Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

You make it sound like scraggy is a clone of Vigoroth It has more niches then just hitting ghosts.

Vigoroth is terrified of status which heavily damages its capabilities and relies on Taunt. Scraggy However is a status absorber thanks to its ability in Shed Skin and Rest allowing it to support its team by taking Burns/Toxics/T-waves. Also unlike Vigoroth Scraggy has access to stab Drain Punch and while it may not seem like much it allows Scraggy to not waste a turn going for its recovery move unless its 100% required. Lastly Vigoroth is (usually) a bulky late-game sweeper Scraggy is the same but also a great support mon thanks to Knock Off and the previously mentioned rest/skin the combo allows scraggy to take all status conditions and also get rid of eviolites/choice items ect.

Myself and ShuckleDeath have tested this out a lot it definitely deserves a place on the vr

Edit-You say run Night Slash over Return and now Facade? You cant have both options and if you do then your losing on taunt which then actually makes vigoroth lose to scraggy and a few other mons like Klang also Toxic is easily applied and vigoroth is on a forced timer 24/7
 
Last edited:
Ugh fine Megazard

Status is a problem for Vigoroth, but it's basically its only problem, and even then not too many mons actually have an easy way of statusing it (like fast missy and kadabra and rapidash and... scald? most status users are slower than you, and being immune to sleep is a huge deal too). Meanwhile, Scraggy has the issues of worse bulk than Vigoroth (which is huge because the reason Vigoroth is so good is that a lot of common mons like zebra just can't touch it), Flying and Fairy weaknesses that mean it loses to common mons that Vigoroth beats, and lack of Taunt. In for not having a lot of what makes Vigoroth good, you have the ability to deal with tspikes better (or you could just run roselia, which is already a great partner to vigoroth) and the ability to beat the few status mons that beat Vigoroth, which can be dealt with with team support anyway (scraggy loses to a lot more things so it needs more team support), and not really much else. I just don't see what would make me actually want to use Scraggy ever.

Also Machoke isn't going to A+, there's a reason it's the lowest mon in A
 
We havent nommed it for A- have we? No

The nominations for scraggy have always been around C and for good reason we know it doesn't have certain capabilities that Vigoroth has but its not outclassed by it in anyway just focusing on Bulk Up makes it look as such but a majority of its other niches have been talked about and its certainly enough for it to go from unranked to C-/C this is a viability ranking thread and scraggy is certainly a viable pokemon for competitive building despite requiring support (many pokemon do)

Edit-look at all the pokemon in C/C- Scraggy is easily on par/better then the majority.
 
Last edited:
Ok then let's move wailord to C. After all it isn't A, I'm not saying it's good, it's just better than D because I say so.
If you want it to move up, give more concrete arguments. Nothing that's been posted so far has been near convincing and saying "well D isn't that good so it's ok" is a terrible argument. Tentacool has a far more clearly defined niche
 
-Beating Ghost Types
-Having Knock Off
-Beating Probopass (which beats Vigoroth because of flash cannon SpD drops and PP stall)
-Being able to actively switch in on status

This seems like enough niche for me vs Vigoroth. Now can we stop comparing them so much? We know Vigo is a lot better of a mon in general but doesn't mean it does everything better.
 
Ok then let's move wailord to C. After all it isn't A, I'm not saying it's good, it's just better than D because I say so.
If you want it to move up, give more concrete arguments. Nothing that's been posted so far has been near convincing and saying "well D isn't that good so it's ok" is a terrible argument. Tentacool has a far more clearly defined niche

Because ive literally stated most of its niches over Vigoroth and you still believe its not good enough and although it doesnt convince you it is very much enough for it to move

Edit - I ignored the D ranks because Scraggy is better then all of them and is on par with the C ranks viability wise.
 
Last edited:
-Beating Ghost Types
-Having Knock Off
-Beating Probopass (which beats Vigoroth because of flash cannon SpD drops and PP stall)
-Being able to actively switch in on status

This seems like enough niche for me vs Vigoroth. Now can we stop comparing them so much? We know Vigo is a lot better of a mon in general but doesn't mean it does everything better.
-uhh Vigoroth only loses to one common ghost type
-who cares if I'm way worse at what I'm actually supposed to do, I have this one good move
-yes probo beats Vigoroth if you get a bunch of 10% drops... and stunfisk beats nasty plot simipour if it misses hydro pump. don't see how this is relevant.
-why does this make up for how much worse it is in every other way?

these "niches" aren't reasons you'd ever consider using scraggy over vigoroth for on a serious team. this is like saying lickitung has a niche over lickilicky because it's bulkier with eviolite. for something to be ranked, it has to have a concrete niche that makes it worth using over something that's generally better (and even then, if it's too much worse, it still shouldn't be ranked).
 
-uhh Vigoroth only loses to one common ghost type
-who cares if I'm way worse at what I'm actually supposed to do, I have this one good move
-yes probo beats Vigoroth if you get a bunch of 10% drops... and stunfisk beats nasty plot simipour if it misses hydro pump. don't see how this is relevant.
-why does this make up for how much worse it is in every other way?

these "niches" aren't reasons you'd ever consider using scraggy over vigoroth for on a serious team. this is like saying lickitung has a niche over lickilicky because it's bulkier with eviolite. for something to be ranked, it has to have a concrete niche that makes it worth using over something that's generally better (and even then, if it's too much worse, it still shouldn't be ranked).

