Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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DennisEG

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Hippowdon A+ -> A: Yea agree with this, the only reason why hippo is so high in the ranking is because check a lot of the meta pretty decent but is a momentum killer if your not packing whirlwind/toxic to wear down set up mon with recovery. Having an incredible utility/support in the current meta is enough for A rank not more than that.

Raikou A- -> A Not agree Raikou is pretty weak to begin with, great movepool + base speed but is pretty easy to switch into it due to weak power, on top of that that's why Hippo is there to check it.

Serperior A- -> A Agree. Great speed + boosting move, this leave this snake very threatning specially if packing taunt to beat one v one fat bulky mons like chansey or unaware clef, also have access to glare which can cripple the checks to this monster like torn-t/talon, on top of that only need a bit of support like something for tran if ur running hp fire or viceversa, something for steels if ur packing hp ground.

Also supporting Celticpride's Breloom Ranking to A-, able to check lopunny and sand offense due to priority mach punch also Grass + rock coverage is pretty decent. Also spore guaranteed put to sleep at least one mon in the opponent side if lack of grass type.
 

RufflesPro

formerly Professional2341
Oh, here's a replay of how effective CM Raikou in the meta is:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-285668963

CM Raikou just feasts on bulky offensive / balanced builds like the one above, being able to set up on a Pokemon and then actually sweep. Sure, Hippowdon flat checks it, but the recent rise in Toxic on Raikou shows that Raikou has adapted to Hippowdon. It also helps that Raikou completely sets up on Klefki, which is getting more and more used.
 
Ill comment on Hippo Serp and Raikou Cause those are the three i face/use most.

Hippo
: I'm very inclined on dropping because while it does blanket check a lot of the top tier threats like Scizor, Lop and Excadrill, it finds its gives my opponent free turns to bring in Serp, Keldeo and Manaphy. Its typing, while not weak to many physical attackers, doesn't do it any favors. It relies mostly on its bulk to check said mons, and does not offer many resistances, meaning it does offer a defensive wall, but not too much synergy to a core. I know 4mss is a term people throw around but Hippo really has a case going for it. EQ and Slack off is quite obvious so you are not taunt bait and have recovery, then the tricky part comes in. Rocks are nice to set up on all the attackers that are forced out because they can't break Hippo, toxic is good for wearing down the opponent, Whirlwind so you don't get set up on the few physical attackers that can be troublesome to Hippo like Azu and Heracross, and Stone Edge because without it Birds wall you and that opens up a whole other group of pokemon that can take advantage of Hippo. Hippo is still annoying to face and the pokemon it does wall it walls hard, but i A+ is for pokemon that i actively find myself preparing for, and hippo just isn't one of them IMO.

Serp: I can support a rise for this. I personally never find myself using grass types (mostly cause there aren't that many) but serp is just a threat to face. Everyone always talks about how Serp hits so weak on the first hit, but no good player is gonna be attacking a full health mon with it, they're gonna bring it on a weak mon they know can be Ko'd and snowball from there. Hidden power is an issue, but its still a guessing game about which one and it can screw you over. glare is also a nice tool to have seeing AV Torn being so popular and it being most teams switch in.

Raikou: The CM sets that are now gaining some traction really help Raikou out. I found myself using Raikou less and less because Specs is so prediction reliant if the opponent has a ground type that isn't 4x weak to HP Ice, and AV was good at checking some special attackers once or twice in a match, but did not hit hard enough and i found myself being set up on. CM sets (sub or Offensive) really give raikou the power of specs without being locked into a move. The 115 Speed tier always helps to outspeed the normal speed tier. I find raikou a lot like Keldeo where it does not sweep teams, but is still not expected by teams and really dent teams because of how underrated they are. Im on the fence with a raise for this cat right here, but it isn't out of the question.
 
I guess the hiatus is over, eh? I'm back and so is the Viability Thread (thank you bludz!) Time to get cracking.

Hippowdon A+ -> A

I love this thing. Hippowdon is one of the most reliable walls I've been grateful to ever have the ability to breed. Access to Stealth Rock, phasing, and reliable recovery is what makes it the monster it is. The problem with it, unfortunately, is that it's extremely passive, using Earthquake and the occasional Ice Fang (just in case Garchomp and Gliscor are THAT much of a hassle) to do any true damage unless you run Toxic over Stealth Rock. To make things worse, Hippowdon's Mono Ground-Typing gives is common weaknesses to Water, Grass, and Ice (though with its bulk, Hidden Power is nothing to it).

