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I think it should be clear that this ranking list is made for the average player. Skilled team builders don't need this list, they can make a D or C ranked mon shine through its niche, adequate support and smart play.
In some particular team it may seem like a very low ranked mon deserves to be higher but it really doesn't since when splashed on a (sometimes even very slightly) different team, the pokemon falls flat.
Therefore, unranked mons' niche is sometimes so small that it is not worth mentionning. The cases when donphan is better than excadrill for your team are so small and excadrill's traits so overwhelmingly better in general that you should almost always use the mole even if it means replacing one of your other mons. If you are a top team builder, you obviously do not care where a mon is ranked.
Even putting aside the 4MSS, Honchkrow lacks a reliable Dark STAB to hit things on the switch (most notably Rotom-W) unless you want to try Dark Pulse which requires substantial SpA investment, which detracts from Honchkrow's holepunching and sweeping ability.
I disagree strongly here. Dark Pulse from standard mixed Honchkrow 2OHKOs Lando-T after rocks and gets a roll on Tankchomp, so first, it doesn't really needs to run Icy wind for them. The main reasons against its rises are his poor typing and bulk (true), it weakness to rocks (true), and it's dependance on Brave Bird to deal damage (FALSE). Honchkrow does not need Flying STAB,not with this set. It helps with M-Venusaur and Fairy types, but just the combination of Fight-Dark-Fire coverage is enough to break most of the defensive cores; which Bisharp can't break through . Sucker Punch+Moxie, while it's quite predict dependant, does not leave it exposed to any priority user, unlike Hoopa-U. Pursuit Moxie is a thing too. I leave that there just for the calcs:
Honchkrow has quite notable flaws to be a high rank mon in OU, and its physical set deserves D rank or even unranked. However, Mixed sets are pretty underrated, and that's what I'm defending
Honchkrow without Brave Bird is a travesty. A Honchkrow that can't touch Venusaur. is not a good Honchkrow. Its true that its key niche is as a mixed attacker, but if it doesn't OHKO Landorus it needs to be ready to eat a Stone Edge. The set it should be ranked based on is Sucker+Bird+Icy Wind+Heat Wave, with Icy Wind getting priority on a lot of teams. It aims to take out common stops to birdspam (Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Landorus-T, Garchomp etc.) through OHKOing 4x weaknesses with Icy Wind/Heat Wave (not 2HKOing, because then it doesn't achieve its role very efficiently) while putting pressure onto Skarmory and stopping it from remaining healthy throughout the match (if it goes for damage with Iron Head/Brave Bird or set up Spikes on the Honchkrow, it should die to the following Heat Wave; if it uses Whirlwind, it is often in range of a coverage move from whatever attacker comes out next). Basically Honchkrow aims to put pressure on Skarm by forcing it to roost, which burns through the moves limited PP.
While I am an advocate for Honchkrow (one of my favorite teams is a (kinda crappy) darkspam team with Honch and Cact), I honestly can't see it going above D rank on the basis that the teams that it legitimately fits on are few and far between that it is hard to justify going above D tbh (while I said I have used it on darkspam, it is not a good choice for the team in the slightest - but the team is just there for me to have fun on low ladder with so w/e). What it achieves off of birdspam is almost always filled better by another pokemon or core. I think that Punchsroom's recent post about it covers pretty much all bases here so definitely give it a read if you haven't
Honchkrow has extremely many flaws like poor bulk, low speed, dependance on Sucker Punch, dies fast, has competition from Bisharp and Weavile, and has trouble fitting onto most teams. This is a suicide Pokemon tbh, slightly worse than Staraptor, but has its pros over it like being able to OHKO Ferrothorn and Garchomp without dealing with rocky helmet shenanigans. However, when compared to the trash in D (Chandelure? Pangoro? Meloetta?) it really feels like it's on par with stuff such as Shaymin and Mega Camerupt. This thing really is a chainsaw and it deals severe damage to most enemy cores. Should go to C-.
Ok so a heads up, as this always happens everytime a suspect test happens. Ranking thread is for the current meta, not the presumed one based off of the suspect test. Don't make posts like the one I just deleted on "if this is banned or stays, this should go up or down"
We have a ranking team for a reason, they'll figure that out if and when the time comes thanks.
Edit: Also let's chill a bit with throwing stuff up and down for noms. Suspect tests are the worst periods of time to be doing that for more or less obvious reasons.
