ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

[Magermilchpuur]

I know that a lot of this stuff has already been said butI wanted to express my opinion about the posts that Dice and Le Chiffre made.

Arceus-Ground: A

I completly agree with this. Groundceus is an amizing mon. The SD variant has a powerful STAB EQ, good stats, diverse movepool and can threaten a lot of mons that are good in the metagame (Diancie, PDon, Ho-Oh, Klefki, non charti Yveltal, non charti Rayquaza, and so on). The utility variant is less scary to face, but gets its job done and is able to beat the most common rocker.
Even though it has all these really nice traits it also has some huge flaws. E g: If you run Groundceus you need to run a POgre check. The first one that comes to mind is PDon, because it checks POgre and Xerneas, sets up rocks and is just nice overall. At this point you have two Groud-Types. A lot of peopla have argued that PDon isnt a "real Ground-Type". That is true but to a certain degree it still is a Ground-Type and likes to run EQ/Precipice Blades and Stone Edge. I know that PDon can also run Lava Plume or DTail as attacks, but you kinda double up on coverage. Facing competition from E-Killer, Gostceus and Arceus-Water doesn't help either.
From my experience (doesnt mean anything because I am not nearly as good as most people in this thread) it is really hard to build a team with Groundceus, that wouldn't be better with E-Killer/Ghostceus/Arceus-Water. I find it not splashable at all and I think that it should not be A+.

Arceus-Water: A+

Arceus-Water on the other hand is one of the most splashable mons in the metagame. Providing a good utility/glue mon for almost any balance or stall team, it has become a very important part of the metagame. Altough it suffers a bit from the 4MSS (Judgment, Ice Beam, Toxic, Recover, Defog, WoW?) it still is able to do its job consistently without hindering teambuilding as much as Groundceus does.
Also agree with this one.

If I said something that is wrong please tell me so that I can correct it^^

 

[hyw]

Hold on let's not get ahead of ourselves here, Arceus-Water and Arceus-Ground are equal in viability. Forgot about the two attacks and Toxic set in my original post above but really Arceus-Water is great defensively and Arceus-Ground is just short of superb both offensively and defensively; including Arceus-Ghost, of the three, no one form is better than the other two to the point where it warrants a higher ranking.

Also, while we're on the topic of Arceus forms, can we agree that Arceus-Rock should be B+ at most? Its Defog set is abysmal and unsuable due to it losing to the two best Stealth Rockers and it's not a reliable check to Ekiller at all since you have to both win the speed-tie and hit the Will-O-Wisp to avoid getting bopped by a +2 Earthquake. I personally hate he Calm Mind Refresh set, too, since it can't set up on too many things at all. To me, its only redeeming quality seems to be that it can check Salamence, Rayquaza, and Ho-Oh the most reliably of any Arceus form, even more than Arceus-Dragon, which isn't weak to Ground and resists fire. It's also worth noting that Arceus-Rock can bop some other things in this tier with its Rock STAB, too, like Yveltal and Lugia. Also, Thunder Wave Ho-Oh which is becoming more popular has an easier time beating Arceus-Rock with two Life Orb-boosted Earthquakes. In conclusion, since Arceus-Rock is more dependable at checking things Arceus-Dragon can, and due to its ability to run a CM set better than Arceus-Dragon, it should be B+ or B as its flaw in being unable to stay in on Primal Groudon, in addition to a plethora of other common offensive threats.

 

[haxiom]

I agree that Water / Ground / Ghost Arceus should be the same. Water Arceus is the best support Arceus forme, but lacks viable offensive sets. Ground Arceus and Ghost Arceus are both threatening offensively; I'd argue that support Ground Arceus is better than Ghost Arceus, but Ghost Arceus can run Calm Mind and Swords Dance sets which also check Ekiller on offense which is cool. I realize that I'm not really adding much and just agreeing with previously mentioned stuff. Just saying that I support all three being A rank. Regarding Water Arceus A+ vs A that Le Chiffre brought up, I disagree with this. While there is precedent for relatively one-dimensional Pokemon being high ranks, Water Arceus certainly checks a lot of physical attackers and is a reliable Defog user, but it also isn't perfect. Stuff like Thunder Wave / Toxic will annoy it and you'll probably end up wanting a Magic Bounce user, cleric, or other means of dealing with status on your team. Stuff like Thunder Wave Ho-Oh, Swords Dance Primal Groudon, etc. are more common for beating bulkier cores, I just don't think Water Arceus is good enough to get away with being one-dimensional but still make be A+.