That's the general sum-up, but where in the meta does this leave the Hungry Hungry Hippo? Looking at what is going around in the meta, what does Hippowdon truly stop dead in its tracks? The first thing that comes to mind for me is a group of Pokemon: Set-Up Sweepers. Thanks to Whirlwind, Hippowdon can usually stop a Pokemon from setting up and heal off any possible damage afterwards. The problem is that there are some that can hit it for Super-Effective damage; Manaphy needs not worry about it thanks to a +3 Scald, Excadrill with Air Balloon not only keeps away from Earthquake but turns the tables with Sandstorm on the field, and Azumarill's bulk with Belly Drum is just scary sometimes. This isn't going through the other Pokemon that can sit there and threaten it like Charizard-X (remember that it doesn't HAVE to Mega-Evolve to boost and can play mind games to survive), Thundurus (because despite what I said about Hidden Power barely scratching it, a +2 one is a different story), and ESPECIALLY Serperior. Each of these Pokemon listed typically find themselves on most teams, giving Hippowdon pressure to keep in the battle. To me, Hippowdon is more of a "blanket check" rather than a specific check to most Pokemon; whereas some Pokemon can be hard checks or even counters to an extremely specific group of Pokemon, this one covers a more broad area and finds itself hurt against some of the rising stars and veterans. It's definitely not as effective as it once was, but it still works as one of the most memorable. This is also not considering the fact that the topping of TankChomp and Landorus-T doesn't do any favors and one doesn't have to prepare very much for Hippowdon, making the drop needed. I feel bad for it, since Hippowdon is a personal favorite, but the time has come.

Raikou A- -> A

The first of the Legendary Beast Trio is definitely one of the finest Electric-Types to be conceived, with good Speed and an equal amount of Special Attack to work off of--not to mention a decent bit of Special Bulk.

The two sets I've personally seen go around are the Choice Specs set and the Calm Mind set. Both have their ups and downs, but generally have a simple goal. Choice Specs is meant to punch holes in the opposition and also act as a quick pivot with Volt Switch when push comes to shove, while Calm Mind is meant for the beast wanting to take advantage of the prey, making it more powerful and bulkier with each boost. The biggest comparisons depend on the sets. Choice Specs is usually compared to Mega Manectric, which definitely gives stiff competition thanks to its higher Speed and naturally higher Special Attack. Manectric's power isn't as high as Choice Specs but it comes with three pros against Raikou: Intimidate, Flamethrower/Overheat, and more Speed...all while not being locked on one move. Raikou's claim to fame is that he doesn't take up a Mega-Evolution, giving more leeway when teambuilding, and that it's slightly more powerful with Specs. Calm Mind's competition comes from multiple Pokemon: Clefable, Keldeo, and the saddest of all, Suicune. These Pokemon have "arguably" better typings to take advantage of the meta much more than Raikou, while also having other qualities that make them more wanted; Clefable has reliable recovery and Magic Guard, making it near-unbreakable, Keldeo has a STAB combination that only Jellicent can laugh at, and Suicune, with Keldeo, have a way to make their opponent weaker: Scald (sure Clefable has Fire Blast, but...that's 10% compared to Scald's 30%). Suicune also has that weird ResTalk set some people use and I never got it, so...whatever. That's a note, I guess.

The biggest question now is such: Is Raikou effective in this meta, more then before, or is it still about the same? I'd argue that Raikou isn't quite ready for the rise just yet--he's close, though. With Pokemon like Ferrothorn out there, it's difficult to get a holding when there is another Electric-Type sweeper that can take it down in one fell swoop. Sorry Raikou, but this isn't your time just yet.

Serperior A- -> A

The demon within this Pokemon, I swear. I wanted this to really be a thing, but...damn. We all know the good points, so I'll just cut to the chase.

