Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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Credit to PK Gaming for the format

Welcome to the official OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.

  • EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Ferrothorn can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Skarmory can be can also be ranked in B tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples not representative of their future or current ranks.
Finally, here are the people that have the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list (as in, the people that gather the community's input to make final decisions, as well as being well informed players themselves):

Ranking Team:

We are alphabetical just like the mons.

SETS: If looking for sets they can be found in the preliminary pokedex sub-forum along with the OU Analyses sub-forum for WIP.
Sets viability thread can be found in this link below for discussion of which sets are more viable than others in the meta.

ORAS OU Ranking Tier List

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank:

S Rank


A Rank:

A+ Rank

Alakazam (Mega)
Charizard (Mega-X)
Diancie (Mega)
Lopunny (Mega)
Metagross (Mega)
Sableye (Mega)
Scizor (Mega)

A Rank

Charizard (Mega-Y)
Gardevoir (Mega)
Gyarados (Mega)
Latias (Mega)
Medicham (Mega)
Venusaur (Mega)

A- Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega)
Altaria (Mega)
Manectric (Mega)
Pinsir (Mega)
Slowbro (Mega)

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Heracross (Mega)

B Rank

Beedrill (Mega)
Gallade (Mega)
Garchomp (Mega)
Sharpedo (Mega)
Swampert (Mega)

B- Rank

Pidgeot (Mega)
Sceptile (Mega)


Tyranitar (Mega)

C Rank:

C+ Rank

Ampharos (Mega)
Blastoise (Mega)


C Rank

Aggron (Mega)
Banette (Mega)

Houndoom (Mega)


C- Rank

Absol (Mega)

D Rank:

Rules - Now updated 8/18/2015
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted.
  • No flaming and being an idiot. You'll get warned if you purposely do. This specifically includes making joke nominations about other users.
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
  • Suspect talk, unrelated stuff, one liners that ask questions that provide no substance, something that doesn't really pertain to rankings or petty arguments about semantics and definitions, such as the definition of a counter as one example, will be deleted.
  • PKGaming is amazing. This is an undisputed fact.... that apparently still holds true due to creating the format so I guess I'm leaving it here.
  • See bludz' signature for how to not get your posts deleted.
Blacklisted Pokemon: If these are brought up in thread post and any posts replying to it will be deleted.
  • Mega Latios

Happy posting ♪♪

Current Discussion Points:

Open discussion
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Mega Medicham A- -> A
Play with this and you'll see why. We all agreed this thing is a big threat to a lot of teams and being countered by some fat psychic types is overblown just because Bullet Punch is popular but Ice Punch / ThunderPunch can bop Celebi / Slowbro pretty hard. Yes M-Sab is an issue but builds are finding ways to pressure it.

Mega Gallade B+ -> B
Kind of in a spot between Medicham and Lopunny where one obliterates fat shit better and one beats offense better. Knock Off is nice but its still pressured by a lot of common things these days and the opportunity cost of using it over one of the others is pretty high.

Mega Swampert B+ -> B
Team felt drop to B- was too far since immunity to T-Wave as a rain sweeper and ability to pressure sand builds without rain up is nice. Still, Kingdra is the main Rain sweeper these days and stuff like M-Scizor and M-Pinsir fit so well on rain that Swampert's opportunity cost is high for what it does.

So new council has only been together for a short time and the majority of us being new we're still getting used to it. Small update this time but we have some other things that we've been talking about so don't worry too much about that.

Discussion points:

Hippowdon A+ -> A
Raikou A- -> A
Serperior A- -> A
Gothitelle B -> B+
Empoleon B -> B-

Open for business so happy posting

Unlucky Desperado

Banned deucer.
I think Hippowdon should drop to A. The reason is that so many Pokemon can switch in on it and threaten the opposing team. This is the case for many relatively passive Pokemon but given that Hippo is a pivot that is likely to be setting Rocks, it allows "free" switch ins to many Pokemon, as opposed to Slowbro for example, which threatens Scald burns or Twave.

Yes Hippowdon checks lots of threats and is good but I can list these mons that find it easy to come in on Hippo:
Clefable, Manaphy, Mega Sab, Azumarill, Ferrothorn, Keldeo, Lando-T, Lati twins, Mega Scizor, Torn T. This is only in S and A+ and are some of the most threatening Pokemon with dominant presence in the metagame.

Last Hippo suffers from 4MSS. It wants to be able to use {Sr, slack off, eq, stone edge, toxic, whirlwind}. Yes you can argue that picking one of edge,toxic, whirlwind are based off your team choice but inevitably there will be times you wished you had another option instead of the move you currently run.