-For Vigoroth to beat the ghost-types it gets into a PP stalling war which renders it unable to sweep the remainder of the team once the ghost type is out of the way.
-Yes, Knock Off is a very good move. You can use it to wear down pokemons' items early in the match even if you aren't going for a sweep.
-Probo nearly always beats Vigoroth, SpD drops or not. This is because it takes 0 from Return and PP stalls Slack Off while spamming Flash Cannon.
-Switching into status users safely is good ?_?
-Also: another niche. Scraggy is a reliable check to Duosion, while Vigo is not (If Vigo switches in on a +1 Duosion it is forced to Slack Off constantly because +1 Psychic does a lot)

Yes, I think these niches are relevant, and make Scraggy viable over Vigoroth in certain circumstances.
 
oml why is this still going with these same points
-For Vigoroth to beat the ghost-types it gets into a PP stalling war which renders it unable to sweep the remainder of the team once the ghost type is out of the way.
Actually beating missy and geist is just stalling the attacking moves as taunt prevents anything else so not really an issue
-Yes, Knock Off is a very good move. You can use it to wear down pokemons' items early in the match even if you aren't going for a sweep.
Not good enough to justify using scraggy lol. It is cool, but not really relevant enough (wow watchog gets knock etc)
-Probo nearly always beats Vigoroth, SpD drops or not. This is because it takes 0 from Return and PP stalls Slack Off while spamming Flash Cannon.
It has to get lucky with a lot of spdef drops as you just bulk all the way up while using slack off a few times and win at +6. Not a counter
252+ SpA Probopass Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Vigoroth: 76-91 (20.8 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
-Switching into status users safely is good ?_?
Switching into status users is a somewhat cool niche that doesnt justify the use of scraggy. Hell, just guts machoke. And no, doing machoke and vigoroth's work simultaneously isn't a good niche
-Also: another niche. Scraggy is a reliable check to Duosion, while Vigo is not (If Vigo switches in on a +1 Duosion it is forced to Slack Off constantly because +1 Psychic does a lot)
And Vigoroth checks and/or beats Dodrio, Jumpluff, Mightyena, Mr. Mime and Clefairy. And that's just the A rank things that scraggy doesnt.

please move on now or get new points D:
 
I literally just noticed stunfisk is in A- so double posting because what the fuck. It's one of the most splashable mons we have right now, our second most reliable SR user but has several notable things over pilo that make it really easy to see why you'd want to use it instead, most notably it's fucking stupid bulk that makes it live everything. Solid electric switch-in, a fair amount of cool options (Foul Play, Yawn, Protect, Sludge Wave, Pain Split, Passho Berry, I even slapped on endeavor once and it worked nicely, I heard infestation is OK, offensive isn't that awful), nothing wants to touch it because you can get ebola static para'd. Just looking at A- it's pretty clear that Stunfisk is a good deal better than everything except Vigoroth, and honestly its biggest flaws are being a free switch to rose/rotom somewhat if you don't have toxic plus no recovery. I know it's currently the top A-, but it's so splashable right now that I was really taken aback when it wasn't A rank.
 
lickilicky.png
Lickilicky to B+
The main reason stall can function at all in PU, Licky serves as the best cleric we have. It walls a large portion of the meta and has a lot of good support moves (wish, heal bell, knock off, dragon tail).

Gourgeist-XL to A-
This thing has always been really good, with the increase of machoke usage it serves as a better defensive wall than tangela. Even if machoke is guts you can still beat it most of the time with leech seed or even burning it and spam synthesis if necessary.

Tangela to A-
Tangela is pretty bad in the current meta with all the water type spam. People who run stoutland usually have a machoke or something that spams knock off and makes tangela not be able to switch in to stoutland anymore without getting 2hko'd. Not as good as it was in the shell smasher-no poliwrath meta.

Frogadier to B-
A good wall-breaker with a awesome ability which it can use Offensively and Defensively (if evolite) to break down common bulky-offense cores. It also beats most offensive water types 1vs1 if your run evolite. Has access to good moves like tspikes and uturn along with its insane coverage.

252+ SpA Protean Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Monferno to B+
Just a nice splashable fire type that doesn't get rekt by rocks. Can run multiple sets like All-out attacker, Rocks + 3 attacks, Swords dance, Nasty plot and Scarf. The variety of sets make it very dangerous sometimes and it can destroy fat teams with its boosting sets. Lead sets alright too i guess.
 
Frogadier to B-
A good wall-breaker with a awesome ability which it can use Offensively and Defensively (if evolite) to break down common bulky-offense cores. It also beats most offensive water types 1vs1 if your run evolite. Has access to good moves like tspikes and uturn along with its insane coverage.

252+ SpA Protean Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I just don't see the ability to 2HKO Roselia justification in using it over any other Water-type. Frogadier is so slow and is outsped by a lot of Pokemon, and not really powerful enough to be completely a "wallbreaker", even without an Eviolite. And without an Eviolite, it gets beat by even more things. T-spikes is the only move that I believe makes Frogadier even viable.

But here are some nominations:
288.png
Vigoroth from A- to A: I know this got placed in A- not too long ago, but this is a really good Pokemon. Yes, it is weak to status and Knock Off, but that is all it is weak to. And even status can be easily stopped using Taunt making a very limited amount of viable Pokemon are able to Toxic it, or Pokemon with very unorthodox sets like Fast Missy with Toxic. In addition, Vigoroth already has superb Special Bulk that can keep him alive while the weaker Physical side just gets stronger and stronger. And once it starts setting up, it is extremely hard to kill it without a direct counter that can be KOed during the game.

618.png
Stunfisk from A- to A: This is more of me agreeing to what Megazard said. It is a really good Pokemon and just doesn't die. It checks so many things because of the absurd bulk that it has, and people have more coverage for Piloswine (such as F Blast) than Stunfisk, which is nice. I don't think it is better than Piloswine, but not worse. It is just a completely different Pokemon that can run a lot of sets compared to Piloswine's pretty predictable set where the most surprise comes from putting Toxic on it. Also, it doesn't take a ton of damage from every Electric-types's coverage unlike Piloswine which does take quite a large amount from Overheat or F Blast.
252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 133-159 (31.5 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 134-159 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
lickilicky.png
Lickilicky to B+
The main reason stall can function at all in PU, Licky serves as the best cleric we have. It walls a large portion of the meta and has a lot of good support moves (wish, heal bell, knock off, dragon tail).

