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Project OU Theorymon

I really like Jellicent, but i think Gourgeist deserves the buff, flavour and competitive-wise. I REALLY dislike Normal/Dark dog. Its not that good a sand sweeper, (takes sand damage) and couple that up with LO and Hazards, its not gonna last long. And don't even get me started on its fraility. Sure, a resistance to shadow ball and knock off is cool. Too bad you can't switch in on sed Shadow Ball user (F.Blast, Sludge Wave) and is infact checked if not under sand. Knock off users are worse, as one, many have secondary STAB or coverage to hit incredibly hard (Bisharp, Weavile), it can't harm said knock off user (Scizor) and it generally hates losing its item. So... not feeling it.

Houndoom is generally the most obsure and interesting sub in this slate. But I have one prob. Why Rattled? The shadow ball checker is nice, but this ability requires switchin skill. Weak to ALL hazards, (where spikes are a legit thing now) having horrid bulk AND a balls ass defensive typing plus Mega slot competition makes it hard to see this through. Plus Sun is viable now, and that would rob it of one of its finest wallbreakers (its not like it has substancial bulk to set up). If u gave a better ability (like Competitive to fuck with intimidate, Weak Armour makes sense flavour-wise, Mummy looks like it could go with the haunted vibe, Drought cuz sun, even PRANKSTER would be cool) maybe I would prefer it over another weakness ridding buff. But honestly, its the best option.

Edit: Sry. I take back the sand sweeper comment + LO. But my other points are still true.

About Cerebus. I don't think it has the bulk to suffice properly abusing this ability. And don't say Hazards are easy to remove. With (2) new Defiant abusers and a meh Competitive user, defog lost its coolness. Ghosts are a bit more common than before, so spinblocking is abit easier than b4. One must generally state that at least one layer of spikes and/or SR is up. So check those calcs.
 
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G-Luke said:
I REALLY dislike Normal/Dark dog. Its not that good a sand sweeper, (takes sand damage) and couple that up with LO and Hazards, its not gonna last long.
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Sand Rush prevents Sand damage.

Edit: Anyway Normal/Dark Stoutland is nth short of amazing. Resistance to Dark and immunity to Psychic are very handy esp when sand normally has nth on +2 Bisharp. A doubled weakness to Fighting is really nothing as any Fighting move would KO it either way. Dark + Normal is a very neat set of STAB which has excellent neutral coverage, which kind of solves Stoutland's biggest weakness of having to use Superpower to break any Steel/Rock, and forcing itself to switch; now it can KO them with 2 Crunch. It complements Excadril by breaking stuff like Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Mew, and can pull off powerful Facade shenanigans to deal with WoW users which usually trouble Excadril tons.

Edit2: Funny how both times when Volt Absorb Jellicent were brought up Dark/Ghost types are at their prime. Last time was the age of Aegislash, and not its Dark spam.
 
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G-Luke said:
I really like Jellicent, but i think Gourgeist deserves the buff, flavour and competitive-wise. I REALLY dislike Normal/Dark dog. Its not that good a sand sweeper, (takes sand damage) and couple that up with LO and Hazards, its not gonna last long. And don't even get me started on its fraility. Sure, a resistance to shadow ball and knock off is cool. Too bad you can't switch in on sed Shadow Ball user (F.Blast, Sludge Wave) and is infact checked if not under sand. Knock off users are worse, as one, many have secondary STAB or coverage to hit incredibly hard (Bisharp, Weavile), it can't harm said knock off user (Scizor) and it generally hates losing its item. So... not feeling it.

Houndoom is generally the most obsure and interesting sub in this slate. But I have one prob. Why Rattled? The shadow ball checker is nice, but this ability requires switchin skill. Weak to ALL hazards, (where spikes are a legit thing now) having horrid bulk AND a balls ass defensive typing plus Mega slot competition makes it hard to see this through. Plus Sun is viable now, and that would rob it of one of its finest wallbreakers (its not like it has substancial bulk to set up). If u gave a better ability (like Competitive to fuck with intimidate, Weak Armour makes sense flavour-wise, Mummy looks like it could go with the haunted vibe, Drought cuz sun, even PRANKSTER would be cool) maybe I would prefer it over another weakness ridding buff. But honestly, its the best option.
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Hey man, just a few comments:

Stoutland won't take damage from Sandstorm because of Sand Rush, and it's bulk isn't that bad:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 130-154 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

That's pretty much the most powerful non-special effective priority its facing apart from Band Sciz, which isn't that popular right now.

