Latias pretty easily, and its coverage moves ar enot noteworthy bc they cannot OHKO stuff like Ho-Oh and Primal Groudon while Meta risks being OHKOed in return)
Mega Blaze is too high at B- imo, what does distinct niche does it have like the others there? It is checked hard by PDon and MegaMence, the former which is on every team so its offensive capabilities are severely held back. I guess you could try HP Ice for Mence but then you give up Knock Off or Stone Edge making you checked by other common things like Ho-oh and Lati@s. And even then HP Ice needs like 6000 EVs to actually guarantee the KO offensive Mence (80 - 200 HP) after Stealth Rock, so you're gonna give up a lot of damage output on its STAB moves. Not to mention it's also outclassed by Mence itself, and gives it free turns which is a massive flaw. I think its rank was just ignored all this time but yeah it should drop to like C imo.
Also Mega Slowbro should be dropped or unranked just like Mega Metagross. Doesn't offer much more than something like Waterceus or a PhysDef Ogre other than Iron Defense as a better check to SD PDon, which it doesn't even do well. On the turn it switches in as PDon SDs, PDon then attacks and does this:
+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 258-304 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Then you're forced to Recover, you can't even Iron Defense since you'll die the next turn anyway. This isn't even factoring Stealth Rock.
I guess it checks Ekiller better though, but on the stall teams it would find itself on, I don't see why the team wouldn't prefer a different mega like Mega Sableye which is almost too good to give up. You can check SD Pdon through Toxic Waterceus and Lugia anyway, and Mega Sableye itself is a good enough check for Ekiller. Sableye also helps wear down a poisoned PDon with Fake Out. Pretty much the notorious trio that is Mega Sab, Waterceus, and Lugia removed any niche Mega Slowbro can offer. So yeah I can't see what this mon can actually offer for a serious team other than cool factor.
Also Mega Slowbro should be dropped or unranked just like Mega Metagross. Doesn't offer much more than something like Waterceus or a PhysDef Ogre other than Iron Defense as a better check to SD PDon, which it doesn't even do well. On the turn it switches in as PDon SDs, PDon then attacks and does this:
+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 258-304 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Then you're forced to Recover, you can't even Iron Defense since you'll die the next turn anyway. This isn't even factoring Stealth Rock.
I guess it checks Ekiller better though, but on the stall teams it would find itself on, I don't see why the team wouldn't prefer a different mega like Mega Sableye which is almost too good to give up. You can check SD Pdon through Toxic Waterceus and Lugia anyway, and Mega Sableye itself is a good enough check for Ekiller. Sableye also helps wear down a poisoned PDon with Fake Out. Pretty much the notorious trio that is Mega Sab, Waterceus, and Lugia removed any niche Mega Slowbro can offer. So yeah I can't see what this mon can actually offer for a serious team other than cool factor.
Last edited:
There are better reasons as to why Mega Blaze is mediocre, but here are the calcs anyways.
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 168-198 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 333-393 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 334-394 (100.9 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mega Salamence: 272-322 (69.2 - 81.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I also disagree with unranking Mega Bro based on the points made when we were discussing its analysis.
It has a very limited amount of defensive utility in this metagame. The one huge thing going for Palkia in XY and past gens was the ability to check Kyogre effectively, however it struggles to check Primal Kyogre effectively due to it's mammoth stats, plus Kyogre just isn't as common anymore. This is a common theme, as CM Arceus formes which it also used to check reasonably well with a SpDef spread are generally rare in this metagame. Add in how being a Dragon checked by Pdon somewhat fucking sucks when most Dragon types used regularly find some of their viability emanating from the fact they can all somewhat check a Pdon variant(Lati@s, Giratina-O, Salamence, Rayquaza, Arceus-Dragon) it can put a lot of pressure on your build without rewarding you offensively enough for it. A lot of the time it's just straight up impossible to justify it over Latios.
Last edited:
Ok quick post in response to some changes and things I feel were left out in the update.
Don't like that Lucario is in B- because it's certainly better than Blaziken and on par with Mewtwo-X offensively, revenge kills Xerneas, Etc etc nothing I haven't said before, needs B at least.
Dc at all about Excadrill anymore despite some users such as Hack and Mr.378 agree that it should be in B; hazard lead sucks as I've said in my last post regarding it, and swords dance + sand is the most consistent set it has and can do a number to stall and balance.
