DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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I wouldn't class Pikachu as "practically go first every time" material. It's speed is actually pretty meh compared to most BL's. And that's just the problem - if Pikachu doesn't go first every time it will faint. A quick glance at the BL tier shows Alalazam, Ambipom, Arcanine, Charizard, Drapion, Entei, Espeon, Floatzel, Flygon, Houndoom, Jolteon, Jynx, Leafeon, Mismagius, Ninjask, Raikou, Scyther, Slaking, Shaymin, Tauros and Uxie are all faster than Pikachu and can all OHKO Pikachu. It won't have a chance to move outside UU.

I think people need to realise that if a Pokemon is BL, it can only be used in OU matches. BL isn't a tier of it's own, and as such there are no BL teams, and no BL matches. If you seriously think it's fair to condemn Pikachu to battle the likes ot Metagross, Garchomp, Salamence and Weavile, then you need to look at it's stats again.

Pikachu's pretty damn gimmick, but Raichu on the other hand is not. With new toys in Nasty Plot, Grass Knot and Focus Blast along with a way for players to actually obtain Surf (thanks PBR...coulda made it legal with NP though), he might need to be tested out. His high speed, great movepool (the aforementioned moves, but lets not forget Encore and a passable attack stat) and ability to boost his special attack to sky high levels make him difficult to wall in UU. He could walk all over most Pokemon in there. Even Grumpig and Hypno are 2HKO'd by a Nasty Plot TBolt.
 
Lee said:
I think people need to realise that if a Pokemon is BL, it can only be used in OU matches. BL isn't a tier of it's own, and as such there are no BL teams, and no BL matches. If you seriously think it's fair to condemn Pikachu to battle the likes ot Metagross, Garchomp, Salamence and Weavile, then you need to look at it's stats again.
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It doesn't matter if a pokemon is too weak for OU play. All that matters is whether or not its too strong for UU.

That said, I personally do believe Pikachu is fine in UU.
 
sanjay120 said:
While I see how including unevolved Pokemon can be hard, it's not entirely unecessary. I don't want to see Kadabra and Chansey in a UU battle. So I think there should be some rules that would cover them.

I can't think of any Pokemon that would break this, and I think it's a good idea. It might need some tweaking, though.
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To begin with those rules are awfully confusing.

Secondly you haven't taken into account of pre-evo's which are virtually on par with their evo's. Best example off the top of my head being Scyther and Scizor.

I think common sense and judgement might suffice here.
 
One pokemon missing from the tier list on the intro to tiers is Jumpluff. I do not know where it belonged previously, but I will say that it should be BL thanks to its max speed variant tying Gengar and Froslass for speed. Also, it pulls off double powder (Stun Spore and Sleep Powder) and is a decent user of subseed. However, its attacking stats are not particularly brilliant (base 50 for both) but is made up by its statusing and subseeding. Also can U-Turn to avoid taunt screw-over.
 
Dragontamer said:
Correct me if I'm wrong. But my understanding is this.

If it is too powerful for UU, then it is BL, aka, possible in OU play, banned from UU play.

Second: If it is very important that we don't talk about the relationship to OU, then can you edit it into the first post?

EDIT: Bah, I'm too tired and I'm not being clear. What I mean is... Walrein seems like it is strong enough to wall OU sweepers, and in practice is able to do so with hail support. Without hail support (aka, UU), it is still an excellent wall, can start the hail by itself, and is very versatile. In OU, it can probably stand on its own, and with that said, it is probably far too strong for UU.
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as we have been trying to make clear for 2-3 years now, the only tier that BL is to be compared to is UU. it's great that you still feel so strongly about walrein that you continue to post about it and use it in ou, but it honestly does not matter what one person thinks about a BL pokemon and how well it can do in OU. it doesn't.

