Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[Taliheim]

You should also keep in mind that in the same way CharY builds run a Pursuiter, Lati@s builds tend to run a Dark-type answer, usually Keldeo, especially if the Lati is used for their resistances and defenses rather than offense, which is Latias 90% of the time. And in the same way CharY can bait out Latias to get trapped, Latias can bait out the trappers to get momentum-abused by said Dark-type answer.

I actually don't find Healing Wish to be a necessity on Latias. It might just be my playstyle, but I find Healing Wish as more of a nice-to-have, to be run either as filler or if your team truly only has one set win condition. In all, I find myself using Latias when I select a Lati as my defogger not for offensive presence, but for the ability to switch in to certain types or attacks, as more of a defensive backbone. Thing is, Latias still hits decently hard off of somewhat-invested base 110 SpAtk and LO, so I only find myself using Latios > Latias for the defensive aspect if my team really needs crucial KO's that Latias can't get.

As for momentum, Latias can be a great partner in chain-switching; if Latias is on a momentum team like Volturn, you only need one or two chain-switches to get it going again, while non-momentum teams heavily appreciate the chip damage the chain-switching is providing from Rocks - their own sort of pseuso momentum generator.

 

[Inflikted]

I don't have a strong opinion on latias' placement, but reading it "checks electrics" bugs me a bit. Take a look to the prominent electric types of the tier:
thundurus 2hkos after rocks with HP ice if life orb and viably runs knock off;
AV raikou doesn't even lose 1v1 against 0 hp life orb latias (and is 72 hp still a thing?) assuming both mons are at full, because shadow ball does 42-50 , while latias cannot ohko back and has a solid chance to die to 2 shadow ball + 1 LO recoil;
OK it beats Mega Manectric 1v1 but Manectric will just volt switch away (just as raikou can do if it cannot afford to take damage) to something that can take a hit from latias, meaning the only possible way for the latias user to really gain momentum / preventing the opponent to gain momentum is going to a ground type on the volt switch I guess? Most of them fear hp ice though, so it had better be one of hippo / gastrodon / seismitoad (the actual electric stops...) in that case

So latias can be a situational backup check to electrics at best: you can't slap it on a team and call them covered. It does have very valuable niches in defog, decent offensive presence, and water resist; the role of electric check is either something it performs poorly, or something it doesn't do at all.

Sry for random capitalization / subpar grammar, i'm on mobile rn

 

[Freeroamer]

You should also keep in mind that in the same way CharY builds run a Pursuiter, Lati@s builds tend to run a Dark-type answer, usually Keldeo, especially if the Lati is used for their resistances and defenses rather than offense, which is Latias 90% of the time. And in the same way CharY can bait out Latias to get trapped, Latias can bait out the trappers to get momentum-abused by said Dark-type answer.

I actually don't find Healing Wish to be a necessity on Latias. It might just be my playstyle, but I find Healing Wish as more of a nice-to-have, to be run either as filler or if your team truly only has one set win condition. In all, I find myself using Latias when I select a Lati as my defogger not for offensive presence, but for the ability to switch in to certain types or attacks, as more of a defensive backbone. Thing is, Latias still hits decently hard off of somewhat-invested base 110 SpAtk and LO, so I only find myself using Latios > Latias for the defensive aspect if my team really needs crucial KO's that Latias can't get.

As for momentum, Latias can be a great partner in chain-switching; if Latias is on a momentum team like Volturn, you only need one or two chain-switches to get it going again, while non-momentum teams heavily appreciate the chip damage the chain-switching is providing from Rocks - their own sort of pseuso momentum generator.

I have to say I actually really disagree, the only reason I would use Latias right now is Healing Wish. I find it a really mediocre mon when compared to Latios unless it's running Healing Wish or a Mega set. It's only notable advantages are the extra bulk which won't come into play nearly as often as Latios' extra power, Healing Wish and its ability to be a more effective lure which is kinda counterproductive because now you can only fit one of Defog / Roost / Healing Wish. I pretty much never use this mon anymore given that I currently think Latios is the most splashable mon in the tier teambuilding wise and in most cases, Latias will be inferior to it.

Also agree with the Heatran drop that was brought up a few pages ago, except it should've happened weeks ago. Heatran hasn't been an A+ Pokemon for a while now, in terms of SR it faces huge competition from the 3 bulky grounds which usually offer better role compression in terms of the threats they check, Scarf is nifty but not splashable/good enough to be A+, stallbreaker is still good at what it does but as it always did it struggles with offense which is gradually becoming a dominant play style, if it wasn't already. In general that's probably a fair assessment of Heatran in that its biggest woes come vs the playstyle that has become the most popular in the tier which means it isn't as good as it once was. Hope it drops but don't hold out much hope as there'll inevitably be a wave of "it's Heatran it can't possibly drop cos it's Heatran" posts without reasoning like there was last time.