Serperior is a bit more difficult to use than some people really like to mention. You definitely can't bring it in against anything healthy...actually, you can't switch Serperior into anything thanks to its frailty. Serperior takes advantage of weakened Pokemon that it can easily outspeed and revenge kill for a quick, easy, and painless +2. Seeing Serperior on a team gives away some of the strategy: your opponent will want to weaken you in order to open a sweep up later. Give caution. It can still be difficult when Serperior's One-Dimensional movepool still has a trick or two up its sleeve. The Hidden Power Type will be a mystery until it's revealed (though most will vouch for Fire), meaning you don't know what to switch in on it yet. Heatran? Ferrothorn/Scizor? Skarmory? Dragonite? This is also not to mention that Serperior has access to Glare, giving it a way to cripple any Pokemon that might switch into it...except Ferrothorn with its access to Gyro Ball. I find myself preparing for it a bit more than before, which would easily constitute a rise on its own, but I'm still on the fence on this one.

Gothitelle B -> B+

I remember when Shadow Tag Gothitelle in Gen 5 could only be Male and there were so many Nicki Minaj/transsexual jokes about it, but...the scary part is that this is a real threat.

Trapping in itself isn't a very fond-of tactic unless you play stall, which is where Gothitelle's strength comes in. Her and Mega Sableye are basically the life support of Stall right now. With that said, does it really constitute a rise? Is it really THAT important of a Pokemon when, in reality, Gothitelle relies on Mega Sableye being around in order to function and that Gothitelle removes specific threats to a stall team? Me, personally? I don't think so. Gothitelle is definitely a threat, but one that can be played around. A smart player can normally detect a Gothitelle switch-in and respond with their own switch-in or VoltTurn followed by a check or counter finding its way in. Speaking of U-Turn, she seems to not particularly enjoy this move, which is odd considering that other trappers don't care for it (MAYBE except Wobbuffet, but whatever coming in is getting hit by Counter anyways). Gothitelle is also pretty slow for the average trapper (Disclaimer: Wobbuffet is NOT the average trapper), getting outsped by other Pokemon. She doesn't even get much Physical Bulk to tank many hits there. Yes, one can argue that she chooses her switch-ins, but again: they can be predicted with a bit of clever thinking. This isn't really a problem with Gothitelle, though; I have played around Magnezones with Choice Band Scizor using U-Turn to avoid the trap and get out on their switch. The same, however, can be said for the trapper. Proper prediction can lead to game-changing plays that lead to victory...or defeat, but this isn't really a pro or con for Gothitelle, but more like a cautionary note if anything. I suppose I'll bring up the fact that Gothitelle technically has no counters since she cherry picks them already, but this is not a Pokemon to normally prepare for, since many teams usually have multiple Pokemon that can remove it from the battle. If it rises, so be it, as the sustaining of an entire playstyle is an impressive feat, but I don't think the teen phase Pokemon is ready yet.

Empoleon B -> B-

What is Empoleon doing in this meta? In all honesty, what can it do? Its typing leaves it open to Electric, Fighting, and Ground-Type attacks, all common in this meta, while its resists don't make up for much. Having a 4x Ice Resist and 2x Rock Resist are nice, though, and stopping Scizor in its tracks is always hilarious, but...that can't be it. To me, Empoleon's claim to fame is not only its typing, giving it ways to stop a few commonfolk around, but also access to Stealth Rock through Tutor, Scald through TM, and Defog through transfer, meaning it can play the role of a Specially Defensive Skarmory without any healing whatsoever. Wait, you wanting a healing move? Tough luck, kiddo. Being on the same rank as other, more reliable Bulky Water-Types like Gastrodon and Quagsire is pretty insulting (and I'll throw Slowking in there, too) since these three check multiple Pokemon, can use Scald to weaken Physical Attackers, AND have access to Recover/Slack Off, the move every wall wants. One can argue that Skarmory has Defog and Stealth Rock, too. Sure, but Skarmory can heal thanks to Roost, which gives it staying power in comparison to the penguin. Let this one drop.
 
Mega Zam is trash A+ -> A-

The key to understanding why Zam is incredibly overrated is by accepting the fact that any form of priority beats it. Some may say this is not a good way to rank pokemon, but i disagree. It loses to Bisharp, loses to Medicham, talon, pretty much anything +1 since its frail as shit. Just because its speed is really big!1111!11 doesnt mean it should be anywhere above where it belongs, and yes it does hit hard but if peoples teams are actually well made they shouldnt let megazam take out more than one pokemon on their team at max. There is nothing else to explain, its common sense.

Oh and normal Zam to B- for same reasons as above.
 