Regarding Landorus-T and Mega Tyranitar:
I haven't used them too much, but they're certainly not bad. Landorus-T is a nice scarf user, it's checks stuff with Intimidate, can pivot and keep momentum with U-turn, while being a possible cleaning option, it's seems like a pretty cool Pokemon that I've been looking into messing around with. I like ~B rank for it. As for Mega Tyranitar, it's a good Dragon Dance user and it gets a lot of neat kills and can do stuff defensively (though it can be crippled fulfilling these roles), it also takes the Mega slot. I think it's on par with stuff like Mega Scizor.

 

[Hack]

I disagree they should be the same, more or less I agree with dice. The double ground can be very problematic even if it doesn't look so bad on surface... Having a really hard time actually putting words on why it is so but it always seems like teams with have a hard time filling out the check-list. As for ghost the SD set is kinda cool, and the cm sets can work at times (defog is underwhelming imo) but each of those have big flaws. SD can't really do damage without setting up, and does never have the moveslot to spare for a healing move, making it very prone to getting overwhelmed before it can do actual damage. CM is just never going to sweep a team. It might pressure a few builds but even teams that are techinically weak to it (such as steels old spl team) never seem to actually get fully blown back by it either. For me ghostceus and groundceus are about equal rank, maybe groundceus a bit higher just because it can techincally run toxic+defog+judgment+recover better than most arceus due to its ok match up vs pdon. Still too burn prone to be a good set. Waterceus is clearly better than the two, be it the judgment+ice beam+toxic set which is a great glue on balance, or the defog set, which is an integral part of lugia stall.

 

[dice]

i like ghosteus more since i find it more flexible but wutevz that's too pedantic. i'd put waterceus in a+ and ghosteus > groundeus in a

 

[xRoyUltra]

Has anyone used Hoopa - Unbound in Ubers?

 

[hyw]

Yeah I said in my original post that if I had to rank one higher than the others it'd probably be Arceus-Water and this discussion has cemented my meandering; I think Arceus-Water should go in A+ and Arceus-Ground and -Ghost in A.

Also I would never consider Hoopa for a serious team, there are no redeeming qualities to cover for its terrible speed and defense statistics. Just use Darkrai or Mewtwo or something lol.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Has anyone used Hoopa - Unbound in Ubers?

Tbh its pretty shitty wallbreaker that's 100% countered by arceus-bug, kyurem-w does a pretty nice job, especially when paired with arceus-fighting

 

[hyw]

That post...with THAT username? You nailed it!

 

[MagicShedinja]

Has anyone used Hoopa - Unbound in Ubers?

I Used Hoopa in Antacool's Trick room team, and while it is very strong, it has 4MSS, He's too slow, makin it usabler only in Trick room, and has 0 Physical Bulk. Yveltal is a better Dark-Type Wallbreaker.

 

[squinn]

Hm I need someone to explain me why Zekrom is B rank and with that higher ranked than f.e. Lucario. I'm well aware of its niche and yet I think it's very small and consider Zekrom as a C+ rank. I also think I've never seen it work in a team, not that this means much ^^

 

[Krauersaut]

If you ask me, B is the rank that seperates good from bad, and the mons that divide it from B+ to B- particularly fit in that category. I'd say Zekrom treads the line of "potential for being good" and "'shit'mon", but I wouldn't mind it dropping to B-. However, I don't believe it should go to C - it has a couple sets it can still pull off relatively well, these being Shuca Berry + HC, Shuca Berry + Tailwind and the simple old fashioned Scarf set. The former set is a fantastic PDon lure, whilst the middle checks Megamence and takes advantage of Zekrom's expansive support movepool. The Scarf set definitely took a hit with the rise of PDon and Groundceus in particular, but PDon has a few weaknesses that you can exploit, namely its vulnerability to status and ease with which it can get overwhelmed on a given team. Against HO, Zekrom is a godsend, 2HKO'ing everything and, depending on the set it's running, has the ability to check 2/3 of the mons by itself. I haven't played around with Zekrom too much, but I know Innova had an interesting team concept with Shuca HC Zekrom and CM Refresh Fairyceus (which is much less shit than you think it is, trust me).

tl;dr I think Zekrom should stay B, or maybe drop to B-, but that's really about it. ORAS power shift hurt it badly, yes, but not so badly as to count it out entirely.