 

[aceguy123]

Discussion points:

Hippowdon A+ -> A
Raikou A- -> A
Serperior A- -> A
Gothitelle B -> B+
Empoleon B -> B-

Open for business so happy posting

Hippowdon: Agree, it gets dropped by many mons pretty easily. Most of the top threats can muster past it.
Raikou: Disagree. Where has this thing gotten better? I still think that it is stopped relatively easily by grounds and high spdef mons.
Serperior: Agree, there is very little getting in the way of this beast.
Gothitelle: Strongly agree, honestly maybe A- rank this thing is completely broken in some cases but near useless in others.
Empoleon: Agree, especially since MSwamp is B now (still salty) Empoleon barely does anything. I wish this typing were on a better mon like MBlastoise or something.

 

[MANNAT]

I haven't posted in this thread lately, but I'm bored, so here we go.

A+ -> A: This makes a lot of sense and is kinda of overdue since Hippowdon is a huge momentum sapper, and with all the offensive ice, water, and grass types running around, it is forced to heal way too much and you really can be put at a disadvantage in many games because of how much momentum this thing gives away, and it needs to be on a high level of HP to check the things it is supposed to check anyways. However, Hippowdon is a really good electric check along with being a decent talonflame check (but not general birdspam since mega pinsir hits like a truck) along with setting up rocks for the team and having whirlwind so that things don't set up on it. Hippowdon suffers major 4MSS since it wants stone edge to check talon, whirlwind to stop setup sweepers, crunch to lure gengar/lati, and toxic to wear down mons in the last slot (eq/rocks/slack are needed). All in all it's a pretty good mon, but its common weaknesses and momentum losing are why it should go down to A rank.

A- -> A: Haven't used raik much lately, but cm sets seem to be rly good, and it can run toxic for grounds. Also, the Assault vest set can make a great electric/torn check and the specs set hits like a truck.

A- -> A: Serperior is really good right now, and it has a lot going for it. Most teams have water/ground/rock types quite commonly and serperior can steamroll teams quite easily after it gets the first leaf storm off. Many people say that Serp is weak, but if you bring it out on a water or ground type, then you basically get to +2 for free because they are either forced to switch out if they want to keep said mon, or they can sack their water/ground type that is basically setup fodder for serp. Serperior also can dismantle defensive teams with taunt sets because it stops stallmons from healing or wearing serp down with toxic. However, Serp has a few common checks and counters, and that is why it isn't A+ or S rank.

B -> B+: I don't use goth stall much so I'm not going to say much about this one, but it probably should rise since it beats some common answers to stall like tricking a scarf onti manaphy so that it can't beat blissey 1v1.

B -> B-: Another mon I don't use much, but it seems to be a solid lati switch in along with a cool useful defensive typing and being a defogger/rocker, so I'm going to say stays at B rank, especially since it has many utility options like roar, defog, rocks, etc.

A -> A-: You guys probably already know my position on this mon, but if you don't know, here it is (my reasoning there says that it should stay in A because of its strengths, but i understand it probably shouldn't go to A+ because of its weaknesses). Also, this post by user: Puralux shows some other merits megabro has to keep it in A rank:

I really think that this might be one of the most underrated threats (and bulky win conditions) out there. I disagree that regular calm mind slowbro can take 'the same' place but without taking up the mega slot. We have to count that regular Slowbro needs to be full defense, because if you invest a lot in spdef on the purpose of being stopped harder by things like his checks after one calm mind (slowbro mostly needs this), you will end up in being stopped by physical attackers, and you can not switch in some powerful physical attacks, unlike classic full def slowbro. Sure, you lose regenerator which is a very important ability for Slowbro; because of this, you need to know when it's the moment to mega evolve Slowbro (to keep your momentum), which in my opinion compensates the loss of Regenerator with his insane capability. While you will have a kind of disadvantage in terms of bulk when you keep normal Slowbro with Mega (SpDef) into his normal form to keep regenerator, Mega Slowbro can be a pain in the ass to deal with. His insane bulk allows to deal with both physical and special attackers. You will have over 400 points of physical defense with Mega Slowbro, even if you invest a lot in spdef. You will end up having a stupid, lazy and ignorant pokèmon which is impossible to even break his armor to kick his ass, even after one calm mind. Shell Armor will keep a safe spam of slack off as you don't fear critical hits, you can also choose to modify your Evs according to your weaknesses. Like slowbro, mega slowbro doesn't appreciate status, especially bad poison. Even if you try to status mega slowbro, it won't be enough to stop him from slaughter the opposing pokes by dint of boosted Scalds and Psyshocks. So even if you wear down mega slowbro thanks to status, or by other stuff, he has probably already done his task: destroy the opponent's team, or at least, a great portion. He has flaws, mostly due to the loss of regenerator, difficulty to recover if there are hazards and sometimes the obligation of sacking it, and these flaws might surely let Mega Slowbro unable to satisfy A+ or S rank even with these incredible capabilities, but nonetheless, it's surely worth for A rank.