Frogadier to B-
A good wall-breaker with a awesome ability which it can use Offensively and Defensively (if evolite) to break down common bulky-offense cores. It also beats most offensive water types 1vs1 if your run evolite. Has access to good moves like tspikes and uturn along with its insane coverage.

252+ SpA Protean Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I agree with these two nominations. Lickilicky can be passive sometimes but it does have knock off to offset the strategy of the opposing team (like knocking off choice items, life orbs, eviolites, etc.). It's offensive set isn't that bad, pretty useful sometimes because of it's immense bulk, so it has good times setting up due to that bulk. It can cripple &/or take care of some of the pokemon in S and A rank. Also, since fire types have a tough time with hazards & water types, it's nice that Lickilicky can act as a pivot for them as well as a wish passer (without the baton pass). It can apply some nice pressure on hazard teams too which is very relevant.
Frogadier is a chill pokemon that has nice base 97 speed. This pokemon can give balanced teams some trouble with it's immense coverage. The fact that you can go physical as well is pretty overwhelming too.
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 164-192 (47.6 - 55.8%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Frogadier Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 174-205 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 130-153 (30.6 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Frogadier Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lickilicky: 203-242 (47.8 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
Lairon to C- or D Rank Lairon is simply amazing with decent amount of attack and very good ability that can destroy several head smash things like Pelipper, raichu, simipour, articuno, Regice, Dodrio and Jumpluff one stroke and it is also a good pokemon to put the rocks .

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 302-356 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
(302, 306, 308, 312, 314, 320, 324, 326, 330, 332, 338, 342, 344, 348, 350, 356)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 339-399 (129.8 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(339, 342, 346, 351, 354, 358, 363, 366, 370, 375, 378, 382, 387, 390, 394, 399)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 558-656 (205.9 - 242%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(558, 564, 570, 576, 582, 590, 596, 602, 608, 614, 624, 630, 636, 642, 648, 656)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-F: 392-464 (162.6 - 192.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(392, 398, 402, 408, 410, 416, 422, 426, 432, 434, 440, 444, 450, 452, 458, 464)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 840-988 (254.5 - 299.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(840, 844, 856, 868, 876, 888, 900, 904, 916, 928, 936, 948, 960, 964, 976, 988)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 558-656 (213.7 - 251.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(558, 564, 570, 576, 582, 590, 596, 602, 608, 614, 624, 630, 636, 642, 648, 656)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Roselia: 211-249 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(211, 213, 216, 219, 220, 223, 226, 228, 231, 234, 235, 238, 241, 243, 246, 249)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 336-396 (108 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(336, 340, 343, 348, 351, 355, 360, 363, 367, 372, 375, 379, 384, 387, 391, 396)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Leavanny: 504-594 (172.6 - 203.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(504, 510, 516, 522, 528, 534, 540, 546, 552, 558, 564, 570, 576, 582, 588, 594)

also you have the opportunity to raise the speed with autotomize and can destroy entire teams .
Can you tell us anything new that we wouldnt know by running a couple of calcs? Like why I should use this over Relicanth or Probopass for example. Noms need more to them
 
Lairon to C- or D Rank Lairon is simply amazing with decent amount of attack and very good ability that can destroy several head smash things like Pelipper, raichu, simipour, articuno, Regice, Dodrio and Jumpluff one stroke and it is also a good pokemon to put the rocks .

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 302-356 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
(302, 306, 308, 312, 314, 320, 324, 326, 330, 332, 338, 342, 344, 348, 350, 356)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 339-399 (129.8 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(339, 342, 346, 351, 354, 358, 363, 366, 370, 375, 378, 382, 387, 390, 394, 399)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 558-656 (205.9 - 242%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(558, 564, 570, 576, 582, 590, 596, 602, 608, 614, 624, 630, 636, 642, 648, 656)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-F: 392-464 (162.6 - 192.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(392, 398, 402, 408, 410, 416, 422, 426, 432, 434, 440, 444, 450, 452, 458, 464)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 840-988 (254.5 - 299.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(840, 844, 856, 868, 876, 888, 900, 904, 916, 928, 936, 948, 960, 964, 976, 988)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 558-656 (213.7 - 251.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(558, 564, 570, 576, 582, 590, 596, 602, 608, 614, 624, 630, 636, 642, 648, 656)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Roselia: 211-249 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(211, 213, 216, 219, 220, 223, 226, 228, 231, 234, 235, 238, 241, 243, 246, 249)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 336-396 (108 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(336, 340, 343, 348, 351, 355, 360, 363, 367, 372, 375, 379, 384, 387, 391, 396)

252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Leavanny: 504-594 (172.6 - 203.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(504, 510, 516, 522, 528, 534, 540, 546, 552, 558, 564, 570, 576, 582, 588, 594)

also you have the opportunity to raise the speed with autotomize and can destroy entire teams .
Most of these threats 1HKO you before you can even attack them unless you have sturdy on, which is hard with a tier filled with hazards and no recovery on your Lairon. Some 1HKOs include Focus Blast from Regice, Raichu, and other Focus Blast users. A lot of Pokemon have Ground-type coverage like Earthquake or Drill Run too. Also, Water-types can easily KO you, especially with those offensive EVs.

252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Lairon: 439-517 (135.9 - 160%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Lairon: 400-476 (123.8 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Lickilicky from B+ to A

latest


I agree with the above nominations for Lickilicky to rise, but think that an even more drastic raise is needed.

Lickilicky, simply put, is fantastic in this meta. This is a mon that beats >70% of the metagame 1v1 (just scroll down the VR). When playing a match using Lickilicky, or playing against Lickilicky, it is not uncommon for it to be able to wall 4 out of 6, or even 5 out of 6 mons on a team. Why is this?