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EraiMHFU

formerly Erai14
Mega Zam is trash A+ -> A-

The key to understanding why Zam is incredibly overrated is by accepting the fact that any form of priority beats it. Some may say this is not a good way to rank pokemon, but i disagree. It loses to Bisharp, loses to Medicham, talon, pretty much anything +1 since its frail as shit. Just because its speed is really big!1111!11 doesnt mean it should be anywhere above where it belongs, and yes it does hit hard but if peoples teams are actually well made they shouldnt let megazam take out more than one pokemon on their team at max. There is nothing else to explain, its common sense.

Oh and normal Zam to B- for same reasons as above.

Mega Zam is not at A+ only because of its speed, it has a massive 175 base SpA and Trace lets it copy abilities like: Regenerator, Sand Rush, Analytic, Sheer Force, Magic Guard, Unaware and a lot more of useful things, it puts pressure on offense thanks to its speed and fatter builds have trouble facing its coverage and massive SpA.

Because you had not succes with a mon it doesnt mean is bad!
 
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Let me explain further.

I believe people took a look at Zams high stats and put him in A+ without even questioning themselves.

We must realize, the pros of Zam are not as large as you all think, and the Cons are not as minimal.
Zam is good, thats why i want to keep it in A-, but its definitly not the most versatile or useful in the A+ tier.
 

p2

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"its frail drop it a shit ton of subranks"

that's not how it works. mega alakazam is an incredible mon in ou for a bunch of reasons. its stupidly high special attack and speed along with trace make it one of the most threatening pokemon to offensive builds, including weather teams which is a godsend for offense, in the tier. its also great against defensive builds because the common cores you find on there pretty much keel over to it because its difficult to switch into and its unresisted coverage hits ridiculously hard. you can say shit that isn't even true when bisharp is never switching into mega zam and the fact that the 4th moveslot can be anything, you're screwed against substitute variants because of how heavily dependent bisharp is on sucker punch to beat it. mega zam doesnt even lose to medicham, all that medicham can do is revenge kill with double priority and that plan goes to shit if its substitute. its frail, but really, if you cant see how its amazing offenses just compensate for that completely, then i have strong doubts you've even used it or seen a wall played one. keep it in a+

edit: lol
 
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You simply overestimate how many teams its useful against.

You are only proving my point about people saying "0h mi godd1!11 look at its statZZz"
thats not how things should work, you must broaden your horizons my friend.
 

Punchshroom

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If you actually think critically my argument makes perfect sense.
If I think critically your argument can apply to even Ubers-worthy attackers like Blaziken, Deoxys, Mewtwo, etc., which means your argument starts to fall apart from there. And dropping Alakazam all the way from A- to B- seems pretty harsh don't you think?

The biggest reason for Alakazam (and its Mega's) high ranking is that aside from their high offensive presence thanks to great Special Attack, Speed, and effective neutral coverage which can mess with a good deal of defensive cores, they also safeguard offensive teams from being steamrolled by certain offensive threats. Focus Sash Alakazam basically acts as a one-off check against nearly any setup sweeper in the tier, with Thunder Wave cripping any that it cannot OHKO. MegaZam offers more power, a better Speed tier, and the ability to potentially countersweep weather offense in exchange for using up the Mega slot and not revenging every Speed-boosted sweeper (although it is still fast enough to outrun +1 Spe Jolly Mega Gyarados and Mega Altaria). Even if they don't get used for those particular roles, their Speed and power means they are rarely deadweight; they're still hard-hitting mons in their own right.

You are only proving my point about people saying "0h mi godd1!11 look at its statZZz"
thats not how things should work, you must broaden your horizons my friend.
Lol fleggum's argument didn't consist of just Zam's and MegaZam's stats (Clefable and Talonflame's high ranking shut down that argument long ago anyway); I've already made the aforementioned points about what Zam offers for teams. You should be the one to broaden your horizons.
 
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If I think critically your argument can apply to even Ubers-worthy attackers like Blaziken, Deoxys, Mewtwo, etc., which means your argument starts to fall apart from there. And dropping Alakazam all the way from A- to B- seems pretty harsh don't you think?