B+ -> A-: I Don't rly use this much, but probably should rise since spore is guaranteed to cripple a non-grass mon, and the sand teams that are popping up more and more now get rekt by breloom's STAB combo. Technician boosted mach punch coming off of that attack stat hurts like a bitch, and it is an excellent revenge killer along with being a decent answer to all the darkspam that's happening rn.

A -> A-: It really should be below offensive starmie and latios since it is much weaker/doesn't have good coverage, but can be used defensively decently well, but is generally outclassed on the offensive teams it is used on in the role of offensive defogger. However, its defensive merits should keep it in A- along with the utility of healing wish.

 

[Vxy]

Raikou A- -> A: disagree. CM sets seem to be what everyone's talking about, and, having used it, I can say it's good. But like bludz said (or was it someone else? Idk), that's probably what's keeping Raikou in A- right now. It doesn't seem good enough to raise it to A. I don't get why an offensive team would ever want to give a free set-up opportunity to Charizard X unless they've got a Scarf Latios/Garchomp or something else that can revenge kill it because it's already hard for most offensive teams to manage. SubCM especially seems to drop something important, like Volt Switch, Shadow Ball (to hit Psychics) or HP Ice. CM Volt Switch sounds redundant to me because if you're in a late-game scenario where Raikou is meant to sweep why would you Volt Switch? AV is weak as hell although it's a good check to Electrics, and it's set up fodder for stuff you don't want to give a free turn to like Zard X, Mega Altaria, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, etc. Specs is super prediction reliant if there's a Ground type on the opposing team and is still pretty weak (can't even guarantee a 2HKO on Latias, for example). Decrease in Hippo for other Ground types like Garchomp and Landorus-T helps, but Ferrothorn is still common and Gyro breaks its subs. In my opinion, only the CM set actually pressures teams.

Serperior A- -> A: agree. It destroys Water and Ground types that are on like every team which is a helpful metagame trend for it. Also I don't get why people bring up that it's weak first turn; you're not supposed to send it in against, like, Ferrothorn or something, but something it threatens like Keldeo, Azumarill, Manaphy, Hippowdon, etc. And then there's also everything else people have mentioned before me, like its utility with Taunt, Knock Off, and Glare which can cripple switch-ins. It's also pretty hard to check at +2 because you have to know which HP it's running to send in your Heatran/Ferrothorn safely. Also, it's bulk isn't as bad as people are making it out to be :/ it's pretty decent and can live some pretty powerful attacks like LO HP Ice from Thundurus or Specs Secret Sword from Keldeo.

On another note, a nomination of my own, which I don't think is not allowed?

Tyranitar A -> A+: I don't see why this can't happen. The other offensive Dark types, Bisharp and Weavile, are in A+ and why can't Tyranitar be there? It's a better Pursuit trapper than both with a Scarf since it can actually switch into LO Dracos from Lati@s. It also provides cruical sand support to Excadrill which is really important because of how good Excadrill in sand is right now. It also adds a lot of role compression with just ONE set. Take the Stealth Rock set for example: it gives a hazard setter, sand setter, Pusruit trapper, lure (Ice Beam/Fire Blast or even Thunder Wave in the last slot if you want), an Electric check, Lati check, Weavile check (non-Low Kick), Talon check, and Tornadus-T check (non-Fighting type attack, obviously). Tyranitar also fits on all major playstyles with one set (Scarf), which is something I can't say for any other Pokemon off the top of my head. Offense likes it as a reliable Pursuit trapper for stuff like Keldeo and Zard Y, balance likes it for the same reason, and stall likes it as a Hoopa-U check (and possibly some others). Obviously rise of Breloom hurts it, but I think there are enough favourable metagame trends for it to rise, such as sand offense being really good and the rise of Electric types, as well as Dark typing in general being a nice offensive type to spam.

 

[Srn]

Hippowdon A+-->A
Nah, this thing does too much in the tier to drop if u ask me. Set rocks, check craploads of physical mons, and hard wall half of the relevant electric types in the tier (raikou/megaman, other half being thundy/rotomw imo) is just way too damn good. Then you throw in those sand balance builds with mana/clef/ferro/filler/hippo/exca that are just super super consistent and i just really don't see it dropping anytime soon. It just glues too many builds together to drop down to A.

Raikou A- --> A
Well it's not bad, that's for sure, with volt switch and good speed, along with the ability to clean with CM, but electric/ice coverage off of pretty pathetic base power only goes so far. in a meta filled with hazards and offense, its pivoting abilities as a fast electric type are highly valued, but that doesn't really cut it vs the bulkier shit, mostly due to hippowdon itself. It's unlikely that raikou will ever put in work against a team with hippo (of which there are quite a few (for good reason)).
Imo it's the same reason that latios isn't S, when you see ttar on the opposing field shit gets kinda difficult for it; similarly with raikou (altho to a much lesser extent as you're not trapped) it just has a difficult time vs common sand balance builds. Sets outside of CM are just sorta passive (Av) or incredibly prediction reliant (specs), cm is pretty much only viable set.
There are some pretty decent checks offense can run to this thing as well, mostly shit like serp and exca are pretty good at this. Overall, it's a threat on the level of shit at A- like M-pinsir and starmie