First, let’s discuss the capabilities of Lickilicky. We all know Licky is a fantastic special wall. Due to great SpD and HP when in invested, and the combination of wish and protect, it is able to reliably switch into pokemon like Simipour, Kadabra, Zebstrika time and time again. But what we don’t usually discuss when talking about Lickilicky is its very underrated physical walling capabilities. Lickilicky reliably walls pokemon like Mightyena, Piloswine, and Scarf Sawsbuck without ANY investment, and pulls draws with pokemon like Rapidash and Scarf Dodrio, who cannot reliably revenge kill it. Moreover, if it puts just 100 EVs into defense (which I highly recommend), it can wall those two pokemon, as well as avoid the 2HKO all the time from stuff like Band Floatzel and the OHKO from Stoutland’s Superpower.

Let’s go over the best sets of Lickilicky. The first is the simple offense-thrashing set of Wish, Protect, Body Slam, Knock Off. This beats nearly everything that likes attacking in a 1v1 situation. It is also a pain to switch into for every team not having a Machoke, and even Machoke strongly dislikes Knock Off. Even when something can reliably switch into the annoying haxing move that is body slam, it will hate getting its item removed. The combination of these two moves will also prevent Roselia from setting up hazards on it.

Another nice set to run is Wish, Protect, Body Slam, Toxic. Why run Toxic over Knock Off, you may ask? First off, it makes Lickilicky the only reliable Vigoroth counter in the tier, because oblivious makes it immune to Vigoroth’s Taunt. Secondly, toxic is great for protect stalling, and can easily stop a sweeper like nasty plot Ninetales and Misdreavus in their tracks.

(Example Set below)
463.png

Lickilicky @ Leftovers
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Body Slam
- Knock Off/Toxic

The final standard set is Wish, Protect, Knock Off/Body Slam, Heal Bell. This is a set that should really only be run on defensive or stallier teams, as it is very passive. Nevertheless, it is a huge bonus for these teamstyles, as it is by far the best Wish Passer in the tier, and also one of the best Status clearers. (This is very important as few pokemon in PU learn these moves or can use them effectively). The problem is that mono Knock-Off coverage is quite weak and can easily be stalled out of by anything with a recovery move, or used as set-up bait. Body Slam instead can solve this issue, but then you lose to Nasty Plot Misdreavus, a pokemon that is already very hard to cover for defensive teams. However, despite these flaws, it is more or less a defensive staple that can cover threats that other special walls would fold to, such as Offensive Pig.

But of course, it isn’t enough just to say Lickilicky is good for the sake of being good, we have to examine why the metagame is more kind to it than before. So we’ll go over why things have changed for Lickilicky for the better:

First of all, Poliwrath being gone was a huge relief, as well as Pawniard because that set up on Lickilicky. Torterra leaving was also great because that switched in easily and 2HKOed Lickilicky with Wood Hammer. Fast forward a bit and you have the Shell Smashers ban, a big relief because Lickilicky was set-up bait for both of them. Lickilicky also benefits from the high popularity of offensive teams, because its standard sets are an absolute pain for hyper offense both to break through and to switch in. The only real trend that doesn’t benefit Lickilicky are the higher usage of Offensive Monferno and of Machoke.

Now, let’s go over the cons of Lickilicky to see why it shouldn’t necessarily go higher than A, or even A-:
- Free switch-in for Machoke, already one of the scariest mons to cover in the tier, as well as Monferno to some extent
-Fairly easy to set-up hazards on, although it does beat all hazard setters
-Status-weak when not using heal bell, very passive when using heal bell

Now the pros:
-Walls an incredible portion of the tier, including nearly every special attacker
-This includes being one of only 2 counters in the tier to Taunt + 3 Attacks Grumpig
-One of very few pokemon that can reliably use Wish
-Body Slam combined with Knock Off is actually very annoying to switch into
-A special wall that doesn’t just fold to physical attackers except for Machoke and Monferno

Overall, it’s pretty clear to me that Licky is a strong yet flawed pokemon in this metagame and deserving of an A-rank with other centralizing threats like Grumpig and Raichu. And this is without even accounting for its versatility- because sets like Swords Dance and even Curse are indeed good, despite being overshadowed by other normal types, and can lure those expecting a more passive pokemon. Lickilicky is definitely a pokemon I have to take account of during teambuilding, especially because I often find “lol, 4 out of 6 pokemon on my team lose to Lickilicky, and only one of them can switch in”.

also I agree with Stunfisk to A because ebola static is amazing.

And Lairon is bad because it can’t have Sturdy and Rock Head at the same time unfortunately. Without Sturdy it is OHKOed by just about everything, and without Rock Head + Head Smash it is just a weaker physical Probopass.

wow, I can’t believe I wrote all that
 
078.png
Rapidash from A --> A+

Alright, so I'm fully aware that there are those that are gonna oppose this nom, but I firmly believe rapidash is deserving of A+ rank for many reasons, as you will see.
Set
Rapidash @ Charcoal
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Drill Run/ Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun

The first point I'd like to bring up, is that rapidash is one of the hardest hitting revenge killers in the tier. Its speed, at base 105, is phenomenal for revenging stoutland and dodrio (we'll get to that in a second) and its atk, at base 100, in addition to movepool and access to flare blitz makes it one of the most powerful mons we have that doesn't require prior setup. Back to stoutland and dodrio, these mons are huge right now. Stoutland is a beast and a half and every team absolutely needs something faster to deal with it. Dodrio is a little less threatening, as its rock weakness and recoil from brave bird hamper it slightly. Rapidash is one of the only mons that can reliably revenge both. "Reliably" being the key word here, focus blast users (Raichu, Simis), Jumpluff (Sleep powder isn't reliable and acro does ~40% to stout), Zeb (T-bolt does 48-57%), and kadabra (psychic doing 49.1 - 57.8%) either dont do enough to kill most of the time or play with inaccurate moves to revenge. This leaves Specs floatzel, ursaring (provided quick feet is activated), and rapidash as the only mons over base 100 to revenge both sweepers while doing actual significant damage to kill both after a few rocks switch-ins. I picked the top threats of the tier as an example of its capabilities. Dash can OHKO most other fast attackers that it outspeeds with its coverage moves.
252 Atk Charcoal Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 214-253 (68.8 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 220-259 (70.7 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Ursaring Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 286-338 (91.9 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Charcoal Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 262-309 (100.3 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dodrio: 306-360 (117.2 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In summary, Rapidash's revenging ability without prior setup should make it a A+ threat without a doubt.