I think that Honchkrow in general is outclassed by many(two) of the Darks in OU that have priority, such as Bisharp and Weavile. Honchkrow is slow, often leaving it in situations where it must use Sucker Punch to avoid being obliterated without dealing significant amounts of damage. It's frail, so that unfortunately makes its decent typing not being able to be put to good defensive use. However, it can do a lot of damage to an unprepared team. It has a diverse offensive movepool, letting it scare the likes of almost every OU Pokemon, like Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Landorus-Therian, Skarmory, and iirc there is no Pokemon in OU that cannot be damaged decently by one of Honchkrow's moves.
That said, it has virtually non-existent bulk, so Pursuit-Trapping is somewhat unviable. It has a Base 71 Speed, which is a bad speed tier. It has to use Sucker Punch most of the time to ensure decent damage dealt. Weavile has high speed and is a very good physical sweeper. Bisharp is decently bulky and is pretty versatile in my opinion. Honchkrow is the very definition of a glass cannon, but it has a bad speed tier, so don't expect it to stay in too long.
Honchkrow has quite notable flaws to be a high rank mon in OU, and its physical set deserves D rank or even unranked. However, Mixed sets are pretty underrated, and that's what I'm defending
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the standard Honchkrow set is Mixed. I think that Honchkrow should stay in the D Rank Range, but I guess C- Rank is okay. It is severely outclassed by things like Bisharp and Weavile, who do the sucker punching job better.
Druddigon: Unranked ---> D/C-
Druddigon is a Pokemon that people really like to shit on, whether they are competitive or casual players, but this thing can do some damage.
Druddigon's ability to lure in and destroy Azumarill and Clefable, as well as having enough juice to OHKO Mega Scizor and 2HKO Ferrothorn and Skarmory plus being able to revenge kill Latios and Latias after SR makes it usable on certain teams as a dedicated wallbreaker. Druddigon also posesses decent bulk, since it's able to tank a Dark Pulse from Hoopa-U even with a Naughty nature and destroy it in return with Gunk Shot. A cool thing about Druddigon is that it doesn't really need a Dragon-type move, the funny thing is that Gunk Shot actually hits harder than Dragon Claw, due to Sheer Force, and while Outrage is cool, being locked in is not. This means it can run Superpower or Earthquake over the respective Dragon-type move and thus OHKO Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Bisharp or Heatran.
What Druddigon has over other Dragon-type wallbreakers, such as CB Dragonite and Mega Garchomp:
1) A move to easily OHKO Clefable, even the Unaware Wall.
2) It's not 4x weak to Ice, so it isn't revenge killed by Raikou or Mega Manectric without some prior damage.
3) It can revenge kill Lati@s after Stealth Rock.
4) It doesn't depend on Rapid Spin support and doesn't require sand to work at its fullest, although ironically, Tyranitar is one of Drud's best teammates.
We all know Druddigon's flaws, they are very obvious: abysmal speed, severe competition from other Dragon-type moves, no boosting moves, needs to play Sucker Punch mindgames etc. However, I think Druddigon has finally reached a point where it has a justifiable use in OU.
Chandelure: D -----> Unranked
God dammit, what does this thing do? Hits extremely hard? Fine. But what does this thing even check? Mega Zard Y? It needs Flash Fire to do so, which means it can't abuse its other (better imo) ability to Fire Blast its way through subs, and thus beating mons like Breloom, Serperior or Gengar. And even then Zard Y is usually paired with a Pursuit trapper which can easily mess up Chandelure, especially if its name is Tyranitar. This thing is slow, frail, doesn't have the best coverage in the world, it's forced to choose between HP Ground and HP Fighting, while Specs Fire Blast is easily to telegraph. A weakness to SR does it no favors either.
My problem with Chandelure is that I don't know what is this mon supposed to do. It revenge kills? It wallbreaks? It's pretty bad at both jobs tbh. It offers very little defensive utility, since it can switch safely into one or two threats. I get it, Specs Fire Blast is extremely powerful, and it can KO almost any wall that doesn't resist it... shame there are so many things that do, and many of them don't really care about Shadow Ball either. It needs really good prediction against waters like Azu and Keldeo. As a Choice Scarf mon it fails to outspeed most +1 threats, and while Trick is nice to cripple a wall, Chandelure doesn't even have the raw power to break through defensive cores.
Druddigon: Unranked ---> D/C-
Druddigon is a Pokemon that people really like to shit on, whether they are competitive or casual players, but this thing can do some damage.