Serp A- --> A
It's by far the best mon in A-, so it probably oughta rise. It has several checks, like talon, torn-t, and weavile, all of which are common and viable, which makes life a little difficult for serp, but it does have access to glare to cripple those. Sub+Synthesis sets can actually beat a lot of its checks, and it's just a pretty fantastic balance breaker that's kinda fast in general. My only argument is that every build can run checks against it, whether it be talon on offense, av torn-t on balance, or amoonguss on stall; on paper, atleast, every team can pretty easily pack a solid check to serp and be fine against it. b/c of this, i'm sort of on the fence.

Mega slowbro A --> A-
I think the effectiveness of this guy is really being overshadowed, its simply massive defense stat literally invalidates physical attacks. This is not true of regular slowbro, as while you do not use up a mega slot, you are still very liable to physical pressure. Mega slowbro simply isn't. The damn bastard avoids a 2hko from +2 adamant char-x dclaw and that's all that really needs to be said about that.
However, the main and good reason for it to go down is because its really not that splashable. Its much easier, teambuilding wise, to just use cm slowbro with leftiez and slap on another mega instead of using mega bro, despite how much better of a cm'er it is. I'm pretty ok with it wherever it goes, i'd just like to point out that it's sort of slept on.

Breloom
B+ ---> A-
Mega lop is everywhere and that thing just getting ohko'd by LO mach punch from full is a blessing for offense, as is checking exca and bish and providing powerful prio in general. It's also pretty good at pressuring clefable/bulky chomp with LO bullet seed (both of which are stupidly popular), and it can keep almost any kind of build on its toes with spore (which it most certainly doesn't have to use turn 1. It's just a great offensive check to tons of relevant shit in the meta right now, the moment people stop using spore/bullet seed/mach/rock tomb w/sash and start using LO, it should rise in popularity. It's definitely an A- threat.

Latias
A ---> A-
Everybody knows about healing wish, but defensive defogging sets, with just max hp, do a pretty great job at checking electrics/waters/fightings/tons of other crap in general. Reflect type can avoid pursuit trapping, or you can feel free to even cm up. It's a very passive set but it's overlooked and healing wish's utility is super super good for lots of different set up mons and lot of mons in general as it really opens up your options and lets you play more recklessly. the bulk isn't really significant, as offensive power is much more appreciated. Tbh it fits in wherever, dont rly care where it ends up.

Goth/toge/empol used a little, not too much, no great opinion.

 

[Albacore]

I'm going to retract what I said about Breloom earlier and support it moving to A-. After playing around with it on the ladder, it is way more effective than I anticipated. From what I can tell, Breloom is supposed to be used really, really aggresively, and fits pretty well on balls-to-the-wall HO, although I don't have any evidence of it being good on more balanced teams. The flaws I pointed out are still there, most notably its reliance on prediction, and how difficult it is for it to checks faster threats and keep momentum going, however, it doesn't require quite as much prediction as I anticipated, and one correct prediction can turn the the battle in your favor in a big way, so from a risk/reward perspective it's usually got the advantage.

As long as you don't make it your sole check to stuff like Lopunny and Bisharp, you won't need to worry too much about keeping it alive to handle them, and that gives you way more freedom to Spore or just smack stuff silly with Bullet Seed. The presence on Tankchomp/Lando-T on offense as rock setters really benefits it too since those are pretty much free Spores for it. Not sure if I just happen to be facing teams that are weak to it, but it's been able to put stuff to sleep pretty consistently, and I've found myself using Mach Punch way less than I though I would, since most teams are going to be running at least one thing that is outsped by it, which it can easily prey on, and the threat of Mach Punch alone is usually enough to force things out.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-287328268 sample replay of it ruining a team with both Latios and Torn-T on it (I was kinda lower in the ladder but my opponent was in the 1800s fsr). I made a really ballsy play turn 1 which paid off massively, which is pretty much how you're supposed to use Breloom. Btw run LO>Sash, it deals so much more damage, and if you lead with it, a lot of people expect Sash and will attempt to "break" it anyway.

 

[Random Passerby]

That's probably because 99% of Breloom on the ladder are Sash variants (at least from what I faced).

Anyway, I feel I should chip in on some mons.


Hippowdon
Agree. While this thing checks some pretty dangerous threats such as Zard-X, Talonflame, Raikou, Mega Manectric, Excadrill, etc., it pretty much gives a free switch-in to Serperior, Kyurem-B and Water-types such as Manaphy. Pure Ground-typing also means Hippowdon relies a lot on its natural bulk instead of resistance and it is often under pressure to click Slack Off, killing your momentum. Running Will-O-Wisp on Talonflame / Zard-X, boosting up with Swords Dance on a predicted Slack Off or setting up with Power-up Punch allows its checks to actually overpower it. While it can still do its job, its ability is just not as good as before so a drop is alright.