Tl;dr: Hippo is a great mon that walls many Pokemon but it is pretty passive and offers safe switch ins to many powerful Pokemon.
Thoughts on slate:
-> A

Raikou to A comes up even so often, and probably time for it to come up again. SubCM is a really awesome set that can turn a lot of common mons into set-up bait. Due to 115 base speed, SubCM does a great job late game when it comes to sweeping teams. Choice Specs is another decent set that does a great job at wearing down non-Ground type checks while also gaining momentum. As far as Raikou vs Mane, Mane would be the better choice most of the time (outside of CM related needs) but Raikou is so much easier to fit onto a team than Manectric due to not having the Mega stone cost associated with it. I view them basically as equals in that Mane is superior, but Raikou is more splashable, and I feel that should be represented as such in the rankings. SubCM is really good right now as well and can even use something like Venu as set-up bait in some situations.

-> B+

This makes sense on the basis that it defines a whole playstyle, although it is a linear one. It just does so much for GothStall builds in terms of checking boosting non-Mega stallbreakers that would otherwise just harass those stall teams otherwise, especially shit like Clefable and Manaphy. When you think of what defines in meta, Goth comes to mind as much as almost anything else (even if Sableye enables that entire team more than anything else lol). Seeing something that meta-defining in B doesn't make much sense these days.

-> A

Not too sold on this one. Hippo is such a great start for defensive cores because it can handle so much. I get the argument that teams can rely on Hippo to check to many threats (which is why I think it would move down?), and that it realistically won't be able to check everything in one package, because winning against some threats like Char-X leaves Hippo at like 30% iirc. I guess I see Hippo on the level of Chomp and Lando-T because their various advantages over each other seem to balance out. Hippo is by far the most passive fat Ground of the three, but it's also the only one with reliable recovery which closes the gap quite a bit.

Some noms of my own:
-> A-

Breloom should move back up (I think back up?) to A-. It effectively checks two of the biggest threats currently in the game for offensive teams, those threats being Excadrill and Mega Lopunny. STAB Technician Mach Punch is a really good asset to it overall. Grass STAB is also very complimentary and does a great job of breaking down Hippowdon, Slowbro, and other fat Grounds and Waters. Add in versatility in supporting options such as Spore and Swords Dance, and Breloom becomes a really easy Pokemon to fit onto teams. I don't think there's much more to say outside of strong Mach Punch, ability to break some fat pivots, and ability to take advantage of free turns through Spore and/or SD makes Breloom a very solid pick in the current metagame. Also Poison Heal Breloom is a decent wallbreaker that's capable of beating a couple of common stall cores although that wouldn't be the reason it should move up.

-> A-

I think Terrakion is really underrated in B+. Since the Gross hype has died down it should move back to A-. Terrak has decent versatility in sets, which enables it to be useful to tons of different teams. Choice Band does a great job of plain beating down teams between STAB CC and STAB Stone Edge and beats a lot of checks. Choice Scarf outspeeds practically the entire meta, and can revenge kill everything from +1 Char-X to Mega Lopunny to Weavile. Double Dance sets are really effective in that Terrak two STABs have such good complimentary coverage it can afford to run two boosting moves. Variations such as Rock Polish+3 attacks or SD+3 attacks are also doable as the extra coverage helps. I think that its now a little over-exaggerated how much something like Metagross or Diancie or even Sableye really checks it. especially since Gross takes like 64% on average from LO CC for example. Please don't mention the lead set its bad really and truly bad.

-> B-

Not rocket science. Coba can handle Bisharp and Weavile well enough, and also offers role compression on top of that by often being able to fit Rocks and generate some momentum with Volt Switch. Not a lot to say outside of that because there's really only one reason to use Cobalion, aka to check offensive Darks, but it does a great job of that without giving up too much momentum or being too much deadweight.
hippowdown is honestly kind of disappointing right now. it is really easy to take advantage using manaphy which is both common af and obliterates balance and using it slows down your momentum by clicking stealth rock. not to mention a rise in wisp zardx which turns it into useless shit. the same thing applies with wisp tflame. finally the way it needs certain slots to cover specific mons. without stone edge, you lose to offensive tflame, air balloon excadrill, and thundurus. without whirlwind, shit like m-alt will set up for free.

now it is an electric type check, exca team supporter (compare to ttar which actually has real coverage) and is usually paired with skarmory or mega venusaur, but that still doesn't ignore the fact you are restricting yourself to hard balance. hell even garchomp balance is good af because you still win against pup lopunny and phase hazard damage unlike hippo, a shittier check as the metagame shifts = more support = sigh

it rly hit a decline with the surge of balance breakers it gives free switch ins too like kyurem-b and manaphy whereas other grounds have a much more appealing way to somewhat alleviate this ex. landorus-t has u-turn and garchomp can time things with dragon tail or earthquake

i have talked with a bunch of well known users and a lot of us agree its no longer at the peak performance it was at initially. drop it
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On a serious note, I agree with the rise for Gothitelle, albeit with additional reasons other than those which have been explained by Celticpride. I agree with what he said in that Gothitelle defines an entire playstyle, but I want to emphasize the potential of Gothitelle on offensive teams as well. As Goth's place in the meta at the moment is primarily that of a trapper on stall to remove most non-mega wall/stallbreakers, I feel that a significant amount of its potential is overlooked in the fact that it can greatly aid offensive teams in removing checks. For instance, if paired with M-Gyarados, Goth can pick off Keldeo and Ferrothorn with STAB and HP Fire, respectively. If you're pairing it with Charizard-X, you could use Grass Knot to trap and remove Hippowdon and Quagsire. This potential to perform well as an offensive trapper is something that we sometimes overlook in favor of its role on stall.