Druddigon's ability to lure in and destroy Azumarill and Clefable, as well as having enough juice to OHKO Mega Scizor and 2HKO Ferrothorn and Skarmory plus being able to revenge kill Latios and Latias after SR makes it usable on certain teams as a dedicated wallbreaker. Druddigon also posesses decent bulk, since it's able to tank a Dark Pulse from Hoopa-U even with a Naughty nature and destroy it in return with Gunk Shot. A cool thing about Druddigon is that it doesn't really need a Dragon-type move, the funny thing is that Gunk Shot actually hits harder than Dragon Claw, due to Sheer Force, and while Outrage is cool, being locked in is not. This means it can run Superpower or Earthquake over the respective Dragon-type move and thus OHKO Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Bisharp or Heatran.
What Druddigon has over other Dragon-type wallbreakers, such as CB Dragonite and Mega Garchomp:
1) A move to easily OHKO Clefable, even the Unaware Wall.
2) It's not 4x weak to Ice, so it isn't revenge killed by Raikou or Mega Manectric without some prior damage.
3) It can revenge kill Lati@s after Stealth Rock.
4) It doesn't depend on Rapid Spin support and doesn't require sand to work at its fullest, although ironically, Tyranitar is one of Drud's best teammates.
We all know Druddigon's flaws, they are very obvious: abysmal speed, severe competition from other Dragon-type moves, no boosting moves, needs to play Sucker Punch mindgames etc. However, I think Druddigon has finally reached a point where it has a justifiable use in OU.
Chandelure: D -----> Unranked
God dammit, what does this thing do? Hits extremely hard? Fine. But what does this thing even check? Mega Zard Y? It needs Flash Fire to do so, which means it can't abuse its other (better imo) ability to Fire Blast its way through subs, and thus beating mons like Breloom, Serperior or Gengar. And even then Zard Y is usually paired with a Pursuit trapper which can easily mess up Chandelure, especially if its name is Tyranitar. This thing is slow, frail, doesn't have the best coverage in the world, it's forced to choose between HP Ground and HP Fighting, while Specs Fire Blast is easily to telegraph. A weakness to SR does it no favors either.
My problem with Chandelure is that I don't know what is this mon supposed to do. It revenge kills? It wallbreaks? It's pretty bad at both jobs tbh. It offers very little defensive utility, since it can switch safely into one or two threats. I get it, Specs Fire Blast is extremely powerful, and it can KO almost any wall that doesn't resist it... shame there are so many things that do, and many of them don't really care about Shadow Ball either. It needs really good prediction against waters like Azu and Keldeo. As a Choice Scarf mon it fails to outspeed most +1 threats, and while Trick is nice to cripple a wall, Chandelure doesn't even have the raw power to break through defensive cores.
Well, I actually posted a comment about Chandelure yesterday, but it got deleted since it was based on the presumption of both Sablenite and Shadow Tag not being banned from OU. Hope you can see my reasoning behind it:
If both Sablenite and Shadow Tag remain in OU, I would like to nominate Chandelure for C( I still believe C- is an undersell of it's power) based on his Substitute/Calm Mind set. We are talking about a stallbreaker that can set up agaist half of the popular Pokemon in Stall while still being capable of 2HKOing every single Pokemon that it can't set up on. The most important thing, however, is that Chandelure is the only stallbreaker immune to Shadow Tag, giving it an amazing match-up against Goth-Stall without sacrificing an item-slot for Shed Shell. It still has a decent match up against offensive and balanced teams, countering Mega-Venusaur, Amoonguss( and the extremely rare Lucarios, Cobalions and Infernapes)checking Scizor, Breloom, playing favorable mind-games against Bisharp, discouraging Keldeo's Secret Sword and Medicham's High Jump Kick for a teammate. It's worth noticing that, if able to create a Substitute, there are very few Pokemon that can prevent Chandelure from getting a kill. I know this is a lot of theorymon, but with the Suspect Ladder going on I don't feel like the replays I have are competitive enough to share
Coming from someone who used Chandelure quite a lot, I think it's definitely better than other unranked pokemon or pokemon in D rank such as Crobat, Haxorus, Emboar and (lol) Druddigon. SubCM is a really effective set as it can easily set up subs against pokemon like Jirachi, non-EP Heatran, Zard Y (Solar breaks subs but it won't stay in) MScizor, non-HP Ground Volcarona, Mega Venusaur and Clefable. I mean Tyranitar and rocks weakness are really, really annoying for it and I can definitely agree with you on that after playing over 30 matches with it but it's a D rank mon atm, you shouldn't be too harsh to it. It is cool as a stallbreaker that doesn't get trapped by Gothitelle, can break Unaware and has the coverage and typing to beat pokemon such as Chansey and Amoonguss. Not lacking against balance either because it checks stuff I mentioned before pretty well and it's really hard to actually switch in without something like Tyranitar or AV Azu.