i'm really surprised I have to explain this to even someone of your evident caliber, but let me put it in terms you yourself will be sure to understand: i, personally, could print out a list of all the BL pokemon, tack it onto a dart board, blindfold myself, throw my special edition palkia stylus at any name on that list, and make it work in OU. any one of them. maybe even any two. and i can both let my actions speak for that literally blind aggression, or i can post walls and walls of words about why x BL pokemon can dominate with y support in the OU metagame...or i can do both, over and over to those both willing and disinclined to listen.

starting to sound elitist? i'm glad we're speaking the same language. i happen to feel very strongly about floatzel and how it has actually performed for me in OU, exceeding the expectations i'd set for it after i completed the analysis in which i stated that i wasn't sure if it would be BL or OU. having garnered enough experience to say with actual certainty that it can be a threat in OU, i still hold my tongue. there is a reason i haven't posted a word in this thread about what i think about any pokemon's UU or BL status, and that is because i have not played one second of UU pokemon in DP so i wouldn't be speaking from the experience this thread explicitly calls for. i feel strongly about BL pokemon like jolteon and floatzel, but it honestly doesn't matter at all what i think, because if they are not used, then they by definition are not OU.
 
Good post, jumpman.

It doesn't matter if a pokemon is too weak for OU play. All that matters is whether or not its too strong for UU.
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Of course, I agree completely. But it has been bugging me lately that people (not neccesarily here, moreso on Shoddy) believe Plusle and Minun are quintessential UU's, and that any half-decent Pokemon is too good for them and should therefore be BL, where they'll get to play against Leafeons and Drapions and live happily ever after. It isn't like that. As Jumpman has rightly said, BLs should be able to work in OU and Pikachu doesn't fulfil that criteria. It can be a tricky little sod and bag the odd kill, but it's just fine in UU.
 
Ah now someone mentioned it Jumpluff it is missing from the list. Jumpluff at the very least was a solid BL back in Advance and its effectiveness has not gone down one bit in D/P either. If anything its gone up being able to U-Turn nowadays.
 
For, let me make sure my idea of what BL is is, in fact, correct. BL is a 'faux' tier, one used to contain pokemon deemed to be too strong (regarding typing, base stats, and movepool) for UU. When seen, these pokemon compete in the OU metagame against other "standards". Though, they receive less use and are seen less often than these standards, so are not to be put in the OU tier.

So my question is, what exactly does having a BL tier accomplish? It is not a real tier, and is only used to form a dividing line where UU stops, why even bother differentiating it from OU? I mean, it's not like they're banned from OU, and they can easily compete there. People usually use at least one or two BL pokemon on their standard team (and even some UU), so why not just merge the two. Just call it all like "standards" or just leave it at OU. Then we would have no more people debating whether certain pokemon are to remain in OU or be relegated to BL, or have to worry about calculating which pokemon are used most frequently.

I'm sure I'm missing some obvious reason why this tier that is not actually a tier must exist, but I don't see one good reason for having it.
 
The reason is that OU stands for Over Used, or Use a lot, or Sees more use than the average.
BL Pokémon are strong Pokémon that aren't used a lot, OU Pokémon are Pokémon that are used a lot.
It's as simple as that, it's based on usage.
 
I know what OU stands for, and I know that usage determines the tier, but I just don't see the point of it. Why bother to separate pokemon who can easily compete with eachother into two different groups, if one of the groups isn't even real?
 
Lemmiwinks MkII said:
Lunatone would require almost max HP and Def to take two consecutive CB Superpowers from Torterra. after which Ice Beam may not OHKO.

The problem I see with Torterra is the same as that you have already mentioned regarding Mamoswine. With four 100+ power attacks, double STAB, 522 Attack and excellent type coverage, I fail to see anything in UU that switches in safely.