 

[squinn]

Yes it certainly has its niche but honestly it's nowhere as splashable as Blissey or Ferrothorn imo. I could also be wrong but I think it requires too much support to be a B rank.But yeah, dropping it to B- as you said might also be correct^^

Suggesting
Zekrom for B-/C+

 

[Minority]

Dropping Zek below B is not at all representative of it's viability. It's significantly better than Mega Luke and actually checks things (Mence / Ho-Oh / P Ogre / pressures P Don) and is a physical attacker that absolutely destroys Lugia and Arc Water. Saying it's not as splashable as Blissey or Ferro isn't a good comparison as they don't fit on the same archetypes; you observe this because you build less offense than stall / balance.

 

[Nayrz]

Point all "WHY IS THIS SO LATE" comments at our friendly moderators! Don't actually do that, IRC is a hard place to find people.

Update List:

Blaziken (and Mega): B- >>> C+
Deoxys-S: A- >>> A
Arceus-Ground: A+ >>> A
Arceus-Water: A >>> A+
Mega Lucario: B- >>> B
Mega Tyranitar: Unranked >>> C+
Landorus-T: Unranked >>> C+
Clefable: C+ >>> B-

 

[Miracolous Ladyba]

Dropping Zek below B is not at all representative of it's viability. It's significantly better than Mega Luke and actually checks things (Mence / Ho-Oh / P Ogre / pressures P Don) and is a physical attacker that absolutely destroys Lugia and Arc Water. Saying it's not as splashable as Blissey or Ferro isn't a good comparison as they don't fit on the same archetypes; you observe this because you build less offense than stall / balance.

Zekrom is certain a good pokemon, with a unique typing, but, can't really pressure Groudon. Groudon with the defensive set can tank easily the outrage of Zekrom and even the dracometeor. Epower is a good option, but then it's not better Kyu-b? No stab, but more speed, more attack and a good ice type with no good resistor. Except steel and fire. And water. All smashed by some good stone edge and fusion bolt. Not the steel, then you should pick the other vers- *get banned for saying Kyurem-w*
I mean, Ho-oh have Earthquake and it's a 2hko ( don't talk about sacred fire ), Mence sometimes runs Eartquake ( if don't, expect some backup ) , Pogre create holes just pressing the stab if you don't have Pdon. So it's not a good check.
Sure, a base 150 is still 150 with a monstrous stab, but need a lot of support to press it easily.
C+ is a good place for him.

 

[haxiom]

Zekrom is certain a good pokemon, with a unique typing, but, can't really pressure Groudon. Groudon with the defensive set can tank easily the outrage of Zekrom and even the dracometeor. Epower is a good option, but then it's not better Kyu-b? No stab, but more speed, more attack and a good ice type with no good resistor. Except steel and fire. And water. All smashed by some good stone edge and fusion bolt. Not the steel, then you should pick the other vers- *get banned for saying Kyurem-w*
I mean, Ho-oh have Earthquake and it's a 2hko ( don't talk about sacred fire ), Mence sometimes runs Eartquake ( if don't, expect some backup ) , Pogre create holes just pressing the stab if you don't have Pdon. So it's not a good check.
Sure, a base 150 is still 150 with a monstrous stab, but need a lot of support to press it easily.
C+ is a good place for him.

Well the Shuca set which is pretty popular does check the mons you mentioned- its important to note that you're not using Zekrom as a defensive switch-in but as an emergency check for offense that also pressures Primal Groudon by weakening it. Like, you don't need to OHKO it to pressure Primal Groudon, since pairing it with something like Xerneas is going to force it to continually switch in and get worn to the point where it is defeated and something can sweep. So yes, Zekrom doesn't beat Primal Groudon, but it applies pressure to it by forcing it in. And Shuca Zekrom does serve as a fine offensive check for the said threats, as its intended to be a one-time check or not even necessarily switch in- you're argument assumes that Zekrom is intended for a defensive role which it isn't.

 

[Miracolous Ladyba]

Well the Shuca set which is pretty popular does check the mons you mentioned- its important to note that you're not using Zekrom as a defensive switch-in but as an emergency check for offense that also pressures Primal Groudon by weakening it. Like, you don't need to OHKO it to pressure Primal Groudon, since pairing it with something like Xerneas is going to force it to continually switch in and get worn to the point where it is defeated and something can sweep. So yes, Zekrom doesn't beat Primal Groudon, but it applies pressure to it by forcing it in. And Shuca Zekrom does serve as a fine offensive check for the said threats, as its intended to be a one-time check or not even necessarily switch in- you're argument assumes that Zekrom is intended for a defensive role which it isn't.