I don't really know why you nominate something to move down in the first place if you don't know what it is supposed to do, which you even confirmed by not even giving a small mention to arguably its best set which is SubCM. I don't know if you actually faced Chandelure or played with Chandelure, but your post makes it seems like you did not. Try it and you won't be disappointed if you use it well and give it the support it needs.
D and C- is a pretty big mess and I talked a bit with bludz about it a week ago. Stuff like Jellicent to C-, Mega Aggron to C, Haxorus to unranked etc. is all so subjective because there isn't really a guideline down there. You can argue that Mega Glalie deserves to be ranked and with the right arguments I agree with that, but there are also a lot of arguments in favor of keeping it unranked. In the end, whether or not Mega Glalie deserves to be ranked is really subjective and that's the case with many pokemon in D / C- / unranked pokemon. Chandelure on the other hand, is without a doubt D rank worthy. C is kinda exaggerating its capabilities though ElGomo
SketchUp, I feel like C isn't an exaggeration due to the other stuff that resides in this tier. I mean, Chandelure isn't by any means a top OU-threat, but at least he has a well defined niche, don't you think so? Correct me if I'm wrong, but stuff like Mega-Latios and regular Hoopa are simply outclassed in any role they can perform, and other Pokemon seen in C- have(in my opinion) even smaller niches than Chandelure, such as regular Venusaur and Mega-Banette
Chandelure: D -----> Unranked
God dammit, what does this thing do? Hits extremely hard? Fine. But what does this thing even check? Mega Zard Y? It needs Flash Fire to do so, which means it can't abuse its other (better imo) ability to Fire Blast its way through subs, and thus beating mons like Breloom, Serperior or Gengar. And even then Zard Y is usually paired with a Pursuit trapper which can easily mess up Chandelure, especially if its name is Tyranitar. This thing is slow, frail, doesn't have the best coverage in the world, it's forced to choose between HP Ground and HP Fighting, while Specs Fire Blast is easily to telegraph. A weakness to SR does it no favors either.
My problem with Chandelure is that I don't know what is this mon supposed to do. It revenge kills? It wallbreaks? It's pretty bad at both jobs tbh. It offers very little defensive utility, since it can switch safely into one or two threats. I get it, Specs Fire Blast is extremely powerful, and it can KO almost any wall that doesn't resist it... shame there are so many things that do, and many of them don't really care about Shadow Ball either. It needs really good prediction against waters like Azu and Keldeo. As a Choice Scarf mon it fails to outspeed most +1 threats, and while Trick is nice to cripple a wall, Chandelure doesn't even have the raw power to break through defensive cores.
If you do not even know what this CAP is supposed to do, you are better off asking a member of the VR team instead of nomming it to be unranked because you do not even know what it does. They almost would certainly be able to answer your questions and concerns instead of you complaining here.
If you do not even know what this CAP is supposed to do, you are better off asking a member of the VR team instead of nomming it to be unranked because you do not even know what it does. They almost would certainly be able to answer your questions and concerns instead of you complaining here.
When I asked "what is this pokemon supposed to do" I meant "what does chandelure that isn't severely outclassed or doesn't do much in the long run?"
What does sub chandelure have over gengar? The latter doesn't need to boost to pose a huge threat to defensively-inclined teams, is faster, can actually OHKO fairies and has taunt. How does SubCM Chandelure get past mons like Zard X, Manaphy or Hoopa-U? It's almost useless against offensive teams due to its low bulk and speed. It's good against stall and balance, I admit that. But why would I use it when I have gengar?
I'm very sceptical tbh, I can see the reasons to leave this thing in D rank but it just seems out of place, especially with stuff like Mence or Shedinja which are simply put better...
I need to try SubCM Chandy, and I'll give you feedback.
I personally don't understand why you'd ever use Chandelure over Gengar, Hoopa-C or Charizard-Y TBH because they all achieve its role as a stallbreaker/wallbreaker significantly better than it due to their speed tiers (in Gengar and Zard's case) and (in Zard/Hoopa-C's case) greater power just make them noticably more effective in their jobs. I mean, I can understand the set its ranked for (Sub+CM) and how it functions, but I don't really see what it aims to do with that set that isn't done better by Hoopa-C's Sub/Taunt+NP set - which still sets up on Chansey and still can't be trapped by Gothitelle. The only real reason I can see to use it is that it sets up on Skarmory... but unboosted Hoopa-C forces it out with the combination of Shadow Ball and Taunt anyway (SpD Skarm gets 3HKO'd before a boost and set up on with NP+Taunt, while physdef just gets 2HKOed).