Therefore, unless you can point out a true 100% counter to it, I say it should be BL for the reasons highlighted above.
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I listed a few off the top of my head. Torterra's problem is that it's slow as heck. Hypno can come in and use Reflect, Lunatone can Hypnosis and Ice Beam, Altaria can Roost off Stone Edge and takes all of Torterra's other attacks like a champ, while launching Flamethrower or Ice Beam of its own. Curse Torterra might be able to slaughter a lot of thngs, but it takes a hit before it can finish anything off, and it still can't OHKO Gligar with Wood Hammer. Nevermind the end result of Curse + Superpower is -1 Speed. Tangela can come in and send it to Sleep, then use Sunnybeam + HP Fire. Ditto for Vileplume, unless it switches in on EQ.

In other words, I doubt Torterra would unbalance the UU metagame, it would just serve as a high-level threat. Mamoswine's unbalancing in UU comes from the fact that not only does it have the third strongest Earthquake in the game, its 80 base speed means almost everything in UU that won't get slaughtered by Ice Shard will be slaughtered by Earthquake or Stone Edge instead, with Mamoswine almost never taking any damage. In nearly any scenario that involves Mamoswine and any UU pokemon, Mamoswine does more damage, more quickly.

Whereas, a Torterra with Curse does have formidable attack and defense, but it always has to eat an attack first.

The two major Torterra sets I think you would see in UU are:

Torterra @ Choice Band
252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 HP,
Adamant
~ Eathquake
~ Wood Hammer/Seed Bomb
~ Stone Edge
~ Superpower/Double-Edge/Leaf Storm

Altaria and Gligar can switch into 3/4 moves here. Reflect Solrock can switch into anything except Wood Hammer and set up Reflect. Note: Seed Bomb and Superpower are incompatible. Torterra gets Superpower from Feraligatr and Seed Bomb from Breloom, Venusaur Abomoasnow, Cacturne, or Exeggutor. Seed Bomb and DE works, since Venu and Eggy can get that through tutors.

This set also interestingly enough gets walled by other Torterra.

Torterra @ Yache Berry
252 HP, 252 Defense, 4 Atk (OR 252 Atk, 4 Defense)
Impish
~ Curse
~ Earthquake
~ Seed Bomb/Wood Hammer/Stone Edge
~ Synthesis

This Torterra is probably the harder of the two to deal with outright. Two Ice Beams can probably take it down either way, but this would be a nightmarish physical wall to come across.

There's also probably other sets like Sub Seed, SR/Roar, and a few other things, but ultimately Torterra's downfall comes from the 4x ce weak, the fact it either needs to set up to be truly menacing or else be a CBer.

I maintain that it wouldn't overcentralize or unbalance UU, but I concede it would be a very powerful threat offensively and defensively.

Things that could easily deal with Torterra that lacks Stone Edge: Venomoth, Altaria, Tangela, Butterfree, Dustox, Pinsir, Scyther, Carnivine.

SunnyBeam Tangela is a 100% counter to non-CB sets (with No Def or HP it can be 2HKOd by Stone Edge, but if its defensive in any way it walls it completely). Other Torterra wall the CB set.
 
ballgofar1004 said:
I know what OU stands for, and I know that usage determines the tier, but I just don't see the point of it. Why bother to separate pokemon who can easily compete with eachother into two different groups, if one of the groups isn't even real?
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Because it makes sense to be confusing.

That and the idea of OU it essentially means the staples, letting you know what you need to counter in an average team.
 
Okay. I'm sorry I tried to cause a fuss here, as now I realize the fault of my ways. I did just read a little tidbit that I had missed when reading the Into to Tiers page, and I get it now.

[my posts should probably be deleted, as they are kind of pointless]
 
ballgofar1004 said:
Okay. I'm sorry I tried to cause a fuss here, as now I realize the fault of my ways. I did just read a little tidbit that I had missed when reading the Into to Tiers page, and I get it now.

[my posts should probably be deleted, as they are kind of pointless]
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Don't be so hard on yourself. We're here to learn.
 
Lee said:
As Jumpman has rightly said, BLs should be able to work in OU and Pikachu doesn't fulfil that criteria. It can be a tricky little sod and bag the odd kill, but it's just fine in UU.