The biggest reason for Alakazam (and its Mega's) high ranking is that aside from their high offensive presence thanks to great Special Attack, Speed, and effective neutral coverage which can mess with a good deal of defensive cores, they also safeguard offensive teams from being steamrolled by certain offensive threats. Focus Sash Alakazam basically acts as a one-off check against nearly any setup sweeper in the tier, with Thunder Wave cripping any that it cannot OHKO. MegaZam offers more power, a better Speed tier, and the ability to potentially countersweep weather offense in exchange for using up the Mega slot and not revenging every Speed-boosted sweeper (although it is still fast enough to outrun +1 Spe Jolly Mega Gyarados and Mega Altaria).


Lol fleggum's argument didn't consist of just Zam's and MegaZam's stats (Clefable and Talonflame's high ranking shut down that argument long ago anyway); I've already made the aforementioned points about what Zam offers for teams. You should be the one to broaden your horizons.
You seem to forget a little thing that Mega Medi, Lopunny, bisharp, DD Dragonite, Gyra, Weavile, basically a shit ton of pokemon that can shut down megazam by literally just being alive most of these being able to 2OHKO (medi can easily with priority, Bisharp can if its smart etc. etc.)

Again, MegaZam serves uses, if i didnt think it had any worth i wouldnt be keeping it in A-, and compared to thinks like Blaziken, Deox, M2, it just comes back to my idea of thinking.

Next time you're taking a shit on the toilet ponder about the differences between The ubers pokemon you mentioned and MegaZam, then realize why you're wrong.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
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Also Sub exists

EDIT: badged users still need to follow the rules so let me expand on why it's A+ instead of porting a snarky one liner. Mega Zam is as effective as it is because it has the potential to beat offense and defense depending on its last slot. Encore and Calm Mind can be difficult for bulkier teams to deal with, while Substitute prevents it from being revenge killed by stuff like Bisharp or Talon. One thing to note though, not all of those priority moves can even kill it from full. I know for a fact banded jet from Azu doesn't, Talon needs to be offensive to OHKO, Lopunny would need to constantly switch out to regain Fake Out (though I guess this is part of why people run QA on that thing), and Mega Scizor's BP doesn't OHKO either. So while it, like many Pokemon is vulnerable to priority, it's not as bad as you make it seem, and its general effectiveness puts it higher than things like Celebi in A-.
 
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EraiMHFU

formerly Erai14
You seem to forget a little thing that Mega Medi, Lopunny, bisharp, DD Dragonite, Gyra, Weavile, basically a shit ton of pokemon that can shut down megazam by literally just being alive most of these being able to 2OHKO (medi can easily with priority, Bisharp can if its smart etc. etc.)

Again, MegaZam serves uses, if i didnt think it had any worth i wouldnt be keeping it in A-, and compared to thinks like Blaziken, Deox, M2, it just comes back to my idea of thinking.

Next time you're taking a shit on the toilet ponder about the differences between The ubers pokemon you mentioned and MegaZam, then realize why you're wrong.
Bisharp is screwed against sub variants:
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 880-1036 (324.7 - 382.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lopunny is slower:
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 380-450 (140.2 - 166%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and trace copies multiscale!
 

Punchshroom

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Next time you're taking a shit on the toilet ponder about the differences between The ubers pokemon you mentioned and MegaZam, then realize why you're wrong.
Lol this guy; you also need to take a step back and acknowledge the asinine argument you used against Mega Zam here:

You seem to forget a little thing that Mega Medi, Lopunny, bisharp, DD Dragonite, Gyra, Weavile, basically a shit ton of pokemon that can shut down megazam by literally just being alive most of these being able to 2OHKO (medi can easily with priority, Bisharp can if its smart etc. etc.)
You also seem to forget a little thing about priority being one of the only things truly holding Mega Zam back. Yes, this Pokemon has a weakness in priority (every Pokemon has a weakness, goddamn), though it can still be circumvented with Substitute as Mega Zam forces a mon out by, I dunno... outspeeding pretty much all of the unboosted tier and even the weather sweepers. Mega Alakazam can get away with landing a powerful hit on almost everything before it takes a hit itself.

You know what is also vulnerable to priority and isn't a speed demon? Hoopa-U. I don't see you nomming that down, unless you acknowledge that Hoopa-U's strengths significantly outweigh its flaws, which is much the case for MegaZam as well.
 
You can literally whisper into your opponents ear (Who is using MegaZam) "Fake out + Bp" and MegaZam falls.