However, despite this, I still have a gut feeling that it should remain ranked, and I see the key reasoning for it to be ranked. I think that SketchUp has pretty much covered all bases ragarding Chandelure (although I disagree with the sentiment that it is better than stuff like Meloetta) and therefore defend it remaining ranked (just not higher).
edit: this is how it breaks past zard y
+1 252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 189-223 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I personally don't understand why you'd ever use Chandelure over Gengar, Hoopa-C or Charizard-Y TBH because they all achieve its role as a stallbreaker/wallbreaker significantly better than it due to their speed tiers (in Gengar and Zard's case) and (in Zard/Hoopa-C's case) greater power just make them noticably more effective in their jobs. I mean, I can understand the set its ranked for (Sub+CM) and how it functions, but I don't really see what it aims to do with that set that isn't done better by Hoopa-C's Sub/Taunt+NP set - which still sets up on Chansey and still can't be trapped by Gothitelle. The only real reason I can see to use it is that it sets up on Skarmory... but unboosted Hoopa-C forces it out with the combination of Shadow Ball and Taunt anyway (SpD Skarm gets 3HKO'd before a boost and set up on with NP+Taunt, while physdef just gets 2HKOed).
However, despite this, I still have a gut feeling that it should remain ranked, and I see the key reasoning for it to be ranked. I think that SketchUp has pretty much covered all bases ragarding Chandelure (although I disagree with the sentiment that it is better than stuff like Meloetta) and therefore defend it remaining ranked (just not higher).
edit: this is how it breaks past zard y
+1 252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 189-223 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Well, I wasn't aware of this Hoopa-C set. I feel like it loses hard to Sableye, no?( does it get the 2HKO unboosted?). As of ZardY, he can't break stall by itself, as Chansey is a cold stop to it. Gengar depends too much on the moves he chose. Sub with Black Sludge isn't a threat to SpDef Skarmory. Life Orb is worn down quickly. Taunt risks getting bounced back. Gengar is a much better option than Chandelure in OU, of course, but I believe Chandler's matchup against stall is better
Well, I wasn't aware of this Hoopa-C set. I feel like it loses hard to Sableye, no?( does it get the 2HKO unboosted?). As of ZardY, he can't break stall by itself, as Chansey is a cold stop to it. Gengar depends too much on the moves he chose. Sub with Black Sludge isn't a threat to SpDef Skarmory. Life Orb is worn down quickly. Taunt risks getting bounced back. Gengar is a much better option than Chandelure in OU, of course, but I believe Chandler's matchup against stall is better
I mean, doesn't SubTaunt or Hex gar just beat stall anyway without flat out losing to offense? I mean, I don't think Chandy should be unranked or anything, but its niche is so insanely small that it is hard to justify why you'd use it over other stallbreakers. As for Charizard, it was the main reason I slashed wallbreaker with stallbreaker, because v.s. teams it can't get a CM up versus or is limited to one CM versus, it is, in effect, a wallbreaker as opposed to a stallbreaker. In the role of raw wallbreaking, Zard is noticably better due to Drought. However, I understand the reason you'd use Chandy over it because you can stallbreak. The reason I don't think it should be unranked is because it is sweet role compression between Gar, Zard and Hoopa-C, but it is just super hard to justify its use on a lot of teams.
As for Hoopa-C, it doesn't beat Sab 1v1 but it is able to severely dent it (2 Shadow Balls almost kill it before a boost) and it can score the KO at +2 after only a little prior damage.
Like I said, don't unrank Chandy. I'm just saying it shouldn't go up imo.
I mean, doesn't SubTaunt or Hex gar just beat stall anyway without flat out losing to offense? I mean, I don't think Chandy should be unranked or anything, but its niche is so insanely small that it is hard to justify why you'd use it over other stallbreakers. As for Charizard, it was the main reason I slashed wallbreaker with stallbreaker, because v.s. teams it can't get a CM up versus or is limited to one CM versus, it is, in effect, a wallbreaker as opposed to a stallbreaker. In the role of raw wallbreaking, Zard is noticably better due to Drought. However, I understand the reason you'd use Chandy over it because you can stallbreak. The reason I don't think it should be unranked is because it is sweet role compression between Gar, Zard and Hoopa-C, but it is just super hard to justify its use on a lot of teams.