Because we tend to forget about its potential to support powerful sweepers, Gothitelle's ability to help out an offensive team is something that makes it less predictable than you'd expect. Its potential and versatility suggests to me that it deserves the rise to B+.

e: deleted am troll stuff
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Next post about ranking AM (why is this a thing??) is going to be infracted. Drop it.

You know what? This is now a blanket rule for this thread. Any posts about ranking users, John Cena, or whatever other off topic BS you guys come up with will be infracted as well. Ranking team please don't encourage this by jokingly ranking users in the OP.
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Thoughts on the current slate:
A+ -> A
Hippowdon to A is something I agree with. Like Vertex said, it restricts teambuilding to slower balance, which is not particularly effective in this metagame. Add to that the fact that it is incredibly predictable barring the last slot, and even then tons of mons can safely take advantage of it - a problem which is further exacerbated once the 4th move is revealed. Hippo also finds itself overloaded a lot of the time as an electric check and check to common physical sweepers, so it finds a lot less room to be effective. Finally, it doesn't offer near the versatility of Garchomp or Landorus-T, so I don't think it should share the same ranking.

A- -> A
I don't really see what has changed in the metagame to make Raikou as effective as the likes Mega-Mane or just one rank below Thundy. CM is pretty good right now, but any offensive team is gonna pack something that can outspeed/revenge or take a hit and OHKO (or near) - the same is true of faster balance. Other Kou sets aren't really reason to rise either, as AV is weak as shit and Specs is hella exploitable. Slower balance builds can utilize the likes of CM Clefable or ZardX to just destroy pretty much any Kou set, and stall has no problems dealing with its sets either. Mega-Mane offers way more even at the cost of a mega slot with its great speed tier and Intimidate, which means it can actually function as a decent Talon check. Thundy too is significantly more versatile and effective with options like going mixed, Nasty Plot, or Prankster Twave.

B -> B+
I'll keep this short because I don't use Goth all that often, but I don't see it as being more effective than the other stall mons ranked at B. It's meager role on very specific offensive teams does not warrant a higher ranking to me, as it really is only a sort of one-off to neutralize some rather specific threats.

A- -> A
I don't feel particularly strongly about this, but to me it seems that the playstyle Serperior does the best at dismantling - slower balance builds - is on the decline. Offense and faster balance have plenty of answers in Weavile, Torn-T, and Talonflame, while stall likewise has pretty solid answers in Chansey and Venu/Amoonguss. So yeah, I don't really agree with this rise, but again I'm not particularly opinionated on the matter.

On a broader note: to me, it seems the metagame has sort of reached a static state. There hasn't really been any sort of big change since the introduction of Hoopa, and OLT allowed has allowed the post Hoopa-U metagame to be developed to the (near) fullest. Basically, what I am getting at is that the current rankings seem a very accurate representation of the metagame in my eyes. As such, there aren't too many changes I would support unless we see some major metagame shifts or something. Just my two cents.


Banned deucer.
I think that the Goth raise is obvious.

Goth stall is relatively new. It is B-ish just by virtue of Its offensive support capabilities: get rid of skarm and keldeo via thunderbolt for scizor. get rid of quagsire and hippo via grass knot for zard-x. get rid of chansey via trickscarf to run through pretty much any defensive team with spatt mons like medicham+sylveon, manaphy, char-y, etc..

The fact that goth defines consistent stall implies that it is one of the best mons in terms of role-compression. Its ability to incapacitate almost any team-threat in the tier via trickscarf or stag+thunderwave is comparable to chansey's ability to counter most of the special meta. This is mirrored in its role on offensive teams. It can directly remove certain checks (see: above), saving the trouble and space of having to include different lures and partners. There is a reason why dragmag was such a potent archetype in past generations; gothitelle expands that archetype into goth+<insert offensive mons here>.

Side note: it's interesting that a single Mon can help stall destroy offense while helping offense destroy stall... all with potentially 1 set!