My final point lies in what makes Rapidash more like an A+ threat than an A threat. Dash has all the qualities of an A+ attacker. It's incredibly fast, it has good coverage, and it isn't hampered by a glaring flaw keeping it at A. With decent defenses, a good ability, recovery, and access to will-o-wisp , rapidash has everything going for it that sets it above traditional A rank mons. It doesn't need setup like regice, doesn't have to rely on a status orb whittling it down like ursaring, and doesn't face same type competition like Raichu (poor defensives and roselia could also be used as an argument here).

Alright, this is the paragraph that addresses rapidash's negatives. A rock weakness and its main stab producing recoil is a major problem. My counter to this is that with will-o and morning sun recovery, some of that damage can be recovered and potential switches can be neutered with a burn, making any damage that it accumulates not a permanent problem. These moves give rapidash options to address its main downside. Another problem is that solrock and vibrava exist. To this, my counter argument comes from team support. No mon is perfect and with proper team building and support, these counters aren't that much of a problem, especially provided that they don't hit incredibly hard and aren't that common. Pairing Dash with a water type with ice beam will pretty much take care of these problems.
 
Recently I have felt like there is no one best pokemon in PU like the VR suggests, rather several which really are above others. Im talking about Roselia, Piloswine, Floatzel, Stoutland and to an extent Dodrio and Zebstrika. Currently im not certain how this should be translated in the VR, but im thinking about expanding S-rank. Yes, although these Pokemon are not incredibly better than others, but I personally believe that they are significantly better than the rest of a+ (who all deserve a+) to the extent that they should be s-rank. Recently the definitions have been removed, which described s-rank as something like 'pokemon that can wall/beat the majority of the metagame and have few downsides', however I never liked it as I never felt like quantifying pokemon like that would accurately show what the ranks should be. Currently I feel s-rank should be for the most influential and meta defining Pokemon in the tier, which I feel all of these pokemon are (imo they are all up to or almost up to roselia standards, which for me has dropped from the significantly best mon to just the best mon as now people are pressurising and preparing for it better - it also only beats 1.5 a+ ranks and 3 a ranks). I could go through each Pokemon, but im sure it will just be the standard stuff you all know how it will be, what is more important to get from this post is how we should 'define' s-rank (ie how centralising and important should the Pokemon there be?). Like I said before, i no longer see roselia as the absolute top, rather with several other mons, and as it is now i would rather have no s-rank (well as it was defined by the (imo bad) old definitions then i feel roselia + floatzel).
Im still not decided on what mons i feel should go there if we make it looser, but that can be discussed here!

FYI if floatzel doesn't move up simipour should move down as floatzel is at least a subrank better as its sets give a lot of competition to LO sets, and scarf (imo the best set) isnt hard to switch in on.

e: for the record i think the order from best to worst is rose/float/stout/dodrio + pilo toether/zebby

078.png
Rapidash from A --> A+

Alright, so I'm fully aware that there are those that are gonna oppose this nom, but I firmly believe rapidash is deserving of A+ rank for many reasons, as you will see.
Set
Rapidash @ Charcoal
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Drill Run/ Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun

The first point I'd like to bring up, is that rapidash is one of the hardest hitting revenge killers in the tier. Its speed, at base 105, is phenomenal for revenging stoutland and dodrio (we'll get to that in a second) and its atk, at base 100, in addition to movepool and access to flare blitz makes it one of the most powerful mons we have that doesn't require prior setup. Back to stoutland and dodrio, these mons are huge right now. Stoutland is a beast and a half and every team absolutely needs something faster to deal with it. Dodrio is a little less threatening, as its rock weakness and recoil from brave bird hamper it slightly. Rapidash is one of the only mons that can reliably revenge both. "Reliably" being the key word here, focus blast users (Raichu, Simis), Jumpluff (Sleep powder isn't reliable and acro does ~40% to stout), Zeb (T-bolt does 48-57%), and kadabra (psychic doing 49.1 - 57.8%) either dont do enough to kill most of the time or play with inaccurate moves to revenge. This leaves Specs floatzel, ursaring (provided quick feet is activated), and rapidash as the only mons over base 100 to revenge both sweepers while doing actual significant damage to kill both after a few rocks switch-ins. I picked the top threats of the tier as an example of its capabilities. Dash can OHKO most other fast attackers that it outspeeds with its coverage moves.
252 Atk Charcoal Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 214-253 (68.8 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 220-259 (70.7 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Ursaring Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 286-338 (91.9 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Charcoal Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 262-309 (100.3 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dodrio: 306-360 (117.2 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In summary, Rapidash's revenging ability without prior setup should make it a A+ threat without a doubt.

My final point lies in what makes Rapidash more like an A+ threat than an A threat. Dash has all the qualities of an A+ attacker. It's incredibly fast, it has good coverage, and it isn't hampered by a glaring flaw keeping it at A. With decent defenses, a good ability, recovery, and access to will-o-wisp , rapidash has everything going for it that sets it above traditional A rank mons. It doesn't need setup like regice, doesn't have to rely on a status orb whittling it down like ursaring, and doesn't face same type competition like Raichu (poor defensives and roselia could also be used as an argument here).