As for Hoopa-C, it doesn't beat Sab 1v1 but it is able to severely dent it (2 Shadow Balls almost kill it before a boost) and it can score the KO at +2 after only a little prior damage.
Like I said, don't unrank Chandy. I'm just saying it shouldn't go up imo.
Can we stop arguing about Chandelure now? Out of all the posts on the last page, SketchUp's seems to be the only one that is informed by a significant amount of usage on his part. Generally we've tried to stray away from lower ranks so far for that reason: people tend to base their arguments on theory which can amount to a failure in understanding that pokemon's true role in the metagame.
SketchUp mentioned that we spoke and agreed that the lower ranks could use a shake up. I feel like a major issue with the C ranks and below is that because they do not receive as much usage as stuff in A and B ranks, people (myself included in many cases) have less experience with them and thus their opinions on them are less... valid. I mean if you consider something like Tornadus-T I'm sure we all have a ton of experience with it and its role in the metagame, what it does etc and can speak very strongly on how effective it is and what metagame trends effect it. Then we get to something like Chandelure and barely anyone uses it because it's pretty bad, so most of the discussion on it comes either from experience playing against it or theorizing its niche in comparison to higher ranked mons (see: Gengar), rather than actual experience in using it.
I find it kind of frustrating that the hot topics are the ones that people are less informed on (unranked nominations too).
Anyway I've been putting into a place a plan for myself to play with a bunch of the lower ranked stuff that I have limited experience with so I can have a stronger opinion on them. I owe it to you guys to do a good job and the lower ranks count as well, but I don't want to participate in a theory fest.
PS: watched those replays and Druddigon didn't really do anything a Garchomp or Dragonite could not have. The KO on Mega Diancie was simply a bad play by the opponent which could have been punished by EQ from another dragon type, they simply didn't know what Druddigon does and that in itself doesn't make it viable. Move on from this.
OK I feel a lot of people might not agree with, and I was even nominating it for S rank not too long ago, but Mega Lopunny has been so underwhelming lately. Every team I use it on and every time I come up against it, it just falls flat. Sure it does its thing against offense but Mega Zam is becoming more common, and random Clef or Hippo on offense is around quite a bit. It's constantly strapped for moves, and the quick attack set that's becoming more common then loses to Fatchomp and Lando. It's still decent and I'm not nominating it to move down, I'm just bringing it up to see what everyone else thinks.
OK I feel a lot of people might not agree with, and I was even nominating it for S rank not too long ago, but Mega Lopunny has been so underwhelming lately. Every team I use it on and every time I come up against it, it just falls flat. Sure it does its thing against offense but Mega Zam is becoming more common, and random Clef or Hippo on offense is around quite a bit. It's constantly strapped for moves, and the quick attack set that's becoming more common then loses to Fatchomp and Lando. It's still decent and I'm not nominating it to move down, I'm just bringing it up to see what everyone else thinks.
It's fine where it's at. You're putting it down for very specific circumstances in a pool of only a handful of checks not seeing the bigger picture that M-Kazams potential is somewhat hyped when its success rides on more of the team than itself at times and if you're implying that it's worse than M-Scizor (lol) and all the other A+ stuff while being on par with more manageable stuff like Gardevoir and M-Gyarados then Idk what to say.
azelf is a really good pokemon right now, and before i get into it let me just clear up what somebody is bound to say: don't use skill swap. skill swap is awful. it's so predictable, it is inconsistent, and it quite frankly is a waste of the manpower behind azelf. instead, use Vertex's set: stealth rock / psychic / fire blast / dazzling gleam. this set is an incredibly good offensive presence for hyperoffense teams. this is the set i'm basing this nomination around, and since it's a somewhat newer set, and it's seemingly gaining a bit of traction, i believe this nomination is valid.
anyways, azelf puts a lot of pressure on offensive / balance builds, and can take on mega sableye 1v1 which is an amazing feat for a stealth rock setter. since dazzling gleam 2hkoes, and foul play / knock off do not ko in return, it can safely take out mega sableye and then proceed to set stealth rock, a major boon for offensive teams. another common pokemon that azelf has a favorable matchup against is clefable, which is unable to switch safely into a psychic. my personal favorite thing that azelf brings to the table is beating mega venusaur, which gives offensive teams more leniency with their keldeo's to spam hydro pump or their bisharp's to launch knock offs. azelf has a great matchup versus defog users. it effectively takes out life orb latios (life orb dmg + stealth rock + dazzling gleam = dead latios), it easily koes excadrill (though it loses to iron head, and spdef can catch it off guard), mega scizor is decimated, skarmory is ohkoed, etc, you get the idea. azelf's speed tier is very important. it outspeeds serperior, keldeo, mega metagross, mega diancie, thundurus, and a bunch of other offensive pokemon which takes the ease off of your team and can help with specific threats you struggle with.