I think the Dog's amazing to be honest, but I reckon that Band is a waste - just stick life orb on it and go to town with a 4 attacks set. Ferrothorn is liquidated with Crunch + Superpower, and even Hippo's forced to recover after a return. A simple set of Return/Crunch/Superpower/(Pursuit/Fire Fang) deals with almost everything apart from Fat Hippo, Skarm, and seriously fat Mega Sciz (if no Fire Fang).

It's never going to switch into anything anyway - its a premier revenge killer, that's gonna punish free switches. It also doesn't get arseholed by Bisharp, due to the Sucker Punch resist, a handy trait for a Sand team.

Jellicent is just the absolute boss, spin blocker par excellance. But........defog exists, right? Yeah, but with all the spikes-stacking going on (and lack of bulky ghosts aside from Sableye) Rapid Spinning is coming back into fashion, hence the rise of Starmie and the prominence of Exca. Jelly just says a big FU to the both of them, as it's now able to run a Phys-def spread and block them both, while still sticking the proverbial fingers up at the electrics in the tier.

I like Doom, and I'm happy to see Rattled to good use. You're right, Mummy would have been nice or Weak Armor (but then it gets weaker to priority, and its phys bulk isnt the greatest anyway), but I think Rattled balances it nicely. Sun still isn't viable in OU, though it's a good point to make in the metagame thread I linked to the other day.

I anything to say about Gourgheist that hasn't been said already, though I'd quite like to see discussion about which form would make the best use of the buffs. Though I'm thinking mainly the Flash Fire buff, 'cos I've just done a pretty damning calc:

0- SpA Gourgeist-Small Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 84-100 (23.8 - 28.4%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

EDIT: Damn ninjas. That took me sooooo long to type out!
 
G-Luke said:
I really like Jellicent, but i think Gourgeist deserves the buff, flavour and competitive-wise. I REALLY dislike Normal/Dark dog. Its not that good a sand sweeper, (takes sand damage) and couple that up with LO and Hazards, its not gonna last long. And don't even get me started on its fraility. Sure, a resistance to shadow ball and knock off is cool. Too bad you can't switch in on sed Shadow Ball user (F.Blast, Sludge Wave) and is infact checked if not under sand. Knock off users are worse, as one, many have secondary STAB or coverage to hit incredibly hard (Bisharp, Weavile), it can't harm said knock off user (Scizor) and it generally hates losing its item. So... not feeling it.

Houndoom is generally the most obsure and interesting sub in this slate. But I have one prob. Why Rattled? The shadow ball checker is nice, but this ability requires switchin skill. Weak to ALL hazards, (where spikes are a legit thing now) having horrid bulk AND a balls ass defensive typing plus Mega slot competition makes it hard to see this through. Plus Sun is viable now, and that would rob it of one of its finest wallbreakers (its not like it has substancial bulk to set up). If u gave a better ability (like Competitive to fuck with intimidate, Weak Armour makes sense flavour-wise, Mummy looks like it could go with the haunted vibe, Drought cuz sun, even PRANKSTER would be cool) maybe I would prefer it over another weakness ridding buff. But honestly, its the best option.
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"During a sandstorm, the Speed stat of Pokémon with this Ability is doubled. A Pokémon with this Ability will take no damage from the sandstorm if it otherwise would."

Copy-pasted from Bulbapedia.


Also, sun isn't viable in OU. If you want to talk about sun's legitimacy in Theorymon, you should post in the Theorymon metagame thread instead of here.


One more thing: once you get rid of entry hazards, MegaDoom won't be taking much from common Knock Off users:

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 40 HP / 8 Def Mega Houndoom: 73-86 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- 98.3% chance to 4HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 40 HP / 8 Def Mega Houndoom: 70-83 (23.2 - 27.5%) -- 73.8% chance to 4HKO

0- Atk Tornadus-T Knock Off vs. 40 HP / 8 Def Mega Houndoom: 23-27 (7.6 - 8.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever (probably not the best exemple, but still...)