Alright, this is the paragraph that addresses rapidash's negatives. A rock weakness and its main stab producing recoil is a major problem. My counter to this is that with will-o and morning sun recovery, some of that damage can be recovered and potential switches can be neutered with a burn, making any damage that it accumulates not a permanent problem. These moves give rapidash options to address its main downside. Another problem is that solrock and vibrava exist. To this, my counter argument comes from team support. No mon is perfect and with proper team building and support, these counters aren't that much of a problem, especially provided that they don't hit incredibly hard and aren't that common. Pairing Dash with a water type with ice beam will pretty much take care of these problems.
You really overhype how amazing its speed is and how great a revenge killer it is. 105 isnt an ideal speed for a revenge killer considering raichu, jumpluff, floatzel, and zebstrika are all top offensive pokemon at the moment and they outspeed rapidash, and you also majorly overhype how difficult revenge killing stoutland is too, as it will rarely be at full after KOing something (most teams should have a normal resist anyway). Also interestingly enough, plenty of mons which have increased in usage to check dodrio/stoutland also check rapidash, like def relicanth, golem, and solrock. Your paragraph on its negatives don't really go deep into its negatives. Stealth Rock weakness is huge in this metagame as we lack enough reliable hazard control, and morning sun definitely does not make up for this. Combine rocks with flare blitz damage and you are severely crippled just by revenge killing something (if u are RKing you arent recovering). Also another major problem is the abundance of water types, with floatzel and choice scarf simipour being able to RK, and bulkier ones like relicanth walling it/setting up on it.
 
Last edited:
Recently I have felt like there is no one best pokemon in PU like the VR suggests, rather several which really are above others. Im talking about Roselia, Piloswine, Floatzel, Stoutland and to an extent Dodrio and Zebstrika. Currently im not certain how this should be translated in the VR, but im thinking about expanding S-rank. Yes, although these Pokemon are not incredibly better than others, but I personally believe that they are significantly better than the rest of a+ (who all deserve a+) to the extent that they should be s-rank. Recently the definitions have been removed, which described s-rank as something like 'pokemon that can wall/beat the majority of the metagame and have few downsides', however I never liked it as I never felt like quantifying pokemon like that would accurately show what the ranks should be. Currently I feel s-rank should be for the most influential and meta defining Pokemon in the tier, which I feel all of these pokemon are (imo they are all up to or almost up to roselia standards, which for me has dropped from the significantly best mon to just the best mon as now people are pressurising and preparing for it better - it also only beats 1.5 a+ ranks and 3 a ranks). I could go through each Pokemon, but im sure it will just be the standard stuff you all know how it will be, what is more important to get from this post is how we should 'define' s-rank (ie how centralising and important should the Pokemon there be?). Like I said before, i no longer see roselia as the absolute top, rather with several other mons, and as it is now i would rather have no s-rank (well as it was defined by the (imo bad) old definitions then i feel roselia + floatzel).
Im still not decided on what mons i feel should go there if we make it looser, but that can be discussed here!

FYI if floatzel doesn't move up simipour should move down as floatzel is at least a subrank better as its sets give a lot of competition to LO sets, and scarf (imo the best set) isnt hard to switch in on.

e: for the record i think the order from best to worst is rose/float/stout/dodrio + pilo toether/zebby


You really overhype how amazing its speed is and how great a revenge killer it is. 105 isnt an ideal speed for a revenge killer considering raichu, jumpluff, floatzel, and zebstrika are all top offensive pokemon at the moment and they outspeed rapidash, and you also majorly overhype how difficult revenge killing stoutland is too, as it will rarely be at full after KOing something (most teams should have a normal resist anyway). Also interestingly enough, plenty of mons which have increased in usage to check dodrio/stoutland also check rapidash, like def relicanth, golem, and solrock. Your paragraph on its negatives don't really go deep into its negatives. Stealth Rock weakness is huge in this metagame as we lack enough reliable hazard control, and morning sun definitely does not make up for this. Combine rocks with flare blitz damage and you are severely crippled just by revenge killing something (if u are RKing you arent recovering). Also another major problem is the abundance of water types, with floatzel and choice scarf simipour being able to RK, and bulkier ones like relicanth walling it/setting up on it.
May edit this post to be more important, but I just want to say that I really agree with the S-rank and Rapidash comments. Rapidash has a good speed tier, but not for a revenge killer. With the S-rank it really should be both how good the Pokemon is but also how important or centralizing it is. One example is Garbador. I am not saying it wasn't extremely good or limit broken, but its main issue was how overcentralizing it was in a game and teambuilding.
 
Well I want to make a proposal about Ranking descriptions:

S Rank: Pokémon that are extremely centralizing and common in the meta, without being unhealthy or non manageable through decent team building. Pokémon in this category easily do their respective jobs needing little or no support from their team mates, because they have some or all of this characteristics:
* Unpredictability
* Nice Stats
* Good Typing
* Good movepool according with their Stats

Examples: Piloswine (it is slow but thanks to eviolite + bulk + decent typing getting better by Thick Fat can make ir set SR with ease also having nice offensive presence) Roselia (Similar to Pilo but with spikes, having the option of being defensive or offensive), Stoutland (While is pretty predictable, it can do its job REALLY WELL on almost any team, making it really splashable) Floatzel (Versatile, Fast and strong, capable of absorbing burns or destroying rain teams)

A Rank: Pokémon that are relatively common and dangerous on the PU meta, but not as the group of S Rank Pokémon. They can also perform well without much support from team mates but need to be played with more strategy than an S Rank Pokémon. This category may also have some really good pokémon that have a little bit of opportunity cost thanks to sharing some niches or typing with S Rank pokés. While isn't a bad idea taking them into account for teambuilding, isn't as imperative as managing S Rank pokés.