the amount of pressure this pokemon puts on the opposing team is insane, and because it is often a sash lead, the opponent tries to counter lead. this leads to an easy first turn advantage because you can outpredict the opponent. for example, if the opponent has a mega lopunny, they'll often lead to get off a fake out and such. to respond, you can go right to talonflame or what have you. it's a really noticeable playstyle difference you get the feel of when you're playing azelf.
however, azelf does fall short. weavile and tornadus-t are really irritating to azelf's success, and it can give pokemon it can't ohko a turn to set up; notably mega altaria and mega charizard x. azelf, although it does fare well versus offensive teams, just doesn't do so brightly against defensive teams because chansey is always going to switch in and wear azelf down; but i guess the same can be said about a lot of pokemon. the thing is, azelf's niche is just so specified and restricted that it can't be super flexible. once your set is revealed, azelf loses a lot of its shock factor. azelf really only stands out from say latios because of its access to stealth rock, but it loses out on defensive prowess and that coveted dragon typing. being the only offensive psychic-type with powerful special attacks (m-metagross can work ig but why?) and just being the only pokemon to fit that exact role make azelf an excellent pokemon. i feel that its current ranking is doing it injustice, and it deserves a rise to reflect how viable azelf is in the current metagame.
also i beat m00ns with a team featuring azelf but didn't save the replay o///o
lost to AD impish john in a gg, but it does show how azelf is an effective pressure setter. because he has one psychic-type immunit (even resist), and it loses to dazzling gleam, azelf could come in and capitalize on the weakened mega diancie to cause mindgames that always result in azelf's favor. sorry about the misses man, but i think it was made up for :p.
I noticed that one of the points was for a scolipede drop, which, for the most part, I disagree with. It's suicide lead set is mostly "meh" in my opinion, lacking stealth rock, taunt, and requiring a focus sash. It's offensive set, to put it bluntly, is the shit. It's an extremely efficient late game sweeper with a set holding a life orb consisting of Protect/SD, Megahorn, and the last two moveslots two of poison jab, earthquake, rock slide, and Aqua tail. It can afford to run Adamant too, so it can actually smash through a lot of neutral stuff with Megahorn. I have an RMT with my description that features scolipede, and it does do quite well when paired with the proper Pokemon. I don't think that it should rise, but I certainly do not think it should drop.
gdi I wanted to post something but thought I was going to get flak for bringing up something that just dropped. Eh, I guess I'll post anyway and piggyback off of your post.
As Unfixable said, the main reason it should raise back into B- is not for its lead set - the lead set is certainly C+ atm. The main set I was thinking of was an offensive variant, along these lines:
Azelf @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Explosion / Nasty Plot / Stealth Rock
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam / Grass Knot / Fire Blast / Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam / Grass Knot / Fire Blast / Shadow Ball
Other options for the last two slots include Taunt, U-Turn, Thunder Wave or Substitute. Of course, 29 HP IVs if you're running Life Orb, and a Naive or Hasty nature if running Explosion. Slashed in no particular order.
The first moveslot is the main reason to use Azelf over Alakazam; Explosion lets Azelf deal heavy damage to an opposing Pokemon right before it goes down, Nasty Plot allows it to boost its SpAtk, which Alakazam cannot do, and Stealth Rock punishes the switches that Azelf forces, although the opponent usually needs to have no Pursuiter currently up to be able to do so. Outside of that first moveslot, Azelf can actually beat most of its answers. Dazzling Gleam hits Tyranitar, Weavile, and M-Sableye hard, Grass Knot deals with Tyranitar and OHKOs Hippowdon, Fire Blast (or Flamethrower) hits Steel-types that would otherwise wall it, namely Bisharp and Scizor, and Shadow Ball gets rid of opposing Psychic-types such as the Latis, who otherwise wall Azelf to no end. As for items, Life Orb is the obvious first recommendation, to boost Azelf's power level the highest while allowing it to switch moves. However, Life Orb wears down Azelf extremely fast, especially since it is generally very close to Sand setters - Tyranitar switches in, while Hippo is switched into to try and OHKO with a surprise Grass Knot. Expert Belt gets rid of the nasty recoil and allows you to bluff a sash, while still dealing enough damage to the Pokemon your coverage moves are trying to hit, although Explosion is not boosted. Wise Glasses is also an option over Expert Belt if you REALLY want to boost Psychic's power.