Goth can go into B or even B+ IMO because it practically invalidates stall and bulkier teams that use things like Klefki, Ferrothorn, and supportceus, while it supports some dangerous shit like Ho-Oh and Mega Mence exceptionally well. Obvi not A rank because it's useless vs sample team and can't trap every mon with one set. Best pair is with SR Diancie btw.
Jirachi raise is cool, would like to see some use of it in Open.
Clefable drop is necessary; it has 4mss as I've said before and stall teams have enough security against CM arceus by using Ho-Oh or snatch+toxic Blissey which also helps your team vs kyogre, so justifying it can be difficult.
Did some testing with Mega Metagross and yeah it sucks wouldn't ever use over Scizor or even Mega Mawile. Pursuit has little applications and Rock Slide is way too niche on it, agreeing with unrank.
I warmed my heart a bit to Aegislash so I like where it is and have no strong opinions against it atm.
Seconding Dilwar on Mega Bro unranking for similar reasons he stated, though Hack did say he was working on a build with the mon so I'd like to hear what conclusions he comes to about it before kicking it off the list.
Also Kyurem-W is useless like Reshiram and Palkia please unrank.
E: meant to say D rank Kyu; obvi can't unrank
Don't like that Lucario is in B- because it's certainly better than Blaziken and on par with Mewtwo-X offensively, revenge kills Xerneas, Etc etc nothing I haven't said before, needs B at least.
Dc at all about Excadrill anymore despite some users such as Hack and Mr.378 agree that it should be in B; hazard lead sucks as I've said in my last post regarding it, and swords dance + sand is the most consistent set it has and can do a number to stall and balance.
Goth can go into B or even B+ IMO because it practically invalidates stall and bulkier teams that use things like Klefki, Ferrothorn, and supportceus, while it supports some dangerous shit like Ho-Oh and Mega Mence exceptionally well. Obvi not A rank because it's useless vs sample team and can't trap every mon with one set. Best pair is with SR Diancie btw.
Jirachi raise is cool, would like to see some use of it in Open.
Clefable drop is necessary; it has 4mss as I've said before and stall teams have enough security against CM arceus by using Ho-Oh or snatch+toxic Blissey which also helps your team vs kyogre, so justifying it can be difficult.
Did some testing with Mega Metagross and yeah it sucks wouldn't ever use over Scizor or even Mega Mawile. Pursuit has little applications and Rock Slide is way too niche on it, agreeing with unrank.
I warmed my heart a bit to Aegislash so I like where it is and have no strong opinions against it atm.
Seconding Dilwar on Mega Bro unranking for similar reasons he stated, though Hack did say he was working on a build with the mon so I'd like to hear what conclusions he comes to about it before kicking it off the list.
Also Kyurem-W is useless like Reshiram and Palkia please unrank.
E: meant to say D rank Kyu; obvi can't unrank
Last edited:
Also Kyurem-W is useless like Reshiram and Palkia please unrank.
I'm sorry. How is it useless? I get that it is certainly niche in the sense that it cannot be easily placed on a team, but being able to nuke a majority of the tier is hardly useless on the level of Palkia.
jesus christ can we stop beating the rotting carcass that is kyu-w pls
Kyurem-W is fine where it is IMO because the tier lacks Ice resists that can take it on; Primal Kyogre is obviously not a good answer to Kyurem-W and Ferro / Klefki / etc are slower and get roasted by LO Fusion Flares. Choiced Kyurem-W isn't very good and Kyurem-W needs way too much support to be ranked very highly, but Ice is too strong an offensive typing right now for it to be considered as bad as Palkia etc.
Try LO with Fusion Flare / Draco Meteor / Ice Beam / Stone Edge or Roost, it's not Reshiram-level bad.
Try LO with Fusion Flare / Draco Meteor / Ice Beam / Stone Edge or Roost, it's not Reshiram-level bad.
U have no idea how hard I looked for that while making the Poisonceus rmt
Kyu-W needs to be ranked higher. Are we seriously ranking the likes of Bronzong and Arceus-Dragon in B while this monster is sitting in C+?
Kyu-W has perfect synergy with Primal Groudon, the best pokemon in the tier, as everything that resists ice is completely and utterly fucked by it. P.Don also provides SR and Paralysis support while dealing with Xerneas and Ho-oh who think they can take advantage of a choice-locked Kyu-W.
Kyu-W on the other hand destroys just about everything P.Don hates including but not limited to Groundceus, defensive Yveltal and Lugia.