No, Jumpman said that he could use any BL in an OU team by giving it support from the other members of the team. That doesn't mean they necessarily should, it's just that their position of being stronger than UU Pokemon usually means they're good enough to at least do something in OU (compared to, say, Fearow, a UU who has trouble differentiating itself with Staraptor and really doing much damage to teams). It doesn't matter if a Pokemon can compete in OU to become BL. I'm going to quote myself from before, because I can't really say it much clearer than:

"BL Pokemon are things that, based purely on usage, should be UU, but are too strong in UU to be allowed. How good they are in ubers or OU is irrelevant."

Now that was originally directed at people saying "Pokemon X sweeps OU teams so it can't be UU" (for instance, the Druidcruel Forsety mentioned in ADV). However, it still applies to arguments going the other way. "Pokemon X dies in OU so it can't be BL" arguments are just as irrelevant, because BL is defined by its power relationship with UU, not OU.
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ballgofar1004 said:
Okay. I'm sorry I tried to cause a fuss here, as now I realize the fault of my ways. I did just read a little tidbit that I had missed when reading the Into to Tiers page, and I get it now.

[my posts should probably be deleted, as they are kind of pointless]

It's not that big of a deal. Another reason for BL to exist is that they allow for a simpler definition of each tier. You can state that all OUs are commonly used, and all BL / UU Pokemon aren't used that much, and do a similar division of power. If we combined OU and BL, then it would be something like defining OU as "Pokemon that are used a lot OR aren't used that much and are stronger than the other Pokemon that aren't used that much." It's really a way to make everything more consistent.
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I don't see at ALL what makes Mamoswine UU. It would pound in pretty much everything with its superior stats and STABs and holds its own in OU better than a large percentage of BLs.

Prove me wrong.
 
Deck Knight said:
Things that could easily deal with Torterra that lacks Stone Edge: Venomoth, Altaria, Tangela, Butterfree, Dustox, Pinsir, Scyther, Carnivine.

SunnyBeam Tangela is a 100% counter to non-CB sets (with No Def or HP it can be 2HKOd by Stone Edge, but if its defensive in any way it walls it completely). Other Torterra wall the CB set.
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You could also mention Meganium as a decent counter along with Tangela (252 def/hp bold version takes 31.59% - 37.36% from a CB stone edge, though it needs HP Ice to really threaten Torterra in return). Actually, most defensive pure-grass types do a pretty good job of walling Torterra in UU, though besides the aforementioned two I really can't think of any.

Basically all CB variants of Torterra are going to have Stone Edge, so giving a list of pokemon that counter it without Stone Edge is somewhat pointless (several of those pokemon could easily be OHKO'd by a Stone Edge if they didn't realize Torterra had it) . Unfortunately, Altaria is somewhat of a shaky counter, as it takes a lot of defense investment to survive one Stone Edge for certain (it also requires some speed investment to outspeed max speed Adamant Torterra).

Regardless, though...if it did end up in UU, Torterra would most likely end up being one of those pokemon that's difficult to counter but fairly easy to kill, since as you stated, it's slow as molasses and has plenty of weaknesses to hit. I still don't have a real solid opinion as to where it belongs one way or another, though.

I'd worry less about the curse set, since it's designed to last, but it can be fairly easily destroyed or frightened off by anything that's faster and packing a strong ice attack. That's not to say it's not a threat, but compared to the CB set which hits much harder off the bat and will likely be avoiding any ice attacks, it's a lesser threat.
 
Of those pokemone already mentioned I agree that Azumarill, Jumpluff, Typhlosion and Mamoswine should be considered for BL.

Cloyster, Shedninja and possibly Jynx should move down (in the case of the latter wouldn't Hypno and Banette work as counters).

I'm actually quite surprised nobody has mentioned Clefable for possible consideration as a BL what with its insane movepool, self-recovery move, and magic guard.
 