In other words, even though it has competition from Alakazam, who has a higher SpAtk, Spd, and immunity to chip damage, Azelf brings different coverage a three powerful moves Alakazam does not, which in my opinion warrants a spot in B-, especially since it currently holds the surprise card as everyone expects the sash variant.
gdi I wanted to post something but thought I was going to get flak for bringing up something that just dropped. Eh, I guess I'll post anyway and piggyback off of your post.
As Unfixable said, the main reason it should raise back into B- is not for its lead set - the lead set is certainly C+ atm. The main set I was thinking of was an offensive variant, along these lines:
Azelf @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Explosion / Nasty Plot / Stealth Rock
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam / Grass Knot / Fire Blast / Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam / Grass Knot / Fire Blast / Shadow Ball
Other options for the last two slots include Taunt, U-Turn, Thunder Wave or Substitute. Of course, 29 HP IVs if you're running Life Orb, and a Naive or Hasty nature if running Explosion. Slashed in no particular order.
The first moveslot is the main reason to use Azelf over Alakazam; Explosion lets Azelf deal heavy damage to an opposing Pokemon right before it goes down, Nasty Plot allows it to boost its SpAtk, which Alakazam cannot do, and Stealth Rock punishes the switches that Azelf forces, although the opponent usually needs to have no Pursuiter currently up to be able to do so. Outside of that first moveslot, Azelf can actually beat most of its answers. Dazzling Gleam hits Tyranitar, Weavile, and M-Sableye hard, Grass Knot deals with Tyranitar and OHKOs Hippowdon, Fire Blast (or Flamethrower) hits Steel-types that would otherwise wall it, namely Bisharp and Scizor, and Shadow Ball gets rid of opposing Psychic-types such as the Latis, who otherwise wall Azelf to no end. As for items, Life Orb is the obvious first recommendation, to boost Azelf's power level the highest while allowing it to switch moves. However, Life Orb wears down Azelf extremely fast, especially since it is generally very close to Sand setters - Tyranitar switches in, while Hippo is switched into to try and OHKO with a surprise Grass Knot. Expert Belt gets rid of the nasty recoil and allows you to bluff a sash, while still dealing enough damage to the Pokemon your coverage moves are trying to hit, although Explosion is not boosted. Wise Glasses is also an option over Expert Belt if you REALLY want to boost Psychic's power.
In other words, even though it has competition from Alakazam, who has a higher SpAtk, Spd, and immunity to chip damage, Azelf brings different coverage a three powerful moves Alakazam does not, which in my opinion warrants a spot in B-, especially since it currently holds the surprise card as everyone expects the sash variant.
Two things though, first, explosion is easily punished by a ghost switch in. If your opponent predicts correctly, you just lost a pokemon on your team.
Second, azelf is just too frail and its offensive typing too bad to set up nasty plot. While it may set up on some mons, most just don't care. Stealth rock seems good tho.
I think azelf should be running some kind of physical move on its sets if it wants to go toe to toe with alakazam and its mega, so explosion should be on most sets. Azelf definitely has some toys to play with, but alakazam just outclasses it so much. So yeah, I'd run explosion on most offensive sets, or at least U-turn. You need to capitalize on what Azelf has over Alakazam, or its gonna be outclassed.
Azelf has fire coverage, nasty plot, levetate, and most importantly stealth rock. it already has a niche over alakazam without being mixed.
The LO set has a pretty good matchup against most rockers if you have the right move.
252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 380-452 (107.9 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 377-445 (89.7 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 333-393 (99.7 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 395-468 (103.4 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Azelf Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 380-452 (90.6 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Two things though, first, explosion is easily punished by a ghost switch in. If your opponent predicts correctly, you just lost a pokemon on your team.
Second, azelf is just too frail and its offensive typing too bad to set up nasty plot. While it may set up on some mons, most just don't care. Stealth rock seems good tho.
That's literally just gengar because sabeleye would lead anyway (and is the whole reason dazzling gleam is mentioned), and gengar is nowhere near a reliable switchin when it gets bopped by its stab. Azelf can definitely make nasty plot work. It's got thundy-tier stats and its movepool is pretty great. It's uncommon enough that most people won't play around potential setup and its definitely strong enough to punch some holes. You just gotta be mindful of what coverage you pick and use it more to support a more reliable sweeper like lop or bisharp.