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Going to add to bludz's post here by explaining why some things that were discussed didn't move :

Garchomp : The main reason this isn't S rank is that, unlike any S rank at the moment, it doesn't have one clear set which puts it in that rank, while each ste is very good they all have exploitable flaws. Phys Def is probably the most flawed despite being the most popular, it's pretty easy to switch into and gets severely worn down by Spikes and stuff. Offensive sets have a hard time switching into things, which means you often have to either stack weaknesses or heavily rely on priority to deal with stuff Phy Def Chomp is used for, it also gets very easily forced out due to Chomp's speed being pretty low by ORAS standard. It's got very common universal checks like Latios and Weavile. Overall it's a very meta-defining Pokemon, arguably the best in A+, but just falls short of S rank due to its inability to combine all its potential qualities into one set.

Togekiss : We were kinda split on this, but ultimately decided to keep it in B+ due to how much it struggles against not just offense, but balance teams that employ faster Pokemon specifically in order to deal with stuff like Togekiss, which are gaining popularity since they're more effective than the kind of super slow balance teams Togekiss destroys. The majority of teams that aren't just full stall have something to force Togekiss out once it sets up. Has a hard time doing much of anything when its offensive checks are still active, which ultimately relegates it to lategame cleaning more often than not. Overall, it's too inconsistent to really fit in A-.

Celebi : This thing has kinda been teetering on the edge of dropping for a while now due to being vulnerable to really popular stuff like Weavile and Torn-T, as well as the fatc that it needs to be kept really healthy at all times in order to handle what it's supposed to, however it's still a really good answer to various Water-types, Electric-types, and Fighting-types all of which are very popular, it has a ton of versatility with a giant list of utility moves (particularly TWave which is actually really good on it), and it has great synergy with really good Pokemon. It's not really on the same level as a lot of A- mons (particularly Serperior which is pretty noticeably better due to being far more offensively threatening and easy to use), but in the end, we decided we'd rather move stuff up from A- to A as opposed to drop A- ranks (as you can clearly see from our current slate)

Also, I'm going to to add a few secondary discussion points we recently brought up but didn't discuss to great length or make an official decision on. These aren't important as the ones bludz mentioned, but they're still things that might happen in the near future.

Mega Slowbro to A- : We refrained from moving this down for the time being but this will probably happen, it's just not as good as its regular forme since it's nowhere near as splashable or self-dependant. It can steamroll teams in theory, but in practice it ends up getting worn down by stuff like Leech Seed and Spikes and burns, and due to the lack of both lefotvers and regen it pretty much has one shot to sweep, if it's forced out after taking damage it just can't come back in. All that being said, offense is becoming more popular at the moment, and Mega Slowbro is very strong against that particular playstyle.

Rotom-W to A : It's gotten a bit better recently. The popularity of Torn-T, Talonflame and Sand are good news for it, as is the increasingly spikes-dominated metagame : it's one of the only Water-types with a Spikes immunity, making it a pain for those types of teams. Still, the flaws that made it drop in the first place are still there, it gets worn down extremely easily, has a hard time consistantly handling one Pokemon throughout the battle let alone multiple ones, and Pain Split and Rest are both pretty terrible recovery moves tbh.

Heatran to A : I realise how controversial this is, and fyi this probably isn't happening, at least not right now. But we all pretty much agreed that Heatran has gotten worse recently, it has a lot of flaws like lack of recovery, easy to wear down esp if not running protect, doesn't actually beat Fairies, non baloon sets hate Spikes, non-Scarf sets are too slow for the faster-paced metagame and vulnerable to most wallbreakers while Scarf is really easy to play around due to the lack of an actual spammable STAB and doesn't even check wallbreakers like Kyu-B and Garde that well since they both live Flash Cannons from full; all of these have become more noticeable as of late. We figured that, though it had gotten worse, it was still firmly enough in A+ rank in the first place to stay there despite unfavorable metagame trends. Still, if you feel like it deserves to drop, feel free to comment on it.

Finally, my thoughts on the current slate :

Serperior rise wouldn't be so much because of the metagame getting more favourable for it as people finally realising how brutal it can be. It simply decimates a lot of balance teams, its grtea speed putting it above a lot of the faster stuff you see on balance, and it has a really limited pool of actual anwsers. One metagame trend it actually like a lot is the huge popularity of Spikes which it absolutely loves since they severely wear down a lot of its checks. Its vulnerability to faster threats like Weavile and Torn-T is a pretty good argument against it rising, however, it does get access to Glare to severely cripple them, and the fatc that it sets up while attacking forced the opponent to be very proactive, which makes these kinds of predictions way easier