Chansey, the only pokemon who can attempt to wall it, is unviable as long as Mega Gengar is a thing (another great partner for Kyu-W, by the way, but I'm not emphatizing this as much as P.Don because it's a mega and not nearly as splashable) and Blissey who runs Shed Shell can't take two Focus Blasts so it's not a surefire counter.
Kyu-W also deals with the occasional Sturdy Skarmory and Forretress leads nonsense, is a very viable Sleep Absorber with its Scarf set if it's running Sleep Talk so it can check Darkrai if needed, threatens almost every single hazard setter/defogger/spinner (Ferrothorn, Exca, Tentacruel, Giratina, several Arceus formes, Bronzong, Klefki and more).
If you need a special nuke who can punch holes without worrying about resists (because you can count on one hand the number of viable ice resists in the tier) and who's a lot more versatile than most people give it credit for (both choice sets are viable and so are LO, Sub+3 attacks, SubRoost and surprise resist berries) Kyu-W is your guy. Now people get it out of C+ because it's just painful to look at.
Kyu-W has perfect synergy with Primal Groudon, the best pokemon in the tier, as everything that resists ice is completely and utterly fucked by it. P.Don also provides SR and Paralysis support while dealing with Xerneas and Ho-oh who think they can take advantage of a choice-locked Kyu-W.
Kyu-W on the other hand destroys just about everything P.Don hates including but not limited to Groundceus, defensive Yveltal and Lugia.
Chansey, the only pokemon who can attempt to wall it, is unviable as long as Mega Gengar is a thing (another great partner for Kyu-W, by the way, but I'm not emphatizing this as much as P.Don because it's a mega and not nearly as splashable) and Blissey who runs Shed Shell can't take two Focus Blasts so it's not a surefire counter.
Kyu-W also deals with the occasional Sturdy Skarmory and Forretress leads nonsense, is a very viable Sleep Absorber with its Scarf set if it's running Sleep Talk so it can check Darkrai if needed, threatens almost every single hazard setter/defogger/spinner (Ferrothorn, Exca, Tentacruel, Giratina, several Arceus formes, Bronzong, Klefki and more).
If you need a special nuke who can punch holes without worrying about resists (because you can count on one hand the number of viable ice resists in the tier) and who's a lot more versatile than most people give it credit for (both choice sets are viable and so are LO, Sub+3 attacks, SubRoost and surprise resist berries) Kyu-W is your guy. Now people get it out of C+ because it's just painful to look at.
Bronzong checks double dance don somewhat as well as Xerneas and support Arceus formes and setting rocks so it already has 10000x the defensive utility that Kyu-W could ever hope to have. Arc-Dragon checks support and RP Don, Salamence, Ho-oh and some Ray sets and Defogs, also giving it hugely more defensive utility.
It doesn't really destroy Groundceus except for the very meh Special sets who still hit it hard with Judgment as it comes in, SD sets will smack it around with Stone Edge unless you're Scarf and then you can't even break half of what you want to break.
As said before, you need rocks and to hit 2 focus blasts(49%) to break Blissey, and that's assuming your opp doesn't just like, switch out into one of the many fighting resists in the tier? Basically it's hard to manufacture a realistic situation where it successfully breaks Blissey.
Dealing with Forretress leads is nice but not something I'd move a rank for. Scarf set is terrible as you lose the fundamental and only reason to ever use Kyu-W which is to break balance.
I agree that LO breaks balance well, Specs and Scarf are kinda awful, and this mon just doesn't offer the defensive utilities you need from a team slot in this meta game. Consider Darkrai, it effectively checks anything slower without priority once, pressures all those defoggers, and still manages to remain a huge offensive threat.
It doesn't really destroy Groundceus except for the very meh Special sets who still hit it hard with Judgment as it comes in, SD sets will smack it around with Stone Edge unless you're Scarf and then you can't even break half of what you want to break.
As said before, you need rocks and to hit 2 focus blasts(49%) to break Blissey, and that's assuming your opp doesn't just like, switch out into one of the many fighting resists in the tier? Basically it's hard to manufacture a realistic situation where it successfully breaks Blissey.
Dealing with Forretress leads is nice but not something I'd move a rank for. Scarf set is terrible as you lose the fundamental and only reason to ever use Kyu-W which is to break balance.
I agree that LO breaks balance well, Specs and Scarf are kinda awful, and this mon just doesn't offer the defensive utilities you need from a team slot in this meta game. Consider Darkrai, it effectively checks anything slower without priority once, pressures all those defoggers, and still manages to remain a huge offensive threat.
- Status