The other pokemon I'm taking issue with in BL is Venusaur. One very important thing happened to Venusaur (and Vileplume/Victreebel, one could argue) to make it UU: Sludge Bomb is now special. What this means is that, rather than being able to break CM Grumpig Subs and force it out [or keep it from coming in in the first place], Venusaur is no longer an unsafe switchin for it. Combine this with the fact it will still do about the same to Vileplume, and I think Venusaur just got hurt, despite the fact SB now runs off its higher attacking stat. Seed Bomb, Energy Ball, and Grass Knot are good additions, but they don't address much of anything in UU they couldn't before, and it doesn't get Poison Jab either. The only thing special sludge bomb helped Venusaur defeat better than before is Tangela, which already lost to Venusaur unless it has the sun out and hadnt sleeped anything yet.

I'm struggling to see how the extra base speed and marginally better defenses puts Venusaur above Vileplume. Victreebel and Vileplume can both abuse the sun better, Shiftry can pull off Subseed and has a better second STAB (also can abuse Sun). Is Subseeding really powerful enough to make up for Vileplume's weakened physical STAB power?

After all, most of the things you'll see switching into it are Psychic special walls like Hypno and Grumpig, Altaria, or half-poison Sunnybeamers like aforementioned Vileplume and Victreebel. Occiaisionally it might also see Poison-Bugs like Venomoth and Ariados, or fire types like Rapidash and Nintetales.
 
Shiny Oddish said:
Of those pokemone already mentioned I agree that Azumarill, Jumpluff, Typhlosion and Mamoswine should be considered for UU.

Cloyster, Shedninja and possibly Jynx should move down (in the case of the latter wouldn't Hypno and Banette work as counters).

I'm actually quite surprised nobody has mentioned Clefable for possible consideration as a BL what with its insane movepool, self-recovery move, and magic guard.
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...What? If you're going to say that, which goes against all of the talk about Mamoswine in this thread so far, at least back it up. Same goes for the others, but Mamoswine was most discussed out of those as of late.

As for Clefable, I would say that it could be UU where the lesser fighting types roam. Clefable doesn't pose too much of a problem for anything with a pretty powerful BB.
 
Clefable will need Magic Guard heavily tested on effectiveness before any judgement can be given. The ability has potential to be gamebreaking: no residual damage at all seems pretty big to me in D/P. Now, with Abomasnow in BL Hail won't matter, but there's still Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, poison and burn in general, the ability to use Life Orb without eating 10% damage every time, the ability to use Double-Edge over Return with absolutely no drawbacks, the ability to use a Toxic/Burn Orb and sop up any kind of status etcetera. Add that while Clefable's stats are fairly average, his movepool is pretty much a lot like Blissey's except that the physical moves aren't gone to waste, and you have some serious contender.

EDIT: Also, for Mamoswine in UU...just to give you an idea of how odd the idea seems to me, it was hyped as the only true Garchomp counter before we knew a lot about DP. If anything it was doubted whether Mamoswine was OU or BL back then...of course now Mamoswine is nowhere to be seen on Shoddy (at least for me) which means to me that it sits pretty in BL.
 
Judicator said:
I don't see at ALL what makes Mamoswine UU. It would pound in pretty much everything with its superior stats and STABs and holds its own in OU better than a large percentage of BLs.

Prove me wrong.
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I think the idea of Mamoswine in UU has flummoxed pretty much everyone here except perhaps Shiny Oddish, who hasn't given any justification to try and prove us wrong. I agree with everyone who says it would overpower UU. Ice/Ground is an incredible attacking STAB combo and, combined with Stone Edge and 130 base attack, is only really countered with airborne Steel types, none of which are allowed in UU.
 
To begin with those rules are awfully confusing.

Secondly you haven't taken into account of pre-evo's which are virtually on par with their evo's. Best example off the top of my head being Scyther and Scizor.