Yep, it's true. ( But to pressure right, you need something behind that can check safely or at least tank some shot by him )
But it's still in C rank description. Zekrom have his flaws and need a lot of support, but just using it with the shuca berry you reduce the offensive power of Zekrom. Then we are back to the previous pages. It's good to have a pokemon be in a certain rank for just a single set when the other are outclassed or need a lot of support? ( The shuca set is like Dialga with the suca. It's a single shot thing, but dialga need it for setting and then spamming some dmeteor. Zekrom without a item is kinda limited, have hard time outspeeding thing, and dealing hard damage. [ Even with the 130 stab of bolt strike and 150 base attack ).
Even tought you're right, I think C+ is good for him.

 

[haxiom]

Well, I don't agree that it fits the C rank description better than it does the B rank.

B Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that have decent offensive or defensive capabilities. B rank Pokemon are typically chosen for their specific roles, but need certain degrees of support and/or suffer from higher opportunity costs.

C Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that serve specific niches in the metagame. C Rank Pokemon can be very reliant on team members for support just to minimize their flaws as well as to function. They may also suffer from large degrees of opportunity cost to the point of being outclassed in some areas.

I think Zekrom does have "decent offensive capabilities". I don't think its "very reliant" on teammates just to minimize flaws and function, but I do think it needs "certain degrees of support". The first thing you mention about needing a Primal Groudon check, this is kinda an irrelevant point in my opinion since every team needs a Primal Groudon check. Finally compare it to some mons in B Rank. It has much less opportunity cost than MMX and Mega Luke, and as much utility at least. So its certainly not C rank in my opinion.

 

[Cheryl.]

I would like to suggest Mega Slowbro be moved down from C+. This thing isn't that good at all, it gets walled by PDon, it's Psychic typing makes it get destroyed by Ghosts and Darks, it's slow as hell, and even though it has godlike defense, it can barely pull off any calm mind sweeps due to the amount of powerful special attackers in Ubers, like Xerneas. It does make for a nice check to Ho-oh and other Fire types not named PDon, though, but that doesn't really make it C+. Drop it to C- imo

 

[Sweep]

Mega Slowbro checks non-SD Primal Groudon with Toxic (which it should always, ALWAYS run), not the other way around. Fire Blast prevents it from giving Ferrothorn and Klefki free switches if you want to run that over Iron Defense (which makes it more secure vs. EKiller and Mence). It also checks all of my fetish Pokemon, like physical Kyogre and Ice Arceus. I recommend keeping it C+.

 

[eren]

Completely agree with keeping Mega Bro at C+. It checks so many threats right now its quite absurd. Also BrandonBeast, if you are running CM Mega Bro, you are completely misusing it. A mega slowbro set in u ers usually consists of: Ice Beam, Toxic, Slack Off, and Iron Defense / Fire Blast. It provides similar defensive coverage as an Arceus-Water, and actually has mpre defense, allowing it to check Mega Salamence quite effectively unlike Waterceus if you are running Iron Defense. While the mega opportunity cost is what prevents this thing from moving MUCH higher in the rankings, its niche is still very worthwhile and should not move down

E: sweep is cool :]

 

[Wings of Night]

Latias should drop to B+ imo. While I think It's more splashable than some other B+ Mons I also think Latios is just better overall. It's a worse check for offensive Primal Groudon simply because +2 stone edge has more than a really solid chance to OHKO without rocks so the extra bulk doesn't even matter at this point and you can't even OHKO it while Latios tanks unboosted stone edge (or is faster if Pdon chooses to SD) and OHKOs Pdon with Draco. Mewtwo 2HKOs both with life orb ice beam anyways so yeah. The only situation I can think of where latias' extra bulk really matters is vs primal kyogre since ice beam doesn't 2HKO support Latias. The extra power Latios offers is really nice though. For example it 3HKOs Klefki with modest psyshock or 2HKOs ttar with grass knot where as Latias can't do shit to both of them. The fact that psyshock doesn't even 2HKO Ho-Oh and Xerneas is also worse for Latias and a big advantage Latios has over Latias. For these reasons I think Latias should drop to B+

 

[hyw]

Two words: Healing Wish. Ergo, your argument has been rendered invalid; where Latias lacks in offensive presence, she makes up with her ability to more solidly check some of the biggest threats in the tier like the two Primals whilst offering perhaps the most clutch form of team support.

 

[♥PokeLuver♥]

Lets be Honest Xerneas is only S tier Because Of Geomancy and Power Herb Although i do enjoy the combo Myself.....If It were fair Xerneas would be B tier But its Not That's why its in Ubers But S Rank is a little High I would Move it too A or A- because it can be shutdown By Any prankster pokemon with Thunder wave