Examples: Misdreavus (Really good and versatile but Knock Off really cripples it because of being weak to it), Kadabra (Fast and strong but really prone to priority and with non existent bulk), Rapidash (Fast and strong but with a not so hot weakness to SR), Simipour (nice and versatile poké, but slightly worst than Floatzel which gives it some opportunity cost), Machoke (strong and bulky but without the good defensive typing and support options of Piloswine)

B Rank: Pokémon that aren't exactly common but they still have the strenght to do well on the meta with some support. They aren't hard to handle with common teambuilding but have some tricks that make them dangerous after a few free turns. However a decent team should have one or two hard checks or counters without even considering them for teambuilding. Finally this pokés usually have opportunity cost over some pokés on S or A ranks that are usually stronger without setup but weaker after a proper setup.

Examples: Duosion (it really needs to avoid Knock Off and have a few turns to get some Calm Minds before being really dangerous), Linoone (it ABSOLUTELY NEEDS a free turn to prepare for a Belly Drum, it has to come after screens or memento on a slow poké and still have some checks like Tangela or Probopass, also even if after a Belly Drum is stronger than Stoutland, Stout is stronger and faster initially since Linoone doesn't usually invest a lot on speed thanks to STAB Extreme Speed), Huntail (both Simipour and Floatzel are faster/stronger without setup, but after a Shell Smash, Huntail can be more threatening than both of them), Fraxure (it is slow and not so bulky, but after one or two DD it's actually pretty threatening due to nice extra moves on Low Kick, Poison Jab, Iron Tail and Taunt).

C Rank: Pokémon that aren't really influential on PU metagame but sometimes have some valuable niches on certain teams that could justify their uses. This group of Pokemon not only needs a lot of support from team mates, but are also predictable and easy to handle by at least half of a well thought enemy team. This rank usually makes people think that they could do really well if they had an extra move, or a certain higher stat.

Examples: Leavanny (it does have Sticky Web, and not so bad stats, but it is easily handled by Dodrio, Piloswine, Roselia, Simisear, Rapidash, and even Zebstrika, without being really versatile and having opportunity cost against Tangela and Roselia as Grass types), Butterfree (it does have a nice boosting move and ability to make Bug Buzz good enough for a mono attacking set, but having next to none physical bulk, being weak to SR, and being really slow with a not so hot defensive typing, makes setupping with Butterfree harder than it seems), Scraggy (While it does have decent defensive prowess thanks to a good typing and defenses bolstered by eviolite, Scraggy still needs a huge ton of support to not be worn down easily by hazards and to set up at least 2 or 3 turns to be kinda effective)

D Rank: Rank just for pokes that are absolutely outclassed at what they do, with huge opportunity cost or that need huge support to just do one or two jobs for the team. Also a nice Rank to select pokés for a fun team.

Examples: Pikachu (Hell yeah, its really strong, but its coverage isn't exactly stellar and its bulk is painful... Also base 90 speed is nothing to be proud of for an offensive poké), Masquerain (Intimidate + Scald burn rate could sound nice if were not for absolutley hideous stats and defensive typing), Dusclops (While is really bulky, its also prone to a huge bunch of things like hazards, Knock Off and Status, being easily setup fodder for a lot of pokés and having almost zero offensive presence)

E Rank: Group of pokés without any logic viability on PU that are still in the tier by usage.

Of course, those definitions still could have some help, but I really belive that building a really solid ranking definitions will help a new player to truly understand why they should be using Roselia or Tangela instead of Maractus, or Fraxure instead of Tropius...

See ya!
 
Last edited:
Well I want to make a proposal about Ranking descriptions:

S Rank: Pokémon that are extremely centralizing and common in the meta, without being unhealthy or non manageable through decent team building. Pokémon in this category easily do their respective jobs needing little or no support from their team mates, because they have some or all of this characteristics:
* Unpredictability
* Nice Stats
* Good Typing
* Good movepool according with their Stats

Examples: Piloswine (it is slow but thanks to eviolite + bulk + decent typing getting better by Thick Fat can make ir set SR with ease also having nice offensive presence) Roselia (Similar to Pilo but with spikes, having the option of being defensive or offensive), Stoutland (While is pretty predictable, it can do its job REALLY WELL on almost any team, making it really splashable) Floatzel (Versatile, Fast and strong, capable of absorbing burns or destroying rain teams)

A Rank: Pokémon that are relatively common and dangerous on the PU meta, but not as the group of S Rank Pokémon. They can also perform well without much support from team mates but need to be played with more strategy than an S Rank Pokémon. This category may also have some really good pokémon that have a little bit of opportunity cost thanks to sharing some niches or typing with S Rank pokés. While isn't a bad idea taking them into account for teambuilding, isn't as imperative as managing S Rank pokés.

Examples: Misdreavus (Really good and versatile but Knock Off really cripples it because of being weak to it), Kadabra (Fast and strong but really prone to priority and with non existent bulk), Rapidash (Fast and strong but with a not so hot weakness to SR), Simipour (nice and versatile poké, but slightly worst than Floatzel which gives it some opportunity cost), Machoke (strong and bulky but without the good defensive typing and support options of Piloswine)

B Rank: Pokémon that aren't exactly common but they still have the strenght to do well on the meta with some support. They aren't hard to handle with common teambuilding but have some tricks that make them dangerous after a few free turns. However a decent team should have one or two hard checks or counters without even considering them for teambuilding. Finally this pokés usually have opportunity cost over some pokés on S or A ranks that are usually stronger without setup but weaker after a proper setup.

Examples: Duosion (it really needs to avoid Knock Off and have a few turns to get some Calm Minds before being really dangerous), Linoone (it ABSOLUTELY NEEDS a free turn to prepare for a Belly Drum, it has to come after screens or memento on a slow poké and still have some checks like Tangela or Probopass), Huntail (both Simipour and Floatzel are faster/stronger without setup, but after a Shell Smash, Huntail can be more threatening than both of them), Fraxure (it is slow and not so bulky, but after one or two DD it's actually pretty threatening due to nice extra moves on Low Kick, Poison Jab, Iron Tail and Taunt).