Hippowdon has been summed up pretty well by Vertex. Using Hippowdon kinda forces you into passive,defensive builds which have been getting rose recently, whereas Garchomp or Lando-T, while not beating nearly as many things, give you way more teambuilding freedom. It's not that hard to overwhelm offensively due to how much it's supposed to check, it's also quite easy to lure with stuff like GK Thundurus and Toxic Manectric. It doesn't have any move that's as spammable as say, Ferrothorn's Leech Seed or even Heatran's Toxic, and it's extremely one-dimensional, both of which which make it easy to consistently respond to. Unlike any other exclusively defensive Pokemon in A+ it's affected by Poison, the bane of most walls, which makes it pretty useuless against TSpikes teams if you don't have a hazard remover. All in all, despite how much it walls, it has way too many flaws to stay A+ imo

Empoleon probably shouldn't share the same rank as Gastrodon and Slowking. Having SR and Defog is nice and all, but beyond that it really doesn't have much worth using in its movepool, and running both Defog and Rocks on the same Pokemon isn't really a great idea in the first place, especially when said Pokemon has no reliable recovery. A lot of the stuff it's supposed to beat (Manaphy, Clefable) it really can't do much against besides Roar which can easily backfire in last mon situations, it kinda relies too much on Scald burns to threaten its checks, overall it's just not that great.

Gothitelle and Raikou I already discussed in the old thread. Goth should rise for basically keeping stall functional. Raikou should rise for its CM set and no other, it's a great answer to Electric- and Water-types which fits just as well on offensive teams as it does on balanced ones.
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Nice Job on getting a new thread back together guys but ill give my share of opinions.

HippiHippiDonDon A+ to A

Yes please.I dont think that hippowdon should be A+ anymore.It did check metagross back in the day but now as the meta shifted towards offense and not so much balance i think this should drop.Manaphy,Weavile and even Gastrodon are pretty good at beating it.Also NP thundurus is a good check to it w/o Stone edge which i dont think hippowdon uses it that much.Stuff like slowbro are also good at checking it.The meta isnt kind to it with serperior too which in any case hippowdon becomes set-up fodder.Stuff like rain being common and even charizard Y hurts his viability.
I agree with Serperior A- to A, this thing can defeat his "counters" just by changing its 4# moveslot, Chansey and Unaware non CM Clefable are screwed if it is running Taunt, while Amoongus cant put him to sleep, it can prevent run out of STABs with Giga Drain, it can get semi-reliable recovery with Synthesis, it is a decent SubSeed user IMO due to its high speed and decent Bulk, Non-Scarf Heatran dies to HP Ground variants, and there are even some Lures to M-Pidgeot, Tornadus-Therian and Talonflame running Berrys to survive Hurricane and Brave Bird and hit back with HP Rock.

However it dont deserve to be higher than A because its movepool its very Small and lacks of raw power before Leaf Storm.

Im neutral to other nominations.


The Hindenburg of Crime
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Even tho Washtom is better than before, I don't really feel that the extent of that "betterness" is enough to push it up. I wouldn't personally put it on the level of T-tar or anything like that simply because it is very one-dimensional without excelling in the same way that something like Zard-Y and Manectric do in their respective roles. Sure, it provides cool role compression, but Washtom doesn't really excell as a tank or a pivot in the same way that Mega Venusaur does, and this holds it out of A IMO.


Banned deucer.
Hippowdon A+ -> A
Well, a bunch of trends in the meta are definitely against this, with torn-t getting better, more sd excadrills on sand, grass knot / np thundy becoming way more common, and the rise of rotom-w again. It's still an awesome mon being able to check all Electrics apart from Thundy and Rotom and completely sinking their momentum and deterring them from volt switching is awesome. It's such a great mon on bulkier teams but I suppose the trends are against it so much to the point where a drop isn't unreasonable.

Raikou A- -> A
Probably the best electric check on offense, specs hits really hard, av has cool utility i guess, but the set that pushes it to A if it moves up is definitely its CM set. It's a cool wincon and sets up on so much shit and is still really unprepared for because offense kinda struggles with electrics in general, but if its subcm, you just get owned by it really.

Serperior A- -> A
yeah, best offensive grass type with its annoying speed tier of 113 is actually a total headache for builders like myself because of the builds I make. It's pretty annoying and screws over all of its counters apart from Venusaur/Amoonguss one way or another, usually totally crippling them. Weavile's annoying for it but its still a ridiculous mon at times and is one of the best cleaners in the tier. This definitely deserves to move up.

Gothitelle B -> B+
This thing is only holding Stall together with the support Mega Sableye provides to it, it's a bit of a Deo-D/Bisharp situation so this thing is actually kinda good alongside Mega Sab so yeah this deserves a rise, but the second Sab leaves the tier (hopefully soon) this thing deserves to plummet back down because its just so awful without sab supporting it.