Serperior

Agree with this. Serperior only really runs 2 moves, Leaf Storm and Dragon Pulse, causing you to guess what other moves it can potentially carry. Its a bit similar to BW2 Keldeo in the sense that it can pick its own checks / counters based on its choice of Hidden Power. However, Serperior does more than that because it forces you to play aggressively against it unless you want it to spiral out of control. It also has Glare to cripple checks such as Tornadus-T and Talonflame, prevent set-up with Taunt or heal up with Giga Drain / Synthesis. The one thing that holds it back is getting the first +2 (to be threatening) which is not that easy but a Serperior can come in on a Water-type or Ground-type ( such as Manaphy, Hippowdon, Rotom-W, Azumarill, etc.) and start accumulating boosts. The Coba Berry and Assault Vest variants also allow it to do something different from the standard LO / Miracle Seed.


Breloom

This Pokemon takes advantage of the popularity of bulky Grounds such as Hippowdon (again!), TankChomp, Excadrill, Bisharp and Mega Lopunny as it can either Spore stuff or revenge kill the pesky Excadrill / Mega Lop with Mach Punch. LO sets are also very hard to switch into outside of Mega Venusaur and Celebi, which are dropping in viability atm, allowing it to dismantle some defensive cores, particularly Sand Balance.


Latias

From my experience of using Latias, it just struggles in the metagame as while on paper, it checks Electrics, Keldeo and Zard-Y, it really struggles to do so in practice because of the popularity of Weavile, Bisharp, Tyranitar and AV Metagross, all of which checkmates it. Latias also hates being worn down by hazards and Scald burns, making you wish you run Roost, which you simply cannot afford to because it will cause you to drop one of Defog or Healing Wish. Latias's power output is also really disappointing as it gives free switch-ins to a lot of threats such as Clefable, Heatran, Scizor, and Tyranitar. While Latias does boast higher bulk than Latios, the bulk rarely comes into play as Latios has room to run Roost and it has higher damage output to punish Pursuiters or other switch-ins. As a hazard remover, Starmie is better than it and the only reason those two should be in the same rank should be Latias's higher bulk. Therefore, I believe Latias needs to drop.

 

[Costi]

Can i actually ask what changed for hippo to justify the drop?

I mean, all the consideration I'm reading could be made also a month ago and even earlier. The fact that it is a momentum killer, the fact that it has to keep an high amount of hp to check the threats that it is supposed to check, the fact that it is easily overwhelmed by pup Lop and such things.

I think that the metagame trend are going both favour and against it. The raise in popularity of Serperior is an issue, but Raikou and MManectric are becoming more and more popular and this is a good reason to use it over Chomp or lando as rock setter.

The role compression it offer is so good, and while in theory is overwhelmed by most setup phis attacker, in real game i find it to be still pretty effective as an answer to Bisharp, Talonflame and Mlopunny.

I can still see it dropping tho, mostly because how much momentum it kills, i just wanted to point out that all the flaws that we are bringing up were already well known flaws.

 

[AM]

Can i actually ask what changed for hippo to justify the drop?

I mean, all the consideration I'm reading could be made also a month ago and even earlier. The fact that it is a momentum killer, the fact that it has to keep an high amount of hp to check the threats that it is supposed to check, the fact that it is easily overwhelmed by pup Lop and such things.

I think that the metagame trend are going both favour and against it. The raise in popularity of Serperior is an issue, but Raikou and MManectric are becoming more and more popular and this is a good reason to use it over Chomp or lando as rock setter.

The role compression it offer is so good, and while in theory is overwhelmed by most setup phis attacker, in real game i find it to be still pretty effective as an answer to Bisharp, Talonflame and Mlopunny.

I can still see it dropping tho, mostly because how much momentum it kills, i just wanted to point out that all the flaws that we are bringing up were already well known flaws.

hippo arguably, hence why its up for debate now, shouldve dropped around that timeframe you are referring to. Thought I should clarify instead of just lurking here seeing as I may or may not gave a bit of a push for this to debate to happen when I was asked by some prior.

 

[Full_Korbe]

Just my two cents :

Serperior
It's ridiculous how versatile this thing with only something like 8 viable attacks. Thanks Hidden Power I guess.
Anyway, Serperior can be tailored for your team's needs, and he can easily checkmate his usual counters : Glare, Sub, HP Ground or Leech Seed are all viable options which really ruin its counters' day. My only concern is Leaf Storm, whose PP can easily be abused if you are not careful. I guess I always bring Serperior too soon, but when you want to lure an Heatran / Ferro + something, you quickly uses your Leaf Storms.
But yeah, solid A

Latias
It is weird : whenever I play here because I need a Defogger / Electric-check / Keldeo-check, it fails me. She can't check Manectric & co repeatedly without Roost or Lefties. With Lefties she is just too weak, and with Roost she misses Healing Wish which is truly unfortunate. She loses momentum too easily in my opinion because of her stabs (maybe I should not use D-Meteor) and more often than not, I just Defog then sacrifice myself. It's not that bad, but I wish I could do more with her.
All in all, I'm okay with dropping Latias to A-

I have one question though : why is M-Gallade so low compared to M-Medicham ? M-Gallade only loses in raw power (and Fake Out i guess) while he is bulkier, faster, has a better Fighting STAB and can set-up if needed.