The truth is out their friends, i hope you all open your eyes are realize MegaZam is incredibly overrated and belongs in A- Tier as it is too frail, overrated in its power, and literally gets SHIT on by so many pokes with priority (which is like a ton of OU lOl)

I have provided my argument and i see nothing tangible that proves what i have said wrong, gg.
 

Martin

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This is true, in fact im glad someone posted something decently intelligent.

However, my other problems said still stands, and remember im not moving it to C or anything, just A-
What are you talking about? So far every single post against it has been completely logical and used common sense. The fact of the matter is that it completely shuts down offense (iirc around 80% of common mons on offense just lose to this thing), rips parts of balance a new one and, unlike all the other offense-rippers, doesn't get annihilated by weather 'mons. This things pros outweigh its cons by a factor of around 3, and its versatility is nothing to scoff at (for example, on team preview you have to account for 3-4 sets before you even consider alternative moves), and saying its bad because its weak to priority can be applied to literally every pokemon in the game with the exception of shit like Talonflame. You have missed what Alakazam's entire role on a team is in your post, and quite frankly it does it better than most other 'mons in said role. If being frail is a reason a Pokemon sucks then I guess that means that Mega Lucario and Shaymin-S should also be in B+ because they die to Mach Punch and Ice Shard, respectively. Your entire logic falls apart when you consider that, like with any 'mon, you need to actually use a bit of common sense when using it - not to mention that this game isn't Alakazam v.s. the entirity of OU, but rather Alakazam+5 teammates v.s. the rest of OU, which is the last nail in your logic's coffin tbch. All of its weakesses are covered by teammates much more easily than the majority of the metagame when you consider just how versatile it is, and it has options to alleviate certain weaknesses it faces with moves like Sub, Encore, Taunt and T-Wave which further improve its team's ability to handle its weaknesses.
 

bludz

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Let me explain further.

I believe people took a look at Zams high stats and put him in A+ without even questioning themselves.

We must realize, the pros of Zam are not as large as you all think, and the Cons are not as minimal.
Zam is good, thats why i want to keep it in A-, but its definitly not the most versatile or useful in the A+ tier.
This is wrong.

Back in like January, Mega Alakazam was in B+ and regular Alakazam was in like C+. Both steadily rose due to increasing effectiveness in the metagame.

While they are both frail, the combination of stats, movepool and abilities make them very effective in the metagame. It is true that priority hampers a sweep, however Zam boasts the ability to reliably check weather based sweepers which many priority users (barring Bisharp and I guess Azu) cannot do as well. There is also the fact that Bisharp doesn't beat Encore Mega Zam; it's a 5050 because Encore allows for easy survival on a Sucker Punch, and while Knock Off could KO it, there's also the possibility of using Focus Blast.

On top of that, Alakazam is an amazing pokemon on balanced. For a long time balance teams were very slow, but with the amount of power that offense packs these days, being outsped all the time is simply difficult to win with. Good balance these days can't be too passive. Mega Zam + a solid backbone (that has no problems taking on priority attacks) and hazard stacking is a very popular archetype. It's great with regular Alakazam too, which has solid utility with a Focus Sash and is quite strong with LO.

Mega Alakazam is not a pokemon you simply throw onto your HO team like Lopunny and assume it's going to decimate offense. It has more power against opposing balance teams, utility moves like Taunt, Encore and Substitute that help it ease prediction or stallbreak, and can trace abilities such as Landorus-T's Intimidate (allowing it to much more easily survive a hit) that allow it to perform its job better in situations you might not think of.

I can see a legitimate argument for it to drop to A rank, but A- is too low in my opinion.

EDIT: BTW, priority is a problem for a lot of offensive pokes. But with Tank Chomp (a great partner for Zam) on so many teams, priority cannot always be spammed willy nilly. You can say this is an attribute of Tank Chomp and not Zam, but pokemon's viabilities cannot be considered standalone - we talk about a pokemon's place in the metagame in reference to other pokemon. For example, when we discuss Zard Y or Keldeo, pursuit trapping team support is surely in the conversation.
 
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This is wrong.

Back in like January, Mega Alakazam was in B+ and regular Alakazam was in like C+. Both steadily rose due to increasing effectiveness in the metagame.