Empoleon B -> B-
what does this even check??????????????????
Even tho Washtom is better than before, I don't really feel that the extent of that "betterness" is enough to push it up. I wouldn't personally put it on the level of T-tar or anything like that simply because it is very one-dimensional without excelling in the same way that something like Zard-Y and Manectric do in their respective roles. Sure, it provides cool role compression, but Washtom doesn't really excell as a tank or a pivot in the same way that Mega Venusaur does, and this holds it out of A IMO.
I actually feel that it may deserve a boost to A. Looking at the most recent tour stats, rotom-w is not only getting high usage (at about 12%), but also has one of the highest winrates as well at almost 62%.
17 | Rotom-Wash | 305 | 11.90% | 61.64%
The meta is becoming more forgiving to rotom and it's helping rotom really shine as a tank with Pokemon like torn rising in popularity. I agree it can be one dimensional, but it's still one of the best scouts/pivots in the meta.
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Empoleon B to B- : what the hell this thing do at OU anyway, I would easily say that Skarmory outclasses it as a defogger, having both SR and Spikes, Recovery with Roost, a better typing, two inmunities and better overall bulk if it is specially defensive.

What is Empoleon's niche? Spamming Scald??


Don't let your memes be dreams
Maybe you shouldn't nominate a pokémon to move down if you don't even know what it does, because it makes you sound like you've never used the mon before and base your nomination on theorymonning. With that being said, I also think it's time for Empoleon to move down, not because I don't have a clue what it does / checks, but because it has a pretty hard time actually using its niches. Empoleon has a nice set of moves that puts it on the same level as Gastrodon and Slowking, but the fact that it doesn't have recovery makes it really difficult to be a consistent defogger / phazer. Fast Ground Types like Lando-T and Garchomp scare it out and can prevent the defog in a 1v1 situation, Ferrothorn defeats Empoleon with Leech Seed and puts even more pressure on Empoleons side with Spikes and other hazards setters like Celebi, Mew and Heatran are able to pressure Empoleon with status and (although weak) special attacks. Having recovery would be great here because it wouldn't have to worry about the fact that common hazards setters either scare it out or wear it down with Spikes, status and other residual damage. In the end, Defog and Roar give it a cool niche over Slowking, Gastrodon, Skarmory etc. but in most other aspects you would rather have one of the other pokemon as they check more pokemon, have recovery and aren't pressured as much by most hazards setters as Empoleon is. Supporting a drop to B-
Maybe you shouldn't nominate a pokémon to move down if you don't even know what it does, because it makes you sound like you've never used the mon before and base your nomination on theorymonning. With that being said, I also think it's time for Empoleon to move down, not because I don't have a clue what it does / checks, but because it has a pretty hard time actually using its niches. Empoleon has a nice set of moves that puts it on the same level as Gastrodon and Slowking, but the fact that it doesn't have recovery makes it really difficult to be a consistent defogger / phazer. Fast Ground Types like Lando-T and Garchomp scare it out and can prevent the defog in a 1v1 situation, Ferrothorn defeats Empoleon with Leech Seed and puts even more pressure on Empoleons side with Spikes and other hazards setters like Celebi, Mew and Heatran are able to pressure Empoleon with status and (although weak) special attacks. Having recovery would be great here because it wouldn't have to worry about the fact that common hazards setters either scare it out or wear it down with Spikes, status and other residual damage. In the end, Defog and Roar give it a cool niche over Slowking, Gastrodon, Skarmory etc. but in most other aspects you would rather have one of the other pokemon as they check more pokemon, have recovery and aren't pressured as much by most hazards setters as Empoleon is. Supporting a drop to B-
I know what Empoleon does, however all its niches are better done by other things, Slowbro and Slowking both outclass it as a bulky water bar typing, being weak to pursuit and knock off sucks.

As a defogger, Skarmory is just a lot better, like i said, is bulkier, has recovery, a better typing, Spikes and Stealth Rock, phazing with Whirlwind, and in the offense, Empoleon's base 115 spa is good, however, you cant help but compare to Latios base 130 Spa, and both Latis have something over it: a better ability in Levitate, STAB Draco Meteor and Psyshock, Healing Wish and Memento, and again: RECOVER.
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Raikou A- -> A
Agree. While not as fast as Mega Manectric, Raikou has the niche of not taking up a Mega slot and being able to wield Choice Specs to hit mons harder, Assault Vest to sponge some special hits better, and Leftovers for a SubCM set. I think both Raikou and Mega Manectric should have the same ranking personally. They're both great electric types that help out with a plethora of threats. Move Raikou to A.