 

[Arik]

Just my two cents :



I have one question though : why is M-Gallade so low compared to M-Medicham ? M-Gallade only loses in raw power (and Fake Out i guess) while he is bulkier, faster, has a better Fighting STAB and can set-up if needed.

Gallade has no real niche in the tier , Medicham is stronger than it , has dual priority which is devastating right now. Lopunny is faster than it and has power up punch to break fat squads and it reks offense by default. Knock off is it's only niche I suppose but that is not enough to be considered a top threat in the meta right now. Opportunity cost of using this over the other 2 is there.

 

[Punchshroom]

I have one question though : why is M-Gallade so low compared to M-Medicham ? M-Gallade only loses in raw power (and Fake Out i guess) while he is bulkier, faster, has a better Fighting STAB and can set-up if needed.

Mega Gallade's problem is that it is an awkward mix between MegaCham's sheer power and MLopunny's Speed. MegaCham's raw strength makes it by far the more efficient immediate attacker, which by extension makes MegaCham a more effective hit-and-run Pokemon; MGallade needs Swords Dance to really catch up, and setup opportunities are few and far between for it thanks to its less-than-stellar typing. MGallade does have a slight Speed advantage over MegaCham, but MLopunny's Speed is much more significant for harassing offense with. MLopunny also barely needs coverage moves, so it has much less trouble dealing solid damage to teams (especially those with Mega Sableye) while MGallade usually needs to predict or face 4MSS when it comes to hitting things. The fact that both of those Megas can Fake Out to safely MEvolve while putting even more pressure on opponents doesn't help matters.

 

[imsosorrylol]

Hippowdon: Agree, it gets dropped by many mons pretty easily. Most of the top threats can muster past it.
Raikou: Disagree. Where has this thing gotten better? I still think that it is stopped relatively easily by grounds and high spdef mons.
Serperior: Agree, there is very little getting in the way of this beast.
Gothitelle: Strongly agree, honestly maybe A- rank this thing is completely broken in some cases but near useless in others.
Empoleon: Agree, especially since MSwamp is B now (still salty) Empoleon barely does anything. I wish this typing were on a better mon like MBlastoise or something.

Define high sp def mons, because if you're talking about mons like clefable and ferrothorn, they are setup fodder for the Raikou's SubCM set, which is the best set right now imo.

 

[Slayerblade]

Nominating Tangrowth from B to B+

With the ability to check virtually every Water/Ground and Electric, Tangrowth is a very good alternative to Mega Venusaur on balance teams.

With Regenerator it is very hard to wear down and is extremely difficult to OHKO

It's also customizable fuck and has diverse array of moves like Rock Slide/EQ that allow it to pick its counters. Rock Slide fucks Talon and Zard. EQ for Heatran. HP fucks Scizo/Ferro

 

[D_what]

View attachment 52038

Nominating Tangrowth from B to B+

With the ability to check virtually every Water/Ground and Electric, Tangrowth is a very good alternative to Mega Venusaur on balance teams.

With Regenerator it is very hard to wear down and is extremely difficult to OHKO

It's also customizable fuck and has diverse array of moves like Rock Slide/EQ that allow it to pick its counters. Rock Slide fucks Talon and Zard. EQ for Heatran. HP fucks Scizo/Ferro

I like Tangrowth a lot, I do. But all of that stuff is stuff it's always done. What makes it particularly effective lately?

 

[Clair]

I like Tangrowth a lot, I do. But all of that stuff is stuff it's always done. What makes it particularly effective lately?

The increasingly offensive trend of the meta obviously benefits it (particularly increases in Electrics and sand offense), since it's dead weight against stall and even some balances. I've also seen some more offensive Tang sets lately (Specs, even Life Orb), so that's a possible factor in a rise.

 

[p2]

time for some of my own noms

Klefki to A.

Klefki is actually one of the best mons on offense ever, it's the best offensive spiker in the tier and comes with unmatched role compression, it functions as a fairy switch in, lati switch in, mega zam check, rain check (kinda), spiker (keep in mind it doesn't autolose to sab which is huge), speed controller, and is even capable of suicide trapping a bunch of shit and if you've ever used a Mega Beedrill team or contact spam team, you'll know why Fairy Lock Klefki is an absolute godsend for those teams. It's insanely splashable on offense right now and coupled with all the breakers, it just makes them infinitely more threatening.

Jirachi to A.