C Rank: Pokémon that aren't really influential on PU metagame but sometimes have some valuable niches on certain teams that could justify their uses. This group of Pokemon not only needs a lot of support from team mates, but are also predictable and easy to handle by at least half of a well thought enemy team. This rank usually makes people think that they could do really well if they had an extra move, or a certain higher stat.

Examples: Leavanny (it does have Sticky Web, and not so bad stats, but it is easily handled by Dodrio, Piloswine, Roselia, Simisear, Rapidash, and even Zebstrika, without being really versatile and having opportunity cost against Tangela and Roselia as Grass types), Butterfree (it does have a nice boosting move and ability to make Bug Buzz good enough for a mono attacking set, but having next to none physical bulk, being weak to SR, and being really slow with a not so hot defensive typing, makes setupping with Butterfree harder than it seems), Scraggy (While it does have decent defensive prowess thanks to a good typing and defenses bolstered by eviolite, Scraggy still needs a huge ton of support to not be worn down easily by hazards and to set up at least 2 or 3 turns to be kinda effective)

D Rank: Rank just for pokes that are absolutely outclassed at what they do, with huge opportunity cost or that need huge support to just do one or two jobs for the team. Also a nice Rank to select pokés for a fun team.

Examples: Pikachu (Hell yeah, its really strong, but its coverage isn't exactly stellar and its bulk is painful... Also base 90 speed is nothing to be proud of for an offensive poké), Masquerain (Intimidate + Scald burn rate could sound nice if were not for absolutley hideous stats and defensive typing), Dusclops (While is really bulky, its also prone to a huge bunch of things like hazards, Knock Off and Status, being easily setup fodder for a lot of pokés and having almost zero offensive presence)

E Rank: Group of pokés without any logic viability on PU that are still in the tier by usage.

Of course, those definitions still could have some help, but I really belive that building a really solid ranking definitions will help a new player to truly understand why they should be using Roselia or Tangela instead of Maractus, or Fraxure instead of Tropius...

See ya!
I understand that you put a lot of work into these descriptions, however I dont think it is worth using descriptions at all. Simply, you cant describe a Pokemons viability in a tier objectively talking about base stats, typing, etc. Viability is very dependant on the metagame at the current moment, so pokemons specific traits are relevant but how they affect the pokemons effectiveness in the metagame is. However it is very hard to define the ranks based on this without just saying blatant things like 'S-rank is for the most centralising and effective Pokemon', which pretty much explains nothing that isn't already obvious. We removed them for these reasons so I dont see any reason to put them back.

Personally I feel in most cases, the ranks are defined by the the Pokemon themselves, so you can judge whether a pokemon should be in x-rank depending on how it compares to others in that rank (as well as in the rank above or below depending on if it should rise or fall). However S-rank is a lot difficult to judge as it is a lot smaller than others (as it should be), and there are definitely Pokemon in a+ that are better than others in the same rank, but it is very hard to justify if they should rise or not judging their ability to perform compared to the best pokemon in the tier. Rank definitions are also useless in this situation as anything in a+ can 'wall/beat large amounts of the tier' and are 'centralising and defining' (not to mention the vagueness of 'majority', 'a lot', etc). Overall I feel like we need to decide how restrictive s-rank should be, as at the momentum Roselia is definitely better than floatzel/stoutland/etc, but not too much better.

There are also problems with your definitions (mostly d-rank, as fun has no correlation to viability), and more so with your examples (like listing scraggy as c-rank)
 
Last edited:
I understand that you put a lot of work into these descriptions, however I dont think it is worth using descriptions at all. Simply, you cant describe a Pokemons viability in a tier objectively talking about base stats, typing, etc. Viability is very dependant on the metagame at the current moment, so pokemons specific traits are relevant but how they affect the pokemons effectiveness in the metagame is. However it is very hard to define the ranks based on this without just saying blatant things like 'S-rank is for the most centralising and effective Pokemon', which pretty much explains nothing that isn't already obvious. We removed them for these reasons so I dont see any reason to put them back.

Personally I feel in most cases, the ranks are defined by the the Pokemon themselves, so you can judge whether a pokemon should be in x-rank depending on how it compares to others in that rank (as well as in the rank above or below depending on if it should rise or fall). However S-rank is a lot difficult to judge as it is a lot smaller than others (as it should be), and there are definitely Pokemon in a+ that are better than others in the same rank, but it is very hard to justify if they should rise or not judging their ability to perform compared to the best pokemon in the tier. Rank definitions are also useless in this situation as anything in a+ can 'wall/beat large amounts of the tier' and are 'centralising and defining' (not to mention the vagueness of 'majority', 'a lot', etc). Overall I feel like we need to decide how restrictive s-rank should be, as at the momentum Roselia is definitely better than floatzel/stoutland/etc, but not too much better.

There are also problems with your definitions (mostly d-rank, as fun has no correlation to viability), and more so with your examples (like listing scraggy as c-rank)
This kind of reminds me of what someone said in NU, that viability has a different meaning than what you say it is, go look it up. Saying Scraggy is C rank isn't that far-fetched because Scraggy IS viable, it's just outclassed & being outclassed doesn't really have anything to do with viability. Scraggy can put in work, I've seen people use it well. So, why shouldn't it be C rank? Because it's outclassed by Vigoroth as a bulk up sweeper. And I think trc has a point.
just abolish the descriptions and make everything comparative
I like how the ranking list is right now though, not complaining lol
 
Please use examples other than scraggy in your arguments. A lot of people have posted here in support but the unanimous consensus of the council was to not rank it because it isn't any good. If we could get some more clear examples that aren't interpreted in two opposite ways, that would be nice.

As far as the ranks, I don't see any need for a radical change outside of simply adding more S ranks. It would make S rank worse as a whole if we added, say, float and pilo, but it would still be the top rank and I don't see the issue with that. I'd like to see Floatzel in S, I think it's worth the bump up either way, but where did "add weird rank descriptions" come from
 
Back
Top