While they are both frail, the combination of stats, movepool and abilities make them very effective in the metagame. It is true that priority hampers a sweep, however Zam boasts the ability to reliably check weather based sweepers which many priority users (barring Bisharp and I guess Azu) cannot do as well. There is also the fact that Bisharp doesn't beat Encore Mega Zam; it's a 5050 because Encore allows for easy survival on a Sucker Punch, and while Knock Off could KO it, there's also the possibility of using Focus Blast.

On top of that, Alakazam is an amazing pokemon on balanced. For a long time balance teams were very slow, but with the amount of power that offense packs these days, being outsped all the time is simply difficult to win with. Good balance these days can't be too passive. Mega Zam + a solid backbone (that has no problems taking on priority attacks) and hazard stacking is a very popular archetype. It's great with regular Alakazam too, which has solid utility with a Focus Sash and is quite strong with LO.

Mega Alakazam is not a pokemon you simply throw onto your HO team like Lopunny and assume it's going to decimate offense. It has more power against opposing balance teams, utility moves like Taunt, Encore and Substitute that help it ease prediction or stallbreak, and can trace abilities such as Landorus-T's Intimidate (allowing it to much more easily survive a hit) that allow it to perform its job better in situations you might not think of.

I can see a legitimate argument for it to drop to A rank, but A- is too low in my opinion.
Again, nobody is arguing that MegaZam isnt effective in the metagame.

My main argument here is that the situations and teams MegaZam does good against are overrated and made to seem larger than they actually are.

One of the main problems is to assume that Balance is some sort of heavily used teamstyle, went in reality it is used less than things such as HO and Stall. Simply put, HO shits on MegaZam.

Sub works but we are again assuming the opponent in this situation is not using one the heavily abundant pokemon with some sort of priority, not to mention more niche occasions where clef can begin setting up.

The main thing here is that people are underestimating just how many teams carry some sort of priority.

MegaZam can take 1 pokemon, and that can be good and helpful, but if anyone has 2 or more pokemon taken by MegaZam at some point, they might as well quit the game entirely.

I can understand A Tier in fact its very clear i am underestimating MegaZam but i can see no world where MegaZam could be A+ especially in this meta. Simple mix up sets destroy MegaZam, sure they might not be the best overall but simple changes such as Scarf Weavile DUNK MegaZam.

It has its uses, and what it does it does well, but the amount of pokemon that simply beat it or force a switch is huge, far too many to grant it an A Tier rank imo.
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
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Also, MZam is actually surprisingly difficult to switch into outside of like Scizor, Sableye, Chansey and Klefki, the former 2 getting screwed over by HP Fire and Dazzling Gleam respectively, which you can actually get away with running since MZam pretty much has a free moveslot where it can run whatever its team prefers. It is effective against everything from HO to fat balance, only really struggling vs stall, and though it is reliant on Focus Blast to hit Steels, it's still going to be able to hit them the majority of the time, and besides, most Steels lack reliable recovery and are quite easily worn down to the point where Shadow Ball 2HKOs.

"Vulnerable to priority" isn't really a valid argument when priority is very, very easy to switch out of, and most prio users are easily worn down by stuff like Tankchomp and Ferrothorn anyway. The same applies to Choice Scarfers, in fact pretty much any situation where MZam has to switch out is really no big deal for its user due to how easy its checks and counters are to switch into. To assume that over half of an average HO team will carry priority is downright silly when HO still needs a rock setter, a wallbreaker, usually some kind of pivot or glue, and a hazard remover assuming the team runs Talonflame and/or Weavile which you appear to be; all of which will not carry priority, outside of a couple of wallbreakers out of a possible 10 or so. MZam needs very little support, and the support it does need or enjoy are pretty much givens on most teams. Something that is both this hard to counter and this hard to force out without forfeiting momentum deserves to be A+.

Can we move on now?
 
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Yea we can move on.