I think common sense and judgement might suffice here.
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Not that confusing. I have them memorized. Then again I do have a great memory.

And I know it will not count for the Scyther/Scizor type evos.
 
Fishin said:
You could also mention Meganium as a decent counter along with Tangela (252 def/hp bold version takes 31.59% - 37.36% from a CB stone edge, though it needs HP Ice to really threaten Torterra in return). Actually, most defensive pure-grass types do a pretty good job of walling Torterra in UU, though besides the aforementioned two I really can't think of any.

Basically all CB variants of Torterra are going to have Stone Edge, so giving a list of pokemon that counter it without Stone Edge is somewhat pointless (several of those pokemon could easily be OHKO'd by a Stone Edge if they didn't realize Torterra had it) . Unfortunately, Altaria is somewhat of a shaky counter, as it takes a lot of defense investment to survive one Stone Edge for certain (it also requires some speed investment to outspeed max speed Adamant Torterra).

Regardless, though...if it did end up in UU, Torterra would most likely end up being one of those pokemon that's difficult to counter but fairly easy to kill, since as you stated, it's slow as molasses and has plenty of weaknesses to hit. I still don't have a real solid opinion as to where it belongs one way or another, though.

I'd worry less about the curse set, since it's designed to last, but it can be fairly easily destroyed or frightened off by anything that's faster and packing a strong ice attack. That's not to say it's not a threat, but compared to the CB set which hits much harder off the bat and will likely be avoiding any ice attacks, it's a lesser threat.
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The other thing I just remembered about UU is the rampantness of Fearow and, if not moved to BL, Swellow. Torterra can probably take a CB Drill Peck (or Brave Bird), but it isn't going to be fighting much longer after that.

I admit the Stone Edge bits were a bit shortsighted, but the basic point is that Torterra has to rely on an 80% accurate 8 PP move if it wants to have the coverage to threaten most of UU. Alternatively you could use Rock Slide, but that is a significant BP drop and still only 90% accurate. If you want to abuse the sweet Grass/Ground Double-STAB, that's two more attacks. This leaves you with stat up (Curse, Rock Polish, Swords Dance), a support move like SR or the Screens, or a 4th attack for use with CB or Choice Scarf, if you're so inclined.

Basically, Torterra has the 4 moveslot syndrome, even in UU. Earthquake and Stone Edge/Rock Slide have the best coverage between the two, but then Gligar runs over you and you don't have an immediate answer for IBeam waters (or LOL CB Megahorn Seaking). Seed Bomb/Wood Hammer and Stone Edge/Rock Slide cover a lot of threats, but don't do much to Mawile/Aggron/Probopass. Dual STAB is cool, except that Bugs and Fliers both resist or immune both, and there are plenty of Bug/Flying in UU.

Although ravaging an opponents team with Seed Bomb/Earthquake/Rock Slide/Rock Polish (OMG flinchax!) would be highly amusing.

Torterra is definetely a close case, but I'm certainly not averse to letting some strong pokemon into UU at least to test them out.
 
Finally, I get to join the legendary Smogon tier-talk!
I think Vaporeon is BL. It's a bit much for Underused, with a fair amount of support moves, good stats, and Wish. (Fake Tears is also a cool phaze move)

Abomasnow is UU. It's got many weaknesses (4x Fire is most crippling, but Fighting, Steel, Bug, Flying, hell even Poison!), meh stats, and all it does is set up Hail. Hail teams don't even work as well as Sandstreamers do in my opinion, since Ice is taken down by... lots.

Magmortar is poopy. Meh movepool, one good enough stat (Sp.Atk) with no Trait help isn't doing it for the red firebreather. It only really works on a Sunny Day team with Solarbeam and even then it's pretty meh. It straddles a fine line between BL and UU I believe.

I'm moderately disappointed that the most powerful attacker in not-Ubers, Medicham, is BL, but that's a discussion for another day.
 
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