Another really splashable Steel type on most team archetypes. One of the best offensive answers to the likes of Mega Gardevoir w/ Scarf and it's an awesome mon on bulkier teams where legitimate Gardevoir counter are almost non existent, yeah it can get Wisped, but it's still capable of coming in on it and scaring it out, picking up more hazard damage on it, putting it into range for something else, still doing its job in weakening massive threats. Garchomp and Scizor popularity is annoying for it though because its forced to choose between Ice and Fire Punch but the other mon is something that should easily be covered with team support anyway. It still bullshits wins with Iron Head and is definitely better than A- mons.

Breloom to A-.

This isn't one of my own noms, but Breloom is really good right now. Sand has stupidly high usage, Mega Venusaur usage isn't that high, and the likes of Latis, Talonflame, and Torn-T aren't able to switch in easily because Rock Tomb screws them over so much. It really pressures offensive builds right now because not much can handle Grass + Fighting + Rock coverage all boosted by Technician coming off 130 Atk, and given that offense is really solid right now, Breloom is just such a scary mon to face because nothing safely switches into it.

Metagross to B-.

This thing is so good because it's a Pursuit trapper that has really solid bulk and doesn't just get owned by Fairies. Its really good along the likes of Venusaur because it covers so much more that Tyranitar and Bisharp aren't capable of hard switching into Gardevoir and actually being able to stomach hits from stuff like MegaZam. MGross is just a really underrated trapper in general and is pretty splashable on bulky offense and has its niches to separate itself from Tyranitar, Weavile, and Bisharp.

Some other things on my mind are Azumarill and Keldeo to S and Rotom-H to C+, but I'll get around to those later.

 

[bludz]

I supported Klefki to A at one point but I don't really any more. I think the issue with Klefki is twofold;

First, while it does check a lot of threats, it often does not have a way to touch many of them outside of Thunder Wave. This means that electric types are almost a free switch-in to Klefki, and can proceed to start firing off attacks, or set up (NP Thund / CM Raikou). Since electric types are kind of a bitch for offense to check already, Klefki's niche as a spiker on offense is kind of exacerbating this problem. It also means that Klefki cannot reliably check things like Sub DD Gyarados and is also setup fodder for SD Gliscor (underrated right now) and Rain Dance variants of Manaphy.

Second, while it has great versatility in team options, this also leads to it having one of the worst 4MSS in the tier among support pokemon. No Toxic is free setup for electrics / switchin for Hippo, no Flash Cannon means it doesn't even check Diancie at all (which in fact cock blocks it entirely then), and no Magnet Rise means it can't set up on things like Garchomp reliably at all. Without Foul Play, things like SD Chomp / Lando are bound to set up and get a kill.

It's a nice support pokemon, but it isn't really all that splashable when you realize the weaknesses (Excadrill, electrics, Sableye stall) it can exacerbate for offensive teams. It also can't keep up Spikes very well against Starmie or Excadrill, two of the more common hazard removers in the tier.

Leaning toward a Breloom raise but I want to play test it more, and while Jirachi / Metagross are good I'm not sure what has gotten better for them lately. I guess the fact that they check Mega Gardevoir / Mega Diancie which punish bad team building is pretty nice, but I don't have a strong opinion on their rank at the moment.

 

[Froppe]

Amoonguss B- --> B

Making a new nomination - Amooguss has always been a viable defensive Pokemon in OU, and it's high time she goes up. To quote, "Amoonguss is so reliable at stopping a lot of dangerous threats without investing in a M-Venu", not to mention the rising usage of electric types has only increased Amoonguss' viability as she checks/counters all of them barring Overheat M-Manectric to the ground (Flamethrower does not even 2HKO with Rocks on specially defensive ones). She also checks the common Sand offense now in her ability to threaten them with Spore, something M-Venu is more hard pressed to do since it gets 2HKO'd from LO Exca at worst and can't really retaliate hard other than Giga Drain.

Whilst she doesn't check or counter as many other threats as M-Venu does due to her lack of a Fire/Ice neutrality, she makes up for it by having access to a 100% sleep as well as the ability to heal off damage without wasting turns and thus preserving momentum. She's also far from being set up fodder thanks to Foul Play/Clear Smog, and her STAB Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb does a decent chunk too to most 'mons neutral to it.

And although it's just an afterthought, the usual Amoonguss holding a Black Sludge also allows her to put a timer on Gothitelles trying to Trickscarf her.

 

[SaberSeven]

Amoonguss B- --> B

Making a new nomination - Amooguss has always been a viable defensive Pokemon in OU, and it's high time she goes up. To quote, "Amoonguss is so reliable at stopping a lot of dangerous threats without investing in a M-Venu", not to mention the rising usage of electric types has only increased Amoonguss' viability as she checks/counters all of them barring Overheat M-Manectric to the ground (Flamethrower does not even 2HKO with Rocks on specially defensive ones). She also checks the common Sand offense now in her ability to threaten them with Spore, something M-Venu is more hard pressed to do since it gets 2HKO'd from LO Exca at worst and can't really retaliate hard other than Giga Drain.