+2 44 Atk Scizor Knock Off vs. 40 HP / 8 Def Mega Houndoom: 65-77 (21.5 - 25.5%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO


Anyway, I'm going to stop here since I've been double ninja'd lol.
 
GnralLao said:
Anyway, I'm going to stop here since I've been double ninja'd lol.
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Lol ;) We slow ninjas can still ninja like the second best of them!

As the fourth slot on Dark Sand Dog is so flexible, you can even run Facade (if you're ballsy, instead of Return/Superpower:

252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 203-239 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 199-235 (65.6 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 290-343 (71.7 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Obviously you then take the burn Damage, but it's still an option to bear in mind.

It even has Play Rough:

252+ Atk Life Orb Stoutland Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye: 276-325 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Lush.
 
Oh and to add, Mega Doom still can't switch in on anything else except Knock off, allowing easy prediction and killing.

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 40 HP / 8 Def Mega Houndoom: 204-241 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 40 HP / 8 Def Mega Houndoom: 90-105 (29.9 - 34.8%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Dies after Knock Off + Hazards.

216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

0- Atk Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 40 HP /8 Def Mega Houndoom: 170-200 (56.4 -66.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

160 SpA Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 238-280 (79 -93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So its not all cheese and crackers. Its like Motor Drive Electrivire in DPP. Amazing on paper, but horrid in practice.
Again apologizing for dissing the Normo/Dark dog.
 
To say that Houndoom will only be switching on SR + Spikes and thus dies before it accomplishes anything is doing a disservice. The premier Spikes users in OU are Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Klefki, the first two Houndoom would love to switch into before they start setting up hazards, and even Klefki gets hit super-effectively by Fire Blast, even if the dog doesn't want to switch directly into it. The fact that it has trouble switching in was something Mega Houndoom has always had, but Moonblast allows it to damage a wider range of Pokemon than it would with only its STABs. Mega Houndoom would love to have Substitute / Nasty Plot / Will-o-Wisp / Fire Blast / Dark Pulse / Moonblast, but that could be used to the player's advantage as Mega Houndoom can be used to lure Fighting types for another Dark type to come in and clean up afterwards.

DPP Electivire's problem was that even with the speed, it couldn't kill anything because its coverage moves were pitifully weak, not to mention that 95 base speed without the Motor Drive boost is too low for an offensive Pokemon. Mega Houndoom has 115 Spe, which already makes it more useful, but it should require temperance in that it's most useful when combining its utility (Taunt or Will-o-Wisp) with its new ability to check Dark-type Pokemon. Since it is a Mega, it would only occupy a few specific team niches, but the changes are definitely a step up from what it was before.
 
Oh well, I see what you are saying . I still think Gourgeist with Flash Fire is the best sub on the slate
 
I'm just so confused as to why people don't see the benefit of putting Rattled on regular Houndoom. Like yea Flash Fire is cool but Rattled would be better and would solve the switch problem pretty well.
 
I really like the Gourgeist with Flash Fire submission as well, it's just that since those benefits are more obvious, there isn't much I feel I need to say about it.

aceguy123 said:
I'm just so confused as to why people don't see the benefit of putting Rattled on regular Houndoom. Like yea Flash Fire is cool but Rattled would be better and would solve the switch problem pretty well.
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Quoting GnralLao above:

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 40 HP / 8 Def Mega Houndoom: 73-86 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- 98.3% chance to 4HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 40 HP / 8 Def Mega Houndoom: 70-83 (23.2 - 27.5%) -- 73.8% chance to 4HKO
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Compare it to:

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 40 HP / 8 Def Houndoom: 116-136 (38.5 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 40 HP / 8 Def Houndoom: 112-133 (37.2 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Gaining base 40 DEF in its Mega Form is more than you realize, in fact, it makes the Mega form 1.5x more capable of taking Knock Offs and Sucker Punches. Houndoom is the type of Pokemon that wants to Mega Evolve as soon as possible, so switching in, fishing for a Ghost/Dark/Bug move in its base form, especially with hazards about (which would be much more of an issue if the base form had Rattled as it simply can't switch in on something like Skarmory as its Spikes, Mega Evolve, and scout its potential answers without being forced to switch out), would whittle it down far too much for it to be useful. For something as frail as regular Houndoom, I'll take an immunity over an ability that requires you to take a hit with those bad defenses any day.