Though i still disagree with everyone who said MegaZam should stay A+ Tier i can at least see and respect the arguments given (By most lol)
Parting words, i think priority should be taken as a valid argument as its a staple and its on nearly every OU team and with many priority pokemon switching out leads to an OHKO (depends on Zam's partners). And please, do not get my words twisted, i think MegaZam is good and it can work but i personally do not think it deserves A+
 
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Vertex

my beautiful dark twisted curry
dude are you really going to say the exact same thing every time? the only thing you've said in your last posts is priority lol. hey manaphy gets outsped! let's drop it! mega alakazam has wide coverage requiring limited support to function on various playstyles and is a great asset to balance teams as it can keep offense in check with the combination of utility in hazards your teammates bring. offense megazam teams are really good too. a free moveslot is nice so don't give me any of your 4mss arguments.

also just a pro tip that you should check yourself before you talk. you said hyper offense shits on zam which is just lol i don't see that. and you said no one uses megazam which obviously means your just another low ladder player trying to act like a smartass.

sorry if this came out harsh. no disrespect to you or anything but you've been showing both poor attitude and arguments. megazam isn't dropping

we can move on :0
 
dude are you really going to say the exact same thing every time? the only thing you've said in your last posts is priority lol. hey manaphy gets outsped! let's drop it! mega alakazam has wide coverage requiring limited support to function on various playstyles and is a great asset to balance teams as it can keep offense in check with the combination of utility in hazards your teammates bring. offense megazam teams are really good too. a free moveslot is nice so don't give me any of your 4mss arguments.

also just a pro tip that you should check yourself before you talk. you said hyper offense shits on zam which is just lol i don't see that. and you said no one uses megazam which obviously means your just another low ladder player trying to act like a smartass.

sorry if this came out harsh. no disrespect to you or anything but you've been showing both poor attitude and arguments. megazam isn't dropping

we can move on :0
Extremely foolish post and its quite clear you did not connect the very obvious dots.

The argument wasnt about priority, its about how Priority effects MegaZam and how it almost completely nullifies it. Ive checked myself plenty of times, yes i AM extremely sexy.

End of discussion since i see nothing will change.
 
Finishing the Mega-Zam issue, his priority weakness is the reason he's not on S rank, if he had a Sp. Att. move similar to Extreme Speed it will become S rank or it'll rush to Ubers.



Nominating Honchkrow from D to C-

Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 76 Atk / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Dark Pulse
- Heat Wave/Superpower

This mixed set allows Honchkrow to hit most common Flying checks with Dark Pulse meanwhile it's still a decent Brave Bird spammer. Moxie+Sucker Punch combination is always terrifying and can work as win-condition. Heat Wave sets down Ferro, Skarmory, and M-Scizor if it switchs in, meanwhile Superpower OHKOs T-Tar and deals massive damage to Heatran. Ground and Psychic inmunnity can help survivability, although 100/52/52 defenses is quite bad. It's also weak to recoil dmg but still is a very underrated mon who deserves a higher rank.

Calcs:

180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%) Avoiding Rocky helmet dmg
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 173-204 (41.1 - 48.5%)
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 181-214 (47.3 - 56%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 181-214 (47.3 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 204-242 (61 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Skarmory: 229-270 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 354-421 (89.8 - 106.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (OHKO after SR)

Btw this set is not mine, just in case.
 
Finishing the Mega-Zam issue, his priority weakness is the reason he's not on S rank, if he had a Sp. Att. move similar to Extreme Speed it will become S rank or it'll rush to Ubers.



Nominating Honchkrow from D to C-

Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 76 Atk / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Dark Pulse
- Heat Wave/Superpower

This mixed set allows Honchkrow to hit most common Flying checks with Dark Pulse meanwhile it's still a decent Brave Bird spammer. Moxie+Sucker Punch combination is always terrifying and can work as win-condition. Heat Wave sets down Ferro, Skarmory, and M-Scizor if it switchs in, meanwhile Superpower OHKOs T-Tar and deals massive damage to Heatran. Ground and Psychic inmunnity can help survivability, although 100/52/52 defenses is quite bad. It's also weak to recoil dmg but still is a very underrated mon who deserves a higher rank.

Calcs:

180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%) Avoiding Rocky helmet dmg
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 173-204 (41.1 - 48.5%)
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 181-214 (47.3 - 56%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 181-214 (47.3 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 204-242 (61 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Skarmory: 229-270 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
180+ SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 354-421 (89.8 - 106.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (OHKO after SR)

Btw this set is not mine, just in case.
I agree that Honchkrow is a Pokemon worrh looking at, but I would never pass down Pursuit+Moxie. A special lure set sounds cool and all, but I really feel like the Pursuit+Moxie combo is one of the things that make Honchkrow good, of course alongside Sucker Punch
 
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