Gothitelle B -> B+
. Gothitelle provides EXCELLENT support for whatever team it's on. Clefable preventing your Mega Sableye from walling your opponent's team? Gothitelle. Wall in your wincon's way of sweeping your opponent's team? Gothitelle. Stall being a massive nuisance for your team? Gothitelle. Need a threat dispatched for your stall team to win the game? Gothitelle. Whatever you need Gothitelle to trap, it traps it and renders it practically useless for the rest of the game. This is a good chunk of the concept of what makes Goth Stall so threatening and annoying to face. It is a little bit on the slow side with base 65 speed, but the Choice Scarf it can trick over is useful for patching that up and crippling a Ferrothorn or Clefable in your way. Gothitelle deserves B+, but I won't be shocked to see this thing rise up to A-. Maybe even higher.
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Hippowdon really does deserves a drop tbh. Like yeah it may end up on nearly half my teams as setter, wall, electric-cockblocker, etc. but metagame trends like Rotom-w on the rise again and Serperior becoming way more common. And yes Hippo pretty much forces you to run slower, more passive builds while offense is really common. It offers valuable role compression, but it's roles can still be filled by more flexible mons like Chomp and Lando, just not all of it rolled into 1. It's still good tho. Just not as good as it was before.

Serperior is really good and deserves a rise. It can bs past most of it's checks by completely crippling them like using Knock Off and Glare, best grass-type rn, and it sets up by attacking. That is pretty much the biggest boon of any sweeper/cleaner in the tier. Torn-T and Weavile are common but Glare usually takes care of Torn-T since it switches in and Weavile wouldn't dare switch-in with 0 bulk.

Nomination of my own:

Wobbuffet to B-

Wobbuffet is a trapper, revenge killer and maker of free turns. It's true that these are great qualities in a trapper but Wobb necessitates or would love support such as Defog, Healing Wish, VolTurn, or Rapid Spin to make it's job easier and it doesn't quite kill what you always want it to kill because of the intensity of some attacks. But please take note that Defog, VolTurn, and Rapid Spin aren't even disadvantages when concerning a team, since it's recommended to have Hazard Removal and VolTurn being nice anyhow. Yeah it can't simply be slapped on any team since it isn't very splashable, you instead build around Wobb, but it's guaranteed to get 1-2 or even 3 kills per game if played right. It makes plenty of free turns as well.

Having Wobb on your team instantly makes things like Mega Medicham, Mega Aerodactyl, Talonflame, Mega Venusaur, Hippowdon, and Ferro a liability. They're either forced to attack, allowing you to easily CounterCoat back or lock them into Stealth Rock, Synthesis, or SD.

That said, Wobbuffet's distinct niche is very unique and it's really better than things like Conk, Staraptor, and MAmp. B- is a far more rank given its ability to get a kill in almost every game against offense while still providing the utility of Encore and Shadow Tag against lots of FatMons, Safeguard to protect Sweepers, and even Cutsap-DBond if you roll like that.


@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
gonna post my thoughts on the current slate

Hippowdon A+ -> A I think Hippo's effectiveness in the meta has definitely gone down. It , unfortunately, became one of those check-all answers to stuff like Bisharp Talon and Lopunny for teams, but it just gets too easily overwhelmed by this. It's so easy to simply use PuP Lopunny + Wisp Talon and destroy certain teams that depend on it as their answer to those mons. Still a great mon and supports Exca, which is great, but it's just not as effective right now as it was imo.

Raikou A- -> A This was the first nom I proposed, and so I'm a bit biased but the decrease in Hippo's and SDef Heatran's effectiveness makes Raikou very happy. Lati, Hippo and Ferro are its most common checks that can be worn down very easily with something like SD Bisharp or SubToxic Rachi. Excadrill being as popular/good as it is right now definitely puts a damper on things for Raikou, which is the only reason it's not A+ imo. But being an electric check with CM and having the ability to either wer down or take advantage of other mons wearing down stuff like Hippo and Heatran makes it a very solid pick in the meta.
Serperior A- -> A Serp is just really good lol. The last slot is so versatile You can run Glare for obvious reasons, Taunt for stall, Leech Seed for annoyance, Sub for offense, Giga for reliable STAB, etc.. People also forget that you can change up the Hidden Power and pair it with Magnezone to make a great steel breaking core for something like bulky Altaria or Garde. COol mon, better than everything in A- so it should probably rise.
Gothitelle B -> B+ Another of my noms, I think this one speaks for itself. Someone on the council said Goth is hella overrated, and while I do agree that it's not as amazing as some people say, it is certainly, along with Mega Sableye, the only reason that stall works right now. It deals with just about every stall breaker unless they are cteam sets (shed shell toge for example).
Empoleon B -> B- Haven't used it in like 9 months, used to be a good clef check but it isn't at all now. But I will refrain from saying where I think it should go because of my lack of experience.
on empoleon the sr+defog set isn't that good, it has no recovery, it's slow, it doesn't make use of its good special attack, etc etc. it does have good special bulk and roar plus the cancerous scald but being weak to hazards and having no form of reliable recovery means it has a lot of trouble standing out from other mons such as lati@s, slowbro/king, tangrowth or skarm.