This also goes without saying, but keeping Solar Power (and losing health every turn after already taking a hit in base form) not only completely depletes its HP, but forces Houndoom on a very specific team slot (or have it run Sunny Day, which takes away from its Dark + Fire + Fairy Coverage) and forces it to switch in a very small time window, something the opponent can notice and simply waste out the Sun turns.

Whether Houndoom wants Rattled in its base form or its Mega form depends on whether you want to switch in Houndoom on U-turns and Knock Offs (base form) or on entry hazards, status moves like Defog, Fire-type moves, and the traditional way like slow U-turns and revenge killing (Mega form). Having the ability in its base form guarantees you're only switching in once because a move like U-turn is immensely more effective when you're pairing it with hazards that are already on the field. By coming in and Mega Evolving early (in particular before entry hazards are set down), Houndoom has more opportunities to come in and take advantage of its (albeit, limited) utility options.
 
For me, it's between Gourgeist and Jellicent.

A lot of people have already spoken of Gourgeist, I will just add one thing : most physical-Fire pokemons have another way to deal with the pumpkin (except Entei I guess). It is really good though, but you can't slap Gourgeist in your team and expect him to counter every Fire-mons. You still need something else.

Volt Absorb Jellicent on the other hand... wow. He completely blocks every Electric of the metagame (except Raikou@Shadow Ball from CM / Spec and Knock Off@Thundurus depending of your EVs). Sadly Teravolt let Kyurem-B deals with you, but for me, Jellicen@Volt Absorb is insane against most VoltTurn teams, allowing you to grab back some momentum from Pokemon like Rotom-W who are very annoying. You are also pretty much the perfect Starmie switch-in.
 
Full_Korbe said:
For me, it's between Gourgeist and Jellicent.A lot of people have already spoken of Gourgeist, I will just add one thing : most physical-Fire pokemons have another way to deal with the pumpkin (except Entei I guess). It is really good though, but you can't slap Gourgeist in your team and expect him to counter every Fire-mons. You still need something else.
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The sentence I bolded is exactly what i think about Gourgeist: an immunity to Fire is very appealing but still you lose to most Fire types it is supposed to handle (Head Smash was the way to go). Gourgeist + Flash Fire + Mystical Fire is a little better than it was before due to its newfound immunity to Fire which is useful "only" for fire coverage (including Will o' Wisp and HP Fire) from monsters it is already supposed to check ===> it isn't much better than before.
 
I'll flush this out a a little more latter cause I'm on my cell, but I think that mega houndoom would work great with cressilia, jelicent, and slowking defensively, and lati@s, gengar, And alakazam offensively. Cores to come
Edit: kinda forgot about this one. whoops!
 
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Hi everyone! It's time for voting! Please remember to follow the voting procedure so it makes it easier to count votes n stuff.

Here are your options:
gourgeist-small.gif
+ Flash Fire and Mystical Fire (Credit to Magma)

stoutland.gif
+ Normal / Dark-typing (Credit to YouAreOutOfMy5)

jellicent-f.gif
+ Volt Absorb (Credit to InfernapeTropius11)

houndoom-mega.gif
+ Rattled and Moonblast (Credit to Magma)

Aaaaand the honorable mentions:
- Infernape + Prankster
- Tornadus + Competitive
- Noivern + Nasty Plot
- Umbreon + Unaware
- Typhlosion + Drought
- Spiritomb + Dark Aura
- Glalie + Dragon Dance
- Mega Tyranitar + Sand Force
- Umbreon + Magic Bounce
- Mega Garchomp + Weak Armor
- Electric / Dark Thundurus-T
- Miltank + Ground-type
- Mesprit + Download and Judgment
- Azelf + Fairy-typing (replaces Psychic-typing) and Mold Breaker
Click to expand...

Good luck to every submission n_n

my vote:
Houndoom + Rattled and Moonblast

Honorable mention: Electric / Dark Thundurus-T
 
Mega Houndoom + Rattled and Moonblast

Honorable Mention: Electric/Dark Thundurus-T


I've been really busy so I haven't really formed a solid opinion yet, but this looks to me like the most innovative and fun one

and Thundy may or may not have been my submission so I want it to be official :D
 
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