Whilst she doesn't check or counter as many other threats as M-Venu does due to her lack of a Fire/Ice neutrality, she makes up for it by having access to a 100% sleep as well as the ability to heal off damage without wasting turns and thus preserving momentum. She's also far from being set up fodder thanks to Foul Play/Clear Smog, and her STAB Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb does a decent chunk too to most 'mons neutral to it.

And although it's just an afterthought, the usual Amoonguss holding a Black Sludge also allows her to put a timer on Gothitelles trying to Trickscarf her.

The problem with Amoonguss is that it's very passive in a fast paced metagame. The access to Spore is nice for crippling a threat, but once something is asleep, another threat is free to attack. Common threats in the meta that can handle Amoonguss include: Talonflame (ESPECIALLY Stallbreaker Talonflame), Tornadus-T, Hoopa-Unbound, Gliscor, both Mega Charizards, Heatran (Taunt Magma Storm Heatran is VERY much a thing), SubCM Raikou which is on the rise, Mega Metagross, Mega Sableye who bounces back Spore, and so on. Amoonguss does serve well as a Keldeo/Azumarill counter (2 prominent threats in the meta), but that and its access to Spore is what's keeping it at B-.

 

[Froppe]

The problem with Amoonguss is that it's very passive in a fast paced metagame. The access to Spore is nice for crippling a threat, but once something is asleep, another threat is free to attack. Common threats in the meta that can handle Amoonguss include: Talonflame (ESPECIALLY Stallbreaker Talonflame), Tornadus-T, Hoopa-Unbound, Gliscor, both Mega Charizards, Heatran (Taunt Magma Storm Heatran is VERY much a thing), SubCM Raikou which is on the rise, Mega Metagross, Mega Sableye who bounces back Spore, and so on. Amoonguss does serve well as a Keldeo/Azumarill counter (2 prominent threats in the meta), but that and its access to Spore is what's keeping it at B-.

All of those threats save for Heatran & arguably Gliscor also manhandles M-Venusaur, a 'mon that takes up a mega slot and is currently A rank. Amoonguss can also handle SubCM Raikou to a degree as uninvested Sludge Bomb is enough to remove Subs and Raikou 4HKOs with HP Ice. And unlike M-Venusaur, Amoonguss does not need to waste turns for (weather dependable) healing, which you can argue cuts back on momentum even further.

 

[EraiMHFU]

All of those threats save for Heatran & arguably Gliscor also manhandles M-Venusaur, a 'mon that is currently A rank. Amoonguss can also handle SubCM Raikou to a degree as uninvested Sludge Bomb is enough to remove Subs and Raikou 4HKOs with HP Ice. And unlike M-Venusaur, Amoonguss does not need to waste turns for (weather dependable) healing, which you can argue cuts back on momentum even further.

I've faced amoongus just right now, is damn bulky, but like Dallasboi said, the metagame is too fast paced, and Amoongus typing doesnt help either, at least M-Venu gets thick fat wich solves Fire and Ice, it also faces competition from Breloom, his offensive cousin, and it actually is far better, better speed lets you put to sleep TankChomp, Defensive Lando, Scizor, Speed tie with Metagross before Mega, and Rock Tomb lets him outspeed Base 115 after lowering Speed, it also is able to check some relevant threats like M-Lopunny, Weavile and Bisharp.

My point is that the Meta is too offensive atm, and that gives Breloom better chances to outshine(not outclass) Amoongus.

Edited

 

[Vert]

serperior is pretty broken right now. can lure any of its counters with hidden power making it extremely useful to teambuilding. multiple sets like taunt + synthesis stallbreaker, assault vest, glare + 3 attacks, and substitute makes it unpredictable and can end a lot of teams. move it to a

breloom is stupid. it just spores and spams its stabs which are ridiculously hard to switch in to. i've lost to it a crap load of times. my opinion is the only opinion. move it to a-

av metagross is pretty hot right now with all the clefs and m-gards. traps latis and makes a name for itself on many heavy offense builds running keldeo or zardy. move it to b.

that shuca berry empoleon is enough to keep it in its rank. checks a bunch of stuff and defogs. simple mon that is really nice for offense. the only problem is how zone bait it is.

keys shouldn't move up, look at bludz's post.

latias is trash. it just sits there with its weak stabs and clicks healing wish. not enough warrant over latios which pretty much gets a kill every time based off your coverage and still checks electrics and keldeo quite nicely. starmie is better than latias tbh and that's not a good thing.

m-banette is some sweet candy i got this halloween. shadow sneak rks a bunch of stuff and gunk shot hits hard af. wisp + dbond are cool utility. the latter move puts less pressure on teambuilding. i think it can go to c+

raikou is lol. amazing speed tier and checks like half the metagame. cm is easily its best set with a million variations that can lure so many things (extra = venu, hp grass = quag, shadow = latis + cele). specs is another baller set. craps on bulky offense which seems like to be the most common style while breaking balance. hippowdon gets 2hkoed with prior damage. av is pathetic, don't use it

that is all