I've always preferred a simple choice specs set with hydro pump, ice beam, flash cannon and grass knot which is able to check fairies (notably clefable) and blast a lot of common switch-ins like bulky grass-types (celebi, tangrowth, mega venu) and OHKO many fast electric-types after SR (bar rotom-W and AV raikou). it has many advantages over keldeo, such as higher bulk, a steel-typing and better coverage. that's the set that makes it B in my eyes... I'd say the sr+defog set is B- worthy

AD impish john

Consumed by Darkness...

A+ -> A
I never even realized Hippowdon was even A+ Rank until now lol, I definitely agree on Hippo going down to A Rank for a few reasons. Hippowdon is a great Pokemon for teams that are Semi-Stall, or Balance, since it can easily tank hits very well, but because of Hippo's terribly slow speed it forces you to have to make slower builds since it kills momentum. Unlike Garchomp and Landorus-Therian, it is able to take a HP Ice better from Raikou and Mega Manectric and wall their Electric type moves. However then metagame has adapted well with Hippo with that being Nasty Plot + Grass Knot Thundurus rising in usage, Tornadus-Therian is just as good as before, Rotom-W becoming much more common, and with all the other Water and Grass types that are pretty much on every team such as Manaphy, Keldeo, Starmie, Azumarill, Serperior, Mega Venusaur, and Celebi. Latios can use Calm Mind and then Drop a Draco doing massive damage or just Draco Meteor and right after Psyshock. Mega Sableye is also a huge pain for Hippo as it can reflect back Stealth Rocks, Toxic, and Whirlwind while a high chance of Hippo getting burned by a Will-O. Hippowdon can try to scout for what kind of Talonflame the opponent is using, but if Hippo gets burned it can't even do much to Sp Def Talonflame, and if Talon has Taunt goodluck Whirlwinding. Hippowdon is still a great Pokemon, but the metagame has been adapting against it.
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-> A

I think Raikou perfectly deserves this. The AV and Specs set are meh right now, the only reason Raikou would go up is for the CM set. As a Balanced builder, I lose almost 7 out of 10 times against this, because it is extremely hard to handle. Substitute helps vs. more balanced playstyles but Volt Switch is also a very good move with CM to maintain momentum and do a lot of damage.

-> A

I understand where everyone is coming from, but I'm really in the middle here. Both Landorus-T and Garchomp are A+, while Hippowdon doesn't have U-turn or Dragon Tail that give Lando-T and Garchomp a lot of momentum, Hippowdon has something over them: A solid, consistent recovery, which is the only reason I'm kinda eh on this. Most of all, I feel like Hippowdon mono-ground typing is a huge advantage, making it a very nice check to electrics, mainly Raikou, which is honestly becoming more and more of a threat, especially to Balanced. On the other hand, it also stops Mega Manectric, which otherwise gives Balanced such as hard time. Overall I'm in the middle on this.

-> A

Yeah I can see this happening. I don't use Serperior a lot, but I can see this somewhat happening. It's really good right now, although I do hate that it loses to Ferrothorn + Heatran (Something very common) no matter what you have. Though the SubSeed Leaf Storm HP Fire is a very good set right now, as a lot of teams' answer to Serperior is something like Draco, a Pokemon which can take one hit, or status. Overall I agree on the rise.

-> B-

I actually use this every now and then. I like it because, while it doesn't have consistent recovery, it has access to both Defog and Stealth Rock, blanket checks a lot of special pokemon, and can phaze out set up sweepers, and not to mention it has the all nice Scald. Empoleon can function as either a Stealth Rock Setter, a Defog Users, or both. If it's using either, then it can have both Scald & Flash Cannon, allowing it to check a lot of pokemons, while having its fourth move as Roar. With Roar, you can phaze out Clefable that has set up to something like +3 and cannot be stopped by Flash Cannon alone, or you can phaze out Manaphy, which you can eat up at +3 Energy Ball once, and the same with Serperior. Not to mention this thing blanket checks a lot of things such as Latios, Latias, Azumarill, Serperior, Clefable, Jirachi, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Diancie and so on. While not used a lot, this things utility is very high and I don't think this should drop.

As for other nominations, I want to agree with Celticpride on the rise of Breloom and Cobalion.
Gothitelle B- -> B+ super agree. I dont get why people say Gothitelle, a pokemon that is suffering suspect because of shadow tag, is "Super overrated", this thing alone can trap and trick - struggle every support pokemon ( clefable, klefki, heatran, chansey, slowbro, sylveon, umbreon, vaporeon ), can simply fuck other balanced pokemons ( sp def talonflame, manaphy, hippowdom, ferrothorn, gliscor, skarmory, celebi, mew) or in case your team is facing a HO team, she can simply thunderwave and fuck the other pokemon or trap - revenge kill things like keldeo and venusaur. This pokemon is mandatory in every team to me. And if you dont care at all about a possible thunderwave support, you can use calm mind and easely be +6 while the support pokemon struggle and possible sweep. to me this thing can become A-
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